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sbi
9:00 PM
Wow, @Grace agreeing with @Dead! Did I mention she is astonishing?! :) (Yeah, I know about the blog post. So? The name's still "Grace".)
 
@jalf Me too, unless it turned out that what I took for rape was actually much-needed CPR
 
@Shog9 that is not kissing
 
It is still wrong to kiss another person without their consent under the guise of performing CPR
 
sbi
@Shog9 Questions are not humans. You can let them die if they are unfit to survive.
 
9:01 PM
@sbi Have to admit, someone agreeing with me is a pleasant rarity :P
 
@jalf And I wish to stress, I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT actual, malicious edits
 
@Shog9 no, but you are talking about intentionally changing the meaning of something another person said
 
I'm saying, just because the OP happens to think an editor has it in for him, doesn't mean that was necessarily the case.
 
whether you do it maliciously or not is irrelevant
 
@sbi I do prefer people to pick a pronoun and stick to it, so sticking with "she" is quite appropriate and enjoyed.
 
sbi
9:01 PM
@Shog9 Nobody edits consciously maliciously. They all think they do it in good spirit.
 
Just like whether you kiss and grope maliciously, without someone's consent, is irrelevant
 
@jalf Did you read that link I responded to mmyers?
 
But perhaps you could give me a counterexample: when is it ever ok to twist another person's words in such a fashion?
@Shog9 I don't think so
 
There. Examine George's edits.
Determine whether or not they alter the meaning of the question.
 
@Shog9 you're changing the subject
For what it's worth, I don't think they change the meaning
 
9:03 PM
@jalf No, I'm not
@jalf I don't think so either
 
sbi
@GraceNote See, I tried so hard to get my (secondary) point across to anyone knowing enough wondering without revealing the subject to those who have no idea, and then you go and spoil it all by spilling the beans! :)
 
ok
 
Yes you are. What I am objecting to is the notion that it is ever ok to believe that your edit changes the meaning, and still do it
 
@sbi Haha
 
9:03 PM
If George thought he was changing the meaning, then he was wrong in performing the edit
@Shog9 again, doesn't matter. Sure, people misunderstand each others, and sure, you might unintentionally change the meaning, or the OP might think you changed it when most "objective" observers would side with you, the editor
none of that is relevant
 
@jalf And I'm saying (perhaps poorly), if your first concern when making an edit is to preserve the author's meaning (and not to produce a good, useful question) then you might as well not bother.
 
@Shog9 hahahha :D
he edited him again
 
it is never ok to commit an edit if you, when you look at it, think that it would change the meaing of the question
And I fully agree with your allusions to rape before. It's a form of mind-rape. Taking what I said and intentionally turning it into something different, effectively "unsaying" it and replacing it with your own statement is bad. That's all there is to it
 
@jalf Sure. But it's pointless to live in fear. Make the best edits you can, and if the author feels you overstepped, it's a mistake that is easy to correct.
 
@Shog9 yep. But once again, I'm not arguing against specific edits, I'm merely pointing out that that rule must be followed to the best of your ability, no exceptions.
 
9:07 PM
is it allowed to ask questions here?
 
There is no "but this time, it is ok to change his meaning"
 
@MarcoS yes, but they may be ignored, especially since several of us are currently at war. Namely Jalf vs anyone with a blue name.
 
just like there is no "but this time, it is ok to kiss and grope that person against his/her will"
 
@jalf SO isn't your blog. It's not your personal journal, where you pour out intimate thoughts onto a page. Everything you write is CC-wiki licensed - in theory, anyone can take and twist your words off-site, and you can't do a damn thing about it. Avoid getting too attached to what you write here - it's not just yours.
 
