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12:00 AM
There's one of my most starred quote.
Jan 25 at 18:32, by Etienne de Martel
@Olumide If you love C++, then you did not use it enough.
 
C++ may not be the most elegant I like it. I like other languages as well but C++ still has it's place.
 
Ell
Yeah I just don't like the mish mash of oop and imperative
 
@NikiC See my above quote.
 
@NikiC Was so tempted to move them all to the PHP room :)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, the quote applies
I didn't use it much ^^
 
Ell
12:01 AM
Was it deadmg who was embarrassed about the "omg a girl!" Thing ?
 
Erm, I was invited to join a "C#" room.
 
Got I hate these "binned" messages
 
@sehe That weren't all C++ sucks messages!
 
@NikiC Better?
LOL
 
@sehe Better!
@sehe Ah, there it is, I found a typo!
 
12:05 AM
Hmm, tea is good.
 
@NikiC I hope you have enough admin fu to get rid of those pesky ← n messages moved from ... messages
 
Tea is great!
 
@sehe I knew that you have weak moments of orthographical imperfection!
 
@NikiC I think of them as moments of great imperfection
 
@sehe No, I don't have OP in the PHP room ^^
 
12:07 AM
@NikiC I can see (another reason) why you're here though. Seems rather quiet in room PHP
in PHP, 4 mins ago, by NikiC
I got us some C++ sucks messages!
3
 
So, a guy invited me to a chatroom because he saw on my profile that I was a C# programmer.
I guess chatroom invite is the new PM.
@sehe Yeah, what was this all about?
 
@sehe Yup :) Though the PHP chatroom is kinda slowly turning in a C chatroom.
So, basically we manage to combine the two things you loath most: PHP and C :)
 
@EtiennedeMartel See this (click to the Stack Overflow profile):
NikiC, Berlin, Germany
21.9k 5 37 80
 
in PHP, Jul 4 '11 at 14:27, by Gordon
@zerkms PHP scales from a simple web form to the largest social network in the world. if it can do that, any complaints about it are moot. it sure aint the prettiest language out there, but its the most adopted scripting language and it sure is capable of getting things done.
I hate that argument. "Oh, Facebook runs on PHP!" No it doesn't, it runs in C++.
 
@EtiennedeMartel It's written in PHP syntax and semantics. Which is what everyone hates ;) Most people don't particular hate the Zend Engine.
So, for the sake of that particular discussion it seems like a valid argument :)
 
12:12 AM
@NikiC Yeah, but the "it scales" argument is wrong.
And in the case of FB, most of the load is on the database.
 
Can we just get along. PHP sucks. Quite a bit more than C. Possibly even more than C++. Hard to tell, really. Depends on who uses it. But that would be a boring deconstruction of a delicious flame war
 
@EtiennedeMartel Oh yeah. It trivially scales only to a few million pageviews per day. After that you have to be more careful (but that's the same with all architectures)
@sehe Oh, I don't want to argue :) I'm rather sick of the topic ^^
 
@sehe But if the guys in the PHP rooms start banging on C++, I don't care, they're probably right anyway. As long as they don't claim it's worse than PHP, though.
And comparing C++ to PHP is comparing apples to oranges, as far as I'm concerned.
 
The two languages are not applied to the same domains.
 
12:15 AM
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, because only web programmers would be stupid enough to use PHP ^^
 
@DeadMG Ever tried using PHP on the command line?
It's a poor excuse for a scripting language.
 
no, and nor do I intend to try
if you need RAD or smth Python would be my choice
or C#
definitely not PHP
 
@EtiennedeMartel I did. It reminded me much of perl. Which I hardly use these days for much the arguments given in this O'Reilly shoot-out:
 
I started in the Web world with PHP. I didn't really "enjoy" it, it's more that I didn't know anything better. Then I discovered C#, and ASP.NET. My view on all this changed, and I'm not touching PHP anymore.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ooh. That's harsh, given that web programming with ASP.NET is a royal pain
 
12:19 AM
@sehe Oh, it's waayyy better than PHP. Especially with ASP.NET MVC.
 
MVC is beginning to get the tide turning for MS, IMO
 
WebForms, I agree, is crap. But it's still not as bad as PHP.
 
So... when did you learn web programming? MVC wasn't exactly the thing when I was first exposed. So ASP.Net 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, Ajax Extension, I ate them all (as far as I couldn't avoid them)
 
MVC is such an overrated term
 
@sehe I'm young, ya know. I started programming in 2006.
 
