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5:00 PM
@sehe everytime I search something, I search for questions
 
@BilltheLizard The meta question we're talking about is a comprehensive review of highly-rated questions that a particular person decided were astray of the guidelines. I forget if they had moderator status, but that's "being a moderator" in any case.
 
that is just the natural way to do
 
@bamboon If they had good content people would read them.
 
nobody is gonna check tag wikis in the first place
 
@thecoshman No. We tunnel it over a clandestine server so that we can observe it from our workplace :)
 
5:00 PM
@BilltheLizard You can easily delete anything here, don't reshape it into irrelevant notion worth of accumulated ginging.
 
@Potatoswatter That's a list of top-rated questions that the community frequently complains about. That's not a moderator's personal hit list.
 
Something that should be pointed out; I've commented in the meta post that the C++ list is one of the best maintained lists around, while I don't like list questions per se, I believe it's valid to keep. A huge problem is that if that post stays, then it serves as a justification for every other book question (all of which are more than likely infinitely more crappy) that comes along.
 
@Potatoswatter those guidelines are now NOT what they were then, arbitrary things are being introduced all the time, to keep to that smug notion of "cleanliness".
 
@DzekTrek What is that anyways. A visual studio plugin? Reshaper?
 
@bamboon How do you think people find content on SO at all? 90% of it is through Google.
 
5:01 PM
It's not a matter of anyone having a problem with the C++ book list question, but the type of question, as it almost always generates such crappy content, which the community doesn't want.
 
@sehe VS Resharper 4.0#
 
@DzekTrek I think you missed a point there?
 
@BilltheLizard "These are basically all of the highly-voted questions on the first "Most Votes" page that, if asked today, would quickly be closed as Not Constructive (this is not a complete list):"
 
So the reason that @BilltheLizard and @RobertHarvey (and myself to some degree) are in here is to try and salvage that content as it's recognized that particular instance is good content.
 
@casperOne then why does it exist?
 
5:03 PM
@BilltheLizard yeah, probably, but I think questions are just easier found than a tag wiki, because questions have a headline. I google because I look for a good book, -> "best c++ book" and not to read a whole c++ (tag) wiki entry
 
@casperOne well, then the crappy content should be moderated and not the type of question asked
 
@sehe Nah, I just used more sarcastic approach.
 
@BilltheLizard So, these are not the result of actual flags, but a speculative projection of what the community would flag if they flagged according to the guidelines in the mind of OP.
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion That's too hard.
 
@thecoshman This is what everyone is talking about now. Because the C++ community is... Vocal, shall we say, when actions like this are taken on what is perceived as "their" content (I'm not being dismissive, but as a group, you are highly protective of certain things).
 
5:03 PM
how to attract ALL THE MODS, talk about deleting things :P
 
@bamboon What difference does it make if the exact same content is in a tag wiki or strewn throughout dozens of answers?
 
lol @TonyTheLion
 
@Fanael how is that too hard??
 
@Potatoswatter No, these are posts that people frequently flag.
 
@TonyTheLion Yes, but moderation happens on all different levels. There are flags, 10K abilities, etc, etc. Diamond mods are not the ones to handle this issue, and if the users aren't doing it on an overwhelming basis, then we look for other solutions, either through diamond moderation, or automated means.
 
user784668
5:04 PM
@TonyTheLion It's much easier just to delete everything than to moderate it, you know.
 
@BilltheLizard if it doesn't make a difference, then why move
 
@BilltheLizard This is essentially the difference between a dictator rigging an election and having actual democracy.
@BilltheLizard If they are, that's not what OP claimed they are.
 
@casperOne seeming as the C++ community is clearly so proactive, why not take what we do as the guidelines on the rest of the site. Clearly, it works well for us, and the others just don't have the number to sustain such a well maintained system.
 
You guys have done an exceptional job on that particular post. It's every other post that's the problem. If we had a close reason "not as good as the C++ book list question", I'd gladly use it.
 
@casperOne well, maybe there should be some more encouragement for users to do this. I don't know, give rep for a good mod or something
@casperOne ohhh, :)
 
5:05 PM
perhaps if if was 'set up' for other areas, the community support for it will come
 
@DzekTrek some day you got to explain to me how removing the intentional typo and/or adding '4.0#' makes it sarcasm?
 
@TonyTheLion Mods don't need rep, all due respect, and I've not cared about it for a long time. We are measured by completely different metrics.
 