@Shog9 The difference is I have the rules on my side
 
9:08 PM
@jalf Only on SO
 
it says clearly when you edit a post that you should respect the OP. What excuse do you ever have for violating that rule?
@Shog9 and, uh, I am pretty sure the CC license doesn't allow you to do that either
It doesn't allow you to take my words, change the meaning of them, and make it appear that I said them
 
@jalf Actually, it requires the original source to be attributed, although you (as the original author) can request this to be removed if a derivative offends you in some way
 
@GraceNote I really hope you're paying attention here, because it is kind of incredible that it is so difficult to explain to someone who wields a lot of power on SO, that he should follow the most fundamental rules, refrain from offending users
 
@jalf i agree with you, but has many questions had their meanings changed?
 
Is it any wonder that some of us find it hard to muster up much motivation for participating in the decision.making process
@AlfPSteinbach no clue
 
9:11 PM
@jalf Where did I say, "Go forth therefore, and maliciously edit posts to offend their authors!"
 
@AlfPSteinbach jalf's point has never been about how many it has happened
It's been about the motivation and undertaking of such an act deliberately.
 
@Shog9 You said, explicitly, that we should not rigidly adhere to the rule "when it is unproductive"
In other words, that there are exceptions to it
 
damnit
 
(So, to answer your inquiry, @jalf, yes, I was paying attention ♪)
 
The rule does not state anything about exceptions. And I don't see any exception that coudl possibly justify something like that
 
9:12 PM
I really need like, a std::pointer<T> which can be shared or unique, as appropriate
there are way too many places in my interface where I'm having to resort to shared ownership
 
@GraceNote is that a grace note, like? :-)
 
Now, the question is really very simple: are you, as a moderator, above this rule? And if you are, what do you ever gain by violating it, and why would you ever do it?
 
@AlfPSteinbach It's an eighth note, technically. Grace Note would be on the left.
I'll also reiterate that I'm still pretty sure that @jalf and @Shog9 are almost inline but their wavelengths are so out of tune that they're saying different things while addressing the same subject. That's how it feels like as a bystander right now.
 
@jalf Perhaps that was a poor choice of words then. My point is simply this: edit to make the post better - don't set out to offend or disrespect the original author, but don't refrain from editing when it's needed out of fear that you might.
 
@GraceNote Commander Data! Fetch the waveform regulation tuner!
 
9:14 PM
I hate, hate seeing these cowardly edits that so often show up on SO, where you get these terrible questions and someone goes in and... fixes a couple misspelled words.
 
@GraceNote I think the problem is that Jalf wants Shog to make a universal statement, and Shog is hedging, because he's not sure that jalf's statement applies to 100% of the universe without exception.
 
@Shog9 I know exactly what you mean.
@MooingDuck I agree with this. The problem is the "almost".
 
@MooingDuck I think the problem was more that one person is talking about intents while the other is talking about results, but they're interpreting the opponent's arguments to be talking of the opposite item.
 
Re-write the damn thing if it sucks. Of course, try to keep the question the same as that intended by the author - but don't leave this angry, ambiguous, poorly-worded crap on the site because you're afraid of "disrespecting" him.
 
@GraceNote I haven't been following closely
 
9:16 PM
@sbi It's in the FAQ: stackoverflow.com/faq#etiquette
 
I never, ever ask myself, when editing, if I'm preserving the author's intent - if I don't know what he's asking, I don't edit. If I do, then naturally the intent will be preserved, even if not one original word remains.
 
@RobertHarvey The problem is that "rudeness" is subjective, and seems to be culturally variant significantly.
especially, there seems to be a big variance between the United States and here in Europe
 
You take your chances. There is a degree of consensus, and some edginess is tolerated, but not all.
 
that's true
 
It's pretty obvious when someone is being rude.
 
9:18 PM
@Shog9 true. But if in doubt, there's still room for other actions: comment, delete, vote to close.
 
@jalf Absolutely.
I consider editing more "polite" than closing, and closing + commenting preferable to outright deletion. But all have their place.
 