12:21 AM
@NikiC Well, in MS.NET world, it is not a 'term', it is a project title. As such, it just 'is' - and it is not vague or underspecified
 
Every framework claims to use MVC. They just all interpret it differently
@sehe That makes it even worse
 
@NikiC WebForms is not an MVC framework.
@NikiC Ever tried using ASP.NET MVC? I don't think so.
 
@EtiennedeMartel You mentioned something about ASP.NET MVC
 
@NikiC Well, I'd have loved if they had chosen another name. But I'll rate the framework for it's merit, not the name. It is breath of fresh air after Boa Constrictor WebForms
 
No, didn't use it. Have no idea what it is
 
12:23 AM
You got your views (which are just your templates), you got your controllers (which takes the request, takes data from the model and feeds it your views) and you got your model (i.e. your data).
 
I generally have a rather anti-framework attitude
 
You got your views, and they are mostly based on your beliefs, and only incidentally coincide with facts. FTFY :)
 
@NikiC Essentially, there are two ways to do web apps in .NET: WebForms (that's what "ASP.NET" referred to before 2009), and MVC.
@NikiC So you just reinvent the wheel everytime?
 
@NikiC Good. Rule #1 Frameworks must be.
Rule #2 Framework must be unintrusive
 
Most frameworks are designed to enslave the application
@sehe Exactly. Most fws don't follow that rule
 
12:24 AM
@EtiennedeMartel No need to assume people are dumb
@NikiC Worst cases: MFC, ASP.Net, Qt
 
Nice talk by uncle bob on the topic: vimeo.com/43612849
 
OT:
<rant>I love PoCo, have used it before. These days I gravitate to Boost instead, since compiler support is becoming ubiquitous. This problem is my definition of a intrusive/restrictive framework: simple things become hard to do. Defies the value of a good programmer sometimes.</rant>
This exemplary quote taken from this answer which concerns PoCo, one of the C++ frameworks that is surprisingly un-intrusive, most of the time
 
Note to self: When working, if you think it's amazingly simple to actually work - it will work, you dumbass.
 
@DomagojPandža what d'ya say, we both get some sleep and start over tomorrow morning?
 
@sehe Sounds like a plan, I haven't been this tired since... Hell, last week.
 
12:28 AM
:) Sleep well, take care
@NikiC cya around
 
You too! =)
 
@sehe Was that the right ping?
 
y no interestin TV on atm
oh hai domagoj
 
The Dominator.
 
there's an amazing amount to specify when you do a new language
way more than I had previously imagined
 
12:43 AM
Time to sleep
Good night everyone
 
nn
 
@DeadMG Maybe that's why they're generally left to committees.
 
nah, that just makes it take longer since everyone bitches about their own version of what it should be
sides, I have had the robot throw me a few DRs which did help
 
1:12 AM
do Mac and Linux have buttons akin to the Windows Restore button?
 
@DeadMG I can't speak for Linux, but OS X doesn't.
 
k
 
@sehe are Boost Asio libraries really as portable as it claims to be?
.. especially with networking?
 
2:05 AM
Oooh yeah, no work tomorrow.
 
gz
 
2:16 AM
I always knew you were stupid.
 
Hi, I'm starting with Qt and tried figuring out QTcpSocket, but I don't really understand the "Fortune Client Example" from the documentation, since it contains lots of things that don't seem very relevant to making a simple TCP socket.
Does anyone here happen to know a simple example of making a TCP connection with QTcpSocket?
 
@HiddenKnowledge I'm afraid none of us here has actually used Qt enough to help you.
 
That's okay. Too bad there's no room for Qt itself.
 
You'll have to whip out your Google-Fu.
 
Yeah, I tried that, all the examples I found were outdated..
Other than the one on the official site, which I mentioned earlier.
Well, I'll go and.. try harder, I suppose.
Thanks anyway! :D
 
2:32 AM
well, it is 03:31
 
@DeadMG 22:33 here.
 
04:33 here, perfect time for coding.
 
very true,but our contentinental American membership is relatively limited
@HiddenKnowledge For some reason, I agree.
I just get more done in the dead of night.
 
Indeed. This room is almost entirely European.
 
wow 22:33, that's my timezone
 
2:34 AM
@DeadMG Same :D
 
I'm in Toronto though
 
@KenLi Montreal here.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Is Montreal in Quebec?
 
are there still those students on the streets?
 
@DeadMG Largest city there. 1.6 million people, or 3.8 million if you count the metropolitan area (so, more than half of Quebec's population reside in or around Montreal)
 
2:35 AM
thought so
was about to respond that you were in Quebec, and I just had this moment where I was like, "Is Montreal even in Quebec?"
 
