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7:00 PM
@DeadMG It's not irrelevant, it's the fucking name.
 
Calling it Hungarian notation is arbitrary.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Which is entirely irrelevant.
it shares all of the actually important characteristics- it loads the identifier with type information.
 
6 mins ago, by DeadMG
tchar8 and char8_t are equally Hungarian Notation
That is wrong.
 
@DeadMG Nonsense. Hungarian notation was invented by Charles Simonyi, and consists of exactly what he decided on, nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else. Your argument is equivalent to claiming that German, English, and French are the same thing, because either can be used to express roughly the same ideas.
6
 
7:00 PM
the form of that information is irrelevant.
 
Ell
@DeadMG just accept defeat man, seriously
 
@DeadMG No, it's not. Stop moving the goalposts.
 
@Ell Lol.
 
Some day, I'll realize that I can just ignore DeadMG and not miss anything from this chat.
 
7:01 PM
This is how typical Lounge argument works.
 
@SamDeHaan no, he says a lot of good stuff, he just never admits to being wrong
 
Because he never is. Duh.
 
Ell
amen to "never admits to being wrong" - but also "says a lot of good stuff"
 
@SamDeHaan Not true. Chat is about having fun, not solid information -- and the puppy is fun.
 
In fairness, he does admit that from time to time.
 
7:02 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I haven't moved the goalposts. You have.
 
His usual arguing technique is: if wrong, change the subject until you find something on which you're right, at which point you are automatically right about every other subject.
 
@Ell And how many people do?
 
@JerryCoffin idgaf about solid information, it's just his inability to accept that he's wrong. It's basic human communication, and he fails at it.
 
@DeadMG What I'm arguing about is: suffixing an identifier is not Hungarian notation. And then you said that it is.
 
it is identical in every meaningful respect.
 
7:03 PM
goalposts moved again!
 
@DeadMG It might be similar. But it is not hungarian notation.
 
For some arbitrary definition of "meaningful".
 
it contains the exact same information, shares exactly the same problems, and exists for exactly the same reasons.
 
@DeadMG Hungarian Notation is not a concept it is a specification.
 
I thought they normally put those things in concrete
 
7:04 PM
you might as well argue that an apple is not an apple because I covered it in pink food colouring.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes "meaningful" means "anything that makes DeadMG right".
 
Ell
@JerryCoffin I think a lot of people admit they are being wrong, I for one, will admit very willingly that I am wrong - perhaps too willingly, which is why I get pushed around sometimes
 
@DeadMG It behaves differently with IntelliSense.
 
@SamDeHaan I think most people fail in that respect. I know I do at least part of the time -- even when/if I admit I was wrong, I secretly harbor the belief that somehow or other I was really right, and just didn't find the right arguments/evidence to prove it.
 
@DeadMG You're not even saying that, you're saying that an Apple is the same thing as a Pear because they look similar, they're both food and they both come from a tree.
 
7:05 PM
@JerryCoffin And you're expecting stairway wit, heh?
 
When I'm drunk I'm always right, no matter what.
 
In a lot of cases, if the same subject arises again later, it becomes obvious I still believe what I did previously...
 
and they perform identically in every use to which you might care to put them?
then yes, I'd argue that they are the same thing for all intents and purposes
 
@DeadMG Except IntelliSense.
 
@JerryCoffin That's called "cognitive dissonance". We all do that.
 
7:05 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I've never seen Intellisense respond to any such thing.
 
@DeadMG But they're still not the same thing. They're similar, yes, but they're still different.
 
With one, IntelliSense gets you the suffix for free. With the other you have to type it yourself.
That sounds different to me.
 
Screw all of this. I'm buying Guild Wars 2.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Does it perform identically? Yes? It's the same thing from the perspective of performing that function.
 
@DeadMG The function of conforming to the specification of Hungarian notation? No.
 
7:06 PM
What the hell, I'm being incredibly pedant and you still manage to argue about it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes "stairway wit"?
 
@SamDeHaan What? nobody gives a shit about that
 
@DeadMG I see it like a syntax error. Yes, it still conveys the concept, but it is outside the specification.
 
the function of adding type information into the identifier
 
@DeadMG that's what this argument was before you moved the goalposts.
 
