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1:00 PM
I know there is no Object Equivalent in C++. But that doesent mean you cant build your own generic supertype in order for type erasure to be safe.
 
void* :P
 
@CatPlusPlus aliasing via char* is fine, but std::vector<int> v; reinterpret_cast<std::vector<char* > >(v); is something else
 
He's not doing that.
 
wouldn't you be rinsikng to a null pointer assigment then ?
 
@CatPlusPlus He was when I last read it
 
1:02 PM
I don't see anything like that in any revision.
 
@CatPlusPlus Mmm. I must have read it wrong. I still think the code is utterly broken, absent any valid reason to not use any of the existing idioms
 
@LeandroArielPezzente type miss match
 
@LeandroArielPezzente What.
 
@thecoshman car metaphors are important.
 
1:05 PM
@thecoshman And typo's. Of the horrible variety that render the analogy incomprehensible. Not that it matters, because ... the point is just to shout. So, leave it as is
 
a Type missmatch , you are right.
 
@sehe I see one...
 
@thecoshman That's a start. Also, who says there should be more? One was obviously enough to wreck the sentence :)
 
Can I just jump and scream like a teenage girl ?
 
@sehe I know :'(
@LeandroArielPezzente sure you can betsy
 
1:11 PM
I get a little bit sassy from time to time.
 
You ain't seen nothing yet
 
Thats why i dispise elitism so much.
 
@sehe I doubt you have seen much for a long time, what with your hand in front of your face :P
@LeandroArielPezzente ¬_¬ are you implying there is elitism here?
 
@LeandroArielPezzente weehoo
22 hours ago, by Leandro Ariel Pezzente
Everyday i thank god developers really dislike elitism
 
sometimes singletons make OK sense
 
1:14 PM
22 hours ago, by Leandro Ariel Pezzente
@sehe Hahaha , yeap , it was sarcasm all along. I just that that i was being plain obvious. Sorry about that.
 
like a sound manager class for a game
 
in PHP, 27 mins ago, by tereško
static classes enjoy as much polymorphism as plain functions
 
@thecoshman Hahahahahaha nawwwwww why would you think that ?
 
A.k.a. "I know only one form of polymorphism but nevermind!"
@AgainstASicilian No.
@AgainstASicilian Double no.
 
1:15 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente something about fucks, and not giving any...
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Because he, too, like me, has a massively failing sarcasm/irony detector
 
I can see why you're not a programmer.
 
plenty of game devs usesingletons
 
@sehe I do? well fuck me backwards
 
successful ones, too
 
1:16 PM
Plenty of game devs write shitty code.
Especially successful ones.
 
@AgainstASicilian plenty of people use crutches
 
well considering i've actually had this discussion with successful game devs who write good code, I'll stick with the reality
 
professional code tends towards being shit
 
@AgainstASicilian Pletnty of game devs suck at life
 
The only Elitism I like is IQ Elitism. The ones why the higher IQ calls the orders.
 
1:17 PM
We had one successful game dev use std::list, and then switch to array and be all like "OOH THIS IS SO MUCH FASTER STL SUCKS".
 
when time is short, quality gets cut
 
well let me ask you then: why do you think people use singletons?
 
Singletons have no place in good code.
 
there's obviously a benefit
 
I believe it was std::vector
 
1:17 PM
They hinder testability.
They hinder readability.
 
even if just ease/speed of implementation
 
They hide dependencies.
 
@CatPlusPlus especially stupid?
 
They're ugly hack.
There is no fucking benefit.
 
i take it you are an OOP purist?
 
1:18 PM
No.
 
@AgainstASicilian irrelevant
 
depending on the medium, some forms of code are better than others
 
yet it's so hard to convince people of this
 
They use singletons because the GOF made a book that included the pattern, which made it Holy Writ.
 
I liked you better when you were on my ignore list.
 
1:18 PM
@sehe not really; plenty of people bash singletons for not being proper OOP due to hiding of dependencies and that... i forgot its name, single principle?
basically "why are you limiting something to a single instance? that's just silly"
 
I thougth protection via obscurity was a common practice.
 