I normally go for the "encyclopaedia/what would pointy haired boss think?" approach to style in edits if it doesn't change the substance of the question
 
well, editing when it is percieved as changing the meaning is by far the least polite, IMO. I'd honestly rather have the question deleted and my badges taken away ;)
so you have to factor that in: a "preserving" edit is fine, and by far the most polite option. But if it is seen as a "destructive" one, which alters the meaning, it's seen as pretty damn rude
 
@jalf Then again, you're probably not asking scores of newbie questions on SO either
 
so in those cases it might be better to go for one of the other options, like comments or even vote-to-close
@Shog9 Nope, that's true :)
but a newbie is going to be even more turned off by it
 
9:21 PM
Not saying it's acceptable to be rude to newbs by any means
just that... there are probably some differences in perspective
lotta folks... don't even know enough to know what to ask
 
YOu find this nice shiny Q&A site, ask your newbie question, and someone decides that it is so insignificant and unfitting that it doesn't merely get deleted, no it gets turned into something completely different, at the whim of a vastly more powerful user
And then you never ever come back to SO
 
@jalf That's almost like my experience at cstheory, and I've never been back there.
 
you suss it out, in comments or by posting a successful answer, and edit the question to match
 
I've at least see all the good that has come of SO
which kind of counters the few bad experiences
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey That's just saying "don't be a dick" — which was exactly why I was asking to to define that term.
 
9:23 PM
by the way, you guys ought to buy me a pizza. You've distracted me from cooking dinner for the last 3 hours or something ;)
 
Got banana-nut muffins
 
@jalf Pizza is a terrible idea if you ask me
 
that's what I've been living on
 
You should try something new today, then go back to pizza in a week
 
Pizza is never a terrible idea
2
 
sbi
9:24 PM
@RobertHarvey No, it's exactly how @Dead said. It's subjective, and, despite the overwhelmingly large international audience, on SO this is usually decided according to US standards. (have you actually followed the link I provided?)
 
@GraceNote Rice with peanuts and lamb. :D ( made today )
 
It's been... years since I had lamb last.
 
guys
 
Uhmm... you should really try.. it tastes delicious. :)
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Yeah, but it's only obvious to you. not to the rest of the world. For example, it's pretty common to use the word "fuck" in here, and the wonderful language "Brainfuck" is usually censored to "Bra*nfuck" here, in mock of the (USian) meta police. Nobody here finds this offensive, though Jeff obviously does.
 
9:26 PM
can I have some advices on ownership choices?
 
lamb is great. Problem is it's 10:30 pm now, and I have to get up for work tomorrow :p
 
Also, while speaking of cooking, what would be your recommendation for today/tommorow? :)
 
or are we still in meta-exclusive mode? :P
 
@DeadMG pointer ownership?
 
yes
 
9:26 PM
woah
 
but actually I'm cooking chicken
 
@Jalf, true... :( But we can always shop at nearby restaurant.
 
sbi
@DeadMG Room ownership, shirley?
 
no, I'm looking at pointer ownership
 
give him
 
9:27 PM
@sbi The rules in here are more lax than they are on the main site. This room has its own flavor and culture, as should the Tag Wikis. But the main site proper belongs to everyone.
 
@RobertHarvey are we still talking about those deleted comments?
 
the problem is that I've given out this object from my interface as unique_ptr, so, completely caller-owned
but now I need to get it back
but non-owning
 
@jalf That's what started the conversation, yes.
 
but I'm nervous about taking a non-owning pointer and storing it in what's probably a persistent object
 
@sbi I don't think Jeff has ever been personally offended by language. To him it's just a matter of policy.
 
9:28 PM
I just want everyone to keep in mind that there are already thousands of sites whose main purpose seems to be to be "clean" and child-friendly. SO is practically unique in being useful to programmers. I think such a unique strength has to take precedence. In other words, it should be kept as clean as possible without compromising its usefulness
We desperately need the usefulness. But there are plenty of other places to look if we merely want to avoid the word "fuck" ;)
so sure, clean it up and remove bad words. But if it also means removing on-topic information, then step carefully
 
@DeadMG don't you have to copy in that case? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey So it also belongs to the Iranians, to which women and soccer are a big Nono!, and to not discussing eating during the Ramadan, and never discussing pork? Or isn't it that "everyone" in your USian opinion, is white male middle class?
 