7:07 PM
"The Comeback" is the 147th episode of the NBC sitcom Seinfeld. This was the 13th episode for the eighth season. It aired on January 30, 1997. The episode was written by Gregg Kavet & Andy Robin and was directed by David Owen Trainor. Like many episodes of Seinfeld, this episode contains a plotline for each of the main characters. George Costanza goes to great lengths to deliver a retort to a coworker (the eponymous , a phenomenon described by the French expression "L'esprit de l'escalier"). Jerry Seinfeld knows the secret of a worker from a tennis club pro shop — that he is a bad tenn...
 
@SamDeHaan They are exactly the same as when we started.
 
@JerryCoffin Aka "l'esprit de l'escalier".
 
@DeadMG When we started, you said _t is hungarian notation
 
@SamDeHaan And it is for any purpose that you might care to put it to.
 
And people disagreed.
 
7:08 PM
it adds type information into the identifier.
 
@DeadMG But that doesn't matter. It is not hungarian notation.
 
@DeadMG's essentially saying that duck typing applies to anything in life.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ewww...no wonder I didn't recognize it. Couldn't stand that show.
 
Greetings!
 
No one else was ever arguing if _t adds type information. They were arguing Hungarian Notation. And you know it.
 
7:08 PM
@SamDeHaan Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed the part where "Every use you might possibly imagine" is less important than "The arbitrary name some idiot assigned to it".
 
@JerryCoffin Oh, it's not from Seinfeld. But that episode is about it.
Also, shame on you for not liking Seinfeld.
 
@DeadMG For this argument you started? That's the only important part.
 
> L'esprit de l'escalier or L'esprit d'escalier (literally, staircase wit) is a French term used in English that describes the predicament of thinking of the right comeback too late.
 
@DeadMG It's not arbitrary, it's because it follows the structure of hungarian names.
 
@SamDeHaan It's never the important part.
 
7:09 PM
What do you people think of this style of initializing variables?
http://pastebin.com/q6N9HFaB
 
ever.
 
@DeadMG So, wait, the part where you're wrong is never the important one?
 
@DeadMG When you're arguing if something is X? Whether or not it is X is the important part, not whether or not it can do the same tricks as X.
 
@SamDeHaan If it can do the same tricks, it's the same thing.
 
@DeadMG Nope.
 
7:10 PM
@DeadMG No. That's like saying A and B are the same types because they both have the same methods.
 
@DeadMG That's a purely functional definition. Purely functional definitions define something's functionality, not what it is.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No, no, no. It's not that I don't like Seinfeld. It's that I despise it with a passion.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Well, I do admit error when I actually have error. But I never care about syntax over semantics, whereas several other people in the chat seem to have syntax hard-ons and don't care about semantics.
@EtiennedeMartel ... and you could perfectly well write a template that effectively defines them as equivalent and operates perfectly correctly anyway.
 
@DeadMG Equivalent, but not identical.
 
@EtiennedeMartel You're really arguing in favour of ===?
 
7:12 PM
lol
 
cause I know a lot of people who think that's the dumbest operator they ever saw, and I'm one of them.
 
@DeadMG No, I'm arguing about the fact that you can't change the definition of "is" just to suit your needs.
 
@EtiennedeMartel If it looks like a duck.
 
@DeadMG Whoosh, the sound the goalposts make as they fly past us.
 
@CatPlusPlus I dislike duck typing.
 
7:13 PM
@JerryCoffin I shall reassess my opinion of you.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Possesses all the same utility? Is the same.
 
Duck typing and Haskell typing are the only sane typing methods.
Well, strong duck typing.
 
Can you hear me now? :-)
 
@DeadMG Oh what the hell, it's like you're trying to change reality in order to be right.
 
@JimNorton No.
 
7:14 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I would if I could.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Reality is that syntactic form is irrelevant and semantics are meaningful.
 
Also, the code's fine and we don't do C.
 
@CatPlusPlus Good
 
@EtiennedeMartel Either that or he only comprehends reality at a very simple level.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel just give up, everyone else here knows you are right
 
7:15 PM
@SamDeHaan Arguably, it's more complex to go duck typing.
 