Quebec's politics is somewhat really screwed up
but that's a talk for another day
 
whose isn't?
 
@KenLi Yeah, we got a great PM.
@ScottW Oh, so you got less racism?
I mean, compared to American networks.
 
@EtiennedeMartel 12-14million in London.
 
@DeadMG Yeah, you guys are tightly packed.
 
2:38 AM
Tokyo is estimated at >35million too
 
Tokyo has a outright racist Mayor btw, the kind that would be unelectable in Canada
interestingly enough
 
We all have our own issues, it seems.
 
not that Toronto have a really good mayor
@EtiennedeMartel are you French Canadian?
 
@KenLi Oui.
Although I prefer the term "Québécois".
 
ah, I've got a co-worker who's a French-Canadian, he calls himself French-Canadian too
 
2:42 AM
why would anyone wish to associate themselves with the French? :P
 
@DeadMG It's kinda part of our heritage, ya know.
 
idk, French in Canada almost always refers to the language, not France
 
eh
I don't see the point in heritage
our leaders are always wanking off about how British action XYZ is, but I genuinely don't see the benefits
I'd rather just take the most effective action every time
maybe that's just me though
 
Anyway, France is mostly an economic partner now. But it's not like we can ignore the fact that most Québécois directly descend from French people.
 
Another intersting fact is that only in Quebec you see stop signs as "Arret", in France the sign says "STOP"
 
2:45 AM
@EtiennedeMartel Why not?
if I had to define a property of a person even more irrelevant than the tract of land they were born on, I'd probably have to go with the tract of land some ancestor of theirs was born on
 
@KenLi They don't feel like they're in any danger of being assimilated. Plus, they think English is "cool".
 
@ScottW hahahaha, that scene is epic win
 
@DeadMG It's got something to do with culture. I think you have to be proud of your culture. Not too proud, mind, I hate people who go on and harp about how much better they are, but still proud enough to spread it. Because a culture is a different view about the world. And we need as many points of view as we can possibly get.
 
I agree that more points of view is great
but I don't see at all what having your ancestors born in random tract of land XYZ has to do with it
 
Because it's what makes us so much different from the rest of Canada.
 
2:50 AM
anywhere where you have millions of people, disagreement and points of view are trivial to come by
 
Or, rather, it's the starting point.
 
right
but why is that important?
 
Because we're 7 millions of French-speaking people surrounded by 350 millions of English-speaking people.
 
congratulations (?)
 
I feel like we have to fight to protect our culture, to make it still relevant.
 
2:53 AM
see, that's the key point that I don't get
why should it still be relevant?
cultural evolution is critical
holding on to the culture of the past has done nothing but stagnate the world for thousands of years
nothing is better than throwing something out if it doesn't work, cultural or not
 
That's seeing culture as a tool and nothing more.
 
it's a tool now?
 
Well, I don't know, you seem to think that way with you talking of "work".
 
oh, right, but that's for any arbitrary practice, nothing specific about culture
I mean, what purpose does culture serve, really?
 
I still feel that when a culture disappears, we, as a species, lose something.
 
2:56 AM
@EtiennedeMartel That's why we have the Internet? :-P
 
yeah, we lose people who think that it's horrifying that our government should allow gay marriage
 
@DeadMG Arts, mostly.
@DeadMG I like how you take the worst of something and manage to generalize it to the whole thing.
 
cultures disappear everyday actually, I certainly don't miss Latin not being spoken anymore
i'm sure some people do
 
@EtiennedeMartel As far as I can tell, it's basically the only impact of plenty of our British heritage.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I guess DeadMG is making the point that some cultures are probably not worth keeping.
 
2:58 AM
cultural evolution is no different to species evolution- yes, each culture is interesting, but it doesn't need to exist, and having one die out is just the way things go- and it should, and indeed, must, happen, for newer, better cultures to emerge
 
Hah, I figured it out! :D
 
@HiddenKnowledge Enlighten us!
 
unless you include spending a whole bunch of our money to fix up these ancient buildings that serve no useful function
 
Seems like I needed a * after QTcpSocket.
 
@DeadMG Sure, but I wouldn't want my culture to be replaced by the Americans'.
 
2:59 AM
No idea why though xD
 
@HiddenKnowledge That might be a sign that you haven't actually figured it out (yet).
 
@HiddenKnowledge Probably because Qt needs pointers everywhere?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Probably.
@Insilico True.. But yeah, atleast it works now.
:)
 

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