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6:00 PM
I should start using clog to confuse and annoy people.
 
Please don't.
 
@CatPlusPlus Does Windows have clog?
 
Mwahahaha.
 
@rubenvb It's standard.
 
What.
What does OS have to do with it.
 
6:00 PM
It's standardly worthless.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well... if Windows don't have it, it don't have it...
 
I use printf for floating point because it is easy to set precision with it
not sure if that's bad practice
 
right
 
the whole message catalog thing is also std
only with windows, it's completely unimplemented thus useless.
 
@rubenvb It's the standard error stream, except buffered.
 
6:01 PM
What message catalog?
 
@CatPlusPlus next thing you know , you are putting binary files into your SQL engine ...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought that that was std::cerr?
 
@rubenvb clog is useless by design.
 
cerr is stderr without buffering. clog is stderr with buffering.
 
oh
 
6:02 PM
@CatPlusPlus Bloop bloop.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Beep beep.
 
Wait, are you talking about "Pole Ghosts"?
 
I've wanted to play Zak McKracken again for a long time now, but I'm too lazy. I think I'm just gonna watch the Longplay on YouTube :)
 
Ell
hi guys
 
6:04 PM
@CatPlusPlus Where do you get all these smileys?
 
@CatPlusPlus I saw it when I was patching libc++, lemme get the function names.
 
The best forum on the Internet.
 
clog?
 
It clogs the tubes.
 
6:05 PM
@CatPlusPlus 22.4.7
 
Better than clogging the pubes, I guess.
 
I have no clue wtf the message catalog thing is, but it's UNIX or POSIX or whatever
 
Oh, C++'s l10n.
It's probably as borked as locale stuff.
 
I little to no motivation to do any real work today. How do I overcome it?
 
6:07 PM
Don't talk about that.
 
@JimNorton Please don't use cpluplus.com. Use CppReference instead.
3
 
Well, it's related to locale stuff, so I'm pretty sure it is borked.
 
@JimNorton leave the Lounge. Seriously, it helps.
 
@EtiennedeMartel OH is it bad?
 
6:07 PM
@JimNorton It has mistakes in places.
 
@JimNorton You don't.
 
it's mildly better.
and wiki-editable
 
Not to say the alternative doesn't have mistakes, but when it has we can fix them.
 
I couldnt help myself , even less , help another people.
 
Ell
is the locale the language, which thousand separator to use, etc. etc. ?
 
6:08 PM
(I already fixed a bunch, so I'm quite confident to say it's not perfect)
 
Is cplusplus.com the new w3schools?
 
@Ell yes.
 
@Ell Yes.
 
@Mysticial Seems so.
 
@rubenvb Ok great... thanks for the tip. I will book mark it now.
 
6:08 PM
cplusplus.com has mistakes?
 
@Mysticial Yes.
 
ah, ok. :)
 
@IAmBatman Yep.
 
Okay, maybe not as bad, but somewhere around that level.
 
@Mysticial I think w3schools is a much worse problem, but it's similar, yeah.
 
6:09 PM
seems hard nowadays to tell the BS apart
what about w3schools?
 
@IAmBatman Outdated crap.
 
It's horrible.
 
@IAmBatman Someone even made a site just for that: w3fools.com
 
lol
curious to see how far this extends: is everyone here theist/atheist?
 
IIRC w3schools has an online html certification program...
 
6:13 PM
@IAmBatman Atheist.
 
@IAmBatman It's better to avoid that kind of discussion. But no, not everyone here is the same one of those.
 
We also got a bunch of anti-religious people.
 
Ohhh ... W3C should push further and harder then.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Which is worthless.
 
I'm atheist myself (but only because I've spent so much time with science that it's become easy to separate the BS out there) -- was just wondering if that general principle of anti-ignorance went past mere coding
 
6:14 PM
They're not affiliated with W3C in any way.
 
@EtiennedeMartel oh you mean people possessing common sense?
 
They have no authority.
 
Like "If you have to analyze religion scientifically then it is not religion anymore" ?
 
@rubenvb See? That's what I meant.
 
@EtiennedeMartel trollolbait
 
6:15 PM
It's like the whole "live and let live" thing just disappeared.
 
Ell
the whole point of religion is faith - if you don't believe then obviously it is pointless
 
I only know one religion and it's illogical and internally inconsistent and I can't subscribe to that sillyness.
 
I never said anything about murder. That's usually the other side.
 
@rubenvb Tsk tsk, you know what I meant.
 
@IAmBatman I'm in the middle, leaning towards theism.
 