55€ ;_;
 
@CatPlusPlus It's C++ compatible is it not?
 
I still can't bring myself to click "pay".
 
@DeadMG Reality is that you started this argument about whether or not _t is hungarian notation, not whether or not _t serves the same function as hungarian notation.
 
@CatPlusPlus FUCKING DO IT.
 
7:15 PM
@JimNorton What is?
 
@SamDeHaan Which are the same arguments.
 
@EtiennedeMartel BUT FIFTY FIVE PRECIOUS.
 
@CatPlusPlus For what?
 
Guild Wars 2.
 
oh
dude, that's le expensive.
 
Ell
7:16 PM
@DeadMG no they are not the same arguments, because they don't serve the same purpose because if they were we wouldn't be having this argument
 
@EtiennedeMartel At the moment what I'm hearing is Dave Wilcox singing "Blow 'em away".
 
@Ell Uh, I think you're missing a trick there...
 
Oh, guess you didn't see my previous comment.

------

What do you people think of this style of initializing variables?
pastebin.com/q6N9HFaB
 
I gotta slow down my spending rate. Eh, I'll wait to payday.
 
@JimNorton It's fugly C. That's what I think.
 
7:16 PM
@JimNorton I saw it.
 
@JerryCoffin I love David Wilcox.
 
2 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Also, the code's fine and we don't do C.
 
Ell
@DeadMG probably I'm just winding myself up anyway so
 
@JimNorton He is good, isn't he? I'm a always a bit surprised to run into somebody else who's even heard of him.
 
@DeadMG Yeah. Of course. :-)
 
7:17 PM
@DeadMG So, because all art serves the same purpose, a kid's finger painting is a picasso?
 
@JerryCoffin Yep.
 
@SamDeHaan Personally, I'd argue that they're equally as worthless, and should equally be binned.
 
@JerryCoffin A hang glider pilot friend of mine introduced me to his music.
 
@Ell Wrong @
 
Ell
oops sorry yeah
 
7:18 PM
@DeadMG So, you've decided not to answer my question. Clever way of trying to not admit you're wrong.
 
@SamDeHaan Don't see how. I think they are basically the same thing and should be treated the same. That answers your question.
 
@JimNorton Hmmm...hang gliders and David Wilcox. Interesting combination.
 
@DeadMG So, they are the same thing, or they basically are the same thing? Because it sounds like you're not willing to strongly state this one because you know how stupid it sounds.
 
@SamDeHaan I think you're reading way too much into what I'm saying.
given a finger painting or a picasso, I would treat them equally, so from my perspective there is no distinction.
how much more clearly do you want me to say it?
 
@DeadMG I'm not asking if there's no distinction. I'm asking if the first is the second, as you've claimed earlier.
 
7:21 PM
but as I've already claimed, those two are identical.
 
You're all really bored, aren't you.
 
so you're trying to pick a point from me which I have already suggested I believe does not exist
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm working
 
@MooingDuck So you are.
 
@DeadMG So let's get closer to home. Do you claim that because they can all be used for programming, that C++, Java, JavaScript, and PHP are exactly the same thing?
 
7:22 PM
@JerryCoffin They are not particularly similar in functionality.
 
@JerryCoffin He has a song, I forget the name, that is about sports and doing the best you can blah blah, falling down, getting up... make it look easy. One of the parts talks about flying a hang glider off of a tall mountain in Hawaii
 
They're all Turing-complete!
Well, except for PHP, which is trainwreck-complete.
 
@JerryCoffin I think it may be time to retire this one. Everyone existing in 'not DeadMG's reality' knows that he's wrong, and everyone existing in 'DeadMG's reality' (population 1) knows he's right.
3
 
@CatPlusPlus But with some, you can accomplish tasks more reliably and for less cost.
 
@SamDeHaan Yeah, probably.
 
7:23 PM
@SamDeHaan Everyone who cares about form over function thinks I'm wrong, and everyone who cares about function over form thinks I'm right.
nothing specific about me
 
In this case, it's rather specific. Caring about function > form does not require pretending form does not exist. If there are others who share this viewpoint you have, they can join you on that side of the fence (but as of yet, no one has)
 
The real issue is:
 
although I admittedly have an unusually strong inclination for function over form.
 
