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sbi
10:00 PM
@DzekTrek It's easy to offend you without using any swear words. And it's easy to use swear words without offending anybody present.
 
yeah, I can use them liberally to offend people who aren't present :P
 
@sbi Of course, isn't that the point of the whole story?
 
@sbi I assure you, the WASPY fuckers who moderate Stack Overflow are perfectly capable of discerning asshole comments.
 
@DzekTrek you just told him not to swear. Apparently you missed his point.
 
sbi
@DzekTrek Mine? Certainly. But if "fuck" isn't offensive per se, why censor it?
 
10:02 PM
@sbi I generally don't, unless someone complains.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Yeah, right, they are perfect — according to their own standards. Like when we are discussing a computer language on a programmer's site but aren't allowed to name it, because someone might be offended.
 
@MooingDuck That makes double missed, which comes to dead end. @sbi We should be more creative, you know, instead of saying fuck lets say duck, tuck or anything similar.
 
sbi
@DzekTrek But if "fuck" isn't offensive per se, why censor it?
 
@DzekTrek what in the case of a noun? Namely, BrainFuck?
 
Duck the ducking matter, lets ducking play tennis.
 
10:03 PM
@DzekTrek also what SBI said is more important
 
that's not good atall
 
Use, BrainDuck
 
it's funny once, but there are only a few words that resemble "fuck"
 
@sbi Well, you're still trotting out these edge cases as proof that the SO mods are despots. They're not really representative, IMO.
 
and once you've used "duck", "tuck" or something, then you're back to square one
 
sbi
10:03 PM
@RobertHarvey But I already explained that this won't help you wiggle out, because you wouldn't censor "pork" or "women at a soccer game"!
 
@sbi It's a rude language, no matter it's offensive or not.
 
that's like, one sentence's worth if you're Tony
 
@DzekTrek only in America, not in England. Why are your rules better?
 
@sbi Sorry, but I don't get that. It's an edge-case at best, and a straw man at worst.
 
'cause we make them. :troll: @MooingDuck
 
10:04 PM
And it doesn't happen.
 
@RobertHarvey Only because the site's demographics are primarily not Iranian, I'd wager.
 
Folks, going off now... have a tons of paperwork to do... :)
 
Er... No. Rude is Rude, for the most part.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey For one, I am by no means saying you are despots. (At least not with this argument.) All I am saying is that your are biased and that you (which is worse) nevertheless believe to be objective. Which is ridiculously silly.
 
Later, @DzekTrek!
 
sbi
10:06 PM
 
See ya, @GraceNote. :)
 
@sbi So just don't use it. What's the problem?
 
Speaking of which, I gotta vamoose for now as well.
 
sbi
@DzekTrek Tell that to the inhabitants of Fucker, Austria. Or Intercourse, PA.
 
@sbi yes, it's manifestly ridiculous when one can't mention the name of a programming language. pure idiocy, if i may say so with mods present
 
10:07 PM
@sbi How is this preventing you from getting, or providing, answers to C++ questions.?
 
@RobertHarvey it's disruptive to the community and to communication
 
@MooingDuck Link, or it didn't happen.
 
@RobertHarvey If someone says "Is template meta-programming Turning complete?" then you can say "You can reduce template operations to Brainfuck", which is, I believe, how it was done.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Have you actually read my arguments?
> I find it hilariously hypocritical, that on a website for programmers I cannot search for the name of one of the programming languages used in the pun on the site's 404 page, because it uses a word which, while spoken regularly, must not be written down, according to some vociferous users. That is a very sad state of affairs, since that language is very worth tinkering with. (Writing a BF compiler is a very good student exercise).
 
10:09 PM
@MooingDuck How is this preventing you from getting, or providing, answers to C++ questions.?
 
@RobertHarvey we can talk without using the letter e as well. Doesn't mean that's acceptable
 
or how about "I'd like to get started understanding the compilation process, implemented in <insert language here> could someone recommend a simple language for me to compile or interpret as a learning experience?"
or even, what about those people who just want to ask questions about Brainfuck?
 
How 'bout I give you a real-world example, instead of a hypothetical?
 
or, how about those who, when asked about standard pic for image processing testing, just links to the Wikipedia article? which has the full pic that I posted (and that the mods removed)?
 
feel free to provide support for my argument whenever you like :P
 
sbi
10:10 PM
@RobertHarvey Besides @Dead explaining how it is relevant, how is this, your, question relevant to the discussion at hand? (Did I mention you are not going to be able to wiggle your way out of this and still look good? I meant it. This objectively is nonsense, so you will not be able to win an argument.)
 
isn't it getting pretty silly when such content is pretend-censored or outright deleted?
 
Do you want my "real-world" example?
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey "Writing a BF compiler is a very good student exercise."
 