@BilltheLizard because, when I google something, I have thousands of entries in google, I click the first, if there is no hitting headline, I am gonna click return in like 1 second, that is what happens when you get a big long text site of c++ tag wiki stuff, but when I do immediately see a list of c++ books, I am gonna think, cool I am gonna check this stuff out
 
@casperOne talking about the "users" that can do this moderation...
 
@TonyTheLion You have meta for this. However, the C++ group is... Shall we say... Not as active on meta?
 
5:06 PM
@sehe some day, my friend, some day.
 
@casperOne we have our reasons...
 
@AlfPSteinbach Because it does make a difference. That content isn't a good fit for Q&A. Honestly, it belongs on Wikipedia. I'd rather keep it here on one of our own wiki pages so this community can keep it up to date.
 
user784668
@casperOne Some of us cannot possibly be active on meta. Me included.
 
@TonyTheLion That's a question more for meta, to be honest, I despise any tying of moderation abilities to the "game" aspect of Stack Overflow. If you can think of a way that doesn't get in the way of diamond moderation, I'm all for it.
 
@casperOne Well, whose content is it, anyway? Shouldn't it be community property? Primarily, the community?
 
5:07 PM
@casperOne because we are active on the ACTUAL SITE
 
@TonyTheLion I understand you have your reasons, not making light of it at all. There is a fundamental difference in philosophies on certain things, agreed.
 
@BilltheLizard Wikipedia doesn't want lists of good books, or programming style advice.
 
right
 
@BilltheLizard how is a question about good books, and an answer with a list of good books not fit for a QandA site?
 
@thecoshman uhoh, FAQ link coming up
 
5:08 PM
@sehe No, technically, all content is CC-wiki, it's on 99% of the pages of the site.
 
@thecoshman Because what you're describing is a poll not a question with an answer.
 
@casperOne That is the license, not the ownership. I should have worded more clearly
 
@Potatoswatter I said I want to keep it here.
 
a books question about programming is still a question, which has an answer
 
@BilltheLizard We should probably have a deeper wiki, then. One page per tag makes no sense for this application.
 
5:09 PM
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. -- Ronald Reagan, US President
3
 
@thecoshman And that's great and we encourage it, but as I've said to @sbi in the comments on the meta post: you have been given a tool, and a voice, if you choose to eschew the voice you've been given then trying to effect policy through other means doesn't get received well.
 
@TonyTheLion No it doesn't. It has 100 answers, and they're all opinions.
 
@BilltheLizard can you link me to your source, I think I need to find out what you mean be 'question'
 
@sehe You'll have to define "ownership" more clearly. What kind of "ownership" are you referring to?
 
@casperOne @BilltheLizard @MichaelMyers @BoltClock @casperOne @RobertHarvey lets make some committee for submissions in deletion and reactivations of posts that may be crucial for the knowledge provide to the community?
 
5:10 PM
problem is, people see problems where there aren't any and don't see problems where there are obviously problems.
 
@Potatoswatter Waffles is already looking in to that. Read his answer and comments on Robert's Meta post.
 
@DzekTrek That's currently on meta, that's your committee.
 
Will check what is meta about now.
 
@TonyTheLion so true, some people here just think they are cool and wanna change some stuff
 
@Potatoswatter There are obvious shortcomings with tag wikis, this is clear, and people are trying to think of ways to improve the wiki experience. Input is appreciated on this.
 
5:11 PM
@TonyTheLion that's why everything has to go down once
 
@thecoshman Have you ever read the Stack Overflow FAQ?
 
sbi
@casperOne And as I have said to you on that meta posting: You cannot force users to discuss politics, if they are here to discuss programming. You can, OTOH, very well alienate them until they leave. And, guess what, you are currently doing this.
 
@BilltheLizard have you ever actually used SO?
 
the issue is that all these arbitrary rules are a reason for more rules and these than create new problems, which create new rules, and so one day there's so many damn rules, that no one can make any sense of it anymore. Oh, governments are so guilty of this.
 
@casperOne Why not do first things first and provide the framework for a solution before mandating a migration of content into it?
 
5:12 PM
@thecoshman nice one
 
@thecoshman You can look at his profile easily enough.
 
sbi
@BilltheLizard Have you read the newbie hints for this room, before you came here and forced this discussion down our throats?
 
user784668
@sbi: Are you still writing an answer to that question?
 
