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2:00 PM
words from a man with no actual counterpoint, cool
 
Isn't it lovely how the guy that boasts about the salary keeps mentioning ego?
 
if i have to make it explicit for you
 
You don't.
 
I don't actually make twenty+ times your salary. it's just a quick way to derail people.
 
Re you talking about elitism again ? There is no elitism in programming enviroments , no , no , no.
 
2:00 PM
It seems that I do
 
If you didn't get the memo, no one cares.
 
It's also a quick way to look like an idiot.
 
you guys suck at plonking
 
Not actually responding to an argument and acting like you won will do that to you too, CPP
 
But then again you already did.
 
2:01 PM
@thecoshman Indeed, CPP said he'd plonk me eons ago but here he is, still
 
What argument? You mentioned something about singleton portability.
 
@thecoshman I de-plonked him, for some stupid reason. I regret that decision and will now remedy it.
 
Apparently he must really care
 
I don't like to be kept out of the loop.
 
@CatPlusPlus Maybe that's why many Java folks like them.
 
2:01 PM
Sam moved the goalposts and stopped responding
It's what happens when your argument gets tanked
@CatPlusPlus Mmhm.
 
You also mentioned something about sound manager singleton.
 
Which would put two antipatterns into one class.
 
Wow. That's even better.
 
Congratulations, you're a hack.
 
2:02 PM
I love "manager" classes.
 
Again, are you an OOP purist?
 
Managing things are awesome.
 
No, but unlike you, I'm a developer.
 
most of the time, yes, it's an antipattern, absolutely
but I gave you a common example when they're used because they have some benefit to that form of implementation
 
You don't seem to get that any code that uses singletons is a fucking nightmare to extend and maintain.
 
2:03 PM
good afternoon
 
okay but when you say that
 
But then again you probably never even seen real code.
 
it shows you have not been listening
We're talking about something re-usable in short-term programs
 
if I'm not mistaken, there is no requirement that iterator operations (increment mostly) are nothrow, right?
 
not things that require constant maintenance or extension
 
2:04 PM
There's nothing reusable about tightly coupled components.
 
stop the insanity...plonk the troll. On 3. 1, 2, ...
 
@AgainstASicilian I won't try to show you the opposite. I'll just tell you you won't convince me unless you provide an actual advantage over a fucking global.
 
Sure there is, sound management is again a huge one
 
And there's no tighter coupling than a singleton.
Go back to your land of earning 20+ my salary and never write any code. Thanks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes In something like Flash, using a singleton over, say, a global static class has differences when it comes to how assets are loaded (embedding at runtime versus beforehand)
 
2:05 PM
And by the way, if you all you write are "short-term" programs, you're not a programmer, you're a hack.
 
No, really, don't write anything. Ever.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So a Flash developer whose goal is to develop decent games in a timely manner is a "hack"?
because many of the successful ones do just that
Because they actually provide a business advantage
 
Lol.
You're adorable.
 
@CatPlusPlus you too <3
 
Have you heard about term "technical debt"?
 
2:06 PM
@AgainstASicilian Since I don't know Flash, that won't convince me.
 
yes, that doesn't apply here
 
It does.
 
Explain, then
 
How can a programming language be "portable" if hardware vendors are constantly trying to be as diferent and as unstandards as they could possibly be ?
 
Try to maintain code written by someone who went "OOH SINGLETONS ARE JUSTIFIED SURELY".
And you'll see.
 
2:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus Flash games are typically handled by extremely small teams
 
I don't give a fuck about crappy Flash games.
 
moving the goalposts, again
 
We're talking about singletons, not singletons used in shitty games.
 
if you're the only one who's ever going to see your code, you're not going to really care about whether or not someone else can update it
 
@LeandroArielPezzente programming languages (at least the high-level enough ones like we're talking about) should be independent of hardware.
 
2:08 PM
againstasic 99% of programmers work in business applications.
 
@CatPlusPlus Have you seriously not been listening? I'm talking about ONE particular context, in this case Flash games, for which singletons are used. It's exactly what I've been talking about.
 
