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8:00 PM
@jalf Sure we could. On new sites, without enough users yet to vote, we hand-pick the candidates - nominations are just suggestions. But on a site as large as SO, we depend on moderators to represent the community - not the community as we wish it was, but as it is. Or at least as much of an approximation as we can get via voting.
 
@GraceNote Really? Boy, kids these days...
 
if the moderators are being swamped by flags
 
hm, one-boxing didn't quite work?
 
@AnnaLear Problem with that link is that it is written by the same people who elect trigger-happy impatient deletionist moderators. I'm saying there has to be something beyond just "carry out the whims of MSO"
 
8:00 PM
then I guess you just need to physically elect more moderators
 
because MSO does not represent SO
 
@jalf Well, it's not like one of the duties is to "delete ALL the things". :)
 
@jalf It's written by Jeff Atwood, who hates meta discussion and hates Meta Stack Overflow.
 
@AlfPSteinbach It doesn't work on comments, no.
 
@AnnaLear which is why it's such a tragedy when a new moderator gets into his head the idea that "he must delete" ;)
 
8:01 PM
@jalf Believe it or not, "participate on MSO" often gets overlooked when discussing candidates and moderator duties. Some mods don't spend much time there at all... Until someone calls them out for something.
 
@GraceNote oh right, sorry, thought it was a meta Q :)
 
@jalf Which is why I want to go beyond the theory of moderation and talk about more concrete things. :)
 
@AlfPSteinbach Probably deleted because of your inclusion of the word "idiotic." All you have to do is tone down the rhetoric a bit. Being inflammatory might win you points in school, but it will only succeed in irritating your peers here.
 
@GraceNote by the way, I've disagreed with Jeff plenty of times, and I still think I've been right most of the time. But I'll give him that: he was right about meta. I was one of those actively calling for a Meta site, and I guess he was right on that count. :)
 
But thanks for pointing out your follow-on comment (also containing "idiotic"). I have removed that one as well.
 
8:03 PM
@RobertHarvey I used that word about the moderator's action. Not about the moderator. Anyway I doubt that the moderator in question has ESP powers to look into the future and see me identifyng his action "idiotic", thus retroactively justifying that idiotic action.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Did you realize you have just been much more inflammatory that@Alf's comment might have been (which likely referred to facts). I am sure @Alf has left school a few decades before you.
 
It doesn't matter where the word is directed. It's still inflammatory.
 
@RobertHarvey Really? How about looking at the on-topic content? Whether the useful parts contribute positively to the site?
 
@RobertHarvey Cultural difference might play into this, sometimes a lot.
 
Why don't you just delete this room too? We say "fuck" quite frequently here.
 
8:04 PM
@sbi Their profiles both give the same age, as far as that goes.
 
shit, I forgot Alive vs Idra is starting now!
 
@sbi haha yeah, I love rage fights like these, because they are always the sign of a system going down. it's just funny
 
@jalf straw man.
 
> I am guessing that this moderator is a "he", that he is filled up with testosterone, and that he has the intellectual capacity of a housefly
 
Oi oi, let's please not get in a tumult here.
 
8:05 PM
@jalf Great. Now we have to delete the room. And send hit-men to your houses. And probably scrub your mouths out with soap.
 
@MichaelMyers Great quote! I'll put it on the cover of my next book.
 
@RobertHarvey Not really. I happen to think that on SO, factual, informative content is much more important than phrasing. Completely disregarding the former and deleting useful information simply because of bad wording is pretty much what I've been ranting against
 
@RobertHarvey From my point of view, changing history is lying. I just note that you now (by your own admission) engage in that. Evidently without any second thought.
 
If you objected to that word, then remove it. Or if you can't do that, then pester the devs to implement that capability
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Oh well. it was still very rhetoric and inflammatory.
 
8:06 PM
@Shog9 I once stated that UB meant that the compiler vendor could send men around to your house and hit you over the head with a base-ball bat.
 
@jalf If you don't want your content deleted, phrase it in a way that is acceptable to the community.
 
but deleting even once single word of useful, relevant and on-topic information on SO needs a damn good reason
@RobertHarvey Or don't post it at all
 
sbi
@GraceNote Why not? it's in the room's spirit. Where to better get into a tumult than in a lounge?
 
