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5:01 PM
@sean this is exactly why i hate webforms.
 
You know how I was saying about not knowing if it had worked or not before, @ChadRuppert? Well it didn't. It didn't even add the forms auth membership provider, never mind creating a membership database... Piece of shit.
 
Hey @Maverik then y not for me :(
 
you should try backbone.... :p
 
@ChadRuppert Aww now come on, that's unfair.... Just because someone has put a required attribute on a usercontrol doesn't mean WebForms as a whole is terrible, it just means whoever wrote it is an idiot
 
LCD developer syndrome is the problem
 
5:03 PM
@DavidDV Man if I knew you personally I would slap you silly.
 
you wish
 
Regardless of how big or hard you are, I would still give it a damn good try.
 
i don't think the person that made the control is an idiot. I'm saying that the developer using it should read the exception and understand it.
 
@ChadRuppert There is that too
it is a rather obvious exception
 
as i said LCD developer syndrome
 
5:04 PM
I don't understand that one
 
lowest common denominator
 
Oh...
 
it'll click eventually
when I remember what that actually means
 
webforms was written to make it easy for vb6 devs to write web apps
 
I thought you meant liquid-crystal display, as in, the monitor they use. I was listening to my coworkers discussing web design behind me, so that skewed my thinking.
 
5:05 PM
thats why its so fscked up
 
@ChadRuppert Aaaah I see.... Well yeah
 
ajax toolkit / atlas was equally fucked up
 
because it was a bandaid around the same problem
 
hey @Sean
 
all for vb6 devs
 
5:07 PM
I never touched VB6 =\ did use classic asp though
hey @codebrain
 
nothing wrong with doing vb6 back in the day
still doing vb.net -> that is wrong
 
@DavidDV Despite the verbosity of the language...
 
And better (more performant) alternatives, like C++ =P
 
I know of software that I did 10+ years ago in VB6 that is still in production
Its all about making things that are good, which was possible in VB6
 
no its not wrong to do vb6 back in the day. the problem was vb6 was designed so yo momma could write apps. with the undrstanding of code yo momma had. and then to move those guys to a completely mismatched paradigm was bad.
 
5:08 PM
hello
 
You realise VB.Net is just a wrapper to IL? And that the only thing separating it from C# is some minor language constructs and one DLL?
 
we still have VB6 in production
 
VB.net is for ppl that don't want to learn new things
 
lordy. im not being clear today i guess. vb6 isnt the problem. its that it was so accessible that ended up being the problem.
 
same as WebForms / ajax toolkit was for ppl afraid of some javascript
 
5:09 PM
and html
nothing to do with js. it has to do with a stateless paradigm.
 
javascript has the same problem as vb6
 
that it's shit?
 
web is stateless by nature. a rich app is not stateless
 
a lot of ppl who are doing it who never read a book about it :p
 
thats the inherent problem with webforms. it tries to make a stateless situation stateful in a really really terrible but easy to use way.
3
webforms CAN be done correctly. however its typically not.
 
5:11 PM
@Sean It's not shit, but would be a lot better at ES6.
 
@ChadRuppert +1
 
and its HARDER to do webforms correctly than mvc correctly because of the incorrect abstraction.
 
I don't understand why you would say webforms and ajax toolkit would be for people afraid of JS... It just wraps everything up in one library so you don't have to spend hours writing your own stuff to do it. It's all about productivity
 
its not about productivity. its about ease of use. there is a subtle difference there.
 
It's not, it's about hey we can make web-stuff in the language that we know
 
5:12 PM
not language, paradigm.
 
I was doing XHR websites back in 2000
 
@DavidDV Right, cos going from VBScript to C# is totally sticking with what you know =P
 
seeing an ajax toolkit updatepanel years after that was sad
 
@ChadRuppert WebForms IS really hard to get right, but once you understand the page lifecycle it's really not that hard
 
thats the problem though. understanding. webforms is designed in a way that encourages its devs to not understand development, just draggy droppy doubleclicky
 
5:13 PM
when it comes down to it time is money, and not every website (especially internal) can expect to have thousands of users, so its not that webforms or ajax tool kit are not useful, they are, it just depends on the situation
i mean if you really wanted to "understand" things, you could write everything in assembly, but you decide that its not worth the time when you can use higher level languages
 
@ChadRuppert Yeah I have never used the designer cos it just doesn't work =P
 
there is the assembly argument
 
@sean you arent the dev type im complaining about though either.
 