Do you want my real-world example?
I'm not talking about a "maybe this will get asked."
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey This room is full of Europeans. Do you really want to look that badly?
 
10:12 PM
I'm talking about something that actually happened.
You want it or not?
 
@RobertHarvey it sounds interesting
 
Recently, a user flagged about a hundred questions with the words "Fuck" and "Shit" in them.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Like programmers discussing a programming language and the discussion being deleted because the language had an unkosher name? Yeah, that is a real-world example.
 
Excuse me, but I was talking. Shall I continue?
 
sbi
41
A: Why am I suspended from chatting for a message that's from May this year?

sbiSome teenager, who never answered a single C++ question on SO, and who was never before seen in the C++ chat room, storms into the room, actively searches the room's history for words and phrases he finds offensive and then goes on a rampage flagging a bunch of old messages. Of course, given just...

 
10:13 PM
@RobertHarvey calm down. This is an internet chatroom. People can and will interrupt you. That's fine. Please continue.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey No need to. We've been over it. ^
 
I believe you were both talking
 
well at least i'm listening robert. but is that the same flagging that sbi is linking to?
 
Why are we talking about chat rooms now?
Didn't I say that I was hands-off with the chat rooms?
You guys are great at deflecting.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey I wasn't. I was talking about someone going on a rampage flagging stuff.
 
10:14 PM
Not relevant.
It's a chat room.
And a situation that was properly handled, as I recall.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey BTW, your message wasn't visible yet to me when I hit enter on mine. Chat is asynchronous.
 
@RobertHarvey Please do continue.
 
For most of the questions, I edited out the offensive words, but some of them
 
@DeadMG yes, secondd
 
were in code. I declined those flags.
 
sbi
10:16 PM
@RobertHarvey By a bunch of regulars being suspended for half an hour due to something they said half a year ago to which nobody who was there at the time objected?
 
because they would change the meaning of the post.
@sbi I don't know what that means.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey I was being sarcastic. I consider that outcome not as "being properly handled".
 
SE Corporate was looking into ways to prevent users from flagging things that had already taken place in chat rooms (old news).
 
0
A: Browser: Continue gif animation after escape is pressed

2rist$(document).keydown(function(event){ if (event.keyCode == 27) { //FUCK FIREFOX GIF STOPPING event.preventDefault(); } });

 
@AlfPSteinbach There are no flags on that post.
 
10:18 PM
@RobertHarvey i could add one?
2
A: Error while parsing text file but not after opening/saving it in Textmate

Mladen JablanovićI suspect the cause of the problem is BOM, take a look for example here: http://naturalcode.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/ruby-19-and-unicode-the-bom-will-fuck-your-shit-up/ How to avoid tripping over UTF-8 BOM when reading files and google further if that particular answer doesn't help.

 
@AlfPSteinbach It's a free country.
 
5
A: Check message for "bad words" and "unseriousness" with php?

MainMaThis is not an answer, but just a remark which, I hope, is useful here. By experience, all bad words replacement algorithms through dictionary fail for several reasons: People are always more intelligent than basic filters. If they want to write a word "fuck" and this word is blocked, they may...

 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Wonderful example!
 
@sbi Except nobody's complained about it.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey I am still waiting for you to make your point on this.
@RobertHarvey But "if someone had flagged"??
 
10:20 PM
@sbi Try it. See what happens.
 
0
A: Is there a setting in the Windows headers that disables definition of TCHAR-neutral function name macros?

sbiThose tens of thousands of macros in the Windows header are definitely annoying. The best I could come up with so far is to severely restrict including <windows.h> punctually un-define anything that comes up: #include <string> #undef ExpandEnvironmentStrings // fuck off, WinAPI! n...

 
sbi
@RobertHarvey If you follow the rule you said way up there, you would need to delete it. If you, in this case, do not follow that rule, that doesn't mean that you have countered any of my arguments on that matter.
 
he he i'm evil evil evil
<g>
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Haha! Good find! I'd have sworn I never did that!
 
@MooingDuck already fixed it. How 'bout that. The system works.
 
sbi
10:22 PM
FWIW, I have learned to use "fuck" that way while working as a programmer in the US. Gasp! Who'd have thought?
 
@RobertHarvey I thought about covering the one with links, but that seems overkill. For the first one, swearing was completely unneeded.
 
@sbi MooingDuck adequately made my point for me.
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey I have wondered, because you weren't referring to some message of him, and the last thing I found was him saying you should calm down. What did you "fix" about that?
 
@sbi I edited the first of the posts Alf linked, removing the swearword. For the others, the swears were intrinsic to the post, and I left alone
@sbi I think his point is something about community policing itself, but I wasn't tracking the conversation
 
sbi
@MooingDuck How in the world is that any argument against me showing how the mods decide who's "a dick" according to the rules of the USian white middle class? (Which was my point, really.)
 