You won't be able to update it 6 months down the line.
 
If we're just talking about plain singletons in most contexts then I already said that I agree with you/sehe/etc
 
Because it accumulates so much debt it's fucking unmaintainable.
 
@keith.layne They should but ... are they ?
 
2:09 PM
But it doesn't
It doesn't need to change from one program to the next
 
And there's always a better solution than a singleton.
 
And accomplishes a reusable goal effectively
 
Even a stupid context object, because at least it doesn't hide dependencies.
 
@CatPlusPlus Who cares? Sell it, make the money, pay the twentyfold salaries, move on.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I forgot this industry doesn't care about quality.
 
2:10 PM
I'm not talking about "context objects" I am talking about context. general context.
 
I'm SORRY.
Lol you don't even know what context object is.
 
I thougth most of the time , every piece of code you write it is actually mantained by someone else.
 
Okay.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Not always
 
I have 20 times as much knowledge as you, so I'm not going to be discussing anything with you ever again.
 
2:11 PM
If you're making a quick casual game, almost nobody else needs to see your code or maintain it
it's a short-term program
You put it out there, it works, it entertains, it expires
You don't need a huge team to do that
 
I wasnt talking about casual gaming.
 
I am
That's the entire point here
 
@LeandroArielPezzente Ssshhh, he thinks it's relevant to anything.
 
moving the goalposts again
 
@LeandroArielPezzente For the most part, all hardware works the same way in the general sense, so I'd say (generally) yes. The problem is when standards don't exist or give too much leeway that is architechture-dependent.
 
2:13 PM
you can compare a big scale developing with a small scale one. They are two complete different scenarios.
 
Big scale development I'd argue you should almost never use a singleton
 
Even in small-scale I'd only use a singleton for sound manager
otherwise you run into code smells
you can almost always replace them with a better structure
 
Jun 4 at 13:30, by sehe
I figure I could post a question on meta. I'm pretty sure the ignore user function is broken. Nothing else explains this situation
 
I just think it's funny that I can offer a legitimate argument and people get into a hissy fit because they can't admit when they're wrong and just move the goalposts instead
but whatever floats your boat
 
2:15 PM
@sehe No, I actually intentionally de-plonked, during a fit of insanity.
 
It was a repost
Of a /joke/
 
@sehe Oh, JohnSmith. Those were the days, real quality trolls.
 
I wonder how much John Smith earned.
 
I could just heat things up and start to provoke by typing something controversial like : "Bank apps are sooooo boring" or something like that.
 
2:17 PM
@CatPlusPlus Gotta be at least sixty times what you make.
 
Bank apps are boring.
Most of the business software is.
 
Bank apps are zzzzz
 
gasp
I kinda wish jalf or sbi were here, it would be even more entertaining
 
I think John Smith earned a book with golden sheets and strang writting and ohh ... an instant transalte-o-matic device.
 
I've had way too much tea this morning @_@
 
2:19 PM
Martinho, Cat, and sehe are pretty nice to people who are retarded
@LeandroArielPezzente wrong smith
 
Yeah, I have to work on that.
 
@AgainstASicilian It's funny that you 'can offer' a legimate argument, yet refuse to do so. Again the fact that singletons are used does not imply that they have merit.
@AgainstASicilian So your flash-game-use-case is nothing more than anecdotical evidence that... singletons exist. Woot
 
@keith.layne Maybe not, who knows -- it could be the same smith.
 
I drink way to much coffee , but then again , its good for my sanity.
 
2:20 PM
@sehe I gave a good reason why they're used that has merit...
 
jalf and sbi are nice too, but once riled are fun to watch
 
Not merely anecdotal
 
Maybe if we had a pool of generic insults, and just thrown those at them, they'd leave.
Maybe "bore the troll to death" tactic would be more effective.
 
