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user1646075
2:00 AM
@daniel tell me more
 
I am amazed
 
@aclarke what do u want to know ?
 
@daniel it's sarcasm
 
user1646075
i prefer ++a not a++
 
2:03 AM
Same
I'm pretty sure the compiler will optimize it anyway, but it makes me feel like a badass
 
user1646075
post-fix is inferior when you don't care to use the values
 
i already knew he was being sarcastic,thats why i was a ass and asked any ways
 
@aclarke hence why ++C is superior
 
user1646075
pray that day arrives. Pray to Codd. Edgar F.
 
@daniel btw, if you're pretty new to C++, I've got a question for you to either answer or find out the answer to
Just to teach you something, if you don't already know the answer
 
2:07 AM
i prefer a++, probably because i started out doing it like that not ++a, though i see a lot of people using ++a i guess its the more preferred way of incrementing.
 
what music if any do you prefer to listen to while programming ?
 
So they're not universal references anymore?
@daniel const char * vs char const * vs char * const vs const char * const vs const char const * const vs char const * const - one of them doesn't make sense, which is it, and what are the possibilities for correcting it?
and classical / classical style
such const
very char
 
user1646075
@daniel some rebels became obsessed with a++, probably to prove they understood that optimizers had improved to the point where they could figure out when the side-effect was the only thing asked for in the code, and thus a++ would produce the same as ++a. BUT
 
2:09 AM
much *
 
@OMGtechy They never have been. It's just an umbrella term for some weird language constructs that work together to provide a forwarding mechanism.
 
@MarkGarcia I am referring to what Scott Meyers referred to as Universal References
 
user1646075
that's only for integral types in C. For C++ classes, they'll reach a complexity level where the optimiser can no longer figure it out, and you'll get a large part of the redundant code in the ++ operator. The free lunch only goes so far.
 
i prefer anime / gaming music preferably touhou
 
Psycho Death Metal interpretations of Adagio for Strings
 
2:12 AM
@OMGtechy They decided to go for the more correct term, as "universal" is just, well, too universal. They're basically just used for forwarding, as said, and maybe some template implementation trickery. So the C++ gods have commanded. No more "universal references".
 
user1646075
@daniel are you trying to hit on us? sorry, don't swing that way.
 
@MarkGarcia AFAIK, the main problem was lvalue references getting deduced as rvalue references during template type deduction. I know little more than that on the subject
 
@MarkGarcia Can't say I agree with the default-parameter-passing advice being the same as C++98. It doesn't scale well at all.
 
hello
 
@aclarke im not gay nor do i appreciate being treated like a i am, im happy with my woman im with now, not a man )=.
 
2:14 AM
@OMGtechy lol no. There's really no problem. The problem is with how do they make the C++ peasants understand when they should use it (even without understanding how they work). Just pure terminology.
 
@OMGtechy uh.. what?
that never happened
 
user1646075
@daniel like shooting fish in a barrel
 
@Rapptz I don't know what they're talking about (about the default thing). Lemme see.
 
given I have multiple threads in my application, is it safe to have one global variable(stop all), having main thread modify it and others read it? I don't see any drawbacks yet.
 
@OMGtechy i would say the answer is either const * VS char or const * const was wrong.
 
user1646075
2:16 AM
@AlexV. still need to mutex it. processors need the signal that they should flush it back up the caches to other processors etc
 
though i am pretty new to c++, i have only been doing it on my free time and only about a month to a month and a half at most.
 
you can't clone the files on Windows lmao
 
@daniel const char const * is the problem, and subsequently const char const * const, question is, can you say why?
 
the ? in files offends Windows.
 
For the record, I'm completely straight, and am also happy with the woman I'm with; I'm quite content. But you can call me gay all you like--I really don't care.
 
user1646075
2:18 AM
i could say something really risque right now, but i think the lounge might be offended.
 
@aclarke Okay, looks like it is better to stick with some premade thread-safe data structures.
 
user1646075
but DaYYUM it's funny....
Want to hear it in privit?
 
@MarkGarcia Eric Niebler had a talk exactly like this
I liked his a lot better
 
@Rapptz Oh hahahaha. I read "default parameter-passing" as "default-parameter passing".
 