@casperOne As in code ownership, XP style: the responsibility to make the content quality rock
 
@sbi I respect that you don't want to take a part in politics. But you will experience that everywhere in life if you choose not to engage with the community on matters that you are passionate about within that community.
 
5:13 PM
@DzekTrek That's sort of what participating in Meta discussions and flagging is all about. The community has input.
 
@Fanael please spare us the inflammatory comments
 
@sbi I didn't force anyone to respond.
 
@Potatoswatter That's a topic for meta. I didn't make the choice to do this, the community, on meta is saying very clearly "we don't want this".
 
user784668
5:14 PM
@sehe Better now?
 
sbi
@Fanael Actually I'm done, but I'm enraged, and I have learned that it is often a bad idea to post replies created in this state. OTOH, this warrants an immediate reply, so I am somewhat torn.
 
@BilltheLizard Very well interpreted. Like it.
 
@AlfPSteinbach It was converted to a comment.
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach It isn't. It's just downvoted into oblivion.
 
@Fanael lots. thanks
 
5:15 PM
@AlfPSteinbach That answer isn't deleted. It's a comment towards me. I can see it, it's dimmed, because it's being downvoted.
 
b
huh i don't see the comment
 
@sehe That's on all of you. And by all of you, I mean everyone, not just the C++ sub community on SO.
 
oh. that's not very fair and square discussion, then. :-(
 
@AlfPSteinbach There are no comments deleted, nor is the answer deleted on that thread.
 
@casperOne But c++ sub community is the strongest one in SO by influence and size in general.
 
5:16 PM
@casperOne Please understand that the views of Meta don't reflect the whole community. As I asked before, what does deletion accomplish? Aesthetic purification? Meta seems to see it as an end in itself.
 
@AlfPSteinbach I don't know what you're trying to achieve, but you are misinformed about the status of that post and or comments on that post.
 
@AlfPSteinbach I thought you meant ChrisF's deleted answer.
 
@DzekTrek By influence, it's questionable, as your meta participation is low, and typically, not very constructive. It's very harsh, frankly. We appreciate the passion, not the rhetoric. You are definitely producers of great content, but we can't read minds. And fly-by-night comments and chat discussions don't help cement positions or get things done.
 
any way, as I much as I love hearing about peoples fetish for deleting things for no good reason. I have a life to go home to. I hope you all have fun discussing this issue that has already been decided on. Face it, those questions are as good as gone already
 
@casperOne huh, what are you implying that I'm "trying to achieve"? what are you trying to achieve by such wording? sounds like a politician to me. i gave the link i looked at. it should not be difficult to see the grayed-out answer at the bottom.
 
5:18 PM
@AlfPSteinbach Are you referring to your chat message above, or do you want me to address the comment?
 
sbi
@casperOne I respect that you want everybody to take part in policing the site. But I have tried, and got burned by Jeff. As so many others have. You have become a politician's caste, and you have started to alienate the common grunts answering questions out in the trenches. They don't want to do politics. But they want you to do it right nevertheless. If you fail, they desert.
I can understand that you regret this. That doesn't change the fact, though.
 
@casperOne You have absolutely right, we will need to change something about it. We will join all in together, so can we discuss in our own name on Meta, as I can see that's the place where all crucial things are discussed.
 
@sbi Rhetoric much? Please. I've done much grunt work. So let's not get into that.
@sbi I'm not asking you to police. Never did. Just told you the effects of not participating.
 
@sbi You will never walk alone. :P
 
@sbi As for getting burned by Jeff, I'm a member of that club, too.
 
sbi
5:21 PM
@casperOne Every politician has started as a grunt. So?
 
@sbi I'm not saying that one shouldn't let that influence decisions as to how to participate in the future. By all means.
 
@casperOne Who is that Jeff?
 
@DzekTrek Click on his profile.
 
How and where?
 
@sbi I could ask you the same, so I'm a "politician" as you put it, so?
@DzekTrek I'll leave that for others in this room to help you with.
 
sbi
5:23 PM
@casperOne "...if you're unwilling to participate in the discussion about how this place is shaped, then I'm sorry as your concerns will never be heard, known, and possibly acted on." That's bovine excrements. You heard what I said, you heard my arguments, yet you chose to dismiss them in the grounds that I have posted them in a comment, rather than in an answer, because you cannot hear what's posted in a comment. What bullshit is that?
 