@sehe Again, I don't know why you want to continue having a discussion if you're not actually going to take into account the example given to you.
 
didn't kerrek have his stock answers page? It would be like that. Or better yet, write a retardBot
 
2:21 PM
Oh how I wish I could just kick people out. Or outright ban them.
 
I once got into a "Commercial Illustrators vs Fine Artists" argument. I was pretty entertaining indeed.
 
Maybe I should run for a moderator.
 
@AgainstASicilian Well, I'm starting to think that the 'invisible ink' thing wasn't just a joke then. Friend, I have just gone and re-read the entire backlog. There isn't an example of why and how it has merit. You just claim, singletons exist and are commonly used. Big surprise
 
@sehe That's demonstrably untrue. I gave you explicit examples of why and how.
 
@CatPlusPlus Maybe is should... just run
 
2:22 PM
I heard Perl is a nice language for quote bot programming.
 
perl is gay
 
I am talking about one context. Any other context, yes, I'd agree with you. But if you're not going to talk about that one context then we quite literally have nothing to debate over
 
it hit on me once
 
@AgainstASicilian If it's demonstrable, why don't you demonstrate it? See here and here?
 
Hahahahahahahaha LOL
 
2:23 PM
I love the "people use it so it must be good" argument.
Just like PHP users.
 
@sehe I already told you; when you have short-term-life programs that use small (even solo) teams where time matters, it is defensible to use a singleton sound class
 
There's simply no point in discussing anything.
 
there are also other differences such as embed speed differentials
 
PHP coding looks so similar to JSP coding
 
i've said all of this before and if that isn't "explicit" enough, you need to tell me why that is the case
 
2:24 PM
Why? When is a static accessor not equivalent? Why the need to prohibit multiple instances?
(FTR I asked this at least three times before, as many times as you have repeated this non-example of merit)
 
@sehe I already said that too; the static method results in performance differences due to the way assets are loaded
 
SQL Isolation Levels are Pure Evil.
 
Besides why would you necessarily need more than one sound class?
 
@CatPlusPlus Nah: PHP users frequently have more sense:
in PHP, 1 hour ago, by rdlowrey
So it follows then, that singleton is stupid by your own admission.
in PHP, yesterday, by cHao
warning: if you say "singleton", i will mock you.
in PHP, Jun 22 at 14:24, by tereško
@Sem here's a nice rule of thumb: if you need a singleton, your architecture is broken
 
If any other context I would agree with you
 
2:26 PM
in PHP, Jun 12 at 19:48, by rdlowrey
Fine, don't take my word for it. Google it. Or try this: Singleton is an anti-pattern
 
I don't know why you keep ignoring that
 
cHao hangs out in there? Why is he slumming? Unless to mock people who say singleton?
 
I'm well aware of the downsides of its use
 
sehe what about People use ASP.NET , so it must be good ?
 
2:27 PM
We're not talking PHP
 
@sehe Too bad they don't about PHP itself. :(
 
user784668
Is the behavior of int x = std::numeric_limits<int>::min(); int y = -x; defined?
 
@AgainstASicilian Right I'm back from the search tab. You were saying...
 
I'd rather talk about PHP than this.
 
Also PHP room on SO is 20 times smarter than average PHP user.
Well, except for some people.
 
2:28 PM
@Fanael it may be UB
 
5
Q: Making classes available to others

3nixiosI'm currently working on a 2D game engine in XNA, and I am very interested in architecture, and how best to let my game objects communicate. I know a lot of people use a Singleton design but I believe that this is more of a "counter-architecture" way of doing things, as every class will have acc...

 
@AgainstASicilian There are other solutions to that. Lifetime can be explicitely managed. Just instantiate it at the appropriate time. Either create a lazy accessor (to delay) or ensure early instantiation (pull it to the front)
 
I wish I was a tomato.
3
 
Does any one know if Boost overloads the += operator for list iterators ?
 
user784668
@keith.layne Citation?
 
