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12:11 AM
[landed]
hello James
hello Captain Giraffe
hello DeadMG
hello Drise
hello @all
^ I think maybe I completed the first chapter, about binary representation of integral types
 
@CheersandhthAlf Hello sir! Also, not found for the doc.
404 error
 
@CheersandhthAlf bahahah Hello
 
@NicoBellic Works fine for me.
 
There we go. @DeadMG that's weird. First link didn't work for me.
 
12:14 AM
oh sorry, the "bastard" at the start is from an earlier discussion here
i forgot i put it there
 
alf
you forgot char8_t in the integral types list
 
oh?
i just used the Holy Standard. lemme check...
 
@CheersandhthAlf Do you have The Donald book on this?
 
yep
 
"about this book jgkjhgb"
 
12:16 AM
@CaptainGiraffe in storage, not accessible
 
Very good, Nice;y done
 
@CheersandhthAlf I see you're refraining from the base 3, +2 0 -1 representation =)
 
ok, checked. @deadmg: it's missing in 3.9.1/7 also, so maybe isn't built-in?
 
@CheersandhthAlf Pretty sure that it should be defined exactly equivalently to char16_t and char32_t, for std::u8string
but maybe I'm just remembering wrong
 
@DeadMG oh, UTF-8 string literals don't have their own type. i don't know why. it was discussed both before and after the standardization.
 
12:20 AM
huh
 
yes, my reaction exactly
:-)
 
could have sworn I'd seen a char8_t which was in the same bundle
 
Everytime I see a programmer meme post on websites, I somehow imagine a 13 year old boy who knows how to display a string on the console.
 
maybe just from a previous draft or something
 
@CheersandhthAlf I like what I'm reading.
 
12:20 AM
yeah
next piece of feedback: your code samples are WAY TOO BIG
pages and pages of ur code -> I skipped reading them all
 
@DeadMG Don't be too quick on that.
Deitel, now Alf is not Deitel, but they use page after page.
I find Alf's better.
 
weird, I run Nuance's command line tools, I see a few lines on the console. I run it again with >results.txt pipe, and I get the same few lines on the console, and results.txt contains completely different info I hadn't seen before. I'm confused.
 
well, TBH, I have Windows Calculator which can convert between bases for me
 
I thought the > would redirect console output to the file?
 
All you need is an exercise after pretty much each paragraph.
 
12:24 AM
I don't need to see a listing of 0-15 in binary, octal, decimal, and hexadecimal
and the program which generates it
 
@DeadMG reason for the exercise.
 
fail Nuance!
It's looking for files in the CWD even when given an explicit complete path/filename.
 
@CaptainGiraffe that's a lot of exercises...
 
nybble = nibble, I learned nibble back when I was 12 (had not learned english at the time=) Exercies are good for both you and them. I'd be happy to help you with a few.
 
I found a specific commit from two months ago that causes this compiler to segfault under certain conditions. I think it segfaults when I import certain modules, but I'm still narrowing it down. Can I consider that a regression?
 
12:38 AM
well, it is somewhat difficult to call it a regression in your own code when it causes the compiler to segfault
but on the other hand, you also can't continue with that code in your codebase, so you might be forced to
 
@Maxpm Probably just a library deal. Or MG's response
 
@DeadMG I was referring to the severity of the compiler bug.
 
@Maxpm Oh, are you the compiler implementer?
 
@Maxpm Might well be your distribution.
 
@DeadMG I wish. This is a fresh Git checkout of DMD, using the libraries from the most recent binary release. I didn't use my distro's package manager.
 
12:42 AM
lol D
sorry
 
@DeadMG Did you see the 5min page job on the gamx project?
 
@JamesDyson Who where and what now?
 
@DeadMG Me, on a website, thats abit rude xD
 
no
why would I see random game project XYZ?
 
@DeadMG I dunno
 
12:47 AM
me neither
I have now, though
 
@DeadMG xD
 
if I were you
I'd go for an almost Garry's Mod-style player creativity options
people are gonna love building catapults to fight each other
 
Are you going for a creation system like Second Life's?
 
@DeadMG The whole point of the game is to be as customizable as possible so Im sure they could make a bloody computer if they had the materials and the skills
@Maxpm Never played the game
 
yeah, but that's not very interesting.
 
12:49 AM
Explain?
 
have you ever seen Minecraft computers?
they're slow as fuck, impossible to program, and good for nothing
it would be much simpler to just provide a scripting element to allow players to automate tasks
 
There bloody big and annoying
 
what people want is classical physics
 
@DeadMG THATS ITS! THATS WHAT I MEAN!
 
build a catapult
 
12:50 AM
@CaptainGiraffe thanks!
 
what's the difference between int and size_t?
 