@AgainstASicilian has nothing to do with OOP. Decoupling exists in functional programming style just the same
@LeandroArielPezzente haha
 
We limit plenty of things to a single instance without using singletons.
 
@thecoshman spɹɐʍʞɔɐq noʎ ʞɔnɟ
 
@LeandroArielPezzente security through obscurity is the stupidest idea since PHP
 
1:19 PM
in game development, for example, people use singletons when it's easier than passing crap around all over the place like sound management
 
@CatPlusPlus you talking to me??
 
@sehe (╯°□°)╯︵ fuck you backwards
 
even the Stage, which is a Flash-centric concept, is a singleton
 
oh, that's better
 
I bash against final keyword but , then again , sometimes it is useful.
 
1:20 PM
it's useful a lot
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Java final?
 
@keith.layne No.
 
yes, it is
 
Thank God for that.
 
@thecoshman yeap , Java's final or C#'s sealed ...
 
1:21 PM
simply saying "no no no" without offering any real argument doesn't exactly help your case, lol
anyway
 
@AgainstASicilian Flash stage! What is this sorcery?
 
@keith.layne But Heritance is a fundamental OOP principle.
 
heritance?
 
inheritance
 
1:22 PM
hint: c++ is not all about OO
 
@AgainstASicilian Show me your arguments. Other than 'you must be OOP bigots'. Pretty much the only thing you offered is: singletons exist in frameworks. That's why. Convincing, that
 
@sehe ..... I just did above
 
you are right , inheritance , sorry .
 
Because framework authors are the greeetest programmers ever.
 
@AgainstASicilian Why is a static function not equivalent?
 
1:23 PM
You didn't know that, @sehe?
 
booyah
 
Especially in Java.
 
@sehe I gave an example of a sound management class. sound is something ubiquitous -- application-wide, and it's something you don't need more than one of
 
not if you're deaf
 
@AgainstASicilian Why is a static function not equivalent?
 
1:24 PM
@sehe a static function is equivalent in certain contexts; in something like Flash it means you have to embed things in a different way and it changes runtime
 
I say again, we have one and only one of many things without using singletons.
 
singletons should rarely be used because of how easily abused they are
but it makes no sense to say "no, never!"
 
what was the book about policy-based design in c++?
 
I know very little about PHP , but it does seems to have a weird object model. Like , I dont know , like , messy Object and Structured programming spaghetti paradigm.
 
Yoda is apparently only worth $2 / hour. what-if.xkcd.com/3
 
1:26 PM
I had been looking forward to reading it, and was really disappointed that like half the book was about singletons. sigh
 
@AgainstASicilian Huh. Since when does 'we'd have to do things differently' constitute an argument for one or the other option? Obviously, they are different, or there would be nothing to choose about it
 
@sehe Do you work?
There are times when OOP purism is a detriment
and it doesn't make good business sense
 
you're lost
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Java's 'fianl' keyword is a useless pile of shit
 
@thecoshman You need it for closures.
Because the great minds behind Java and singletons are incompetent hacks.
 
@thecoshman I agree with that. It's against OOP Fundamentals.
 
99% of the time they can be replaced, but there are times when they make sense and are reasonable
 
@LeandroArielPezzente What.
 
@CatPlusPlus is that so ¬_¬
 
and at times beneficial
 
1:28 PM
@AgainstASicilian Huh. Yeah. Why
 
people just dislike the "global nature" of them
 
well, I am raging on final variables, it's pointless and stupid and serves no purpose
 
@AgainstASicilian Making a singleton is more work and it generates more work. It doesn't make business sense.
 
I haven't seen beneficial singleton in my life.
No, we dislike fucking singleton nature of them.
 
@CatPlusPlus In the sense that , if you get OOP Purist , you should be able to inherite from every supertype.
 
1:30 PM
If you want to use a global, use a damn global.
 
@sehe untrue; it doesn't require passing things around from function to function or module to module. it's easily portable and is far less work because to access it, it's treated like a global, application-wide object
 
It won't be much better anyway.
 
explain to me how it is more work, please
 
Also, you're an incompetent hack, too.
 
There's no need to be an ass
 
1:31 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente Um, that's not the only use of 'final'
 
Just because someone disagrees with you over a programming concept
 
He means its more hassle to test and proof propper inner workings.
 
