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6:00 PM
Unproductive meta thread? What's new?
2
 
It seems that the delete button is a mods favoriete button. If we don't like it, just press delete. It happens with SO questions, comments, chat history.
 
@jalf Unfortunately, the community vehemently disagrees with you. So we extended the courtesy to the C++ community to weigh in.
 
ROFL
 
@casperOne Which community?
 
@jalf The rest of SO.
 
6:00 PM
@Pubby nothing
 
@casperOne u got that wr0ng, completely
 
If moderators read C++ posts more they would realize that delete should be rarely used.
4
 
@casperOne Is there particular evidence of this popular opinion?
 
user784668
@Pubby I wish I could star this thrice.
 
this question about deleting anything has only one answer, NO
 
6:01 PM
@Shog9 I don't owe the moderators anything. Why would I? But if you take your "job" seriously, then you should at the very least investigate when some very active users disagree with metas/moderators actions or policies. If you can't even be bothered to do that, I don't see what difference I can make
 
@Fanael I didn't say there was something wrong with it. I simply pointed it out.
 
@casperOne I didn't see "the rest of SO" answering that meta thread
 
@jalf So let's say that's true: the question then becomes, are you going to do something about it, or sit here and gripe impotently about it?
 
I did see quite a few people from meta
 
@jalf We can't just ignore the rest of the community when they complain about broken windows. We need people from in here to defend your content if you want it to stick around. Moderators can't be the only ones defending it for the same reasons you guys are arguing that we're the only ones who want to delete it.
 
6:02 PM
@AlfPSteinbach I respectfully disagree with you. Simply stating it is wrong doesn't make it so. To that end, see the upvotes on the meta post in the first place. That is the "rest of the community"
 
@Pubby oh my bad puns to the table. This is going to wreck proper information exchange :) +1 for the pun of course
 
@jalf basically the same meta users that we always see in these delete discussions
 
@jalf And you think I haven't?
 
@casperOne then present some evidence, please
 
@AlfPSteinbach Done.
 
6:02 PM
@Shog9 The latter. I have tried to do something about it. I can't, because I meet attitudes like yours whenever I try. I can't overturn all of meta, because they have the power that I don't
 
What are decostructors? Do they decorate objects?
0
Q: Decostructors C++ (Compared to java)

dervelSo far I have been writing programs in Java. So when I started C++, the first thing that came to my mind was how to destruct/delete/finalize objects I don't need anymore. With Java I used to set them to null so the garbage collector was taking care of it. However, I don't know how things worth w...

 
@casperOne huh?
 
@Shog9 Yes, I think you haven't. You've said that I have a "reasonable theory" about a problem with the site, but that you are going to sit on your bum until I can prove that it is correct
 
@BilltheLizard So what do you want, that we participate in Meta more? That's not going to happen. Moderators and other decision-makers need to be part of the SO community, not the other way around.
 
6:03 PM
@alf Meta post upvotes, whether you like them or not, is the indicator by the Stack Overflow community (that cares to participate in such matters) of what they approve or disapprove of. (I've updated my original chat message as well)
 
@daknøk read a book, get to the question about to be deleted quick, before it's deleted
 
user784668
@casperOne Also, it's likely that he's not the only Jeff in the crew :P
 
@BilltheLizard Can't we just wait for all those people clamouring for deletion of those post to downvote them first !!!?
 
@jalf Believe it or not, I've felt exactly the same way. Had to take a break from the site for a bit because of it.
 
@casperOne How many upvotes does the book thread have? Compare that to the number of votes on Meta in favor of deleting it. Then tell me that "the community" "vehemently" wants it deleted
2
 
6:04 PM
@Fanael You could switch to Joel if you wish, but he does... Other things... =)
 
@daknøk Probably not a good time to ask, we're in the middle of a war
 
@jalf Why is it my responsibility to justify your attacks?
 
@BilltheLizard But moderators aren't defending it. This all started with a moderator telling us that most mods are "actively" deletionist
 
@sehe Go on Meta and downvote them.
 
@Shog9 What "attack"? I didn't see any "attack"
 
6:04 PM
@BilltheLizard Then, once the downvotes start to cancel the upvotes we can discuss deleting the question? The community has a voice, and it is called upvoting/downvoting. That should come first, not?
 
and I am certainly not asking you to justify anything. I am asking you, if you doubt what I am saying, to check it yourself
 
@casperOne so, you folks discussing here is just to pass the time. do you not see that you are putting forth two mutually exclusive world views at the same time? they can't both be right.
 