Should I go all-nighter or not.
 
@DeadMG It dawns on me that your side of the argument seems to permit UB as valid, in the case where it performs the same functionality.
 
7:25 PM
@CatPlusPlus More like all-week-er.
 
FULL META.
 
@MooingDuck If you could show that it does perform the same functionality as equivalent code with well-defined behaviour, which is impossible.
 
@JerryCoffin This is my favorite David Wilcox song.
http://davidwilcox.com/index.php?page=songs&category=Big_Horizon&display=228
@CatPlusPlus Only if you need to.
 
@SamDeHaan No, it requires acknowledging that form is not meaningful.
in which side you can count every single duck-typed language and language feature (their proponents, technically), for example.
 
@JimNorton I might get something done (yeah right).
 
7:27 PM
@CatPlusPlus Are you gonna study?
 
Pfsht, no.
 
just don't go all-nighter, it just doesn't work
 
@DeadMG You're welcome to continue, but I've satisfied my desire to this, and will likely not respond.
 
@SamDeHaan I need to go eat and buy cheese.
 
@JimNorton Ah, yes. I never paid that close of attention to the hang-gliding part. That's just the introduction to the important part (class 5 rapids)! :-)
 
7:28 PM
I can't really sleep, either, because EVERYONE IS ANNOYING LIKE HELL.
 
@JerryCoffin LOL! I would love to learn that sport as well.
 
Rage.
 
@CatPlusPlus Smack them.
 
sbi
This is funny.
 
@JimNorton Come quick -- at least Brown's Canyon isn't on fire!
 
7:29 PM
@JerryCoffin Colorado?
 
@CatPlusPlus Don't buy this.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Clever. I wasn't planning to.
 
@JerryCoffin Those fires seem bad....
 
Egads that damn kid.
 
@JimNorton Yah.
 
7:31 PM
If people don't stop repeating his name over and over again, I'm gonna fucking snap.
 
@sbi indeed tis
 
sbi
@DeadMG I was surprised to see how good the seemingly so clumsy bear climbs around. Almost like a monkey, and certainly better than a common house cat.
 
@sbi Agreed. How the hell did the baby bear even get up there in the first place?
 
sbi
@DeadMG I dunno. Maybe using that ladder, too?
 
@sbi Yeah, I've been told numerous times that if an angry bear is pursuing you, do not try to escape by climbing up a tree.
 
7:33 PM
@JimNorton Fairly nasty -- High Park may well become the biggest fire in the state's history. It's been burning for weeks already, and we're just coming into (what's usually) the hottest part of the summer. The Waldo Canyon fire is smaller, but enough closer to home that our "air" is pretty much smoky haze today.
 
A few very lucky people have had luck with turning round, throwing their arms in the air and roaring at it as loudly as they can
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel A trap, huh? Also, I heard "do not run at all", or run downhill. How about that?
 
the bear's "...the fuck?" response sometimes confuses it enough that it'll give up
 
@EtiennedeMartel Climbing a tree will tell you whether it's a black bear or a grizzly bear chasing you though. A black bear will climb the tree after you and eat you. A grizzly will knock the tree down and eat you.
8
 
@JerryCoffin Oh man.... not good at all. I've heard many homes have been lost.
 
7:36 PM
@JerryCoffin Do bears actually eat humans? I thought they primarily subsided on fish and weren't really interested in eating us.
 
@sbi I heard bears are slow when turning, so you should try to avoid running in straight lines. But either way, best way is to avoid angering one. They run fast, they climb fast, and they swim well.
 
sbi
@DeadMG Actually, they subside mostly on vegetation.
 
Is there a way to color string output?
 
@DeadMG Mothers are highly protective of their cubs, and will not hesitate to maul you to death to defend them.
 
@NicoBellic With a crayon, yes.
 
7:37 PM
@DeadMG Most adult bears will generally avoid people. The big problem is with cubs who are curious and investigate everything -- and momma bears apparently are as protective as their reputation says. The other problem is bears who've gotten used to people so they don't avoid them anymore.
 
bitches
:)
 
@JimNorton regular color pencils won't work?
 