@JamesDyson It's not really a game. More of a virtual world. Complex objects are constructed out of linked "prims," or primitive shapes. Link sets can optionally be made "physical," which applies physics to them. It has its own scripting system called LSL. People do some pretty amazing stuff with it.
 
@Maxpm Yes and no There would be goals as a race and challenges
 
@NicoBellic there are many differences. int is signed, size_t is unsigned. int is of the natural size for the platform (except in Win64), while size_t is guranteed to be able to represent all the positive values of ptrdiff_t, which is the type of a pointer difference.
 
@Maxpm The whole point of the game is that its not limited. But instead of in 2 mins finding diamand and making a house it would take more time. In mine craft your can make a nuclear reactor in a few days
And eventually if it happened (making rockets) you expand the known universe on the server (or just create new maps)
@Maxpm its far fetched but its not only possible, it would be bloody fun
The world would not be blocks
And if you were skilled you could make new objects and define their use so ever time someone entered "your" territory it would load these new objects. But to make the objects you need the materials and depending on the size would depened on how much you had
People would make, in the first few days weapons and in the human nature they would try to dominate other people
 
12:58 AM
Some of my friends and I were going to work on a similar game, but more centered around space.
 
@Maxpm Were? or are?
@Maxpm Cause I need help lol
 
Both. I got a small team together a few months ago, but we decided to put the project on hold because school kept us too busy.
Recently, my other friend (who goes to a different school) explained his plans for his own game, which was similar to the one we were planning.
 
@Maxpm You should totally help me lol
 
fuckery, it's hot here
 
@DeadMG faece matter
 
1:01 AM
@JamesDyson I'm actually not that good of a programmer.
That's it, the cat's out of the bag.
 
are you going to be insulted if I'm not surprised? :P
 
@Maxpm Hey neither am i at this stage but you don't learn doing nothing xD
 
@DeadMG Not at all. I would be surprised if you were surprised.
 
@Maxpm Hence I need help bahaha
 
@JamesDyson Pfft. Real men go it alone and learn ALL THE THINGS the hard way.
 
1:03 AM
@DeadMG lol, is that an insult or a joke?
 
Well, all three ideas seem really vague to me, so I'm not sure if they're merge-able.
 
@JamesDyson Mostly a joke. You can take it as a tiny bit insult if you want.
I'm flexible that way
 
@DeadMG Nope I ill take it as well constructed criticism
@DeadMG Howd you learn?
 
by doing exactly what I just suggested
 
You should totally check out Second Life, though. LSL is what got me into programming.
 
1:05 AM
@DeadMG No, howd did you learn? did you go to uni on a programming course?
 
You learn by investigating. Questioning everything. The harder the path, the better you'll remember. The brain likes to remember nasty stuff, use it to your advantage :P
 
@JamesDyson No, really. I went off and found this site and ASKED ALL THE QUESTIONS and got ALL THE ANSWERS and attempted ALL THE PROJECTS.
 
@DomagojPandža Thats how ive learnt what ive learnt so far.
 
technically, I also took a CS course at university, but it's a gigantic pile of shit worth nothing, and certainly contributed nothing of value to my current position.
 
I don't know why people reference unis and programming courses. Those things are the worst sources of "knowledge". It's plain automatization and useless crap.
 
1:07 AM
@DeadMG Was your CS course actual CS, or was it programming?
 
@DeadMG why do we NEED TO USE so many BIG JUICY CAPS :P
 
@Maxpm I wouldn't really define it as CS or programming. It was almost 100% junk.
 
What was a typical assignment?
 
@JamesDyson X ALL THE Y is a meme. Its like, "Why did you mis-spell "why" and "you" and have poor grammar when saying "y u no do XYZ"".
@Maxpm Most of it was examinations. Like, "What is the Unicode codepoint for e with some accent?" examinations.
 
@DeadMG That's...really weird. o_O
 
1:09 AM
@Maxpm That's really fucking "I can't believe I paid money for this shit and staked my future on it".
 
I wonder how long it will take for schools to teach things that can't be learned from the Internet.
 
If you're set on going to a uni, computer science or software engineering, master the craft on your own and go study mathematics/physics.
Far more valuable.
 
@DomagojPandža Could really have used that advice at 17 years old. :P
 
If you're spending 5 years of your life, that is.
 