@Shog9 You are a moderator. Your job is to put pride aside and hear what people are trying to say.
 
@jalf Do we really want to go into how many votes were cast on that thread because of the merry band of gentlemen in here? =) No. But that's ok, because guess what, you got your voice heard and others will hear it as well. @BilltheLizard said that it was pulling teeth, and I'm inclined to agree.
 
If I could downvote meta as a whole, I would downvote it into obvlivion
3
 
6:05 PM
@BilltheLizard There's the problem. Meta has got little to do with it. We need more Plato. If the "real world" shows +40 upvotes, it means that the community upvoted them. Nothing else. Some shadow world might condemn them as 'bad things', but that's a different community
 
@casperOne Well, go ahead and count us. The "merry band" here can be numbered on one hand
 
26 mins ago, by jalf
@BilltheLizard well, perhaps if Meta didn't kick SO contributors in the teeth, said people might be more inclined to participate. But Meta isn't really a nice place to be for those who merely want to make SO a more useful site.
22 mins ago, by jalf
@Shog9 Meta does little beyond create a subcommunity which encourages harmful behavior, and from whom moderators are recruited, and which, almost by definition, pays more attention to everything and anything that can influence SO
 
@casperOne And that means what, exactly? Another reason to delete content without asking those pesky users?
 
I've asked for data, and I've asked for examples, and gotten... nada.
 
@AlfPSteinbach No, they can't be. But we're trying to take everything into account, hence our being here in the first place.
 
6:06 PM
@Shog9 I think this little discussion proves that point quite well
 
@Potatoswatter Which is why I'm here.
 
I think you need to understand that in this lounge you won't find any meta empathy.
 
> You have fully used your vote allowance for today
 
@TonyTheLion You'll find precious little on meta as well... ;-P
 
6:07 PM
@Shog9 Hey. that sounds familiar. I just did the same, and got "get off my lawn, kiddie!"
 
so, undo meta
 
I see most of the mods are here today :D
 
@sehe That's an argument in favor of more questions about t-shirts and cartoons.
 
@jalf Like it or not, you're part of a larger community. Those people's opinions are just as valid as all of yours. You are no more or no less important than any other users that contribute valuable content. We're trying to find solutions that are pleasing to everyone (although that's a lofty goal, admittedly).
 
If we ordinary mortal users who are not mad with lust for power dare say that there might be a wee problem with who is given power over the site and how it is wielded, then we are assaulted by a horde of moderators who refuse to rest until they have proven that it's not worth it to listen to us
2
 
6:07 PM
yea, it's a mod invasion
 
@casperOne I am part of the SO community. I care what the SO community thinks. What people on Meta do is their own business
The question is, which community are you part of?
 
@jalf I suggest we all leave and then they can discuss this amongst themselves :)
 
@casperOne Again, where is the evidence that the C# or JavaScript subcommunities feel differently from us?
 
@TonyTheLion It's time you post your porn stuff xD
 
6:08 PM
@BilltheLizard Show me the problem? I don't see those horrific questions. I'd be happy to close them thrice, but I don't see it happening.
 
@Potatoswatter Please read the other meta posts.
 
@jalf Is that what you think is going on here?
 
@casperOne Point me to one. You're the one familiar with them.
 
@jalf All the more reason to argue against deletion of good content.
@sehe They're already deleted.
 
@jalf There's no question there, you have a fundamentally different view of who I am because of the responsibilities I have in the community. It is not my place to try and change your opinion of me, I can only act; I'll be judged regardless.
 
6:09 PM
but it's pointless arguing as we've seen in the past, because it get's deleted anyways
 
@sehe You don't see a problem because a moderator deleted it.
 
@Potatoswatter I'll leave it as an exercise to you to familiarize yourself with the wonderful world of Meta =)
 
@casperOne: once again, could we please count votes? I see 887 SO votes that consider the book thread to be useful and relevant. I see 17 Meta votes in favor of deleting it. What does that tell you about the wishes of the community?
 