@AgainstASicilian Freaking hell. What are you offsetting this to? public class X { public static void Instance getInstance(); } is completely equivalent. No need to prevent new Instance and the likes. Hell, just use an interface to hide the implementation. No need to prevent more instances.
 
ooooh, 100k line xml file, this will be fun :P
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Oh, that other final.
 
1:32 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente It's more of a hassle if we're talking about, say, unit testing and something's wrong with it, sure. It's hidden from the public interface, but for people who, say, make multiple games where time is sensitive, it makes sense to use something that only requires one line to use
 
@thecoshman why. do you anticipate problems with that <gasp/>
 
Sometimes "as long as it works" is enough for short-term use programs
 
@AgainstASicilian I have to deal with fucking singletons more than I'd like because of people like you.
 
they have their uses
 
And it's never good.
 
1:32 PM
@CatPlusPlus Unless you deal with something that has a short lifespan, I sincerely doubt it. Besides, I'm not a developer
 
It's always a pain in the ass.
 
Although I know how to code, sure
 
Yeah, I can see why you're not a developer.
No, you don't.
 
their main use is as impetus to educate people...by force.
 
And yet I probably make (literally) twenty+ times your salary. I guess I know nothing.
 
1:33 PM
@keith.layne :)
 
@sehe I want to make a wee tool to help visualise the contents better, I have never dealt with these files before :P so its a lot of now shit to have to get my head around
 
I don't give a fuck about your salary.
 
Just because Unit Testing and IOC are sooooo rareeeeeee this days .....
 
@AgainstASicilian Irrelevant. We're discussing the merits of Singletons
 
@LeandroArielPezzente That more, "if you're an OOP stupid".
 
1:33 PM
It's totally irrelevant to any skill you might have.
 
My point is that you're being an ass for no reason and aren't listening to valid counterpoints because of your ego, Cat
 
Which you don't.
WHAT VALID COUNTERPOINTS GODDAMMIT.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente unit testing is rare?
 
@Sehe and I gave a good reason why a singleton is defensible. They're easy to use, portable, reusable, leverage different embeds in certain frameworks, and that's plenty of good reason
 
@CatPlusPlus And any skill you might have is totally irrelevant to the merit of Singletons
 
1:34 PM
You're spewing some BLAH BLAH about crappy code because you talked to GREAT GAME DEV or something.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes final classes are useful in the sense that you prevent your inner logic implementation from being altered.
@keith.layne I was being sarcastic.
 
? portable ?! GAME OVER
'leverage different embeds' - hot air
'certain frameworks' - speciousness
 
AHahaha, reusable singletons.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, that's ad hominem. I'm giving you a good reason why singletons are used in certain contexts and you're just ignoring it
 
Plenty of bogus there
 
1:35 PM
You've never seen a singleton.
 
A sound manager class is a widely-used example
 
Oh, you know what, fuck you.
Plonk.
 
high five
 
are you actually going to address arguments or just hide behind your ego some more? lol
 
@AgainstASicilian Wut? You bring your salary into this, and now we play ad-hominem?
 
1:35 PM
pathetic
 
Reusable singletons , not thats ironic.
 
I should have done that 2 days ago.
 
has this been going on that long?
 
@sehe Technically, CatPlusPlus took this to personal attacks first and implied incompetence. The salary response is my way of saying "Uh, I must be doing something right here..."
 
@AgainstASicilian Good for you
 
1:36 PM
Before that it was a simple discussion about singletons
Nobody has actually addressed my points yet
 
In what sense a database connection singleton class is reusable ?
 
Oh there was me it was just a single discussion about simpletons
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Not all singletons are necessarily reusable
But some are and make good sense to build that way
 
@AgainstASicilian salary tends to be inversely proportional to ability to actually do useful things, let along do things right.
 
Don't bother, guys. This guy keeps raising very specific points in invisible ink nobody sees. We only get to read the generic babbling. We can't argue with him because of technical difficulties. Better not even try it.
 