@DeadMG shouldn't they be complete?
 
1:15 AM
@CheersandhthAlf No. They should be exactly and only what is necessary to get the point across.
you can declare and add a couple comments for functions whose implementation is obvious, or the user should complete as an exercise
 
I'm still thinking about investing in 690s, but somehow I feel Nvidia rushed the shit out of them.
Have to wonder how 7990 will look like.
 
investing in them?
 
Buying a pair, I'd like to switch to Nvidia's camp, from my HD6990s. But their price is intense, $2000 a piece.
 
@DomagojPandža The 7970GE is performance competitive, on average, with the 680, but it's louder and draws more power. If that trend continues for the 690 and 7990, it's a bit of a toss-up.
generally, the advice right now is to look at your specific use cases
the card's performance is equal average, but definitely not for individual games, for example
 
1:19 AM
Hardcore processing on the GPUs
I buy once a year, tend to get what's the best thing out there.
That's why I'm thinking about seeing AMDATI's response.
Last year, Nvidia was late. Now, they're first. But 3072 CUDA cores sounds nice.
590 was what, 512 per core?
 
dunno
but my advice is wait for the 7990 to come out
I'm feeling poor now with my single 460GTX :P
 
It somehow feels that Nvidia is using the early launch with no 7990 in sight to push the prices to ~$999. Probably going to crash them in order to compete with 7990 later this year.
Otherwise, it's a lost battle.
 
honestly, if you're going for hardcore GPGPU, I'd look more at the software tools available
GPGPU languages and tools are a bit of a bitch to work with, in general, and I'd pay a couple percent performance loss for things like, being able to throw exceptions from the GPU.
 
It's a mess, yeah. But HD6990s with 3072 stream cores each really give a nice push, especially when working on tiling a deferred renderer. Trying to keep it in multiples of 64, wavefront and all that.
 
well, if you're looking for the next generation, you'll really have to wait for the 7990 to come out
hard to do anything but speculate at this point
 
1:28 AM
It's always curious to me how they try not to reveal anything. Some press statement about even the top level details would be nice.
And I really can't see the logic behind Nvidia's launches. 590 came after 6990, 690 comes before 7990. When do they get the time to develop them properly?
Or has the whole industry turned from progress to iterative pushes for profit?
 
no
it's because AMD did a more dramatic re-architecture
think of it like Intel's tick/tock
nVidia is on a tock, and AMD is on a tick, I believe
or maybe twas the other way around, I always get it confused which is which
the point is that nVidia's architecture and fabrication processes are more mature, so they have a shorter turn-around time right now.
 
Yeah, there is that. Still, the timeframe is a bit narrow. You can have the technology right now, but you need supply the customer with reasons to buy. I make my own reasons, as a developer and a gamer in free time, but - people are going to need more incentive to give something a shot every 6 months.
 
absolutely agreed
but check this out
Battlefield 3- a non-trivially popular game
AMD, what, 30-40% improvement this generation?
 
Well, that is a good push. But the 680 is a beast for a single GPU.
 
same story for Starcraft 2
as long as they keep pushing those FPS counters up, people will keep paying for those upgrades
 
1:37 AM
Good statistics, but MSAA is a burden, huge depth buffer on 2560x1600
Turning to more modern techniques like SMAA would do wonders.
Screenspace is a good place to be.
 
now if only AMD could be as competitive with Intel on the CPU front as they are with nVidia on the GPU front
 
They fucked up big time when I was buying my i7 processor. It was so bad, I forgot the name of the "competing" series.
Bulldozer or something
Bulldozed AMD's reputation, only.
But it is good they're keeping afloat.
 
Just finished all of Bastion's "Who Knows Where" challenges. Damn.
 
AMD is betting the farm on their Fusion CPU/GPU technology.
 
AMD can definitely use some help on their CPU side...
 
1:42 AM
They had a shitload of cores, but the work they placed in making those cores proper and playing along with the rest of the architecture was shameful.
 
but it's way too soon to be putting your business strategy on that, GPGPU is way too immature
 
It should be a tight experiment on the side, but not the future of a company in that regard.
GPGPU has a long way to go, it is a brilliant approach and has lots of applications, but we need to get around actually making it less of a pain in the ass.
 
agree
 
One of the things I dislike around Intel, not to bash too much on AMD, is their bloody "hyperthreading" approach.
 
GPGPU is a completely different programming paradigm which - is not as easy as what we're used to.
 
1:45 AM
well
truth be told, many of the tools are just immature
 
Stupid Windows recognizes it as 12 cores. It's a joke similar to iOS's multitasking.
 