@ChadRuppert Oh I bet you I am =P
I just try not to be
when it suits me
 
the fact that you know there is a page lifecycle indicates you are not. the fact that you try not to be indicates you are not the type im discussing.
anyways, foodtime.
 
5:16 PM
fair enough =]
 
@Sean is the type, he is a webforms homo!
lol
 
@JamieTownsend Die. Mother. Fucker.
 
winforms > *
just saying
 
i'm not a fan of webforms at all, but i can understand why some people are -- especially corporations who aren't concerned about whether or not their programmers know how the internals work -- they only care about productivity and money
 
Winforms can die too
WPF BABY!
 
5:16 PM
WPF scuks
 
You suck !
 
wpf can be written just as poorly as winforms.
 
@Steve grokking is too time-intensive for business.
 
only if business is stupid or the app doesn't matter in the long run.
blah, keep getting sucked in. back soon
 
@ShotgunNinja whats grokking?
 
5:17 PM
@ChadRuppert The majority of businesses are bad businesses on the inside
 
Sometimes, I hate NodeJS so much.
 
<3 Node.js <3
Node.js + backbone ^^
 
Hmm I start to warm up to it but sometimes.. what the..
 
:p
 
@DavidDV Do you work exclusively in JS?
 
5:18 PM
@DavidDV How the hell do you flush headers? :/
 
What's the job title where you just write code and never talk to customers?
 
no in C#
also
 
@Steve Gaining an intrinsic sense of deep understanding of the essence and the detail of something; developing a complete bond with a thing, far beyond familiarity, and becoming one with that thing.
To grok () is to intimately and completely share the same reality or line of thinking with another physical or conceptual entity. Author Robert A. Heinlein coined the term in his best-selling 1961 book Stranger in a Strange Land. In Heinlein's view, grokking is the intermingling of intelligence that necessarily affects both the observer and the observed. From the novel: The Oxford English Dictionary defines grok as "to understand intuitively or by empathy; to establish rapport with" and "to empathise or communicate sympathetically (with); also, to experience enjoyment". Other forms ...
 
@Billdr I was sure it was "Developer" but apparently not
 
@RoelvanUden don't know I just have one page and that is it
flushing headers?
 
5:19 PM
@ShotgunNinja lol k ty
 
@Sean Yea, I was told the same thing. Apparently there are liars among our elders.
 
@ShotgunNinja I don't even grok myself. I don't expect to be able to grok any programming language
 
Okay, guys. I have a question. We've got a co-worker who does NOT understand why we separate the data manipulation layer from the user interface layer. Anyone have any go-to real world examples that might help him understand?
 
Being able to reimplement something like Webforms in assembly would require a grokking of computer software systems.
 
@DavidDV Aye, I have a Content-Disposition header that I added and want to flush that to the client so it starts "downloading" while I pre-process a file and eventually submit it.
 
5:20 PM
@Billdr No it's just shit businesses, and/or businesses that aren't primarily software houses... AND SLASH OR bad manager
 
@Ellie SEPARATION OF CONCERNS THE FUCKING DOUCHE
 
Hence, I need to flush the headers.
 
@JamieTownsend ?
 
@Sean I'm at a SaaS shop. There are four devs, five marketers, and six sales people. Yet somehow I still have to talk to people.
 
@Ellie I cannot think of anything I've ever written, worked on or seen that actually does it properly so no =P
 
5:21 PM
I guess it's because I'm one of four people who actually knows what our product does.
 
This was a legitimate question, not meant for sarcasm. :P
 
@Billdr Yeah that pisses me off too. I'm forever having to talk to customers and shit, it's soooo fucking annoying
 
@RoelvanUden haven't had to do things like that yet
:(
 
This poor guy is having such a hard time.
 