@sbi Thanks for nothing. :)
 
@sbi It's not bullshit. It's simply the way things are. There's no actionable item that will ever come from a comment.
 
sbi
@casperOne So you will have to accept your role — which is to do it right, whether the storms you case by doing wrong, and try to get better. Or you go back making this a true democracy.
 
How many of us, c++ members are here?
and how many mods?
 
user784668
5:24 PM
@DzekTrek 5
 
user784668
@DzekTrek And 69 mods.
 
^ when i open same URL in other tab, it's gone
 
So, we need to be united in order to do something?
 
to my nose, that smells bad
 
Lets choose our leader for this week.
 
user784668
5:25 PM
@AlfPSteinbach It's not.
 
I vote for @sbi
3
 
++sbi
 
@AlfPSteinbach I still see it, but it's 0-scored now.
 
user784668
@AlfPSteinbach It's still there, at +/- 0.
 
sbi
@casperOne Do you even hear yourself? Why is an opinion less worthy because it's been uttered in a comment, rather than an answer? Do you really, I mean really, believe this is not bullshit?!
3
 
5:25 PM
We will discuss about this later on, when mods go away. ~@all ( OK, use all skype )
 
@Fanael oh, now it's back and not even grayed! huh?
 
user784668
@AlfPSteinbach Upvoted back from oblivion.
 
@sbi Yes, and it seems you aren't listening much to me either. I'm not dismissing your opinion, I'm trying to tell you how to get it heard. If you choose to disregard that, then there's not much more I can do to help.
 
sbi
Ok, I'm sick of this abuse. It will probably be deleted for being impolite, but here you go:
0
A: The Great Question Deletion Audit of 2012

sbiI can't speak for any of the other questions, but deleting The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List is about as dumb a suggestion as is possible. This is one of the two question I link to most often, and the uproar in the C++ chatroom seems to confirm my suspicion that this is the single m...

3
 
@casperOne I'm not a politician. Are you hinting at a procedural reason, why the body of decision-makers won't listen to a comment as opposed to an answer?
 
sbi
5:29 PM
@DzekTrek I'm sorry?
 
uh, "blindness"?
 
@sbi yes, you have a point.
 
@Potatoswatter I'm not hinting, I'm saying outright. It's part of the reason you tag posts, you want to give clarification on what the intent is. When you tag on meta, you tag as discussion, feature-request, bug as well as any other items that are pertinent to the post. I'm saying, instead of posting it as a comment, where it doesn't get on anyone's radar (devs, SE, mods, etc) post it as, you know, a post.
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach I was trying to minimize the amount of flagging this answer would get. There used to be a different word. :-/
 
@Potatoswatter It also places a link on the front page, and is something other people will vote up/down on, as well as give feedback on.
 
5:32 PM
@sbi Excellent answer. This is the sort of constructive feedback that actually improves moderation.
 
user784668
@casperOne Assuming they can vote up. Let alone down.
 
@Fanael It's like any other site, build your rep, get privileges. You know this.
 
Just getting one of you guys to actually participate in the Meta discussion was like pulling teeth. You could have posted that two hours ago.
 
@casperOne You're assuming we know how the system works. I've barely participated on Meta. I have no idea how Meta makes decisions, or what decisions it makes. These are topics not covered by the Meta FAQ, as I glance at it now.
 
@Potatoswatter Fair enough. I'll say this, it's like Stack Overflow, but instead of the topic being programming, it's about Stack Overflow (and about the Stack Exchange network in general)
 
5:34 PM
@Potatoswatter Meta doesn't make decisions. It's a forum, not AI: Folks discuss stuff, and vote. Others read it, and act accordingly.
 
sbi
@BilltheLizard Actually, I did just that.
 
@BilltheLizard meta is a dangerous place. I wouldn't advice anyone to go there. It's caused uproar in this room more than once
 
@TonyTheLion And vice-versa
 
@Shog9 Seems right now that it's a political body, and as such takes actions by organizing its members.
 
@Potatoswatter It's not.
And it doesn't.
 
5:35 PM
@sbi Commenting that you're writing an answer isn't an answer.
 
> When you tag on meta, you tag as discussion, feature-request, bug as well as any other items that are pertinent to the post. I'm saying, instead of posting it as a comment, where it doesn't get on anyone's radar (devs, SE, mods, etc) post it as, you know, a post.
 
@BilltheLizard wordplay
 
Posting things to meta to "get on someone's radar" is quite different from Q&A style content.
 