10:27 PM
@sbi I dunno
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Well, in the Brainfuck discussion, it was Jeff going through and censoring the word, not the community policing itself.
 
@sbi he's part of the community, he's allowed to follow the same policies we do. Though locking isn't part of that
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Neither do I. Nor does @Robert.
 
It isn't necessary to understand the cultural norms of other contries to determine who is being a dick.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck No. He locked postings so we weren't able to go and rollback edits. Also, he's warned me per email to not to oppose him anymore.
 
10:29 PM
But @MooingDuck has it right on. If "fuck" is an integral part of the question, then it has to stay, obviously. But don't expect it to live with impunity if it's not an integral part of the question.
 
@sbi I think Robert's point is he's enforcing the cultural norms as per the community majorities. Maybe
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey I am sorry to say, but with this, you have just proven yourself to be a dick with the cultural horizon of an earthworm. (And deleting this message of mine won't undo this brainfart of yours.)
 
@RobertHarvey I'm pretty sure it is.
I've kept out of that discussion so far, but that's just a dumb thing to say
 
Xeo
Woah, what happened in here?
 
10:31 PM
Because? You still haven't given me any actionable examples. Soccer women? Pork? Seriously?
 
@Xeo we got invaded
 
I guess the moderators like this place better than wherever they usually hang out :)
 
sbi
@MooingDuck And I was questioning this "community majority". I doubt that the majority on SO objects to the use of the word "Brainfuck" when talking about, well, Brainfuck. It was Jeff who went through that discussion and censored the use of the word even when the use of the word was discussed.
 
@sbi true. I disagree strongly with that act, especially in that context.
 
10:34 PM
@RobertHarvey again, not having followed the discussion too closely, isn't "jeff censoring the word "brainfuck" in a discussion of the language with the same name, a pretty good actionable example?
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Form an Iranian POV, it is actionable. From yours, it's just as silly as censoring "Brainfuck" is from mine. If you are unable to see this (which does not mean "if you are unable to agree with my or the Iranian judgement"!), you might want to do something to expand your cultural horizon.
Well, he's fled rational arguments. Did I mention there was no way to wiggle out of this and still looking clever?
 
oh look, another flag?
 
sbi
Haha, now someone flagged me. Man, if you are offended by this, why don't you just speak up and tell me I was rude? Coward!
3
 
I was wondering who it might have been
 
@sbi that's what I always do when he's being rude. Go ahead and do it :)
 
Xeo
10:37 PM
Okay, so what exactly prompted all those mods to get into our comfy lounge?
Did anybody hand out flyers or something?
 
sbi
@Xeo It was started by the book question being suggested for deletion. Then half a dozen mods descended on us trying to convince us of their POV.
 
the meta post about deleting questions
 
sbi
@jalf I fail to parse that. :(
 
@sbi just that people should go ahead and speak up if they're offended by what you said :)
 
19
Q: The Great Question Deletion Audit of 2012

Robert HarveyIn the spirit of The Great Question Deletion Audit of 2010, I give you the great question deletion audit of 2012. These are basically all of the highly-voted questions on the first "Most Votes" page that, if asked today, would quickly be closed as Not Constructive (this is not a complete list):...

I think they were soliciting input into that
 
10:40 PM
@sbi How is this in any way productive?
 
given at that point most of the answers on that were "burn burn burn"
 
sbi
@Shog9 I am sorry, but I was at a loss as to what to answer to such a dumb statement — except fro pointing out that it is dumb.
 
@sbi Illustrating how it's dumb usually works pretty well
 
@Shog9 flagging it isn't exactly productive either
 
@jalf Not in this case
 
10:42 PM
and I'm pretty sure there's no requirement in this chat that everything we say must be productive. :)
hence the room name
 
sbi
@Shog9 I have been struggling to do just that for about 2hrs, and he simply failed to be able to leave his POV for a minute or two and look at the problem from someone else's POV And then he went to spill it to us that he didn't understand a thing of what I said. What am I to make of this?
6 mins ago, by sbi
Haha, now someone flagged me. Man, if you are offended by this, why don't you just speak up and tell me I was rude? Coward!
Again.
 
@sbi I did. Ad hominem.
 
@sbi Is this about the Brainfuck thing?
I'm skimming the transcript, but was in a meeting and probably won't have time to read the whole deal
 
sbi
@MooingDuck So why didn't you simply speak up, and tell me that this was unnecessarily rude? You know, I might have agreed to you.
 
@Shog9 I don't recall if that's what started it or was merely referenced
 
10:44 PM
@Shog9 It's just been referenced is all
 
@sbi because that's what the flags are for?
 