@OMGtechy you declared it was const twice, plus a const cant be redefined after being set const to my understanding
 
2:20 AM
@daniel so can you explain the difference between const char *, char const *, char * const, const char * const and char const * const (not all of them are different)
 
I'm starting to stay away from rule of thumbs now.
 
those are not r-value references
that's the "forwarding reference" they're referring to.
since it's templated, reference collapsing takes place
and T&& is super greedy
 
yeah, that's what I don't like
 
saying that an l-value turns into an r-value is wrong though
 
2:23 AM
It's treated as one, as the function only accepting rvalues (&&) is taking an lvalue
I just don't like it
 
user1646075
@AlexV. flushing up from the inner caches can be sporadic otherwise. in your case, would just be random delays while other threads finally catch the message, but for multiple threads REALLY modifying the data, you'd be seriously screwed.
 
const char * is a pointer to const char, and char * const is a const pointer to a char
 
Good, so what about the others?
 
@OMGtechy Like I said, it's not an r-value
the fact it's && is a misnomer
 
But it looks like one!
 
2:25 AM
you're not saying "take an r value"
thinking about it that way will only cause misery
 
It seems so
 
@OMGtechy Thus the magic and ponies of the now "forwarding references".
 
AFAIK, && == rvalue reference
unless it's in a template, in which case shit goes crazy
 
@aclarke Yes I know about modifying from multiple threads. The variable I was talking about is "keepRunning", only modified from main thread, way to signal other threads
 
const char * const is a const pointer to a const char, char const * is equivalent to const char *, and char const * const is equivalent to const char * const
 
user1646075
2:27 AM
@AlexV. yeah, the secret is, the mutex activity triggers things in the CPU - forget the name - that mark "I don't want to see ANY data that's staler than this point. And that point is hooked into the mutexes. Thus, your access to the mutex waits for the guarantee that you'll be seeing the truth.
 
@daniel have a shiny badge
 
user1646075
in your case, staleness will take any random time to clear. NFI just how long that could be in practice.
 
brb guys.
 
@MarkGarcia Anyway I just finished it.
The slides, I mean.
I still don't think it scales well
 
@aclarke I think I found proper data structure, it's called "condition variable"
 
2:31 AM
also
> Don’t use auto&& for local variables.
Don't tell me what to do!
 
user1646075
@AlexV. they're good
 
auto&& for local variables is godsent.
 
I've never used it because I don't understand its use case, care to elaborate?
 
not much to it
auto&& x = func();
 
Because when I see && I think rvalue, it doesn't make sense to me
ah
but then...surely it's an lvalue?
The whole move semantics thing is fairly new to me in general, so I'm still working out the bits of bobs
 
2:34 AM
it's a temporary
so it's an r-value
but it could collapse
auto&& is the best default for local variables IMO
I really disagree with the advice Scott is giving there
the reasoning is really silly too
> You should know whether your variable is const/volatile or not!
this applies to all the usages of auto he used in the previous slides
it's a ridiculous double standard
 
I'm still not getting the use case for auto&&. I've got something that (looks like) an rvalue reference, as an lvalue. It doesn't make sense to look at.
 
you need to read up on reference collapsing lol
I think Scott has a talk about it
like I said
 
It seems so, but then I have to ask myself "will the other developers understand it?" even if I do
 
thinking && = r-value reference 100% of the time is a wrong way of thinking
 
ok then, that's a good starting point
 
user3010322
2:38 AM
Ergh.
 
user3010322
Ubuntu running like piss again.
 
which version of ubuntu are you running ?
 
user1646075
@AlexV. oh wait, you don't want to wait until condition - be careful here!
 
win32 needs to be remade to be more oop
 
user3010322
2:41 AM
No
 
win32 api just doesn't feel right when programming with it.
 
Oh this wasn't Scott
It was Herb.
 
@daniel OOP is not the solution to everything
 
That explains everything.
 
@OMGtechy i never said it was its just that while using win32 its very uncomfortable programming.
 
2:45 AM
I don't think OOP is the answer to the Win32 API annoyances
I do agree it needs modernising though
 
Win32 API manages fine in C# land.
 
Never touched it in C#
Only C++ a long time ago
but from what I hear it hasn't changed much
 
@Rapptz i've only done win32 api programming in c++ and its very unclean code imho.
 
turning SDL's code base to be more 'OOP' did make it cleaner
Win32 API already has an OOP interface (see: C#)
but it's very high level
 
So long as the lower level functionality is there, I'd say that's a good thing
Easy interface + easy tweaking is perfect IMO
 
2:49 AM
@ThePhD Do you want to help with documentation or will I do it?
 
user3010322
You can do it.
 
user3010322
With your weird.... Latex weirdness.
 