@AlfPSteinbach "I have a wicked good argument that will convince you all of the right course of action, however I lack the space to write it here..."
 
meta violates the Q&A principle of SO then
 
5:36 PM
@AlfPSteinbach No it's not. He literally wrote that he was writing an answer.
 
It sounds like the purpose is to organize and realize direct action.
 
@TonyTheLion Yes, it does. Meta exists to serve a purpose that, when it was hosted on SO, was actively harmful to the site.
 
sbi
@BilltheLizard You have not been pulling teeth here. I was posting an answer, and I had announced that long ago. Your pestering only did two things: First, it delayed this answer, and, second, it made it more scalding.
 
I suggest we delete meta!
4
 
@Shog9 I think we should go back to uservoice...
 
5:37 PM
Posted by Jeff Atwood on June 28th, 2009

What’s the first rule of Stack Overflow Club?

We have this policy not because we are jerks (or at least, not just because we are jerks) but because we believe meta-discussion kind of gets in the way. As the faq explains:

Also, try to refrain from asking questions about Stack Overflow itself unless you absolutely, positively have to. Most programmers don’t come here to learn about the intricacies of Stack Overflow; they come here to get answers to their programming questions. Let’s try to help them out by not cluttering up the system with navelgazing meta-discussion. If you want to suggest a feature or discuss how Stack Overflow works, visit our UserVoice site. …

 
@TonyTheLion Open a meta post!
 
@sbi I only responded to you when you spoke to me directly. I didn't slow you down in the least.
 
> Can someone illustrate what the problem seems to be? Over and over, the best argument heard is "These questions make bad examples". Show me the boat loads of bad copy-cat questions, and I might start to see a reason to move/delete these 'examples'.
Just posted
 
@Pubby I'm not wasting my time on that
 
sbi
5:38 PM
Anyway, I will have to get my kids to bed now. See you later.
 
@BilltheLizard well, perhaps if Meta didn't kick SO contributors in the teeth, said people might be more inclined to participate. But Meta isn't really a nice place to be for those who merely want to make SO a more useful site.
3
 
yep, meta has become a bad omen
 
@jalf Example?
 
Meta needs more improvement than SO
 
user784668
5:39 PM
@casperOne Yes, and that's what makes Meta a big, fat joke. I can't disagree with anyone, because you made it abundantly clear that nobody cares about comments, and I can't vote down, and of course you don't suggest that I have to write a full-blown answer just to say that I disagree with John Doe?
 
meta needs meta rules
 
@jalf I'm all over Meta, and my whole purpose for being there is to make SO better. You know me. You know it's what I'm all about.
 
meta meta! and then meta meta meta!
 
@Shog9 You haven't been around meta much, have you? It shouldn't make decisions, but it certainly does.
@BilltheLizard Yes, but you're the exception, not the rule
 
Let's just all go back to uservoice. Done.
 
5:41 PM
@Fanael a) You can disagree all you want, you just choose to do it in a place that's marginalized. b) You can vote down, but like SO, you have to pay to play, if you choose not to, that's on you (and seriously, how hard is it to get 125 rep, that's rich, coming from most of you who are typically the highest rep users on the site and quite frankly, your vote rings) c) I've never recommended that you don't write a full-blown answer on meta to disagree with someone, it happens frequently.
 
@jalf Meta does little beyond facilitate discussion. That users act on the outcomes of these discussions is intentional, however there's no formal rule for determining when or if a decision has been made.
@BoltClock Quiet, you
 
@Shog9 Meta does little beyond create a subcommunity which encourages harmful behavior, and from whom moderators are recruited, and which, almost by definition, pays more attention to everything and anything that can influence SO
2
 
In other words, decisions are made by those who are more interested in the decisions than in those they affect
@casperOne No
 
well, in my opinion, there are two kinds of people- the people who want to help other people, and the people who want to enforce the rules and get rid of helpful content because they feel it doesn't belong here
2
 
5:44 PM
yes and meta is for the latter
 
@casperOne Honestly, I haven't seen you around much, but what I have seen has been very much "rules for the sake of rules", rather than "what can make SO a better, more useful site"
 
@jalf Well, shucks... I'm at a loss for how to respond to that. You do know that moderators are elected, on the main site, right?
 