@BilltheLizard exactly my point
 
sbi
@casperOne But @Shog did use this to counter @jalf's argument.
 
6:10 PM
@BilltheLizard @RobertHarvey: the problem is, the mods think they do the deleting. In fact it is me and all other 'tag' watchers who do the deleting, as a community. I still don't get the impression that it is a horrific burden. Show us the list of deleted questions for today, and I might be convinced. – sehe 19 mins ago
 
@casperOne Who "you" are? It's not about "you". I don't know who you are, and I don't see how it matters. But your attitude here shows pretty clearly why it is impossible and pointless for me to state my opinion on the site's direction
 
^ DIversion :.)
 
@casperOne No, as I said, I'm not going to make the effort to politicize myself. A proper democracy should run important decisions past the affected people, not ask them to join the party first.
As Jalf is trying to say, it's not "wonderful" to all of us.
 
@jalf No, just that the mechanisms with which you choose to do it (chat, comments) marginalize your voice. I've stated from the beginning that you should use the other mechanisms to make your voice heard.
 
6:12 PM
@Potatoswatter When we come up with a system for ensuring that the folks affected by decisions are always involved in making them, I want to use it for my local city Gov't first. As much as some stuff on SO annoys me, these roads are worse.
 
@AlfPSteinbach Holy mother of god, that man should be dead nor it will be insult on Elephant's weight :D
 
@Shog9 What else could you possibly call it? I don't see a lot of open-minded willingness to investigate the concerns of active and highly productive community members. Instead, they are asked to bring hard concrete PROOF or stfu
 
@casperOne point is, it has been done in the past, on Meta, and it was ignored because those in power always know better in the end.
 
@casperOne Yeah, and then a moderator changed my question into something completely different. And when I reposted it, it was deleted
 
@Shog9 Yeah, well in one instance you actually have the power to make things work… in fact, it's your job.
 
6:13 PM
Anyway, your "from the beginning" is very different from mine. Because you're discussing that one incident, which I really don't care about, everyone screws up from time to time
 
@jalf Your concern being that Meta is uninviting? Or your concern being that moderators represent only Meta users and not SO?
 
My "from the beginning" goes back 3 years
 
And I'll grant that you're even doing it now, but you seem not to want to hear what we're saying in response to the present query.
 
@Potatoswatter No, I do not have the power to force anyone to participate.
 
and involves plenty of discussions with Jeff on his blog, and with people on meta, and on the site we had before meta. If you think I have never tried to get my voice heard, or that I am just a lazy whiner, then you should take a look at my post history on meta, on the blog and on the old uservoice site (if it exists)
 
6:13 PM
@jalf That was a specific case of an ad-hominem attack which was not constructive. You surely could call for my head in much more constructive ways. If you had done so, you probably would have gotten much further with it.
 
I can encourage, cajole, shame... But not force.
 
@Shog9 You have the power to change the system not to disempower everyone who doesn't participate at Meta.
 
@jalf Here is your answer to why massively upvoted content is not necessarily considered "good" content
Posted by Jeff Atwood on January 31st, 2012

Way back in 2008, we had Alexis Ohanian and Steve Huffman, the founders and co-creators of Reddit, on the Stack Overflow podcast. We chatted about a bunch of stuff, but one of the things they said that always stuck with me was that Reddit always took an explicitly hands-off, no moderation approach to their content from the very beginning.

I found that a bit shocking, since I’ve… never seen that work. Certainly on Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange we are very much pro-moderation — and more so with every passing year. We have literally hundreds of community moderators. We spend  …

 
If we say we don't want to spend time on Meta, we won't. Period. Things won't work that way. Find another way.
Sorry if it would make your job simpler, but it's a no-go.
 
@casperOne I'm not sure how, honestly. How do you call for someone's head without upsetting people? Anyway, what upset me was not that my "concern" was dismissed, but that the question was rewritten into a completely different meaning
 
6:15 PM
@Potatoswatter Indeed. However, I'm just gonna warn you ahead of time - the "solution" to that problem will probably take the form of another meta site.
 
By a moderator, someone who really really really ought to know better
 
And with that, I'll bid you all good day. Thank you for sharing your views. Thank you also for contributing to the question about the C++ post, which was the original point of all of this. It's much appreciated.
 
@Potatoswatter It wouldn't, really?
 