@RobertHarvey Was it unacceptable to the community? Or was it unacceptable to you?
 
8:07 PM
@DeadMG Sounds inspiring
 
Your comment above suggests the latter
 
@jalf All moderator actions are accompanied by a flag.
 
you deleted a comment not because it was flagged, but because you didn't like the word used
 
@jalf Well, except that one. :P
 
4 mins ago, by Robert Harvey
But thanks for pointing out your follow-on comment (also containing "idiotic"). I have removed that one as well.
Yes. Except that one. Which is kind of my point
 
8:08 PM
@jalf I would have deleted it because of the quote above, not because of the word.
 
can moderators edit comments instead of deleting them?
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Did the community flag it?? Or was it just your puritan upbringing wishing it would have?
 
@Abyx yes
 
@sbi Just a personal request. I find that getting infuriated tends to be detrimental to one's health, mentality, and productivity, whether it's in the middle of discussion, work, or even lee time.
 
@Abyx Sorry, that's a non-starter. You would still claim changing history.
 
8:08 PM
Thanks for illustrating. We now have a group of moderators who don't give a flying fuck about the actual purpose of SO. They don't care if the site is useful to programmers, as long as it doesn't contain naughty words like "idiotic"
 
@Abyx Yes. But there is no welb***ing revision history, so there would be the problem of putting words in people's br****ucking mouths.
 
And you were doing so well up until now
 
@Shog9 then why delete whole comment instead of one word?
 
sbi
@GraceNote I tend to find that, too, once I'm down again. :)
 
@Abyx See my previous two messages.
 
sbi
8:10 PM
@Abyx Yes, they can. But why would they, if the comment attacked them (however rightfully)?
 
like to make it "idio*** wrong (fixed by mod)"
 
@MichaelMyers and no one considered just removing the offending word?
 
As long as you guys believe that you are somehow "special," that you are not part of the community at large, and therefore not bound by its rules, you are going to have these kinds of problems.
 
@RobertHarvey I believe I am part of the community at large. I just happen to disagree with you in that I think content is important. You think meta is important
Thus, I'm not convinced that you are part of the community at large
 
Who said that? I didn't say that.
 
sbi
8:11 PM
@RobertHarvey Actually, it was you who thought you were special, and had to delete a comment despite none of the community members flagging it.
 
@RobertHarvey You deleted an entire comment which, for all I know, and given who posted it, contained relevant information, when you could have simply removed the word that offended you
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey We did. As a result of your behavior.
 
You could ask us to disclose the contents of the full comment
 
boys, boys, please... You're all special.
 
@sbi Last time I tried opening my mouth on meta, a moderator completely rewrote my question, and changed the meaning of it. That's like SO etiquette 101, respect the original author. I don't think the problem is my belief that I'm not bound by the rules
 
sbi
8:12 PM
@GraceNote I have seen it. Yes, @Alf was furious. For good reason, though, I think. And @Robert just proved him right.
 
> Page Not Found
 
'tis deleted
 
@GraceNote it doesn't matter to me. If the comment genuinely had no valuable content, that's fine, but @RobertHarvey's reaction of unconditionally deleting an unflagged comment simply because of a single word that *he* found offensive pisses me off
 
8:13 PM
(originally: Out of control moderating)
 
sbi
@jalf Yep. I don't follow all of your reasoning here today, but I certainly follow this one. If someone thought he is special here, it's been the mod, who deleted something despite nobody else objecting to it.
 
@Shog9 does it matter?
 
@jalf I'm curious.
 
Like I said before, everyone screws up from time to time, and I'm generally pretty good at moving on and not holding it against them
 
I see that SomeOne has removed my comment explaining the downvote. That SomeOne can only be a moderator. Given the idiotic action, not just on general grounds of altering history (which is what liars do), but on the grounds of removing information that would be useful to readers, and on the grounds of making me seem to not doing what I advocate others do,...
 
8:14 PM
@jalf And if I told you it was flagged?
 
@GraceNote Then one of you are lying, because Robert just said it wasn't
Well, or he deleted it before he saw the flag, which amounts to the same thing
 
Which comment are we discussing now?
 