@RobertHarvey I don't. But what if the word occurs in an otherwise helpful answer?
 
@MooingDuck It's a non-copyable object.
 
Then deleting the answer is a horrible idea
 
9:30 PM
well i can relate one story of people being offended here on SO
it was someone who posted some code he had to maintain, written by others
 
what I need is ownership like "Until the other guy destroys it"
 
the code was spaghetti, a mess
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers You think wrongly, then. He has, on several occasions, quite openly said "this not on my site."
 
so what I might do is introduce triggered ownership
 
@DeadMG would making it into a shared_ptr + weak_ptr work?
 
9:30 PM
But if it's a comment, it just gets deleted.
 
@DeadMG and you're going to take a non-owning pointer and store it? That doesn't sound right
 
he asked for evaluation of that code, and i told him it was stupid
 
@DeadMG sounds like a weak_ptr, which means the other guy has to use a shared_ptr?
 
so he was right
 
@DeadMG oh, isn't that weak_ptr?
 
9:31 PM
@jalf Right. But I don't want to force the other guy to use shared_ptr.
 
however, someone following that did not quite grok things, and got the idea i was calling the OP stupid
 
@DeadMG no choice. Thats what strong/weak pointers are for.
 
and flamed up
it continued into this chat
 
@RobertHarvey that's what I'm after. :) As long as the whole thing doesn't get nuked from orbit. Where possible, remove the bad language. But if it's all or nothing, I'd be more inclined to leave in a bad word, than removing useful information
 
resulting in me "ignoring" one person, to this day, here
 
9:32 PM
@MooingDuck other than just a regular pointer which has no special lifetime
 
@MooingDuck Au contraire, I did come up with an alternative scheme
 
@DeadMG Can't you make any guarantees about how long the "other guy" will keep the object alive for?
 
yo!
 
so you could just use a reference or something simple?
 
@jalf Not really.
 
9:32 PM
@awoodland doesn't let you know when the object was deleted
 
but what I can do is use the object's destructor to remove the about-to-be-bad raw pointer
 
@DeadMG pointer-pointer? What was the alternative?
 
it's a trick I've used in other places
 
@DeadMG oh, that works too. I didn't realize you could modify the class.
 
as long as you only have the one "weak" reference
otherwise you'd have to implement something like your own generalized weak_ptr
 
9:33 PM
(that flag is an interesting example of a the problem with chat flags - if it's part of a longer quote then it could be invalid, but finding context is tedious)
 
Hey look, we can talk about C++ here too! Bet you didn't see that one coming
3
 
@jalf I'm kinda surprised
 
@awoodland You can click on the room link to read the context
 
sbi
@jalf Rest assured that it is not your fault.
 
@MichaelMyers The implications from the UI are always that I'm going to click there and then on the spot
"find the context" is not a well integrated part of the workflow
 
sbi
9:35 PM
@Robert: What if some mullah is flagging "pork". Will you delete such a comment, too, because "it got flagged"?
 
@awoodland was that the gay thing?
 
@AlfPSteinbach yes - for all I know the line before said "I don't like that blog, he also said:"
 
yes, context is important
:-)
 
ignoring the declaration dependencies, what do you think of that?
 
@AlfPSteinbach Just pointing it out because of the unusually large number of mods present
 
sbi
9:38 PM
@MichaelMyers That's wrong. The trouble is I need to click on the room link to find the context. That's tedious, which is why many here outright ignore chat flags.
 
@sbi Ayup, and that's fine with me. Usually people can handle flags within their own rooms just fine.
 