Ell
6:15 PM
Religion is believing in something without evidence
 
@CatPlusPlus Then w3c should start legal actions. You cant provide cerfications for some technology you dont regulate.
 
I know of no wars started by atheists who wanted to kill religious people.
 
Ell
I'm an athiest personally
 
@CatPlusPlus It's not supposed to be logical.
 
very interesting
 
6:16 PM
I'm a logical human being.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente What, of course you can.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente You can, but nobody will care if you have one.
 
As @Ell said, it's built on faith; blind faith that is. Reason leads to doubt, which has a tendency to destroy faith.
 
@CatPlusPlus "Your Bible is Broken , I am fixing it!"
 
@EtiennedeMartel I can't subscribe to that either.
Whether god exists or not, I don't really care.
 
6:17 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente d'aww, firefly references.
 
I don't have a problem with faith in itself necessarily... live life however you want to and however it makes you happiest. I have a problem with people imposing their faith onto others
 
But religions are terrible.
 
I'm not religious or anything, but I can understand why some people feel the need to believe in some sort of supernatural entity.
 
There is utility to be had in a belief in God and I don't see reason to knock people for that necessarily
 
6:17 PM
yes
 
So you can just go and provide certifications for something like ABAP without anyone questioning that ?
 
It's not belief in god that I view as a problem.
 
awesome pic.
 
problem is you can't really get those kinds of people to stop impinging on others without attacking their religious beliefs on merits of evidence, which ignites the entire problem
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Yep. Whether those certifications have any value is another issue altogether.
 
6:18 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente Nobody will care.
 
The thing with most irritating religious people is that they see you as evil or "not complete" or whatever.
 
Ell
I think the theoretical value of religion can be beneficial for individuals, but on the whole, I think religions do more harm than good by turning people against eachother
 
@EtiennedeMartel It lacks "It's also not fine to go around trying to castrate anyone that has one".
 
Lol caring about what random people think about you.
 
i agree; fosters harmful tribalism
 
6:19 PM
@SamDeHaan who better than Whedon to provide relious quotes ... maybe something like "Pfttttt ... what a god..." could also work
 
@LeandroArielPezzente It basically boils down to the reputation of the one handing the certification.
 
I have heard MSCP sont have a very good reception either.
 
@Ell Any of the reasonable religious people I know are actually deists.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Same
 
They think there's something up there, but they don't go to Church.
 
6:21 PM
@EtiennedeMartel God as cause of natural laws?
 
One thing I do not understand though is when people tell me they are Christians/etc who believe in the Bible literally
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel deists?
 
And then you ask them if they really believe in talking snakes etc, never get an answer from them
 
Hint: they never read it.
 
Or why otherwise sane people claim to believe in that stuff
I sincerely don't get it
 
6:22 PM
I think religion is simply a human "phenomenon". Just like rain is a natural phenomenon. It has benefit in uniting people on greater scale than just the local village. So there's churches and schools. For indoctrination, yes, but meanwhile people also learn to read and calculate. Today the benefit of religion is gone though.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Maybe I'm more of a deist then. I believe in a creator, but don't got into all the religious activities
 
@StackedCrooked that's mixing two things.
 
@rubenvb One of my friend actually manages to find a bunch of logical reasons for the existence of God. So I guess logic is relative.
 
Education and religion is related, but mostly inversely so.
 
Deists are like Ben Franklin -- they believe there might be "something" out there, but not necessarily one that listens to prayers and cares about how you live life, etc
 
6:22 PM
@rubenvb Two are better than one, not?
 
I think the Christian Bible is a set of ideals not to be taken literally.
 
@EtiennedeMartel logic is math. Nothing more. Proofs of God's existence are always flawed.
 
It's a matter of cognitive bias, really: he sees a specific event as a proof of the existence of God while I see the same event as a proof of its non existence.
 
@JimNorton Well, duh :p
 
you can't use math/logic to prove/disprove God
 
6:23 PM
Religions are mostly a power grab.
 
@StackedCrooked no, the worse the education is, the more fanatic religion is present.
 
@JimNorton Especially the old testament.
 
Problem is, religion is happy with dumb denizens.
 
@IAmBatman You can use it to break religions apart, though.
 
@CatPlusPlus Well only in certain cases, sure, such as pointing out internal inconsistencies or scientific fact that has rendered religious claims false
like the whole young-earth thing
 
6:24 PM
I suppose one has to see the morals and rules put forth in the Bible in the context of what else was out there at the time. I'd imagine that tyrants could have justified a whole heap of hideous deeds through a combination of older religions and wishy-washy Greek relativism
 
@CatPlusPlus Doesn't work. Faith is blind. Logic can't even pierce the shell.
 