I'm using Sphinx m8
 
@Rapptz yes, but they need to make the c++ interface for win32 more oop, its not that oop solves everything it would just be nice for them to do it, so our win32 c++ code would look better and cleaner then it does right now.
 
2:53 AM
plus a redesign of win32 api would help with most of the problems it currently has, but knowing microsoft they will put it off for as long as they can and just make more useless windows updates / add on's that we dont even need.
 
user1646075
@daniel It will NEVER happen
 
never said it would, just said it would be nice to happen
 
There's already WinRT.
 
user1646075
RT for retarded
 
user1646075
new product.....
 
2:56 AM
It's supposed to be the "new Win32" for the "new Windows".
 
user1646075
win32 copied win 16's API which originally ran on machines with less than a meg of memory
 
user1646075
and only C
 
user1646075
and steam-powered CPU's
 
user1646075
but you know that... is that atavar a beach-side pencil sketch for $20?
 
user1646075
makes you look old....
 
3:00 AM
@MarkGarcia to my understanding WinRT is only on Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 and including Windows phones, its not on Windows xp, or Windows 7, thus its not backwards compatible, and most gamers still use xp, personally i use windows 8.1, also Win32 is backwards compatible.
 
user1646075
XP now offiially dead so they'll no be doing anything to assist there.
 
I think it's good they didn't try to support the old versions of windows
with WinRT
 
user1646075
@OMGtechy commercially unviable.
 
well, that's exactly what they did so it must be
 
No, XP isn't quite officially dead...
It's just mostly officially dead
 
3:03 AM
People still use it yeah
 
@daniel Microsoft making something other than Win32 (e.g. an OOP Win32) would either become MFC/ATL or something non-backwards compatible. Just forget Win32 entirely and use a cross-platform library (unless you're making such a library).
 
user1646075
@HWalters massive companies and govmint orgs which are STUCK will get support by paying through the nose, and I know many places in that position
 
Well not quite what I meant... XP embedded is still supported
 
Also hardcore gamers go for perf, even if they're going to use Win 8.
 
user1646075
can you even patch or licence a fresh XP install? I have a pristine XP base-install parked in my VM's .....
 
user1646075
3:05 AM
which reminds me, must fire it up and patch it!
 
...
....
.....
....
 
user1646075
wierd, it's stalled after the 'Welcome' screen of the boot
 
win xp masterrace ;)
 
I didn't know rationalwiki was so shitty.
 
old as fuck
 
Hmm, maybe I picked the wrong one. I swear it mentioned C++11 somewhere...
Must have misread, that says 2001, ouch.
Maybe I should wait until the C++14 books start appearing.
You got any book you could recommend? Sort of things I'm looking for are intricacies type deduction rules etc
 
No.
I don't read programming books.
 
Neither do I really, but I think it's about time I did.
A nice book on topics I wouldn't normally cover myself really, just as a fill the gaps exercise.
One of the disadvantages of being self taught, although there are advantages too of course.
I saw that ha
 
ah
truth
I see.
 
3:33 AM
type define: troof into google
D:
 
too lazy to change tabs
 
I'll even do the hard work for you
 
how'd you get a lmgtfy link here?
those are banned on SE.
 
Not on chat they're not
They're commonly used on gamedev SE chat
 
Let me gamify that for you.
 
3:39 AM
So
Who here is actually excited for Rust?
 
jeloooooooooooooooo pudddddding pop
 
@Rapptz I’m carefully optimistic.
 
I was looking at the Benchmark game
ctrl + f "Rust"
what the hell went wrong here?
 
3:54 AM
Benchmarking is not my thing.
 
me neither
@LucDanton I tried it once and I didn't like it (v0.9.0)
 
I also have reservations.
 
about what?
 
Rust.
 
yeah I meant what exactly?
 
3:57 AM
I meant I tried it (around the same time as well) and it left me with some reservations regarding the language.
 
oh
the only thing I really liked was pattern matching
the rest was just 'meh'
 
No love for affine types and lifetime tracking?
 
you mean the special pointer syntax?
 
No, and there is no special pointer syntax (anymore).
 
yeah I was gonna say it got removed
 
3:59 AM
Move semantics built into the language, if you will.
 
I didn't particularly care too much, no.
 
Affine types mean that \x -> (x, x) is invalid, but \x -> 4 is.
 
How did you feel about macro rules?
 
Don’t care much.
 
it seemed cool in concept but the syntax felt weird to me so I didn't like it :s
 
4:04 AM
Never used a Lisp?
 