@Potatoswatter And if we say that Meta is where decisions are made by the Stack Overflow community, then you need to know that you're leaving yourself out of the decision making process.
 
@casperOne but once again, I don't care about that one incident. It doesn't matter, and it happened recently, long after I tried to "get my voice heard"
 
6:16 PM
@Shog9 No, the solution is to moderate the moderators — don't let them delete so much, send things back to respective communities so content isn't lost by accident.
 
@casperOne Anytime, casper. And thanks for bringing it to our attention. I hope it isn't a problem we don't agree on all aspects of this organization :)
 
hmmm some serious talks going on?
 
user784668
@Potatoswatter Or to delete the moderators with the most rep?
 
@BilltheLizard Yes. But isn't that a problem? That the site is now arranged so that those whose interest is merely in doing what SO is for are inclined to be left out of the decision-making process?
 
user784668
@MrAnubis No, just lots of nonsense like usual.
 
6:17 PM
I think that's a critical flaw, and it's only going to cause a greater divergence between meta and SO over time
 
@MrAnubis they want to delete many old questions, including the C++ book list FAQ
 
@jalf If you have recommendations on how to better facilitate all of your guys concerns, feel free to ping any of us, I'd be more than willing to come back in here and talk to you guys, if you guys aren't going to go to meta. I can promise I'll speak with other mods about it, but I can't guarantee it will have the traction that participation on meta will have.
 
@Potatoswatter That's precisely the point of us being here today. We're trying to get people from this chat room to weigh in on stuff that might otherwise be deleted.
 
@AlfPSteinbach Mods or Jeff itself?
 
@sehe Please, people disagree all the f'n time. If I didn't like that, I shouldn't be on the internet. It's what it is. No need to thank us, we're encouraged to take it =)
 
6:17 PM
@BilltheLizard The problem is that whenever we do weigh in, we get outweighed by other Meta users.
 
@MrAnubis well the meta police, the folks on meta
 
This is kinda off-topic but why does meta have rep?
 
And what I said applies to all (in regards to pinging me if you want to talk about site policies etc in chat and what I'll do to facilitate them).
 
@jalf Yes that's a problem! That's why I came here today. To help encourage people here to participate in the discussion.
 
@BilltheLizard Are you going to spend this much effort on the other communities? We just happen to be among the most active. And what about next time? There should be a process in place.
 
6:18 PM
the people who want to be in charge are the ones who get elected to be in charge. The people who merely try to serve the purpose of SO are not. I think that's a problem, and yes, I could nominate myself to moderatorship on a platform of "THIS IS WRONG, I SHALL CHANGE IT!", but it wouldn't work, because it woudln't change the underlying trend
 
@Potatoswatter How does that serve "not to disempower everyone who doesn't participate at Meta"? Trust and believe, we keep a fairly close eye on the moderators, and take all complaints against them seriously... But when I step in to override a moderator's decision, that's even less of a community decision than usual.
 
foobar everything about meta. I want nothing with it.
 
@AlfPSteinbach That's a serious bad thing to do :(
 
@Potatoswatter There is a process in place. It's on Meta.
 
I would (assuming I am as pure and noble as that) be one exception, but that won't change the general trend that "those who seek power gain the power to delete shit"
 
6:19 PM
@DeadMG So you're not going to say anything at all?
 
@BilltheLizard That's exactly the problem. Most SO users aren't on Meta. The process should involve forwarding content slated for deletion to someone likely to adopt it.
 
@BilltheLizard I have a response on this specific matter, regarding the deletion of the questions, currently posted on the Meta thread in question.
 
That is, if deletion is really useful in the first place, which I don't think it is.
 
I'm just going to quote Robert Harvey from the Meta question again: "Note that this is still a contentious issue, even among the mods."
 
@Shog9 Honestly, I don't really care about community decisions. I care about the right decisions. I didn't have a problem with it back when there were no moderators. I haven't generally objected to the benevolent dictator of Jeff/Joel
 
6:20 PM
in my opinion, it's a simple case of deleting stuff because it breaks the rules, instead of because it's a bad thing
 
@jalf BTW: Bill here has been a moderator longer than anyone, so if you're interested in trends, he's the guy to talk to....
 