AMP is sweet, but it's still bound by the limitations of DirectCompute
come back when GPUs can do slightly more complex tasks, such as parsing.
or, hell, even just lexing
 
I think parsing has some degree of inherent sequentialism to them.
 
GPUs were brought up to programmable depths with the advent of hardware shading, sure it allowed a lot of nice fp calculations to be done in parallel but it's still too young and too limited, hell, it still manually unrolls loops and the mess with clever conditionals. But if you have a bunch of data to process that doesn't depend on each other and can bear the cost of transferring it to the GPUs, you'll love it.
 
@Mysticial Yes, of course it does.
but not parsing 10,000 files.
 
1:49 AM
@DeadMG That's true. Basically you need GPU cores to be able to do independent branch paths.
 
@Mysticial They already can do that- just slowly.
what I'm really talking about is tree structures on the GPU which you can easily transfer to the CPU, and much less bounds on recursion.
 
@DeadMG They wait. Until the other threads are done with branch A, then they execute branch B.
 
oh, ok
 
Per-core functionality must be increased in that regard, but not in a way that it generates a new piece of hardware. PPUs failed for precisely that reason.
 
I thought PPUs failed because nobody needed them.
 
1:51 AM
The hardest part of GPU programming is being to design an algorithm that's massively parallel and not bound by memory.
 
Well, if they had been integrated, people wouldn't mind them. They'd welcome them.
 
@Mysticial IIRC, the memory bandwidth of a GPU is actually fairly high, and it's mostly memory latency that sucks.
 
It's a shame when we have to see the potential in something that has been developed for over a decade in a totally different direction. Fortunately, the strive to unify vertex and pixel shader pipelines with 4.0 was a step in the right direction.
GPU memory bandwidth is huge.
 
if you were performing an effectively one-off job like, say, lexing 10k input files, I don't think the memory would be problematic.
 
@DeadMG Within the GPU it's pretty high. But not to main memory.
 
1:52 AM
But the cost comes with the stuff in main memory that needs to leap over.
If the processing power outweighs the memory latency, then you have a winner.
Otherwise, by the time it goes over, you could've done it on the CPU.
 
So if I have a task that needs 64GB of memory. That won't fit in even a high-end GPU. So you have to go to main memory - which is slower than CPU <-> main memory.
 
@Mysticial Very true.
 
The next step is linking making a peace treaty between main memory and video memory.
 
That's one of the main reasons why I've never seriously attempted a GPU version of my Pi program. The main size of GPU is pathetic. 4 GB at max compared to 100+ GB ram on a workstation.
 
Then expanding.
 
1:55 AM
It's already bottlenecked by CPU <-> ram bandwidth. Forget GPU... computation is free. Speed = # of memory accesses.
 
The discrepancy between processing and memory is becoming more apparent with every passing year.
 
very much so
SSDs have helped that, I think though
for one, paging to the disk is not quite as dick slow with an SSD, and secondly, they've caused much more investment in solid-state memory techniques
 
@DeadMG I never dared to run a serious computation on an SSD... they'll die very quickly.
 
you know
 
I've lost one SSD already. And I never did anything unusual to it.
 
1:57 AM
it occurred to me that this coming Christmas, this machine will be three years old.
 
Data-oriented design is gaining steam, but we need changes. What's the point of being capable of processing so much stuff when you can't even get the stuff in there fast enough? Clever data mapping will only get us so far.
 
@Mysticial The earlier SSDs were not very reliable. The newer ones are much better in that regard.
usually I replace machines every three years
but i7 930 is going fine for me
 
@DeadMG I had two SSDs, 1st gen (write bricking), and 2nd gen.
My 2nd gen died.
My 1st gen is still going strong.
 
and a new GPU and new RAM might well cut it for another couple years
@Mysticial Manufacturing defects happen to all hardware.
 
SSDs are a step in the right directions. Now reliability needs to be improved. I can only use them for bringing tools online fast, like 3ds max and Zbrush, or games.
And then pricing. It needs to go mainstream, fast.
 
1:59 AM
@DomagojPandža Less than $1/GB now.
 
@DeadMG That I'm too aware of, especially with hard drives. (I have about 30 of them in my dormroom right now.)
 
and with the floods in Thailand destroying many of the conventional hard drive manufacturing facilities
SSDs aren't that much more expensive than regular mechanical drives anymore, even gigabyte for gigabyte
 
oh, the floods in Thailand fucked up conventional HDD production.
 

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