2:28 PM
"When you're writing a game, you're better off writing a game than worrying too much about having the perfect architecture. There's nothing really wrong with having singletons and global variables in a game. Far better to have less and more flexible code than for it to be perfect."
 
implementation specific I think, just read something about that yesterday, hold on
 
it comes down to preference. not everyone will agree
some people like having the fast reusability, others prefer something a bit more thorough/decked through
 
@EtiennedeMartel I wish you were a tomato
 
@AgainstASicilian sigh
 
@helmus No, because they're not random-access iterators.
 
2:29 PM
@LeandroArielPezzente That'd work :)
 
Use std::advance or std::next for that.
 
How is that there is people working in Game Engines that dont even know what a Hamiltonian is .. less how to Numerically solve Hamilton-Jacobi Equations ?
 
@AgainstASicilian How can you tell. It very much looked like the Cat and me were doing just that
 
2:30 PM
@keith.layne Woot. On-topic
 
How can I tell what
 
@AgainstASicilian Follow the reply links.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes i know , but i found my self writing ----it, which compiles, but looks ridiculous as well
 
@sehe I almost posted just the link, but then I remembered where I saw it. +100 to you.
 
@sehe Yum yum.
 
2:32 PM
Oh, someone is arguing based on 404s now?
This must be a new low.
 
@sehe When I am talking lifetime I am talking about programs that aren't used for long, like a casual game. You release it, people play it, revenue is generated, game falls into obscurity.
 
in PHP, 43 secs ago, by ircmaxell
@deceze I still take offense to it. Yes, there are some dumb people who come in from time to time, but the vast majority of the regulars here are way more than 20 times smarter than the average PHP user (or perhaps I've just met some REALLY dumb ones)...
 
I mean , there are game developers out there who dont even know what Euler's Motion Equations are , less how to use Runge-Kutta or finite differences methods to solve it !
 
user784668
@keith.layne I think I got it. 5/4: "If during the evaluation of an expression, the result is not mathematically defined or not in the range of representable values for its type, the behavior is undefined."
 
@Fanael There's a Schrodinguer's Cat Equivalent in Programming ??? OMG !!!!
 
2:34 PM
@AgainstASicilian Singletons are less flexible and more code. In your own words, that means not having singletons is "far better".
 
@LeandroArielPezzente what does that have to do with anything?
crap. I got trollcrafted.
 
@sehe No, the actual CLASS itself may require a bit more code, but after that, you only need one-liners to use it from that point forward, resulting in far less code
 
waaaaaaai?!?!?
 
@AgainstASicilian the only remotely realistic *pro argument to use singletons is that you can use existing (flawed) code pragmatically. I think there is no valid reason to write a singleton.
 
and it's faster to get your game done
 
2:35 PM
@Fanael hope that helps, thank sehe
 
@sehe Yes, using code pragmatically IS the advantage
 
@rubenvb I've been wanting to ask you something
 
@sehe I'm not talking about "writing" in terms of the actual class itself.
 
How can you actually code a Physics Simulation if you dont know Numerical Physics in the first place ?
 
@AgainstASicilian Again. How does using a global, a static, or a global static accessor function require more code. It's just the same.
 
2:35 PM
foo vs foo.getInstance() <- the second is less code.
 
@LeandroArielPezzente stop. Or go away. Or better: say something useful. Or get flagged.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes e.g.
 
@sehe I don't know why you keep asking me to repeat myself. I told you why static isn't used much in that context
 
Hmm, newOldPath isn't a very good variable name, is it?
 
@keith.layne ask away.
 
2:36 PM
do i write "prev(prev(myList.end()))" or "----myList.end()"
 
@rubenvb a. that guy is not the main problem
 
And I refuted it.
Goodbue
 
@helmus prev(myList.end(), 2)
 
user784668
@keith.layne No, I'll thank myself for knowing how to grep through the standard.
 
@sehe I'm talking about making a class that you can then use from that point on with ease, making it much faster to produce
 
2:36 PM
b. I cant print doubles to cout with mingw64
 
@sehe You have not. If so, please show me a quote
 
@Fanael my bad, wasn't really paying attention
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's even better !
 