I want the decisions that make SO a better place for programmers. What the community wants is irrelevant to me
 
@jalf spoken like a very mature user :) +1
 
@DeadMG At +8/-1 it's hardly being outweighed.
 
@MichaelMyers Robert Harvey is the OP, i.e. the asker. In the answers, it wasn't contentious at all.
 
6:21 PM
@jalf That's how I feel as well. It's why I'm a much bigger fan of seeing controversial topics discussed rather than voted on.
 
@BilltheLizard Compared to the +17 answer?
in my experience, there's very rarely movement on Meta posts- the first answer which is remotely popular gets to the top and stays there
 
@DeadMG Which says... "Delete unless someone speaks up to defend that specific question."
 
Voting ends up being mob-rule. The point of having moderators (albeit elected moderators), engaged SE staff, and of course, Meta... Is to try to flush out reasoned arguments for or against the policies we enforce... And allow exceptions when the site benefits from making them.
 
@BilltheLizard Well, it takes more than that. As anyone here will testify, I love to participate in discussions. Getting me to speak up is easy. The problem is that I don't really see that I'm being heard. And yes, I have spoken up, countless times. But I've been on SO long enough to see a clear trend. The power moves away from SO towards meta.
 
@BilltheLizard But this isn't about that specific question. It's just the best example and close to the heart of this room, specifically. The problem is with the idea in general.
 
6:23 PM
And honestly, so does the purpose, and the intent of the rules. Once, the rules were there to facilitate high-quality answers. Now they're there to facilitate the "meta" (in its actual sense, not the Meta site) structure of the site: we can't have too many comments, because it looks untidy. You can't edit your question too often because that could be abused. And merely posting high-quality answers is much less relevant
3
 
do you want people speaking up to defend every individual question?
that's just going to be an endless sea of noise
it's much easier to flag for a moderator than it is to counter-flag, as it were
 
@DeadMG No. Just the ones under attack that would represent a loss if deleted.
 
The "delete unless someone speaks up" policy is another good example. Imagine that such a rule had been suggested 3 years ago. Imagine Jeff's reaction. But today, it is taken seriously, because it's all about meta. It's about keeping the site nice and tidy, and making sure all us programmers with our OCD feel that "everything is structured and right"
 
@DeadMG Raise some noise then. Defend the questions you care about if you want to keep them.
 
I expect that in someone's opinion, any of those questions is a loss.
 
6:25 PM
meta is for hipsters
 
@jalf Three years ago it was considerably easier to delete things.
Like, for normal users to delete things.
 
uh, how do i vote down comments here? flag them for mod attention?
 
@AlfPSteinbach You can't downvote comments in the chat.
 
@BilltheLizard How can we? There are millions of questions and answers on SO. Once, the default policy was "let it stay, because it might be useful". If the default policy now becomes "delete unless someone stirs up a fuss about it", then the 5 of us on this chat can't do anything about it. We might save a hundred questions a day, which leaves hundreds of thousands to be deleted
 
the closest we can get to chat moderation is moving messages to the Bin.
 
6:25 PM
this chat is not reddit :P
 
@Shog9 Not as I remember it. The 10k privileges came much later, and I don't believe ordinary users could delete at all until then
but I might be wrong
Point is, back then, deletion wasn't, as I recall, a goal in and of itself
 
@AlfPSteinbach you can reply to that comment and punch back a strong answer in face?
 
@jalf No, I think you're right - I'm a few months off on my timeline
 
@BilltheLizard There's going to be far too much noise to hold a reasonable discussion on the merits of every question under consideration, I'd expect. The Meta question or site in general would be flooded.
 
@MrAnubis yes. that's much better than a vote!
 
6:27 PM
@jalf There are only a few specific kinds of questions that are in any danger of being deleted. The vast majority are safe. Anything that looks like a poll is under review.
 
but seriously, what do you want me to do? Email Joel and say "please tear down Meta and take the delete button away from your moderators"? How realistic is that, do you think?
I could ask a question in return, though
since so many of you powerful people apparently agree with me, why is it that I am the one who has to speak up? Why don't you?
 
@jalf By the time meta launched, the arguments for/against deleting things were already well underway. I recall having long, long arguments with folks on UV about it.
 
@DeadMG I'm personally fine with that. I've made my case for preserving content. If no one else will speak up then the content will likely be deleted.
 
