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09:01
5
score
8
8 examples
8 contributors
please approve :D
I don't really have a problem with docs in theory. A lot of languages don't have the support that we do. And even in Python there's some things that could be added that will work. But DAMN the execution has been bad.
I really would have liked docs being more based on actual existing answers
We have so many super good answers on SO, that easily work as a documentation topic on their own.
If we could choose these answers and build a documentation based on references to them (no duplication), that would have been a cool platform imo
@poke That would have actually been cool
And in fact, reading the warcry meta post when documentation was first announced, I assumed it would be something like that.
Just think about what we have been doing with the canon, collecting great answers covering actual worthy topics. In theory, docs would be a place where those topics would be covered properly. And that’s probably what it’s going to end up as at some point. But this is all done by duplicating resources that already exist, discrediting the original contribution on Q/A.
Exactly. A curated library of good SO Q/As would be much much better
09:06
And it wouldn’t compete with Q/A, like the current docs will and already does.
Wait for the "Guys I have a question how do I Django" topics that people will try to create.
"Guys my vcvarsall.bat is on fire what do"
lol, at this point, I’ll probably celebrate that
@poke yes
Ah they've added accr.
I really don't like this shit.
@Ffisegydd But even with that, they shouldn’t get rep from it now. It’s content that’s not their own.
09:10
I think people are just copy-pasting from the official docs
where, I can't see?
Some jackass takes other peoples content and gets rep for it?
yes... and as I stated above,
because of CC-BY-SA, anyone now sharing the content must acknowledge that they wrote it :D
hi all, what's the consensus on sending people this way that want to talk about the Python docs?
I don't get the excitement over sqlalchemy topics. The sqlalchemy official docs are really nice on their own, contain a lot of good examples. People will just end up posting that same stuff just to earn rep
09:13
@Quill better here than elsewhere imo
@ChaoticTwist You just gave the reason for the excitement with the last two words
@Quill there is no consensus, but
most of the python high-rep users are here. (less one)
@poke okay, just didn't know how the room wanted to handle a flood of 'pls halp'-style Qs
@poke yeah. but i'd just make a topic, put the official doc link and call it a day (or something like Ffisegydd did for matplotlib) :P Why take the pain to copy paste the whole thing?
@Quill You mean questions about writing docs? In my opinion, if people need help to write docs content, then they probably shouldn’t attempt to write docs in the first place?
09:16
+1.1
I like to give 110%
@poke heh, nice
I've got lots of things to say that are not quite fit for python documentation...
Mind you, it could serve as "what not to do" documentation.
@ChaoticTwist Link-only is lazy and probably not rewarded; but if you copy lots of content, then it looks like you did a lot of things and it still takes little effort
@Quill Mate we get them every day anyway :P
09:17
@IntrepidBrit exactly
I vaguely remember Flask had issues with keeping docs up to date because it was mostly $flask_author doing them and no easy way to break it out, so this could solve that, perhaps
@Ffisegydd yeah, but me specifically directing them in is a tad different, I prefer the 'ask first' style content-moving suggestions
Thanks SO for given people easy rep-based rewards for stealing content.
> A dictionary is like a list, but more general. In a list, the indices have to be integers; in a dictionary they can be (almost) any type.
@Ffisegydd You can’t even make this shit up.
09:21
> Like a string, a list is a sequence of values. In a string, the values are characters; in a list, they can be any type. The values in a list are called elements or sometimes items.
Please tell me that’s the same user
Yeah
Of course.
Phew.
1 hour ago, by Ffisegydd
I really don't understand how everyone at SE can think these Docs are amazing. Do they have some leverage on their staff or something? Is it blackmail? Or maybe brainwashing?
Seriously.
It's like I'm learning python all over again :P
09:23
We should make a LPTHW topic.
We should document all the terrible experience on sopython actually
That is a not bad idea at all.
Prepare a case, and then present it on meta to show how terrible this whole thing is
I'll make the wiki list now
Where could we document stuff? thinks
09:24
like the LPTHW wiki but for docs
@Ffisegydd Step 1) Make Lisp topic. Step 2) Paste all of On Lisp into it
So many print statements.
If I was an evil man (I am) then I'd go through and edit every single print statement to be a function. Think of all the delicious rep you'd get over time.
@Ffisegydd thanks for the idea. I have infinite amount of free time right now ;)
When other people do it it's rep farming, when we do it it's moderation BD
I think I'd come under the first category :P
09:32
@Ffisegydd I added some
How do you delete topics?
@Ffisegydd move all exampes out of it
and have someone review the change
Ah awesome.
@Ffisegydd it seems that you're so stressed now that you're misspelling words :D
I wonder what happens if I start deleting all topics willy-nilly
09:38
idk, but I'd call it a good start :D
Okay. :D
hmm
these n00bs documenting all things backwards get on my nerves
# Import the print() function of Python 3.
no... it doesn't import anything. It disables parsing of print-the-statement
What if Docs is a way of identifying all the "pls-halp" type of users?
is it though?
Maybe?
A way of weeding them out?
09:44
seriously, I edit the examples and all the code blocks are written as
To ensure cross-compatibility, use
```python
0o755
```
who writes like that? I've never seen that particular codeblock idiom before the documentation
even the button doesn't generate that
Fenced code blocks with explicit syntax highlighter class. That’s actually not uncommon at all
And much better than this imo:
To ensure cross-compatibility, use