@jalf I'm very well aware of what you have seen, and what your opinion is of me. I respectfully say that I agree to disagree on your outlook.
 
seems like elections sucks, just look at politicians, they are also elected
 
@Shog9 They are elected on meta. People who spend their time hanging out on meta see this and react to it. People who merely answer questions on SO do not
 
user784668
5:45 PM
@casperOne It's actually quite hard to get 125 rep, you know. I still have less than a thousand of rep on SO proper, let alone on some site of which I very rarely feel the need of visiting.
 
> @MatthewRead: so "we want to hear the community voice" but... "voting doesn't count". I think it is the community did the voting. Again, someone show me the actual problem we're trying to solve. – sehe just now
 
@jalf Ok... So why don't you spend a bit of time and learn how Stack Overflow works first, and then we can return to discussing Meta. It'll be easier to explain.
 
I see an orange bar once a year telling me to vote, which I close because it's a distraction. Meta users see more or less the same, but to them it's practically their mission in life to participate in it
@Shog9 Don't give me that
 
For the record, at least one moderator was elected before he had even registered a Meta account.
 
@Shog9 Anyone who thinks they completely understand how a site works should stay off of meta
 
5:46 PM
Please, the last thing the meta police needs here and now is that fucking attitude and arrogance
 
@Shog9 I think @jalf knows very well how SO works, some others OTOH are only out for rules and corrupting it
2
 
@jalf Then cut the crap. Your unwillingness to participate in any form of self-governance doesn't extend to the whole of SO, nor does it give you any particular insight into how the site operates.
 
@Shog9 You and I have been around for basically the same amount of time. I have three times as many answers as you, and twice the rep
AND YOU WANT TO TELL ME HOW IT WORKS?
 
@jalf And you don't know how moderators are elected.
 
case closed
 
5:47 PM
@jalf If you continue to demonstrate ignorance, yes.
 
uh, children, now now now...
 
@Fanael Fair enough. That was somewhat subjective, I agree. Rep can be easy to get in certain situations.
 
@Shog9 Yes I do. I don't care which page it is shown on, and I don't see how that makes a difference. My point is that meta users see and act on the moderator elections, SO users do not
hence, meta users are the ones who decide which moderators SO gets
 
@jalf Give me some evidence for this. You've already admitted that you don't even bother visiting the election pages, much less reviewing the candidates. I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to say who participates, when you yourself do not.
 
Meta users who have the power to act on anything on SO are also SO users. Where's the problem?
 
5:49 PM
@Shog9 Er, like what? You could go pull the stats: what is the ratio of meta-to-SO activity among moderators, among those who vote on moderator elections, and among those who do neither, but participate on SO
 
that meta users are making a problem, where no problem is
 
@jalf It's all public data. If you think you have a valid claim that you didn't just pull out of thin air, justify it.
 
SO elections are pretty much popularity contests.
 
@Pubby Most elections are.
 
@Shog9 I didn't say I didn't visit the pages. I do, from time to time, when I notice an election is going on. But it gets more exposure on meta, because quite frankly, it is much more on-topic on meta than it is on SO (because SO is about programming)
@Shog9 I don't need to. It's not my problem. I don't own the site
I don't run the site
I merely post answers and help people
5
If I need to defend that, then you've lost
then SO will finally become a sad shell around meta, for all the moderators to walk around and gloat at the cleanliness and emptiness
 
5:51 PM
5 mins ago, by jalf
I see an orange bar once a year telling me to vote, which I close because it's a distraction. Meta users see more or less the same, but to them it's practically their mission in life to participate in it
 
@Shog9 You're the moderator. It's up to you to make sure the site is running well and the community is satisfied with the site, is it not?
 
@jalf I'm not a moderator.
 
@Shog9 Oh no, you caught me out exaggerating how often I ignore that orange bar. Clearly that undermines every point I'm trying to make...
 
sbi
@AnnaLear You might want to read back on this discussion all the way from the mods storming in here and starting to tell us we#re all wrong.
 
5:52 PM
Ok, this is stupid. Can't you mods decide what to delete without our help?
 
@sbi I've been following the discussion.
 
sbi
@Shog9 Then why is your name in blue and has a diamond to it.
 
@jalf No, your wild, unjustified allegations undermine everything else you try to say.
@sbi Read my bio
 
sbi
@AnnaLear it didn't seem so.
 
@sbi He's an employee of Stack Exchange.
 
5:52 PM
@Shog9 what's the practical difference with "Part-time Adjunct Community Coordinator for Stack Exchange, Inc."?
 