8 mins ago, by sehe
@AgainstASicilian There are other solutions to that. Lifetime can be explicitely managed. Just instantiate it at the appropriate time. Either create a lazy accessor (to delay) or ensure early instantiation (pull it to the front)
I think it went over your head, because somehow you referred to the lifetime of a project shortly after. I meant the lifetime of the instance
 
2:37 PM
@keith.layne oh. What toolchain/versions?
 
@Fanael was I right?
 
@sehe Of course it did.
 
And a testcase is always lovely so I can tell you to use my builds if they work correctly :)
 
the rubenvb build on win64
 
user784668
@keith.layne Yes, it's a UB.
 
2:37 PM
@rubenvb What do you have aginst physicists ?
 
Morning folks.
 
@keith.layne There's four right now.
 
@Fanael I'm cool with being an idiot if I was right
 
@rubenvb sorry
 
2:38 PM
I believe this gentleman deserves more credit for his work. Please upvote accordingly:
3
A: Access function pointers outside of the instance

Vlad LazarenkoYou naturally have few options: Do not use >> operator and create a function that does the same but accepts three arguments - an input stream, a first object and an input reader object. Define operator >> that accepts a tuple of first and InputReader as a second argument (i.e. a pai...

 
@LeandroArielPezzente They write crap code.
 
@sehe In something like Flash, "instantiating at the appropriate time" is already done
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Amen to that. First-hand experience :P
 
Even programmers write crap code, so you can't really blame them, though.
 
lol
 
2:38 PM
I saw a bug report, but I assume it's a libstdc++ thing, didn't know if you had run across that problem
 
but if you're using a static class then the loading-into-memory is treated differently
 
@keith.layne what GCC version?
 
And some programmers even defend writing crap code (example is in sight cough), so...
 
oh, 4.7.0 I think
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you mean underperformant or not good OOP designed ?
 
2:39 PM
@keith.layne OK. What code? (ie code sample showing the problem)
 
@LeandroArielPezzente In this particular instance, I was referring to singletons.
 
double d = 1.0; std::cout << d;
prints 0, or occasionally I get something e-137
 
Is that the whole program?
Sounds like UB somewhere.
 
doubles and long doubles
 
2:41 PM
@rubenvb Doing propper Numerical Physics requires more computing time than just ignoring nature behaveiour and simulating it with cheap programming tricks.
 
I can't imagine it's a compiler problem, but a library problem.
 
@keith.layne yeah, bad link. You've linked against a C++ library where double is a different size.
 
@keith.layne My GCC 4.7.1 does not reproduce this.
Let's see if I have the 4.7.0 still laying around.
I do.
 
Okay, I'll look, I thought I downloaded your latest on SF
 
wait, double has to be 64 bits... hmm.
 
2:42 PM
maybe it's a msys problem?
 
nope. It also does not reproduce this issue. What OS?
 
xp64
 
Might be an XP+MinGW-w64 issue. Did you get the v2.0.4 update in the rubenvb/update directory?
it might fix this, though I'm not sure.
 
sounds like it is a problem on my end maybe too. I'll have to look again.
 
After all , just using a framework like Unity is not an excuse for not knowing Physics if you are developing a Game Engine.
 
2:43 PM
I don't want to waste your time with it, I'll have to check it out when I get home.
 
@keith.layne cause php users tend to really, really, really need help. i'm hoping i can help keep the new ones from all becoming useless. :)
 
@cHao fair enough. You're a kind soul.
 
Saying that would be an idiotic Lazy Programmer's statement.
 
I know smart people who think PHP is great. They just don't really know better.
 
What do people prefer to PHP?
 
2:44 PM
@keith.layne It might be a Windows XP hiccup still. Let me know if you find a fix and also if you don't. Maybe I should get an XP VM for this stuff. Might come in handy.
 
@rubenvb thanks a bunch, man. I'll let you know, but it will be later.
 
@keith.layne But I want it NOW! :P
 
I bet some people prefer singletons to PHP.
 