<!-- language: lang-py -->

    0x755
the whole topic defaults to Python
just wondering
@AnttiHaapala "There is seemingly no reputation limit for approving change requests". Does this mean a low rep guy can approve change requests?
No there is a limit
09:54
because I think there's a 100 rep limit. I can't approve changes yet
exactly.
100 limit is laughable
@ChaoticTwist and you should post some stuff to get over 125
Still :P
so that you can start downvoting :d
09:55
I don't know what to post :P I'm too lazy to write a new topic
so answer some questions
That's what I do.
baha, answering questions to get rep is so first half of July 2016!
8
09:57
@Ffisegydd There are badges for the first month? MEH, now I have to invest work.
I'm thinking of creating a pyinstaller topic though
Do we have a history on our sopython wiki yet?
@poke yes, just forgot to pin it.
See pins.
Antti has been cracking on :D
huh? No, I mean an edit history, because Antti overwrote stuff I did xD
10:01
Oh.
No.
D:
Back button saved me
Is it possible to move between topics?
http://stackoverflow.com/documentation/python/2169/interval-comparison#t=201607‌​221001437908328 (SCREW OFF SO IF I WANTED IT ONEBOXING I'D HAVE LEFT IT ON ITS OWN NOW I'VE GOT TO CODEIFY THE LINK AND MAKE IT REALLY LONG) should maybe be in a topic that deals with boolean stuff, not on its own.
Never mind found the answer.
@Ffisegydd ah need to add that one
I hate that I can't delete something myself and have it verified.
To be fair, some good SO Q&A answers quote the documentation with a bit of explanation
10:10
I've got to mark it for improvement, have someone else delete it, then have people verify it.
wat?
topic request for "gensim", no explanation
pastes On Lisp
dismiss
1

Dynamic code execution with `exec` and `eval` (topic request)