@Shog9 sure, the arguments were underway, but there wasn't an established policy of deleting content
 
is SO going throw server space problem ?
 
6:29 PM
there's always been people who wanted to delete
 
@jalf that is, by summer of '09, it took only three users with three votes to delete a closed question. So a lot of deletion went down. The rules changed later on, to the current system... Deletion halved
 
@MrAnubis no, they're being idiots
 
@Shog9 Isn't three votes all it takes to delete a closed question now?
 
@MrAnubis Almost nothing is ever really deleted anyway
@DeadMG No. Depending on the popularity of the question and answers, it can take more. Sometimes, a lot more.
 
the OCD comment above wasn't a joke. We're programmers, we're notoriously bad at that. We want everytihng to be structured and categorized and sorted, and we want to eliminate anything that doesn't serve a clear well-defined purpose. Of course a significant portion of the community wants to delete. But three years ago, someone in a position of power was able to say "no"
 
6:30 PM
@Shog9 so why this pretense then?
 
@MichaelMyers Thanks :)
@TonyTheLion Sorry?
 
@Shog9 Guess I don't normally throw delete votes at popular questions :P
 
How meta police is deciding which question is important to anyone or not? there is simply no solution but to leave the questions as it is , and get some beer and Chill~~
 
@Shog9 you're saying nothing is ever really deleted, so why do this "pretend delete" then? Seem utter bs
 
6:31 PM
@TonyTheLion You're asking why anything is ever deleted?
Why we don't just let anyone post anything?
And keep it around for all eternity, no matter how bad or off-topic?
That's a big long discussion, if so
 
@Shog9 no, anything that's actually got value, troll questions should be deleted
 
Posted by Jeff Atwood on January 31st, 2012

Way back in 2008, we had Alexis Ohanian and Steve Huffman, the founders and co-creators of Reddit, on the Stack Overflow podcast. We chatted about a bunch of stuff, but one of the things they said that always stuck with me was that Reddit always took an explicitly hands-off, no moderation approach to their content from the very beginning.

I found that a bit shocking, since I’ve… never seen that work. Certainly on Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange we are very much pro-moderation — and more so with every passing year. We have literally hundreds of community moderators. We spend  …

^^^That's a reasonable start.
 
@Shog9 The notion that polls are off-topic is rather arbitrary.
 
tl;dr
 
@TonyTheLion Trust me - it'll be longer if we have to re-hash it here
 
6:33 PM
Certainly there are things that should be deleted… things that run afoul of the principles of moderation.
 
I like how shitty off-topic questions are closed but good ones are deleted
 
@Potatoswatter Yes, it is
 
lol, point made, too many arbitrary rules
I said that like an hour ago
 
user784668
We should delete all questions that have more than zero tags assigned to them.
 
@Shog9 It's quite easy to keep the signal to noise ratio high. Noise is easily identified. That is my experience from umpteen years of Usenet moderation. Thus, the argument's assumption does not hold.
^ some exceptions. is e.g. "Pete Pecker" (actual example) a typo or trolling? then we err on the side of caution.
 
6:34 PM
@AlfPSteinbach Well, that's easy to say. Certainly I have an easy time identifying noise. Why the thousands of other users don't all just agree with me is a mystery...
 
there's nothing wrong with questions that don't explicitly fit the format if they provide useful information
 
well, the C++ books question is NOT noise, so it should stay
 
@AlfPSteinbach Ooh, C++ porn!
 
But sarcasm aside, we've been arguing non-stop about what's "noise" and what's "valuable" for years now.
 
user784668
@DeadMG No, they're the Satan's offspring!
 
6:35 PM
lol
 
yeah, that's the problem
 
lol
 
@TonyTheLion I tend to agree, if only because it is curated.
 
@Potatoswatter ohh porn
 
I don't know if it's a requirement for being a C++ programmer, or what, but it's usual in this room to take a more live and let live approach- if it's helpful for a (not too localized, well stated, etc) problem, then it's not noise.
but we generally find that the other side prevails- if it's not strictly correct and accurate and a perfect fit for the format, then it's noise
 
6:38 PM
and then we are branded "pedants" ???
 
lol
 
Well, I got what I came for a long time ago, so I'm going to go get lunch. Thanks to @sbi and @DeadMG for weighing in on Meta, and to anyone else who commented or voted. I'll let you get back to talking about C++ now.
 
what I might suggest as a problem is that SO is too big, now
perhaps we should spin off some of the larger tags to be their own sites
 
sequencepoint.come anyone?
 