"you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
 
@EtiennedeMartel Again, nothing against faith.
 
@CatPlusPlus When we learned in school that the Roman empire eventually declared Christianity as its official religion I thought that was a victory for christianity. Lol, I didn't have that insight back then.
 
It's just religions themselves.
 
6:25 PM
@EtiennedeMartel faith != religion. Religions often add fluff that tends to conflict with scientific knowledge.
 
Well, if you concentrate power in a small set of hands, that is bound to backfire at one point.
 
Faith is contrary to what some say, a personal thing.
I don't mean it can't be shared, I'm trying to say it can't be taught.
 
Well, and hardcore creationists.
 
To anyone in here who has a faith: Can you explain why you have it?
 
@rubenvb I think it can. My parents were atheists. My deist friend had deist parents.
Faith is part of how you see the world, and that has a lot to do with education.
 
6:27 PM
I don't like indoctrination.
 
Einstein used to thougth in God as the internall consistency in Laws of Nature , or in other words , if universe is so precise and well formed in its logic and consintency , then something had to designed or engineered it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel you're confusing indoctrination with education.
 
I've found that once I learned things like evolution, cosmology, quantum physics, mechanics, psychology, statistics, mathematics, etc, religion seemed so obviously manmade to me
 
@LeandroArielPezzente the man was a Jew, what'd you expect.
 
@rubenvb It's not indoctrination. Was I indoctrinated to not believe in God? I don't think so.
 
6:28 PM
@rubenvb I went to a private Jesuit Christian high school. We had religion classes, but it wasn't indoctrination at all.
 
You seem to think that "indoctrination" means "teach something I don't agree with".
 
@rubenvb One is usually indoctrinated with the belief of their country they were brought up in
 
@JimNorton I think you're missing a "not".
 
@EtiennedeMartel The fact that almost all children believe what their parents believe is indoctrination. Critical thought would be distributed randomly resulting in some change in beliefs.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thank you, fixed.
 
6:28 PM
@IAmBatman Western Europe is not like that.
 
indoctrination is teaching someone to accept something as true without any critical thinking
 
@JimNorton Me too. The religion classes were very broad, you just can't start preaching to Belgian High School kids. Thank God ;-)
 
@rubenvb Hahahahah LOL
 
@IAmBatman or not showing them the opposite side.
 
Ell
The school I'm add has obligatory religeous education classes based on Catholicism, but although the textbooks are biased, I think it gets more students questioning their religion and not beleiveing more in it
 
6:30 PM
The religion classes I've had actually fostered critical thinking.
 
how so?
 
@JimNorton Exactly. That's what it should be. And not based on one single religion, but showing each major religion factually.
 
@Ell are you a woman ?
 
I saw the Terminator when I was little and thought about how cool it'd be to be a robot... and then when I learned many years later about things like abiogenesis/evolution, I thought it was like a huge narrative twist/reveal: You've been a bio-robot the whole time! :D
 
wow what deep discussion. i thought this is the c++ channel :)
 
6:32 PM
@IAmBatman My teachers didn't say "This is fact and that is fact". We had ideas, and many different put to us and we were then asked what thoughts we had about it all....
 
Room policy: don't ask about anyone's gender. Ever.
 
Ell
@LeandroArielPezzente I don't see why that is relevant :L
 
It's not relevant. It's not important.
Don't do it.
 
@jami It's a lounge.
 
Ell
My friend has a t-shirt saying "I'm an atheist, thank god!"
 
6:34 PM
oh than i better take a seat
 
I choose to interpret it as 'lounge bar'
sips bourbon
 
We only keep C++ in the title to keep meta police from descending on us.
 
seriously though anyone seeing TDKR tonight?
excited :X
 
How cool would be to a have a pysical "bar like" place to go to where everybody talked about programming and tech topics? I'd pay to be a part of that place.
 
@JimNorton I've been looking for that for years
 
6:36 PM
@JimNorton LLVM has a "California Bay Social" event every so often.
 
then you have to move all to same town
 
can't fathom why there isn't an old-fashioned gentleman's club for programmers
there's enough money in it
 
I wouldn't. I fail at articulating my opinions out loud.
 
@CatPlusPlus Just pretend like you're typing and then speak what you wrote :P
 
@rubenvb LLVM?
 
6:36 PM
Speaking is inefficient.
 