Should handle exec, eval, how to make them secure (i.e. you can't), and how to use them; using Python 3 compatible syntax for exec
requested by Antti Haapala 39k
please pvte :D
so that I can get a badge
10:14
Go on then
@AnttiHaapala pvte?
please vote to e**?
please upvote :d
Oh I thought you meant dismiss...
D:
You should be clearer with your vote ring instructions.
I still don’t know what the E is :D
The E comes after D.
10:21
cool
pvte==upvote, i presume
oh
pvte == 'Please VoTE'?
why not use vplz? or plzv? Add in a u or d as needed?
'pvte' = 'upvote'.translate(None, 'aiou') (Python 2)
@MartijnPieters but he wrote "please pvte" wouldn't it become "please Please VoTE" then?
10:24
Speaking of str.translate, is there actually a nice way to delete chars in Python 3?
@ChaoticTwist why do restaurants list 'aloo potatoes'? Sometimes people forget that the meaning is already there?
I thought it was like mcve, "pisstaking very terrible example"
@poke yes, map to None.
It's for those with potato allergies; they confirm that bathrooms are available. It's a faux ami.
@MartijnPieters: I haven't come across any restaurant that does that.
10:25
@ChaoticTwist The Facebook cafe did yesterday.
Presumably because people in London might not understand what "aloo" means :P
Aah. I see.
Aha! 'upvote'.translate(str.maketrans('', '', 'aiou'))
good point @Ffisegydd
@Ffisegydd our international workforce may not know ;-)
10:27
@Ffisegydd Isn’t it a misspelling of also?
I want some aloo gobi now D:
Here, have some.
@Ffisegydd :-D "aloo gobi potatoes with caulifllower" you mean?
10:41
Cabbage
Is there a way to file duplicates if two different topics exist on the same thing?
got it
I see there's been another day of fun with the Emperor's New Docs.
The lack of "reject and edit" is annoying me.
The lack of "nuke the entire site from orbit" is annoying me.
10:54
Eh. I don't mind it in theory, I think it's awful in practice.
Same here.
It could have been a great place for collaborative docs that are OT for SO or can't be covered on an external site easily, but in practice it's just bad.
It's also probably much better/less annoying for communities with bad existing docs.
But a lot of the stuff I'm seeing is "Well, this is worse than the standard docs..."
Think I just got my first hate downvote :D
But then I see something like stackoverflow.com/documentation/proposed/changes/29669 and a tear wells up :D
@Ffisegydd or plagiarism :P
@Ffisegydd wow, and that wasn’t even @Antti
10:56
@Ffisegydd haha
Yeah who is that guy
Get him in here!
OTOH, even when done well, a nice juicy pool of examples will feed cargo-culters, as Andras and I said earlier. I guess that happens with the main Q&A site too, but I get the feeling that Docs will be worse for that.
Cargo culters gonna cult cargoes.
@Ffisegydd oh wow :D
now I wish I could bounty edits :D
What a hero.
@poke remember that unicode translate in python 2 never worked that way either
>>> u'safd'.translate(u'asdf', u'asdf')
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: translate() takes exactly one argument (2 given)
so you've got this wonderful function that suddenly breaks because someone elsewhere was using unicode_literals
11:03
What a terrible person
In other news, today I joined the illustrious ranks of the bronze badge holders. :)
Docs really needs veto buttons
hahahaha
@poke post to meta
“Saying Hello from JavaScript” – That is an actual topic on docs.
@poke " Yeah, and require a bronze badge to contribute or something " That makes sense to me. Letting low-rep noobs create and edit stuff is madness, even with an approval system, unless people with actual topic knowledge are in the loop.
@PM2Ring Are you saying that review queues are not the perfect solution to every (any) problem?
YES!!!
@PM2Ring I do not have bronze in SQLAlchemy
it should rather be 2k in general or sth.
Why not both? Bronze badge to get individual tags, Nk to get access to all.
11:10
Doesn’t a bronze badge require you to have a certain amount of rep (indirectly)?
100 score so ~ 1000 rep.
Ignoring accepts or whatever.
@AnttiHaapala Sure. Overall rep is a reasonable indicator of general SO competence. But for documenting language stuff, I think needing a badge in that language is a reasonable requirement. For special topics, needing a badge would not be practical
Otherwise, only people like Martijn would be doing all the work. :) Dude has gold in Unicode, FFS. :D
@Ffi​zzy, do I press "delete topic"?
or flag the dupe for improvement?
how does this work?:D
11:12
Delete it.
If we're discussing the numpy dupe
yes, that
how are you not clear on what I'm thinking?
A-ha, it's a draft that deletes the topic, so has to be reviewed
interesting system
couldn't you delete it, Fizzy?
wtf is with all these new badges
Stack Overflow Go
0
Q: Allow veto-ing documentation proposals

pokeThere are a lot tags on Stack Overflow which don’t really cover a topic you could write a documentation about. A lot of these are tags which are about a (named) concept that exists in multiple languages. Currently, we get a lot documentation proposals for these topics. Here are just some example...