I'm leaving the comment, FWIW, since frankly I think it reflects more poorly on sbi than anything - if he wants it gone, he's free to delete it (or flag it himself)
 
sbi
@Shog9 It started here, but it took him a long time to reply to it. From then on, you can pretty much follow the thread of our replies.
@MooingDuck Flags are for when you want to bring this to the attention of others without revealing your self as the one doing it. Do you really feel like you need to do this covertly here, to me?
 
52 mins ago, by sbi
@RobertHarvey See, and here, in Europe, we consider censoring BRAINFUCK (Smack!) just as ridiculous as you consider flags regarding soccer and women.
It's considered ridiculous by a fair number of folks here in The States as well. That doesn't matter
 
sbi
@Shog9 I have already explained why I wrote it. I'm open to discuss the issue, but I stand to me being at a loss to reply objectively to this.
 
10:49 PM
@sbi I didn't think about it. I saw a offensive comment, I flagged it. I didn't intend for anonymity, and when asked, I said why.
 
The deciding argument in that case had nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the common use of software in large organizations that block pages with certain words on them. Same thing with kicking Gaming as a topic off of Super User. Folks use these sites for work - if too many workplaces block them, we have to respond.
 
sbi
@Shog9 I know that it doesn't matter. That'#s why I said that, what's censored here, is not ruled by the "majority of the community", but by the male white middle class standards of the meta police.
51 mins ago, by sbi
@RobertHarvey Yes. But, unlike you said, I'm not taking my chances with the majority of the community, but with the USian white male middle class law enforcers of the meta police. And exactly that was my point way up the discussion. Which was disputed.
 
@sbi Doesn't matter what color my skin is either.
 
sbi
@Shog9 I didn't say anything about your skin color. I was referring to the typical roots of the policing standards on meta.
 
This particular example is unfortunate, because it's one of those things were it doesn't matter what the MSO consensus is.
 
10:51 PM
@Shog9 the standards are associated with those people (possibly unfairly), doesn't matter about your skin color.
 
sbi
@Shog9 That just makes it worse.
Look, the flags are gone again. :-/
 
Editing off greetings and signatures? MSO matters. Stuff that gets SO blocked by web filters so they can't use SO to do their jobs? MSO doesn't matter.
I don't think anyone likes it. Even the folks who are offended by fuck, since it doesn't actually set any precedent for other words they don't like.
 
hm, clone wars
 
sbi
@Shog9 But anything will get filtered somewhere in the world, and nobody here is concerned about that at all, unless it's, well, I'm sorry to repeat, but... white male USian middle class standards that those filters enforce.
 
Xeo
@Shog9 On that point of editing out signatures. You managed to get a certain someone in here to just not answer questions anymore, only through comments sometimes, because his "cheers & hth." tagline isn't allowed. Isn't that a little bit stupid?
 
10:54 PM
I spent the better part of an afternoon a while back, talking to a guy who thought "damn" should be censored as well. Guess what? It doesn't cause problems, and in fact removing it causes problems, so there's no policy there. Both sides unhappy.
 
@Shog9 was that really the official rationale?
 
sbi
@Xeo Especially considering that he's a real C++ guru and has been using this tagline for at least 15 years.
 
@sbi Sure. Somewhere, someone has a filter set up on their home's network that blocks any pages containing the word "moist". We don't care about that. Until it's lots of big companies full of our target audience.
 
@sbi meta over content. I guess that really sums it up after all :)
 
sbi
@Shog9 What about big companies in Iran? Last time I heard, they have pretty competent programmers over there? Why is it Ok to alienate them?
 
10:56 PM
@sbi Are we?
I'm not talking hypothetical stuff here - do you have specific evidence that there are Iranian companies blocking SO because someone used iran-unfriendly language?
 
sbi
@Shog9 Yeah, of course. Soccer is prohibited for women there, pork is ick, and during the Ramadan, you mustn't eat,so talking about it is offensive.
(Note that I am not fond of Iranian censoring. But your rationale isn't, er, rational. It's cultural.)
@Shog9 Now I must ask: Are you really, seriously asking this?
 
@Shog9 how much specific evidence do you have that a discussion about brainfuck in one SO question gets all of SO blocked anywhere?
 
@sbi I'm not saying we don't host stuff that's offensive to Iranians. I'm saying: we host stuff that's offensive to USians - being offensive to some portion of the population isn't necessarily a problem, in and of itself.
 
@sbi Say Shog9 agrees. Which other words to we forbid to get passed the Iran firewalls?
 
@sbi Look man - I'm on the team that handles the support emails now. We get complaints from all over the world about stuff being blocked. But I haven't seen one from Iran regarding soccer yet.
 
sbi
10:59 PM
@Shog9 I wasn't talking about "some portion of the population", and nor were you. We were talking of bowing to companies and their filters.
 
So either you're just making this up as a hypothetical, or I'd appreciate it if you could give me some documentation on it.
 

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