6:40 PM
@DeadMG yea and rid us of the ever lasting meta problem, if there's ever a C++ only Q&A site, I want no meta
 
lol
 
@TonyTheLion All sites get their own Meta. Except for SO... SO Shares.
 
(which, frankly, is probably the source of a lot of your complaints)
 
what? meta?
 
6:41 PM
Meh. Governance is certainly an issue, it's just that creating a smoke-filled room isn't enough.
 
@TonyTheLion The fact that you're "sharing" a meta site with... Everyone else on SE.
 
in my experience, the only real trouble we've had in this room, is with meta.
@Shog9 I guess we're different to everyone else, and not so easily conformant
 
yeah
 
@TonyTheLion You're bigger than everyone else. Like, combined.
 
which
 
6:42 PM
3 mins ago, by DeadMG
what I might suggest as a problem is that SO is too big, now
 
@Shog9 this room you mean?
 
I've heard these claims that we're different from everyone else, but not clear how or why.
 
@TonyTheLion No, SO
 
@Shog9 I'm a mere Lion, I'm not that big :P
 
@Potatoswatter Dunno. I find the whole thing strange.
 
6:43 PM
This room isn't all that unique. Not that you're not all special and wonderful snowflakes and such of course.
 
I know that we're the most active room by a significant margin
 
@Potatoswatter You're a unique special snowflake just like all the others.
 
@Shog9 Not the chat, the main site.
 
which is odd, because C++ is hardly the most active tag
 
sbi
6:43 PM
@TonyTheLion Certainly not. I'm a loving father, I'd like to think.
@casperOne No, that's fatally wrong. Meta post reaction is an indicator of the MSO community's opinion on the matter. SO's opinion on the matter is indicated by the votes on the question you want to delete. (Heck, that thing has >1.1k favorites!) This is exactly what @jalf has been trying to tell you all the time, and I am astonished that you still fail so badly to grasp it.
2
 
@Potatoswatter I think every 2.0 site has at some point said the words "that's fine for everyone else, but we're different"
 
sbi
@Shog9 800+ upvotes, >1100 favorites for that question. It's on topic, it's immensely helpful to the community. What more data do you need?
2
 
C++ is the 9th most active tag.
 
@sbi :)
 
@sbi What's this now? Oh - the C++ books question. Yeah, as I said, you gave a good defense there, I think it's fine.
 
sbi
6:44 PM
@BilltheLizard But, unless someone here happens to make a trip at exactly the right time to the madhouse that meta is, you will slip them all past us with no trouble. So this doesn't work the way you say.
 
@Potatoswatter Yeah, we C++ flaggers, we flag everything
 
@sbi data to justify the deletion of that question. I think everything we say is just something that adds fuel to the fire for deleting that question
 
@Shog9 that might be part of the problem, tbh. SO, SU and SF have different audiences and different cultures. Sharing a single meta site allows the "meta police" from all three to combine powers and exert even more influence
 
user784668
@sbi You fail to grasp that you're wrong just because they're saying you're wrong. And that's enough, for they have a nice shiny diamond.
 
sbi
Seriously, once it was that the meta crowd kicked us in the teeth when we went there. Now they come here to pull them! What have we done to deserve this?
2
 
6:46 PM
@Shog9 Honestly, I don't care about that one thread. I don't often link to it (because I'm too lazy to look it up, mainly) But it scares the shit out of me that a question with (1) lots of SO-relevant information, (2) over 800 upvotes and 1.1k favorites needs a good defense from us in the first place
2
 
@sbi open our mouth, and said what we think
 
user784668
Oh well.
 
user784668
You have fully used your vote allowance for today :D
 
don't try to defend, attack
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion The offense is the best defense?
 
6:47 PM
yep
 
hi
 
@sbi that's what you get for not being assimilated, I guess ;)
 
@jalf Minor point: it's all SE sites, including all SE 2.0. Not just SO, SF, and SU.
 
user784668
@AnnaLear So it's even better.
 