(actually... I need to update that bio)
@AlfPSteinbach I was hired by the company, not elected by the users
 
sbi
@casperOne of course this totally defeats @jalf's argument.
 
You're not a mod but you still act like one?
 
sbi
I will read the kids a story now. afk
 
@Pubby Nope.
 
5:53 PM
@Shog9 Is it a "wild, unjustified allegation" to say that people who spend their time participating in the governance of the site are more likely to participate in the election of moderators, than people who spend their time answering programming questions?
2
 
@sbi not about SO mods I hope? :P
 
@sbi You have a flair for hyperbole, I never implied it did, simply shedding light on the fact surrounding his diamond.
 
I would argue that it is common sense
 
@jalf It's a reasonable theory. It does not, however, support your assertion that moderators are selected by Meta and not by the users on SO.
 
@Shog9 I may not have been 100% literal. I did not mean that every meta user and not a single SO user voted on moderator elections
 
5:55 PM
I'm branding today as "Attack of the Moderators day". It will be carved in stone in the history of this Lounge.
11
 
By the way, lest y'all think I'm being unreasonably pedantic about all this stuff: the employee vs. moderator distinction is important because moderators are elected by the folks actually using the site, while employees are... not.
 
@Shog9 I think you are being unreasonably pedantic about all this stuff. You call my claim a "very reasonable theory", and yet refuse to say I may be right, because it's more fun to nitpick over pedantic details
 
@Shog9 Still, you apparently have moderator privileges, so aside from how you were selected, what's the difference?
 
none
case closed
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion It won't. Jeff will come and remove any traces of it.
 
5:56 PM
@Fanael makes my point all the more worthwhile
 
@Potatoswatter Ah, I'm glad you asked that: the difference is that moderators are elected to use their additional privileges in response to and in service to the community, while I'm granted privileges to use as I see fit.
 
> @sehe If you want to post yet another question about why these sorts of questions should be accepted, be my guest. This isn't the place for it. Make sure you bring something important and previously undiscussed to the table or it will be closed as a dupe
 
@Fanael I don't think that improves the level of discourse any.
 
@Shog9 Once again, moderators are primarily elected by the folks using a different site (meta), and they are mainly recruited from among those who spend a disproportionate time on meta
 
@Fanael Did you really not know?
Posted by Joel Spolsky on February 6th, 2012

Stack Exchange co-founder Jeff Atwood announced that he is leaving the company to spend more time with his family, including his twin daughters Maisie Jane (5lb2oz) and June Adeline (5lb 7oz) who celebrated their 0th birthday (and joined Twitter) last Friday, to the great joy of their parents.

It has been a great honor for all of us to have worked with Jeff over the last four years as Stack Exchange grew from absolutely nothing to a world-changing resource with over 30 million monthly visitors.

When I first met Jeff, I told him that when Stack Overflow was built, it would become a standard part  …

 
5:58 PM
By the way, what are we discussing again? We have something like 5 moderators here, and I'm not sure what it is you want from us. Are we just discussing whether to delete that C++ book thread?
 
user784668
@MichaelMyers It's not supposed to.
 
^^ basically "go away. and don't come back"
 
@jalf that's where it started, I think
 
@TonyTheLion Yes, but where is it now?
 
@Shog9 I'm guessing you're supposed to "see fit" to use them for "community coordination"… and coordination of the community by moderator privileges is different from simple moderation…
 
5:58 PM
BIN ALL THE MESSAGES
This is the C++ lounge :)
 
@jalf We were, until it devolved into matters not related to that question. Also, mind you, the moderators came in here with the intention of trying to save content that we know is valuable to you.
2
 
@jalf Again, this is a reasonable theory, but if you're going to use it to attack or disparage the moderators you owe them something more than "this stands to reason".
 
@casperOne That seems true. They did.
 
@casperOne You don't need to come in here to do that. You merely need to keep your finger away from the "delete" button for a change
 
user784668
@casperOne No, I didn't. Anything wrong with the fact that I don't follow what's happening to some fella I don't even remotely care about?
 
5:59 PM
@jalf I'm here because there was a meta thread that was becoming quite unproductive, and it traced back to this room.
 
@Shog9 I am not attacking anyone. I am saying that the way SO and Meta works now favors those who cares about rules and influence and power, and so they are generally the ones who gain influence and power
 

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