@sbi that, and because I really can't imagine any reason for a flag in this room to be valid
 
The problem I have is the UI funnels you towards making decisions without context
 
oh, and because even if it was valid I'd have no clue what to do about it
 
oh we gone back to normal?
 
9:39 PM
@jalf We do have it on occassion, usually for deliberate trolls
 
what can we do about chat flags?
 
@jalf I could post Lenna again, with all these mods here it might get flagged?
 
If you mark them as invalid they go away. I think.
 
I saw something about a 5:1 ratio
 
@MichaelMyers soo, we can make flags go away? Presumably we can do something else too, if we agree with the flag?
 
9:40 PM
we could mention sex
 
sbi
@jalf The other day we managed to get someone something like a 12hrs suspension who was trolling. And one of the mods got flagged about two hours ago for putting his foot into his mouth all the way to the uvula.
 
@AlfPSteinbach nothing wrong with Lenna. That's practically theoretical computer science
 
@TonyTheLion Why does it not surprise me that you would say this?
 
or computer graphics, at least
 
lol I like the tagline
 
9:41 PM
@jalf Agreeing with the flag increments the count, which should eventually delete the message and automatically suspend the user for 30 minutes. Ask @sbi how that works.
 
@DeadMG because I'm predictable as fuck
 
@sbi, ye the one who was really rude. Remember him...
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach How about that dead kitten?
 
@TonyTheLion You missed the "ing" off the end of that sentence.
 
lol
oh nice ass :P
 
9:41 PM
@AlfPSteinbach Fiiuuuuuuuu :D
 
But there was a message last week that reached, what, 8 flags without being deleted? So I'm not entirely sure how it works now.
 
@AlfPSteinbach closing window...
 
it's the original full Lena
 
This room is NSFW
 
oh noes, my children saw it.
 
9:42 PM
@TonyTheLion shush you, it's practically science
 
@TonyTheLion yes, but usually it's less obvious to the coworkers behind me
 
sbi
@jweyrich Aren't you from Brazil? There's worse things they see at the carnival, no?
 
@TonyTheLion no, really
 
9:43 PM
must have been a mod removing that fine picture... lol
 
of course it's science
 
@jweyrich carnevalllll..... Brazilian girls are uhmmmm.... :D
 
sex has been proven over and over again to produce offspring
that's scientific
 
hey mods, it's the standard test picture for image processing, from 197x!
 
wow, Tony, just grab some porn and some tissues and get it out of your system
 
9:43 PM
@MichaelMyers chat flags which get marked invalid need more valid votes to be actioned - I can't find the reference now though.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck If you haven't managed to get a desk with your back to the wall at work, then you're not defensive enough to be programming in C++. :)
 
@TonyTheLion sure, that too. But it's basically the standard reference image for all graphics and image processing
 
@DeadMG wow, I can't believe you just told me to go fap
 
@jalf yea I know that
 
9:44 PM
@TonyTheLion Flag @DeadMG :P
 
@sbi only managers have desks with backs to walls here
 
some perv scientists needed that shit
 
there we go, didn't mean to get the thumbnail too :D
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Contact your local head hunter.
 
9:44 PM
I wouldn't flag it
@DzekTrek I'm not in the business of flagging someone
 
lol, you just called him it :D
 
@AlfPSteinbach Yeah, violating Stack Exchange's content policy is going a little far.
 
@sbi forget that, my managers barely pay attention to me here, the community is awesome
 
sbi
@jalf Why not? You can always blame @balpha for oneboxing Wikipedia links.
 
9:45 PM
@sbi well, because contrary to what some of you might think, I'm not just a troublemaker :)
 
11
A: How many chat flags are required to remove a message/ban a user?

balphaThese are the current numbers ("current" because they can obviously be changed, but there aren't any plans to do so; they have been like this for a while): The threshold is six, meaning the net flag count of the message has to reach six. Net flag count means the number of flags minus the number ...