I don't like Lisp-like syntax either.
 
That’s something else altogether, but okay :Þ
 
:v
 
Can’t think of lisp-like macros in a language without lisp-like syntax (except Rust). Possibly Julia, I don’t recall how macros look there.
 
D has the coolest 'macro' system IMO.
 
4:08 AM
Try lisp-like macros :/
 
eh
have you ever tried mixins?
 
Stringly-typing is not an appealing feature.
 
I usually agree but I don't mind it in this case.
 
It’s kinda reifiying the silliness of C++ templates into a datatype. Doesn’t scream ‘oh cool’ or ‘exactly what I was missing’ to me :(
 
It's just slightly better C preprocessor I don't know why they called it 'mixins'
 
4:14 AM
@LucDanton How does the Julia one look like?
 
Don’t recall. Too busy cooking / playing Minecraft before it’s too late to check, sorry.
 
AST macros best macros
 
macro assert(ex)
    return :($ex ? nothing : error("Assertion failed: ", $(string(ex))))
end
cool.. I guess.
 
That’s lisp-like without lisp syntax ;)
 
I like it
yeah this is pretty neato
 
4:16 AM
It’s structured, principled and you can reason about them almost like you can functions. They’re not flawless though obviously.
 
> An issue that arises in more complex macros is that of hygiene. In short, macros must ensure that the variables they introduce in their returned expressions do not accidentally clash with existing variables in the surrounding code they expand into.
Oh...
 
Here you go :D
 
user3010322
Almost perfect.
 
user3010322
Almost.
 
lol what a crash to reality
 
4:19 AM
@Rapptz Sad, really. Macro assemblers figured out how to handle this to the point that it disappeared as a practical problem decades ago.
 
Python has this ast thing
I don't think it can be used for code gen though
 
@Rapptz Note that’s a problem almost every macro system must face.
 
@LucDanton Yeah.
I would have used a prefix or something to denote local
I'm not sure if it scales well or if it's a good idea.
 
Also I completely forgot to mention Template Haskell. I suppose it’s the whole PatE, ConE etc. gobbledygook that’s a turn off. Oh well, at least there are sexy quasiquotations.
@Rapptz What if a macro uses another macro? ;)
 
sorry, I'm nub.
how does that cause issues
 
4:25 AM
I’m assuming the prefix is to introduce a ‘namespace’ of sorts for variables introduced by macros. But then there is the matter of two macros sharing a variable name.
 
I was thinking more like block scope
or maybe name mangling?
 
^that’s an actual scheme, yes
 
like a local variable named stuff in a macro called test would be __macro_local_test_stuff or whatever.
 
@Rapptz The real difficulty arises with recursive macros that want/need to refer to variables created by a parent expansion of themselves.
 
I guess it's not used for reasons I can't think of
 
4:35 AM
@Rapptz It is.
 
oh
So why doesn't Julia do that then?
nvm
 
A typical solution is that you get a special way for obtaining a fresh name/variable, guaranteed to be different from all other names. Maybe there’s one of those (meaning that if you don’t use it, you get possibly shared names, hence the warning).
 
@Rapptz There are very few occasions where codegen in Python would be useful
 
Julia does have macro local names
 
Boo has AST macros
 
4:37 AM
It tends to pick the sane choices by default, ye.
 
coool
 
Factor's macros and fried quotations are p neat
 
I still think macro rules in Rust are lame though
 
> Conclusion: Unless he uses part of that money to finance Psychonauts 2, I fail to see why the hell he felt the need to sell Minecraft for two billion dollars considering he’s not going to use that money for anything. He could’ve just made it open-source and let the ordinary people carry the torch, but noooo, apparently he felt the need to sell it for a huge amount of money that he doesn’t know what to do with.
ITS HAPPENING
 
user3010322
The shitstorm.
 
user3010322
4:48 AM
Always a nice little shitstorm.
 
That nerd is really funny
bloo bloo he got a lot of money not fair
> Look, he already had enough money to not worry about ever having to work again. Why did he need more if he doesn’t know what to spend it on is… a little baffling, shall we say.
Why would anyone need more money????????????????
 
> please give an opinion on whether you think php is worth learning.
 
user1646075
@TonyTheLion No.
 
@TonyTheLion Closed as opinion based php.
 