@MooingDuck Thought you'd be interested to see:
1
Q: Access function pointers outside of the instance

DriseI have a class as outlined below: class InputReader { public: typedef void (*handler)(std::string, int); static void errorHandler(std::string error, int severity); //Supplies a default error handler static void warningHandler(std::string error, int severity); //Supplies a default warnin...

 
Some people preffer ASP to JSF
 
user784668
2:47 PM
Is there a programming language whose name begins with a P, which doesn't suck much and which is not Python?
 
Some people preffer Windows Phone to Android
 
potato
I just made that up
 
potato tomato?
 
2:48 PM
what alphabet are you using?
 
user784668
@LeandroArielPezzente "whose name begins with a P"
 
@Fanael Piet.
 
I am using "Order by alpha DESC" alphabet
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol, dat thing is kewl
 
2:49 PM
@keith.layne php has its perks. the oop support is actually more flexible than java's, and opt-in :P
 
@Fanael postscript :)
 
What's the downside to PHP?
 
@keith.layne "which doesn't suck"
 
The aim of this list of programming languages is to include all notable programming languages in existence, both those in current use and historical ones, in alphabetical order, except for dialects of BASIC and esoteric programming languages. :Note: Dialects of BASIC have been moved to the separate List of BASIC dialects. :Note: This page does not list esoteric programming languages. A * A# .NET * A# (Axiom) * A-0 System * A+ * A++ * ABAP * ABC * ABC ALGOL * ABLE * ABSET * ABSYS * Abundance * ACC * Accent * Ace DASL * ACT-III * Action! * ActionScript * Ada * Adenine * Agda * Agor...
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes "which doesn't suck much". Because all languages suck, but some suck more.
 
2:50 PM
Messy structured programming ?
 
@AgainstASicilian the biggest downside to php is, frankly, the freaking idiots who use it.
 
Please don't start another PHP rant.
 
pl/scheme
 
Even messier object structured spaghetti programming ?
 
Write a blog about it if you want.
 
2:50 PM
pl/sql ?
 
Just don't do it here.
 
lol
 
@cHao Examples?
 
ask in the php channel. :)
 
Time-traveller's underwear stash found: http://bit.ly/MIUPe8
 
2:52 PM
the fuck?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes JSP is equally messy , you just delete the scrtutured part.
 
Someone's trying to hack Spider Solitaire
1
Q: How do I use a game's base pointer to edit a value in C++?

user1007059Okay I've followed a couple of tutorials on how to find the base/static pointer of a game's value with cheat engine (hp, strength, experience, gold, etc). To test this I tried it on Microsoft's Spider Solitaire and it worked. I got the base pointer for the amount of moves ("zetten" as you will se...

 
user784668
Okay, so I'm a PHP programmer. Python-Haskell-Prolog.
 
I'm really ambivalent about Python
 
Wich one is more easy to learn Haskell or ObjectiveCaml ?
 
2:55 PM
yes
 
user784668
@LeandroArielPezzente It depends.
 
I had bad experiences with Python. I dont get how grammar can change so much from 2.2 to 2.6 to 3.1
I really like F# wich is based on ObjectiveCaml , but i dont know if Haskell is harder to learn.
 
user784668
@LeandroArielPezzente From 2.2 to 2.6 they were mostly adding new features, and 3.1 is intentionally incompatible with 2.x so they could get rid of shit.
 
I just realized there is an analogy between the c++ standards committee and the US congress
 
Yup. I got that message. Several times. However, that doesn't make singletons necessary. Even in that context. It just means, they are currently used, in that context. BIG difference.
Anyways, sorry for the delay. I got work to do :)
 
2:58 PM
the difference is that congress was designed to be slow and deliberate, I hope the committee not so much
 
user784668
@keith.layne The committee is a bunch of idiots and thieves too?
 
So that means you have to re-learn Python grammars from time to time ? . Why not simply use a "deprecated" approach ?
 
possibly
I can neither confirm not deny
 
A camel is a hore build by a committee
 

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