@Ellie Oh I understand that but giving him examples of things that don't do it 100% properly isn't going to help either
 
5:22 PM
We've explained the theory a thousand times. I meant an example like someone doing work for someone else or something. An illustration, I guess, is what I meant.
 
Oh I see
 
@DavidDV There's some really cool stuff going on, I actually have a DNS server running with route detours and a HTTP forwarder that intercepts and modifies stuff from certain pages (man in the middle). Pretty sweet, all node :P
 
Nothing to do with code. Just a way of illustrating the theory.
 
@Sean At my company, no one will check in code if it breaks the build and no one will talk to customers.
 
some people don't learn by explaining but by doing, give him a project to do
 
5:23 PM
@Steve We have. He's done them, he just doesn't understand what he's doing.
 
My logo will be the monolith from 2001.
 
@Ellie thats too bad
 
@Ellie Mechanic being your doctor? Something like that?
 
@Steve It's sad.
@Sean Elaborate
 
nice thing about node is no iis web.config files and reading MS knowledge base articles
 
user1182183
5:24 PM
hey guys how do I get an attachment (image) to display in a picture box from a access 2010 accdb? ; o
 
@Steve He's ~60 years old - been programming forever, but this terminology baffles him.
 
@DavidDV Instead you comb through all the node files and poorly written documentation and have to search other peoples questions because there's absolutely no proper reference. Not a good switch.
 
in other news, one of my stored procedures we pushed to production was wrong, batch job ran and destroyed all the users data, fml
 
@Ellie Well, having your mechanic be your doctor would be a bad idea. Your mechanic probably knows about as much as the human body as a braindead camel.
 
Am I the only one around here who doesn't want images in the database?
2
 
5:25 PM
@Sean Yes, but how does that illustrate data manipulation vs. UI?
 
@RoelvanUden lol yeah, but it is a change :)
 
@Ellie I actually have no idea =P
 
Well shit. Thanks anyway.
 
@Billdr there are times when its acceptable to put images in the database
 
@DavidDV Hah it's funny but not very productive until you know everything.
@Billdr I love images in the database.
 
5:26 PM
@Steve There are times when it's acceptable to go a2m, that doesn't mean you should try it.
 
@Billdr when is that ever acceptable?
 
@Billdr LOL
 
Hey, I was hoping someone could help me with this. I am facing a algorithm problem, which I am sure has good ways of solving, but I don't know what the problem is called so I don't know what to search for.
 
@Billdr You can store images in a database using FILESTREAM, if it's MS SQL
 
 
5:27 PM
@RoelvanUden Okay, heathen. You help @GamErix with his access image issue.
 
@Billdr Or BLOB storage.
 
It is basically the "hotel room reservation" problem, I have a pool of reservations that I need to assign to indivdual rooms without overlapping room reservations, What is the term for that?
 
@Billdr @GamErix Access database cannot be considered a proper DB >_>
 
@Billdr Depends on the situation, if the images aren't being constantly uploaded/deleted I would keep them on the file system, but if it's something like imgur I would store them in a database
 
@ScottChamberlain Set theory!
 
5:29 PM
@GamErix It depends. Can you pull the image from the acess DB or don't you have connectors? Once that's done, you have the BLOG as a byte-ish thing, can create a BitMap and throw it in a picturebox.
 
@ScottChamberlain I believe it's a genetic algorithm?
 
I'm currently at 100% in my discrete math course (because the first assignment isn't due yet). AMA.
 
@Billdr What are your plans for not failing?
 
@ShotgunNinja Prayer.
 
What terms would you reccomend for google to find a solutions to this problem
 
5:30 PM
OH LOOK IT'S HALF FIVE, BYE GUYS
 
Hrm.
Sorry Scott, I have no idea.
 
Both of our resident math nerds are absent as well.
 
@ScottChamberlain Uhhh... Scheduling algorithms.
 
HOWEVER! there is a mathematics room on chat.stackexchange.com, I bet they know.
They may have the formula memorized.
 
5:32 PM
I was looking for a more of a CS side approach than a pure descreet math approch
 
@ScottChamberlain -> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
But I may have to
 
Algorithms are algorithms, man.
 