@Nils Hey Nils.
 
hey :)
 
Yeah, people who live in wooded areas have to put their garbage in wooden boxes because the bears might eat them otherwise.
 
7:38 PM
how's life?
 
That's right: bears are essentially large size raccoons. With claws.
 
@Nils Life is good. Death is peaceful. Only the transition causes problems.
 
Can I have a void pointer pointing to itself?
 
@NicoBellic There is no "C++" standard way, but most OS's have a way to color output
@Nils sure
 
@NicoBellic I think it depends on the type of output. But ask @DeadMG, he will know.
 
7:39 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Just don't imply that racoons don't have claws -- they do, and nasty ones at that.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. But not as large as bears'.
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel And strength enough to break an ox' neck with one swipe of their paw. Well, brown bears (aka "grizzly" in north America), that is.
 
I can't fucking sleep
 
@Nils I know how you feel.
 
sbi
@Nils Have you tried to sleep without fucking?
 
7:40 PM
eheh
 
@sbi Grizzlies, especially, are really strong. They have a "hump" of muscle on their back, originally to help dig burrows, but effective for other purposes too.
 
@DeadMG any ideas on coloring string output?
 
@NicoBellic You would have to be a billion miles more specific.
output to where, using what API on what OS?
 
Well, gotta go pick up kids. Later all.
 
say I want to cout three strings. The first one to be red, second blue, third green
Mac.
 
7:42 PM
to where?
a terminal?
 
Yep.
 
right
go ask the OS API
maybe it will have something
if not then you are fucked
 
ncurses (new curses) is a programming library that provides an API which allows the programmer to write text-based user interfaces in a terminal-independent manner. It is a toolkit for developing "GUI-like" application software that runs under a terminal emulator. It also optimizes screen changes, in order to reduce the latency experienced when using remote shells. History The N in ncurses comes from the word new. This is because ncurses is a free software emulation (clone) of the System V Release 4.0 (SVr4) curses, which was itself an enhancement over the discontinued classic 4.4 BSD cu...
I hate that whenever someone (including me) posts a link, SO disconnects until I refresh the page, about 95% of the time
 
flump
 
sbi
@MooingDuck never happened to me.
 
@DeadMG won't be the end of the world if there is nothing. I just thought it would be cool to help me out with objects. But oh well.
 
@NicoBellic Most OS's have something, but you'll have to ask the guys who know the MacOS, or use a standard library.
@NicoBellic (also, people were kidding when they told you to ask DeadMG)
 
humm I type list in lldb and get nothing
 
@MooingDuck ncurses is supported on OS X, I think.
 
void *ptr; ptr = &ptr;
(gdb) p ptr
$1 = (void *) 0x7fff5fbffa08
(gdb) p & ptr
$2 = (void **) 0x7fff5fbffa08
nice
 
7:49 PM
We've been over silly pointer-to-self pointers.
 
yeah I remember
but what does the standard say?
 
@NicoBellic std::cout << "red"; std::cout << "blue"; std::cout << "green";
 
@EtiennedeMartel that's why I linked it
@Nils it says a void* can point at whatever the frick it wants
 
what's the use of pointer-to-self?
 
@TomW nothing
 
7:50 PM
right.
Just wondering
 
You can't even dereference it very well without hitting UB
 
what about int
 
@Nils what about it? Can an int hold it's own address? Sometimes. Depends on how big a pointer is compared to an int
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel They killed it for being proud of having done so. The fun in that escapes me.
 
7:52 PM
also, does void mean anything other than a placeholder for 'no relevant type information'? Does it tell the compiler to do anything specific?
 
@TomW nope. It's "no type"
 
Image macros is my cue to do something else.
 
@MooingDuck It's always health to void at least a few times a week.
 
@CatPlusPlus Like... hitting annoying strangers?
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's becoming increasingly tempting.
 
7:57 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I hope I'm not an annoying stranger.
Ah did I kill the party?
 
@JimNorton Yes.
So, @Cat, did you buy GW2?
 

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