I thought so
I guess Python would be better if you need server side web stuff
 
user1646075
4:52 AM
it is scary broken. someone 'ere has a link to a page full of crimes against cpumanity.
 
user1646075
Here 'tis!
http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
 
user1646075
an entertaining read
 
@Nican dammit, that's a hard quiz
 
I know right?! I got 11 wrong.
 
user1646075
i know bliss...
 
Adenine ...
 
user1646075
can I have Rosetta code open on a different page/
 
5:39 AM
I got 18/25. With some lucky guesses.
 
user1646075
i'm learning a lot of useful stuff here
 
user1646075
dammnit. 14
 
@StackedCrooked Did you ever finish that squares game solver? I am curious to see your end program.
 
19...
@StackedCrooked Yeah...
 
@Nican 20/25
 
user1646075
5:44 AM
@VáclavZeman one way or another, you've tried a lot
 
Everyone here seems to know their drugs better than I do. Seems like I have not done enough C++ in my life.
 
@aclarke Hehe.
 
@Nican not really. I did finish the game online though.
 
congrats for knowing so many types of drugs
 
user1646075
or languages with confidence!
 
5:58 AM
oh wow, microsoft bought minecraft
 
user1646075
bizarre isn't it?
 
@aclarke yeah
 
lol
 
lol, not so strange ...
 
user1646075
maybe i should read stuff, but please explain your thinking for the TL;DR crew?
 
6:06 AM
i have a question, how do you create a import library for a dll?
im in visual studios 2013
unlimited edition
 
link it in configuration
 
user1646075
click things, drag others, /shrug
 
i was just wounder, mainly due to the fact there aren't many tutorial on how to do this and the tutorials that are there don't even go into detail about it
 
user1646075
i remember it being a pain in the ass - haven't done much in VS for that
 
user1646075
like, once
 
user1646075
6:09 AM
MSDN surely has something reasonable?
 
I'm sure MSDN does have a tutorial somewhere its just the journey of finding that one good tutorial they put out in the mess of crappy fan made ones (=
 
microsoft has a history of buying games ... it bought age of empire many years ago
 
@daniel When you link the DLL, an import library will be built for it automatically. If that's not happening, it usually means the DLL isn't exporting anything.
 
@aclarke interesting. What are you differing about (besides markdown skills)? :) I hope you did see the context
 
so i have to use __declspec(dllexport) to export things from my dll and a .lib file should be automatically made ?
...
 
6:15 AM
@daniel You can use __declspec(dllexport), or you can use a .def file. Either way, the .lib will be created automatically though, yes.
 
user1646075
mostly just the usual smart-arsery; specifically about a 'comes before' relationshio or whatever you said
 
user1646075
happens-before
 
user1646075
children intuitively understand reverse causality; where any post-facto comments that cause upset become the reason they fucked up in the first place.
 
brb guys (=, have to go pick someone up
be back in 30 - 45 mins
 
is that a yabby or crayfish?
 
user1646075
6:20 AM
ummmm
 
user1646075
shouldn't explain the joke
 
@aclarke I know about that. It's really tough to navigate when something really "dramatic" happens and your kid blames you because you were talking about it at the time :/
 
user1646075
hah - "don't climb up there YOU'LL" CRASH, TINKLE, CRYING
"NOW LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!!"
 
7:19 AM
31
Q: What to do about students who ask for help too often?

VillageFor my writing courses, about 5% of students will come to me prior to deadlines asking for help with their paper. I see no problem advising students, as I often similarly came for help when I was an undergraduate. Recently, though, I found an increase in students who apparently just want to abuse...

^^ Answer: downvote, close, and delete. :P:P:P
 
is it me or stackexchange super slow @ moment?
 
@aclarke lol, I have the same experiences.
 
7:42 AM
o_0 nearly two years worth of logs
why have I got two years worth of logs to see why an instal failed?
fair enough it is timestamped, but still
 
8:01 AM
1 message moved to bin
Sorry, I like to keep chat open in the office and this was there for too long
 
This lounge needs faster garbage collection mechanism ... that's simply too slow
 
meh you don't taunt me
@thecoshman Germans
 
Ooh slow snow bear
 
no care, paws bare, so rare
 
8:21 AM
> I took Viagra and iron supplements at the same time once, every time I got hard I spun around and pointed north
12
 
@sehe yeah, was getting to me too
 
8:54 AM
slow start this morning
feel like I need to throw some controversy into the room to fire it up
 
wanker
 
yeah ... slow, & not just the garbage collection ...
 
If they can make a scripting version of java and use it all over the web, why can't they do the same with C++ and then we can have really fast websites!
/mic-drop
 

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