1:37 PM
@SamDeHaan That's just demonstrably untrue
 
@AgainstASicilian Well, join the party. You never actually addressed any of mine either. But that was probably because you're too busy being defensive
 
@AgainstASicilian ...have you seen CEO salaries?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ignoring a point doesn't make you right
 
@AgainstASicilian Plonk
 
@sehe I did address yours. I agree that most of the time, singletons can be removed as code smells
 
1:38 PM
@sehe ¬_¬ took your time
 
AgainstaSic I am not against singletons , but then again , they have a point in that its almost impossible to test.
 
You guys have got some serious ego management problems, lol
 
He can't hear you
 
jeeeee-sus
 
@AgainstASicilian You failed to give an example where it couldn't. Referring to 'framework X, Y, Z use it and are userfriendly' doesn't count, since they could be more (or equally) userfriendly without singletons
 
1:39 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente They are impossible to test, most of the time, due to their very nature of being "hidden"
 
You have to try to be objective. The pros and the cons.
 
@sehe I quite literally gave you a strong example that you have yet to address. Ignoring it, again, does not make your stance stronger
What is simpler than a single line call?
 
AgainstASic security by obscurity issue again. Just like final classes in Java.
 
I've updated recommended response.
 
@CatPlusPlus link
 
1:40 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente We're talking about contexts where programs are technically short life span
 
I've learned the hard way to stay out of such discussions ¬_¬
 
@AgainstASicilian Remind me. Was it the 'Stage' thing, or the 'portable' thing? The 'leverage different embeds' thing? The 'certain frameworks' thing? Or, maybe 'you have to embed things in a different way'?
 
@sehe That too
but that's more of a minor point
 
@AgainstASicilian Another single line call. Hell, even the same singleline call.
 
1:41 PM
@sehe You don't earn enough money to know anything.
 
@AgainstASicilian All of those were vague, or empty statements.
 
@sehe You need a better screen to be able to read it. And bigger salary to buy it.
 
So really, stop trying. You lost at life. You don't earn money.
 
@sehe It's not a vague or empty statement...
 
Money is knowledge.
2
 
1:42 PM
Its a miracle I havent got there with just a few logins in here.
 
I don't earn money. I just deserve it.
 
@CatPlusPlus "brown list" is an amazing concept.
 
If your goal is to code things quickly (that work) it helps to not need to waste time with stuff you don't need to worry about
 
You deserve nothing, you poor know-nothing.
 
it's like how you don't have to "worry about" memory management in Python
 
1:42 PM
Although I think Martinho already hates me.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente What?
Why?
FTR, I don't.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente You have to be really special to get there.
 
I don't know why I would.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hates everybody. He's just a douchebag in general. :)
 
just because i a noob.
 
1:43 PM
Nope, that's cool.
 
@AgainstASicilian tSo, you don't waste time forcibly making a class a singelton, and just use a static instance (with a static accessor if you insist). End of story
 
If you were a noob that earned twenty times my salary, I might hate you.
2
 
There aren't that many people in the history of that room who earned their place in there
 
@sehe I gave you a reason why a static instance, in certain contexts, doesn't make as much sense
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Now, now, you can't be a noob and earn twenty times your salary.
 
1:44 PM
You can almost always translate a singleton to a static but sometimes it results in performance/execution-level differences
 
@CatPlusPlus Do I need to present evidence?
 
Everybody with a salary makes infinitely times as much as I do.
 
@AgainstASicilian Remind me?
3 mins ago, by sehe
@AgainstASicilian Remind me. Was it the 'Stage' thing, or the 'portable' thing? The 'leverage different embeds' thing? The 'certain frameworks' thing? Or, maybe 'you have to embed things in a different way'?
 
Everyone knows that earning twenty times your salary is a sign of being the best programmer in the world.
 
Yes, the nature of embeds
 
1:45 PM
So your statement is contradictory.
 
Everyone with a job makes more than i do.
 
@CatPlusPlus Looks like the salary comment hit a nerve, lol.
 
@AgainstASicilian Wonder why
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Nope. I have a job and make zero.
 
Hubris is a fun word.
 
1:45 PM
A nerve. Yeah, it hit the meme-making nerve.
 
@AgainstASicilian The salary comment made you look like a complete idiot, especially because it's not the first time you've used it as a reason why you're credible.
 
People who think money matters are funny.
 