 
@sbi yes, if you go to the avenues where the carnival happens, you're likely to see painted, nearly-naked people. Maybe something more nefarious. I personally hate carnival, and advise not to take children there during the event.
 
and I know what a pain it is when people post big images here when you're at work :)
 
@MichaelMyers so, what do you do with a question about that standard pic then? i am guessing that your statement has no real substance, and that you reacted solely to what you perceived as skin tones. listen to green day's album
 
sbi
@jalf You wimp! :)
 
9:46 PM
@AlfPSteinbach The 512x512 version is the standard picture. Not the full centerfold.
 
@AlfPSteinbach Terms of Service, man. I don't make this stuff up.
 
meh, why they play Lady Gaga on the radio
:(
 
~all code ...
 
sbi
@jweyrich I'm not fond of carnival either, but if my kids want to see nekkid people, they can do that when they need a piss while their parents take a shower. Or when we go swimming at some lake in the summer.
 
9:48 PM
@sbi actually it's common for US hosted sites. e.g. Facebook removed Andrew Koenig's pictures of skin-painted girls.
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers "I only followed orders" is not something that's going to be accepted in Den Hague.
 
just to bring it back on topic to C++
 
@AlfPSteinbach too hard
 
@sbi Are you guys kidding me with this? Seriously?
It's off topic, so yes.
 
sbi
9:50 PM
@AlfPSteinbach Which is exactly what I said: Right or wrong is decided according to the feelings of the white USian middle class.
 
@RobertHarvey What do you mean, "you guys". There's no great conspiracy. @sbi said that, not the C++ chat as a whole ;)
 
I think deleting has become the latest fad on SO
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey What if this is flagged on the Jewish site?
 
@jalf Well, alrighty then. Can I assume this is just @sbi's opinion?
@sbi I'm not moderating the Jewish site.
 
delete is fairly old in C++, so they're running behind on SO. :P
 
9:50 PM
Ask a Jewish mod.
 
@RobertHarvey beats me. :)
@TonyTheLion In C++ it's deterministic though :)
also god daaamn, I'm hungry
 
I blame the moderators
 
it's all their fault
my university course sucks? Robert Harvey, that is your personal fault
 
9:52 PM
@TonyTheLion oh right, singletons. Didn't someone mention OGRE earlier?
 
@DeadMG Everything's my fault. Just ask my wife.
2
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Sigh. You know you cannot wiggle out of this without looking worse than with straightly admitting. Here we go: Someone explains some CS theory thing to some dumbass using soccer and women as a parable. Someone else flags that, since women aren't allowed to attend soccer games. It's flagged, but not off-topic. So are you going to delete it?
 
@RobertHarvey niiiice
 
@sbi It's a ridiculous flag. If the user is genuinely trying to make a point with an innocuous metaphor, why would I delete it? Also, meh: we never get flags like that.
 
9:54 PM
@jalf Me!
 
...I almost called you "deadbeef" to answer that question.
 
in the spirit of the discussion
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey See, and here, in Europe, we consider censoring BRAINFUCK (Smack!) just as ridiculous as you consider flags regarding soccer and women.
 
oh, that's where you were going with it
you kinda lost me at the pork, I have to say
 
9:56 PM
@sbi Like I said, you take your chances.
 
@GraceNote Called who to answer what question?
 
@DeadMG Called you that, to answer the inquiry of who brought up OGRE
 
ah
 
oh brainfuck
oops, I said fuck
and again...
 
rofl Tony
 
9:57 PM
:P
 
instead you can say fak, fuk, fuc or anything similar. Don't swear.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Yes. But, unlike you said, I'm not taking my chances with the majority of the community, but with the USian white male middle class law enforcers of the meta police. And exactly that was my point way up the discussion. Which was disputed.
 
@DzekTrek Rude is in the mind of the beholder. And when you step in here, then you sign a contract saying that "fuck" is allowed :P
 
9:59 PM
You just did it again. :P
 
@sbi will try to join the chat more frequently. Gotta run now. Literally. See ya.
 

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