I am guessing that this moderator is a "he", that he is filled up with testosterone, and that he has the intellectual capacity of a housefly. Upshot: folks, when comments seem to not quite make sense, likely a dumb mod has been there.
Can anyone tell me how this is even remotely constructive?
 
@jalf Well, I'm not sure which comment we're actually talking about. One was flagged, one wasn't.
 
FWIW, I've re-written posts - on SO and MSO and other sites - in fairly extreme ways, when that's necessary to keep the question from being closed / deleted. A deleted question, no matter how true to the original author's emotions, helps no one.
 
8:16 PM
@GraceNote and it's the one that wasn't that concerns me. :)
@Shog9 sure it does. It gives the author a response to his question. Even if the response is simply "take it somewhere else"
 
btw, all seems OK when you still can see deleted questions and refer them, it looks like not-a-deleted question, but I can't see it.
 
@jalf Well, I'm inclined to believe, since it contained nothing but anger at the deletion of the comment with a downvote, that it didn't have constructive use to stick around.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey If someone accuses you of being dumb because of what you do as a moderator, then doing the same to the accusation is not gonna help your cause at all. I am sorry to say, but if you don't know that, you should step down from the moderator job.
 
@sbi How does that comment clarify the post?
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey It explained the weird state of the discussion thread. (And even if it didn't, it would still be the wrong reaction.)
 
8:17 PM
@GraceNote very likely. I hadn't seen the comment. :)
 
@RobertHarvey I have to back the mod here, it's very likely those would have been flagged eventually. I think he had the right to remove them.
 
@GraceNote Don't try now to pull yourself out, say what you have to say, don't act against rationalism.
 
@jalf If SO exists solely as a means of teaching new users that their poorly-written, rude, and demanding posts buy them trouble, then it does nothing that wasn't already done by plenty of forums and newsgroups.
 
where was that comment posted, btw? Meta or SO?
 
Stack Overflow.
 
8:18 PM
@jalf The comment that was flagged was the one that had constructive information in it - it explained the user's downvote. The second comment was one about how the first one got deleted and has been reproduced by Robert - that one was not flagged.
 
@Shog9 It doesn't. But when I ask a question, I want some kind of closure to it. I don't want my question of "how should I do X" to be transformed into "what does Y" mean, just because a mod thought it'd get closed otherwise
that is hugely disrespectful to the author of the question, and that is why you see a warning against doing it in huge fat letters on the edit page
 
What shall we do about this comment "2113" ? Check on skype. <---
 
@jalf But I would hope you would allow "URGENT: GIVE ME THE CODES FOR X" to be transformed into, "How should I do X". Even if that doesn't quite capture the mood the author was going for.
 
@MooingDuck maybe. And maybe it was fine in this particular case. What worries me is that it fits into a general pattern of meta over content. Of actual contributors having to take a second place to form and ceremony and rules for the sake of rules, and deletions simply because we can
 
@DzekTrek I don't actually understand your advice here
 
sbi
@Shog9 I would prefer to have it close with an explanation. In fact, I close-vote such questions quickly and merciless.
 
@Shog9 Yup, sure. But what happened to my post certainly wasn't that, which is why I brought it up
 
@jalf If you're complaining about the pattern, don't hold up as an example something that was fine "in this case". That's just confusing.
 
@jalf Yes, it's a very important principle. So long as it isn't rigidly adhered to when it's unproductive.
 
@MooingDuck I hadn't seen the comment in this case. The mods posted that later. :)
 
8:21 PM
Part of the cognitive dissonance here is that you guys labor under the incorrect assumption that everything you post on SO is etched in stone. That's just not the case.
 
Well I think this about allegedly offensive words is, just, stupid. Sometimes some code may be just dumb. Then calling it "sub-optimal" or some such inane thing, would be just ... oh well,
2
 
@MooingDuck While completely unrelated to this train, I really like this statement because of how often it isn't abided by in so many other scenarios, and I wish more people thought that way.
 
@sbi You (as the author) might. But this accomplishes nothing (apart from teaching you A Valuable Life Lesson, which as I noted earlier was done perfectly well by USENET)
 
@Shog9 I disagree. Changing the words of others is never productive. Yanking a question away from others is disrespectful and unproductive in every case
 
sbi
@Shog9 You misinterpreted. I rarely ever close-vote my own questions.
 