@Billdr There's no (single) formula... it's NP-complete, in some situations.
We did something similar to that in both Operating Systems (task scheduling/resource allocation) and AI.
 
5:34 PM
How'd you do it?
 
I know there is no Optimum formula but there are brute force fomulas for small datasets
 
still need math help @CCInc ?
 
Also if you do not need the optimum solution but just a solution to make it "fit" that makes it easier too
 
We used a heuristic-based approach, selecting things by best fit.
Clearly, if you have 20 people who need rooms at the same time, and only 15 rooms, then there is no solution.
The first step in any AI approach to a problem is to analyze the characteristics of the problem environment itself. From that characterization, you can select a working strategy; if you select a strategy for the wrong type of problem, it just won't work.
 
Ok I have a Assignment Problem -> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assignment_problem however, I do not care about minimizing cost
Is there annother term for a Assigment Problem where you don't care about cost?
 
5:39 PM
I think it's a form of the Multiple Knapsack Problem.
but I don't know my NP-complete problems all that well.
 
btw haré guu ftw ;)
 
Bin-packing?
 
That is the exact algrothim I need
Now to find a C# or SQL implmentation
 
Wasn't that used as the NP-complete proof for a good half of all existing NP-complete problems?
 
5:44 PM
I don't need the optimal solution
 
*for those who don't know, a problem is considered NP-complete if you can reduce the problem to an existing NP-complete problem in polynomial time.
 
and for those who don't know the meaning of polynomial time... :p
 
eg. "If you change all costs to 1, then it transforms into the _______ Problem."
or something along those lines.
Polynomial time means you can put an estimate on it, other than infinity.
 
yeah I know, just pointing out that your explanation would still be difficult for normal ppl :p
 
Since accomplishing problem-space transformations takes specific amounts of time, and doing sets of those transformations adds multiples of those amounts of time, just about anything that we can solve is considered "determinable in polynomial time".
 
5:47 PM
anyway ppl are better of knowing about jungle wa itsumo then NP P stuff
 
lol Hare+Guu
 
You know who I hate? Salesmen. That's who.
 
@Ellie Always travelling in NP-hard patterns...
 
@ShotgunNinja Yea, it was a animated gif but it was turned in to a still image when loaded as a avatar
 
@ShotgunNinja ?
 
5:50 PM
The travelling salesman problem (TSP) is an NP-hard problem in combinatorial optimization studied in operations research and theoretical computer science. Given a list of cities and their pairwise distances, the task is to find the shortest possible route that visits each city exactly once and returns to the origin city. It is a special case of the travelling purchaser problem. The problem was first formulated as problem in 1930 and is one of the most intensively studied problems in optimization. It is used as a benchmark for many optimization methods. Even though the problem is computat...
 
NP?
 
It's a term in algorithmic analysis for something that is "Nondeterministic in Polynomial Time"
there are different classifications of problems, including NP-hard and NP-complete.
 
O.o
 
NP-complete problems are a subset of NP-hard problems, in which the answer is easily verifiable in polynomial time.
Example: A jigsaw puzzle.
Each piece is randomly distributed, and there is no simple algorithm for selecting and placing pieces once they've been scattered, that will solve the puzzle in one shot.
But it's really easy to identify when a puzzle is complete.
 
Way to confuse me.
 
5:54 PM
There are methods for figuring out how to start, and how to progress, but they take random amounts of time.
 
Okay.
 
There are methods for figuring out how to start, and how to progress, but they take random amounts of time.
 
Anyway.
You know who I hate? Salesmen. That's who.
 
Buhh, what happened?
Also, why is my connection to the server so goddamn slow today?
 
Howdy.
 
5:58 PM
@Ellie Did you see our notifications ?
 
@AndréSilva Yes, dear LORD.
@ShotgunNinja That dumb broad finally emailed me back, with a list of MOST UNHELPFUL advice to solve my problem.
 
@Ellie You're welcome.
 
@AndréSilva I forgot to close this before I left last night.
 
@userXemY I have to go but heres an idea: which version of dot net are you targeting?
 
5:59 PM
@Ellie Which dumb broad, exactly? I don't think I was here for that...
 

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