@JimNorton llvm.org
 
Speaking is fast and saves you from carpal tunnel :P
 
@Ell It is not relevant at all. I am just being curious. Havent chatted with any of the regular girls in this room.
 
great. the procedure entry point Wow64GetThreadContext could not be loaded in the dynamic link library KERNEL32.DLL
XP64 sucks
 
6:39 PM
It does. Why are you using it.
Get Vista at least.
 
hehe 64bit named kernel 32
 
That 32 is because of backwards compatibility.
 
I wanted to check XP MinGW-w64 stuffs for someone here.
 
Yeah , switch to Vista64 !
 
Nobody uses XP64.
 
6:40 PM
No, actually I see the 32 as Win32.
 
You can save time and not worry about it.
 
the OS API layer.
 
Ell
@LeandroArielPezzente for the record I am male :L
 
Guess what, it's Win64 in 64-bit.
 
ah ok
never used it
 
6:41 PM
@CatPlusPlus no it's not. Still the Win32 API.
 
No.
It makes no sense to call 64-bit API Win32.
32 was always the bitness.
 
well, no, because Microsoft.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente There's only one regular girl, and it would be appreciated if you chatted with her just like you chat with anyone else in the room.
 
Steam, why is Plants and Zombies on sale again. ._.
 
@rubenvb Microsoft calls it Win64.
 
6:43 PM
NEW GAMES DAMMIT GIVE US NEW GAMES.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes where?
 
Everywhere.
 
Everyone calls it Win64.
 
first hit on msdn search. Win32 vs COM.
sure, everyone does, but it's identical anyways.
except for the WoW64 stuff.
which is like, five functions?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's "platform", MS speak for architecture in some places.
 
Yes, it's platform. That's why we include bitness in the name.
To indicate bitness.
 
platform != API.
sheesh.
 
You're crazy.
 
Search hits on msdn: Win32: 1750, Win64:5, of which 1 the above link by @R.MartinhoFernandes and 4 on social.msdn.com
 
6:47 PM
isn't win64 called wow64?
 
Ell
Is there any way to get rid of all of these mature dating adds? I honestly have no idea why they are there
 
@nightcracker No, that's 32-bits.
That's Windows on Windows64.
@Ell Adblock?
 
Ell
right, good idea
 
Dinner. Bye.
 
@Ell you visit them when logged in.
 
6:48 PM
Ads? What's that.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's the reason you have adblock installed.
 
so true
145 rep till 20k yay
 
@CatPlusPlus I am the only one.
 
@keith.layne That's masochism.
 
It was free
 
6:52 PM
does anyone NOT have adblock installed? XD
 
Free crap is still crap.
 
The alternative is to go back to Linux, and the wife and kids need all the fancy internet stuff to work.
 
no problem
today
 
It's crap compared to what, though? WIndows 7? I'd probably agree, but I don't have a copy, and I'm not buying one.
 
Everything. Even XP32.
 
6:54 PM
At the risk of exposing my noobosity: Is there any actual advantage to using Linux or does it come down to just user pref?
 
yes, and yes
 
I tried Ubuntu once and got annoyed with how often I'd have to type just to do something simple that would take one or two clicks in Windows
 
see, I get annoyed when I have to take my hand away from the keyboard.
 
@IAmBatman for myself i learned a lot more, get detailed system/application error messages, and have lot of dev stuff. Its more fun
 
6:56 PM
but doesn't it feel like it takes so long to type everything out all the time? serious carpal tunnel
 
If they ported all of my games to Linux, I'd probably not bother with Windows any more.
 
Is there any actual advantage to using Linux rather, is there any disadvantage
 
i play under wine
 
there is one thing great about windows that sadly doesn't go for linux
 
it's easier to mod Linux stuff yes?
 
6:56 PM
binary compatability
 
due to its open source nature
 
sadly doesn't go for linux*
 
You can edit your messages.
 
sweet
 
like in windows i can just double click an .exe and install something... in Linux is feels like I have to go digging around forums, finding dependencies, making sure things are compatible, fixing any compilation errors, blahblah
 
6:57 PM
It's not so simple as binary compatibility usually. You can usually build something that will run on most Linux boxes.
yeah, you probably are doing it wrong.
 
the thing is IAmBatman
in windows, all the depency finding, compatabilities, etc are thrown on the programmer
 
What.
It's usually the other way around.
 
e.g. dll hell
 
+1
 
For Windows stuff, you have to find the .exe first. Linuxes use common software repos.
 
6:59 PM
you usually just have 7,000 copies of zlib.dll on your windows box
 
for example
 
software installed everywhere on the system
 

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