11:30
@Ffisegydd median is gone, courtesy of Alex Gaynor and undersigned
@Ffisegydd @Ffisegydd since I or Ilja do not have bronze badge in SQLAlchemy which does have its own section
yet @IljaEverilä is currently the only one really concerned about its quality :D
Cannot navigate to the proper topic page from drafts
@AnttiHaapala as someone stated before, the whole sqlalchemy doc is a bit pointless, as the official docs are very good and contain basic examples etc. Tried writing stuff there, ended up just repeating the official docs pretty much.
Giving up :|
python problems
11:37
but even "how to" is a good thing
@AndrasDeak python docs are not on par with sqlalchemy docs
sqlalchemy docs are full of how-tos. Python docs not so much
Ah, I was going to ask how
because I find python docs to be immensely useful
for example the python 2-3 porting still doesn't reflect my views.
oh the humanity:P
2 years ago I was arguing with a python core dev (Ezio Melotti) about porting; his view was that you should fork all codebase for python 2 and 3 and maintain separate versions of them.
@AndrasDeak this is one point of documentation, there can be several distinct ways of doing things in examples
Even just looking through docs to see what I could possibly do there is super frustrating
Content is just bad, and I’m not in the right mental model to actually rewrite existing stuff
11:54
wat? :D
I realized: I get +2 rep for all typo fixes that I do to my own content :d
lolwut
@AndrasDeak shog pretty aggressive in some of those comments
Nice
I wrote an example, perhaps I should correct it a lot
I added 2 examples, +2 rep
12:01
I'm very finicky
then I fixed a typo, +2 rep
granted I do not get rep for upvotes then, but
the n00bs do not care.
1
Q: Add templates for common notes/warnings

ZazWith many topics, there are a few common warnings or pieces of advice that keep cropping up. For example, with Git, there is the warning that a certain command deletes information permanently, and there is also the warning that history shouldn't be modified on branches that you're collaborating o...

this also makes sense
1
Q: Documentation should include reference to official API document/specification

TrungDQEspecially for parameters section. Example CSS - Selectors Should there be a line in the suggestion box that encourage contributors to put in the official API document or specification links? That would be very helpful.

and this
> If we want this to be used, if we want this to actually work, then sooner or later we gotta figure out how to make this work on Stack Overflow. Yes, that's gonna be painful at times. Like ripping off a band-aid. Remember how awful suggested edits were? That was tiny compared to this. Eventually, we'll work out the problems.
Do we really want this to work though? :/
idk any more
I thought this was a good idea
now they're making these into PHP interactive docs.
@RobertGrant he's also completely ignoring Servy's concerns on the main answer's thread, which is not a nice thing to do
0
Q: Documentation bug: Can't use less-than, greater-than signs in syntax block

uraimoWhen i try to write something with those characters like <Type> while editing the syntax section the wrong error shows up (Syntax must be formatted as a list of one-liners) and i can't publish my changes. Work-around: Use &lt; &gt;.

valid bug
12:06
@RobertGrant just a sec, creating screenshot
“Syntax must be formatted as a list of one-liners”? Wow.
It's as if Shog doesn't want the original comment thread to be around
12:20
Weird
The SO docs marketing is in control of shog's actions at the moment
12:33
44
A: Documentation Has Entered Public Beta

GordonAs per my comment: Can someone please clarify the scope of the docs please. The blog post says examples are king, but what I see right now is people adding more or less random topics. What is the point of reiterating the Q&A of the main site? I would understand if docs was for user created AP...

morning kittens
You do realize that kittens are a natural enemy of crows?
I guess we can be friends
cbg
12:41
ಠ_ಠ That wasn't supposed to work
12:52
"Users must have at least 100 reputation to be a room owner". That puts a little crimp in my plan to reverse-engineer RO action protocols...
Can Terry login by himself now, or are you still logging him in by hand?
Maybe later - I'm probably getting ahead of myself right now. I still haven't figured out how to send messages with apostrophes in them.
Good Morning all.
Clearly html.escape isn't doing the thing that I think it's doing.

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