6:48 PM
I was going to up-vote and favorite the question now, hoping to keep it, but it seems I've already done both :-)
 
@AnnaLear But all the SE2.0 sites have their own metas too?
 
oh, is meta like the borg, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated
 
At least, I distinctly remember spending time on the tex meta site back in its A51 phase
did that change?
 
@jalf Yes.
 
@jalf Yeah. SF and SU have their own metas as well. MSO happens to function as a network-wide meta AND SO's meta, which is certainly a point of a lot of contention.
 
6:49 PM
there's a programmers Meta, etc
@AnnaLear The SO blog has this problem too.
 
@AnnaLear oh right. Yeah, I seriously think that's a problem, then
 
Meta's motto: "Resistance is futile."
 
the problem is that it's always so hard to get people to let go of power. And when you've provided a tool for the power-hungry to centralize their hunt for power, then they're not going to give it up willingly
 
I've looked at the history a little, but I'm still baffled as to what sparked todays modhate?
 
6:52 PM
It's always "us" vs. "them", isn't it?
 
sbi
@MooingDuck You haven't looked enough then.
 
@MichaelMyers no, not really
 
sbi
> I was torn whether to flag this as offensive or non-constructive. I've opted for the former. — sbi
 
MooingDuck is now a giraffe/goat?
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: This room has more moderators in it than all of SO [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
6:54 PM
@jalf This goes back to the "trends" thing... Wasn't so long ago some of us were fighting bitterly to try to get rid of "what's your favorite cartoon" and its ilk, with precious little support on Meta. Things have swung around the other direction... They'll likely swing again.
 
sbi
@jalf "You have fully used your vote allowance for today"
 
@Shog9 I always hated those silly/joke questions, and I'm glad to see them gone (and I argued long and hard against them)
 
@Pubby I thought I'd try it. Truthfully, I'm thinking about going back to the duck
 
where I see a problem is when the trigger-happy deletion starts reaching relevant and useful questions
 
user784668
@sbi Heh, I'm not the only one, then.
 
6:55 PM
@Shog9 But no, I can't imagine it ever swinging in the other direction. Why would it?
That would require people to stop lusting for power.
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers What mood did you expect to come out of a horde of mods coming down on us here trying to defend their position, rather than listening why we disagree with said position?! (And isn't that pretty much the opposite of moderating?)
 
@jalf Oh, golly, SO! Who's minding it? I think I left a burner on!
 
@sbi I thought they listened to us fine.
 
user784668
@DeadMG They listened? You gotta be kidding.
 
@jalf Same reason it swung this way in the first place - reasoned arguments, and... persistence.
 
6:56 PM
if there was any faeces-throwing going on, it was probably from us, not the moderator hordes
2
 
@Shog9 It's hardly a new phenomenon. Those who want power pursue power. Those who don't... don't. That's not going to reverse directions
 
sbi
@DeadMG They indulged us talking back to them. Listening is something different.
 
@jalf What people? Moderators? High-rep users? What?
There have to be easier ways to feel powerful than sitting around all day deleting SO questions.
 
@MichaelMyers generally, the ones who want to become moderators. The ones who hang around on meta trying to influence the site. The ones who want to be noticed by Jeff/Joel. The ones who want to make their mark on the site, and on the rules
 
bah, I gotta do more stuff on meta so I can downvote
 
sbi
6:58 PM
@Shog9 Honestly, don't you think that the fact that all those popular questions which got deleted recently needed to be locked in order to prevent the SO users — whose interests the mods were to represent — to undelete it, is giving away that something is wrong with those deletions?
 
and that's why I don't see this trend reversing. Those who want to leave their mark are much more likely to nominate themselves for moderatorship, and they are much more likely to participate in discussions and spend endless hours voting on Meta, than those who just do what SO was intended for: asking and answering questions
 
@jalf Seriously, man - I had to leave SO/MSO for a while, I was so frustrated - cruft I deleted got undeleted, the system got changed to make it harder to delete, and moderators I didn't think had any interest in improving the quality of the site got elected. I didn't think it'd ever change. But it did.
 
@DeadMG I think they threw their fair share of it
 
@jalf Mods don't get "points" for deleting stuff. There's no rule that says you get kicked out if you don't delete enough.
 
@sbi People would have undeleted the cartoon question, too. Votes are not necessarily indicative of something we want to keep around.
 

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