8:22 PM
@Shog9 But what do you accomplish by transforming it into something different?
If you have a different question you want to post, go ahead and post it. YOu don't need to edit mine to become that which you wanted to post
 
@jalf Assuming the answer to the new question satisfies the old, you accomplish the goal of garnering answers without putting up with rude, off-putting, or hard-to-read questions.
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Have a virtual +1 from me. I don't have any stars left to back it up, though.
 
@jalf That's not what I'm talking about however. A post which will be closed, but contains within it something of value can have that value extracted, reformulated, and salvaged.
(which goes back to my interest in your Meta experience, since those two questions have very different histories)
 
@Shog9 But when it doesn't?
 
I think you two are looking at two different scenarios at the moment
 
8:24 PM
@AlfPSteinbach You can point out inadequacies in people's code all day long. Just do it without being a dick.
 
@jalf There's always a one-click rollback option for authors...
 
@Shog9 yes, but it is hugely disrespectful, and frankly it pisses me off if I have to defend my question against some kind of desperate vultures who want to change my question into something I didn't mean to ask
Is it really so hard, even for a moderator, to respect the original author's intention?
 
sbi
@Shog9 Scrubbing our mouths with soap will accomplish nothing. With us, you will have to use brain bleach. At the very least.
 
@jalf Link, or it didn't happen.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey It did happen. Even though the meta police might have deleted all the traces.
 
8:26 PM
@RobertHarvey I don't think it did happen. The tracks are probably long gone from meta now
 
Surprisingly, but I find you moderators quite normal people from the discuss processed here. But our C++ Sub group demands what is basic rule of any C++ programmer, to allow us what is by rights ours, all links related to C++ must allow on SO, no tagging wikking.
 
@jalf yes. If I recall the question you're talking about: myself and the first 5 answers all misinterpreted your question, because it was mostly rant. Your intention wasn't clear. So when they edited the question to make it clear, they misinterpreted it. Because it was poorly written.
 
@RobertHarvey What difference does it make? I'm not accusing you of changing people's questions from under their feet
 
@jalf It sends a clear message: "I don't want your help. My question lives as I wrote it, or dies on the spot." And yes, you do have to send that message - the majority of folks on SO and MSO are ridiculously helpful; they'll try to get your question answered even if it's obvious to most casual observers that you're just there to blow off steam.
 
sbi
@DzekTrek You mean the mods are just as flawed as other people are? :)
 
8:27 PM
@MooingDuck then vote to close?
 
"gimme the link, I'll delete it"
 
@jalf that would have been the better option, yes. :/
 
sbi
@GraceNote Isn't that an obvious precondition for any heated debate? :)
 
@Shog9 The majority of folks on SO are ridiculousy helpful, yes. But very very few are rude enough to put words in other people's mouths. And if you are one of those few, I sincerely hope you never edit another post. Yes, it is that big a deal
 
@sbi Sure. :)
 
sbi
8:28 PM
@RobertHarvey Define "being a dick." For an international site, of course!
 
@MooingDuck or ask for clarification in a comment. Or anything, really. Just don't twist other people's words, don't change the meaing of their questions
 
There is 17 us currently grouped in C++ SO comittee for support and promotion of the interests of our members.
We rulez!
 
@jalf It is that big of a deal. It's why there's been a section at the end of the SO FAQ, since the site launched, advising those who do not want their posts edited to leave.
 
@Shog9 there is a huge difference between "editing" and "changing the meaning"
Perhaps you could show me where in the FAQ it says that you should expect to have the meaning of your question changed
 
Be respectful? Sure. Slavishly holding an author's hand while he shoots himself in the foot isn't respect.
 
8:30 PM
@jalf I'm not justifying the edit, I'm just saying the meaning was changed because of a misunderstanding (and misguided attempt at helpfulness), not maliciousness.
 
And I advice you to think carefully about your answer, because if you, a moderator or developer or whatever you are now, honestly tells me that I should expect the meaning of my questions to be changed without my permission or consent, then I will delete my account within the minute
 
sbi
@Shog9 He wasn't asking for that. He was asking to still the hand by closing the question.
 