I wish I had a job , at least , that would make my gf happier.
 
@SamDeHaan Blame CPP for taking it to a personal-attack level for literally no reason.
 
Well, except when they try to act as an authority.
 
1:46 PM
All we were doing before that was discussing the pros/cons of singletons
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Because it would mean you had to leave the house every now and then?
 
Then they're just annoying.
 
@keith.layne Hubris would be like a Hub of Debris ?
 
@sehe Zing.
 
Yeah, come to think of it, I work in a game lab, and these jokers have/are finishing PhDs and can't program for shit. And they all use Java.
 
1:46 PM
@AgainstASicilian That didn't happen, except in your imagination.
 
@SamDeHaan Uhhhh. Logs say differently, buddy.
 
@AgainstASicilian Forgetting about the subject again? Any time I ask for substance, you (a) hand wave guesture (b) forget about it
 
@sehe Yes , And because it would mean she can dream of becoming a 100% housewife.
 
I'm not your buddy, pal
 
@sehe I already gave you plenty of good points. You've ignored them thus far.
If you're going to handwave them away then there's no point in continuing this discussion
I agree that most of the time, they're a code smell
But to imply they're always a code smell is disadvantageous because there are contexts for which they have their upsides
 
1:48 PM
Oh, look, still going on about that.
The thing is, they're not good points.
 
@AgainstASicilian That's sooooo funny. Buy a mirror. And use it.
 
@AgainstASicilian "Yeah, I can see why you're not a developer." is a personal attack? Is your skin made of paper mache?
 
@keith.layne I actually love Java , but I admit C++ is far superior and less restricting , besides , it is has more coding responsability.
 
And yes, please stop talking about things you know nothing about TIA.
 
@SamDeHaan Moving the goalposts.
 
1:49 PM
@AgainstASicilian +1 Truth in that
 
@keith.layne The diamond of death is about being responsible after all.
 
that and propper documentation-
 
You know what's the downside of all this?
 
That we can't just kick back and relax in the Lounge?
 
1:52 PM
That we don't earn 20 times as much money?
 
That it's way too easy to hit nerves? ;)
 
Innocent users that get blessed with a green identicon will immediately generate, at least until one reads their name, a negative reaction.
 
Ow. Don't remind me. I'm trying to pick my selfesteem from the ground as we speak
 
@CatPlusPlus The funny part is that he earns 20 times the amount of money we do, buuut can't pay off small student loans. (crazy, it's like we can see his questions on finance. OMG, we're probably hackers)
 
The only nerve you hit is "annoying idiot detected" nerve.
 
1:52 PM
@AgainstASicilian not if you don't have any
 
That no ones makes a propper class inheritance diagram in docs ?
 
@SamDeHaan That's right
 
@SamDeHaan Lol.
He's clearly a financial expert by now, what with the massive amounts of money he earns.
 
way, way, way too easy in here
 
I might have gone mad! I'm voluntarily dealing with JS and XML
 
1:54 PM
@SamDeHaan Well, twenty times zero is still zero.
 
FYI, I'm mocking you, because you don't seem to get that your salary means nothing.
 
and I have no idea how much data I can throw at this before it start to cry about it
 
@thecoshman On behalf of the entire lounge a.t.m.: we envy you!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Serious question; what do you do? I know you mentioned you work but with 0 earnings?
 
envy?
 
1:55 PM
@thecoshman Just read the backlog
 
Don't bother. I don't want to socialize with you.
 
Must have hit another nerve... perhaps it's not by choice
 
oh, because you are foolishly trying to talk sense into idiots?
 
And still doesn't get it.
 
1:57 PM
@thecoshman I'm not. I've learned my lesson the other day. This guy is only worthy for laughing at. Anything else is wasted.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Considering nobody's actually given a good counterargument to the one instance for which I gave an example, I'd say otherwise
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes he's worth even that? you are a generous soul
 
I don't care. I didn't see your famous example. And I wasn't even taking part in that discussion.
 
it's like when these weird purists get into the whole "derp C++ is superior to java!11" type arguments. reeks of fanboyism
Harder to just admit that no one rule in programming is necessarily absolute
some weird programmer ego thing
 
Lol.
You're adorable.
 

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