@sbi or ignoring it. Or commenting on it asking for clarification. Or just flat-out deleting it
There are quite a few options that I could understand and accept
 
@jalf In that case, I'll return to asking you which of your recent MSO questions you feel was edited into a form where the meaning differed from that you originally created.
 
but changing the meaning is not one of them
@Shog9 It doesn't matter. I have no interest in digging up that debacle. I am simply pointing out that as a user of SO, I find it unacceptable if a moderator or anyone else, changes the meaning of a question
 
8:32 PM
@jalf considering the question, I think you might have flipped if they had flat-out deleted it :D
 
And if you disagree with that? Then you are wrong. And if your view is commonly held among moderators, then I am out of here
 
sbi
@jalf I'm never pro deleting anything but the dumbest ("gimme codez") questions. Especially on meta, where SO's future is decided and only a few dozen users can see deleted questions.
 
@MooingDuck Honestly, no. I'd have felt very validated in thinking the moderators are jerks, but I wouldn't have flipped. Not here, not on meta
 
All : Currently on discussion - Possibility of establishing own site < --- skype
 
@jalf Which is a useless thing to say in the context. You felt at the time that the meaning was being altered on both of your questions. I've encountered users who scream abuse in response to minor grammatical changes. Meaning is hard to guess at sometimes, and easy to get wrong.
 
8:34 PM
@Shog9 And when in doubt, don't fucking do it. I've voted to close probably hundreds of questions because their meaning was unclear
I've commented on far, far more, asking for clarification
 
Woo! I got positive rep today!
 
I have never, ever changed a question if I wasn't sure that it preserved the meaning of it
 
@MooingDuck cong ratz! :-)
 
Moreover, this is about the general principle because up until a moment ago, you were defending such action. Not merely saying "accidents happen", but that "it is ok in some cases to change the meaning of a question"
 
@sbi That doesn't make it... yargh
 
8:35 PM
So if you no longer care about your MSO posts (but then why bring it up?), that's fine - but IMHO, the one that remains undeleted shows honest effort from numerous editors to retain your meaning while avoiding the issues caused by your attitude. It makes a difference: there's abuse, and there's unwanted assistance.
 
So the context doesn't matter. It is that absolute statement I have a problem with
@Shog9 maybe so. But again, you just said that it was ok in some cases to willfully change the meaning of questions. It is not. Especially not for a moderator
And again, if the moderators as a whole think otherwise, then I have no intention of posting another answer on SO
 
someone could always propose a C++ specific site on area51 which would have its own moderators and FAQ - I think that would get shot down for fragmentation though.
 
great! please make a separate site for java and php
 
lol
 
ALL : < ---
 
8:38 PM
22 mins ago, by Shog9
FWIW, I've re-written posts - on SO and MSO and other sites - in fairly extreme ways, when that's necessary to keep the question from being closed / deleted. A deleted question, no matter how true to the original author's emotions, helps no one.
As I said, meaning is hard to judge. I've changed many posts - while preserving the question being asked - merely to lose some attitude on the part of the asker (because seriously, who wants to answer a question on X when it leads off with a big rant about how stupid X is and how unhelpful all the stupid X users are?) - does that change the meaning? Not if it was actually an honest question. If the guy just wanted to rant, then yes - but then again, it wasn't really an honest question then.
 
Well, I think this session has shown that many moderators see some value in discussion.
However, as I see, one problem is that they often don't see that value of discussion for the questions and answers
 
It's far more interesting reading than the essays I'm meant to be marking :)
 
Thus deleting comments willy-nilly or wholesale.
 
@Shog9 we want only basic rules to be respected here, and not to allow any influence in preserving the true establishment of SO, share of knowledge. As long as all of us, included in benefiting SO respect that law, we shall stay here, otherwise our word means nothing and we are forced to leave.
 
sbi
I bet the last four hours have increased the number of starred message here by at least 40%.
 
8:45 PM
OK.
 
@Shog9 Of course the person doing the editing always has to make the call of whether something changes the meaning. And of course there will always be disagreement if you ask others the same question. My point is very simple: "if you think your edit changes the meaning of a question, or that the OP might perceive it as a change of meaning, then don't edit it"
I personally have no problem "sanitizing" a rant, although more commonly, I'll just vote to close it, because it typically doesn't seem like the OP is interested in answers. But I have a serious problem with any moderator who claims that it is ever ok to intentionally change the meaning of a question
 
@jalf And I have a serious problem with folks who think that, because an edit changed their meaning, this was certainly done intentionally and born out of malice or hubris.
 
@Shog9 I'm not talking about that specific edit, and I'm not accusing you of doing anything out of malice
I am referring to your earlier comment that sometimes, the rule of "don't disrespect the OP's intention" can be ignored
It cannot
 
@jalf Fair enough then
 
especially not from a moderator
because it is such a kick in the teeth for the OP
I seriously can't imagine a more insulting action
 
sbi
8:51 PM
0
Q: Make onenboxing work for comments in chat

sbiAs the title says, I would like comments to be oneboxed to appear similar to this one.

 
30 mins ago, by Shog9
@jalf Yes, it's a very important principle. So long as it isn't rigidly adhered to when it's unproductive.
 
well, among the actions it is possible to take via a website such as this
 
Didn't say ignore it. Just don't be a robot about it.
 
@Shog9 yes, that exactly It is never unproductive to follow that rule. And it is never productive to violate it
@Shog9 You said that it can be ignored in certain cases. And that is exactly what I have a problem with
because it is such a fundamental rule of basic human respect
 
32 mins ago, by Shog9
@jalf Yes, it's a very important principle. So long as it isn't rigidly adhered to when it's unproductive.
 
8:53 PM
Yes, I think I've heard you by now. And I still disagree with you 120%
 
@jalf Come on, he isn't the one you should blame. He talks with you very politely. Name the guilty ones.
 
@Shog9 I'd like to see an example of what you would call a good edit that violated the principle.
 
He's not blaming him, just disagreeing
 
@GraceNote But he is also angry, which he can't manifest on @Shog9 . He seems like a nice man.
 
hmmm
should I split up my two-dimensional and three-dimensional scene objects?
 
8:55 PM
@MichaelMyers sure, hang on...
 
@DzekTrek I think I've only seen jalf angry. At least DeadMG is only angry when I talk to him.
 
@DeadMG This almost sounds interesting to me, dependent on the contextual project you're using this on.
 
well
pretty simply, I wanted to make some minor games and such, experiment with some ideas
 
@DeadMG last I checked you were making a new language
 
sbi
@DzekTrek When @jalf gets worked up about some topic, reason sometimes gets left behind. But also he usually manages to take over the starboard completely, so there must be some merit in his reasoning.
 
8:56 PM
Okay, it is interesting
 
@MichaelMyers famous example
 
but when I saw things like OGRE, which are things like getSingleton().getManager(), then I was like, "Time to invent my own"
@MooingDuck I have several projects
 
@DzekTrek jalf is a very pleasant fella
 
and generally rotate between them as I see fit
decided it was time to take a break from inventing my own language
 
@DzekTrek he is the one guilty of what I care about: saying that it is ever ok to change another person's words
 
8:57 PM
@DeadMG Haha, I can't blame you there.
 
I'm sure what happened on meta a month ago was a misunderstanding. That doesn't bother me
 
It's been a loooong time since I looked at OGRE
 
oh
I will have to separate them out
no reason for a 2D Scene object to have things like configurable shadowmap sizes
 
But getting back to point, 2D and 3D should be separate because they'll generally have much different properties.
 
But it bothers me when a moderator says that the most invasive, offensive and disrespectful thing you can do without touching another person is ever ok.
yes, it's something I take seriously
 
8:58 PM
such a pity that you can't begin identifiers with numbers
 
I'm lost in transcription now. :) @jalf, if you agree it would be nice to have you in moderators team, and to point out what is bad, what is right to SO. @All - We have made our conclusion to follow and improve the concept upon which SO is based, share of knowledge and free education. The skype meeting is over. Now, as all predicted/said, do your actions.
 
@jalf Is it ever ok to hold down, grope, and kiss another person without their consent?
 
struct 2DScene bad :(
@Shog9 > without touching
 
@DeadMG Yeah, that restriction is boring
 
@Shog9 no. And I'd be highly suspicious of someone said that "it's wrong, except when it's unproductive to follow that rule"
 

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