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1:00 PM
@Kevin Yeah... looks like it'll be later... can't seem to login to the account :)
 
@JonClements Reminds me.. did you find those login data, or should I look at my stuff later when I get home? :D
 
No hurry. If I'm really dying to test RO powers, I'll let the bot log in as Kevin and I'll monitor as Terry. A criss-cross!
 
@poke ahhh... yeah... I reset it at some point from what it was but I can't remember what I changed it to...
Time to be a bit cheeky and (mis)use mod ability to see what email I set :)
 
Ah, I should be using urllib.parse.quote, not html.escape. Uh, I think.
 
haha :D
 
1:05 PM
Driving back from pub lunch and got lost. Turns out my friend was trying to direct us using the Pokemon Go app so they could catch pokemon at the same time -___-
 
@Kevin You know you could just look at the websocket traffic your browser sends/receives? :P
 
Yeah, that's more or less what I'm doing.
 
Morning cabbage.
 
I see that the parameters for one of my previous messages was text=Maybe+later+-+I'm+probably+getting+ahead+of+myself+right+now.+I+still+have‌​n't+figured+out+how+to+send+messages+with+apostrophes+in+them. urllib.parse.quote doesn't quite turn the plaintext into that, but it seems to accept the percentified version anyway
 
@Kevin there's quote_plus...
 
1:11 PM
Thoughts on this entire doc topic? stackoverflow.com/documentation/python/946/…
I think it should be deleted, to be honest.
Just a load of random little bits with no particular rhyme or reason.
 
Cool, I'll use quote_plus. Should save me a little bandwidth.
 
What rules are we laying down for asking for people to take a look at proposed changes to docs that need validating?
For example, would someone be willing to look stackoverflow.com/documentation/proposed/changes/27877 over as the start of a topic?
 
>.<
I'm gonna flag it to be deleted anyway.
 
1:31 PM
Why not delete? Does it need a flag first?
 
So apparently the whole "escalation of time spent muted after a kick" isn't calculated on a per-room basis. Guess I'll twiddle my thumbs for the next four minutes thirty seconds while I wait for my minion to go free.
 
@Ffisegydd "Firstly, matplotlib provides the pyplot interface, a direct and simple-to-use interface"
 
@Kevin are you bot trolling rooms one after the other?
 
@PM2Ring Ah yeah ta. I changed that sentence but didn't finish it. I'll edit it later (if not fixed by someone else) when I add an altair example.
 
@Ffisegydd there's a docs page
 
1:32 PM
Nah, I made a sandbox room so I can test RO stuff without annoying everyone else.
 
at least it should link there
 
Instead, I'm annoying everyone else with a play-by-play of my development process
But at least that's on-topic.
 
does the sort() method still do some additional sorting with integers even if you specify a custom call back?
 
@Kevin oh I misread your message, I thought you said that it is calculated per room
 
@AndrasDeak Yes. I link to the real docs (I had to stop myself calling them real docs :P) but I should add some tags.
 
1:33 PM
(I'm glad it's not)
Oh, it's submitted by the Fizzy:P
 
I kicked terry in here last night for one minute, then when I kicked him in the sandbox just now, he got muted for five minutes, much to my surprise.
 
oh I can see the link to both, cool
@Kevin I thought there's some cool-down
I mean, decay of the escalation counter
maybe there is, but slower
 
@Kevin I'd be quiet if you kicked me in the sandbox! Eh? Eh?
 
@Kevin there's a 24hr cumulative period for kicks - it's not per room
 
Good to know.
@RobertGrant Heh.
 
1:35 PM
@Ffisegydd I don't get your point about "two distinct methods" for plotting
both are just pyplot, so what do you mean exactly?
 
@Andras For simple plotting the pyplot interface provides a MATLAB-like interface, particularly when combined with IPython. For the power user, you have full control of line styles, font properties, axes properties, etc, via an object oriented interface or via a set of functions familiar to MATLAB users.
 
plt.method() vs obj.method()?
 
So it's basically "How many times has this user been kicked in the last 24 hours?" - "If none, then 1 minute, if once then 5 minutes, more than that then 30 mins and raise auto-mod flag"
 
@Ffisegydd yeah I still don't get the distinction
 
@Andras and I lifted that sentence for you directly from here :P
 
1:37 PM
@Ffisegydd that doesn't mean jack shit anything:P
it sounds more like PR BS
there's pyplot and there's pyplot, and either you can use it well or you can't
 
I think there's a big difference between plt.plot(x, y, <some_keyword_params>) and fig = plt.figure(options); ax = fig.add_subplot(1,1,1,options); ax.plot(options)...
You can intermix the two if you wish.
 
@Ffisegydd but the former is just short-hand for plt.gca().plot(...)
which is ax.plot(...) with dynamic axes
 
So? It might use the same code underneath but they are two different interfaces and ways to think about it.
 
Much the same way that in your quote there, both modes seem to refer to MATLAB. Again, in MATLAB there's one way to plot
then you can make it fancier if you wish...
 
There's a big difference to the user between plt.plot(herp, derp) and using the object notation to modify and build your own graph.
 
1:39 PM
if the user is derp, then yes; but I don't think that's a distinct method of operation
but I'm fine with not agreeing:)
 
Well what if you get into things like matplotlib.org/api/ticker_api.html ?
 
whoever reads SO docs will be derp anyway
 
And start using the more advanced stuff? That's really different from a user point of view to just plt.plot or whatever.
 
Question about software dev cycle. I noticed django 1.10 hit "Release candidate" stage and upon googling noticed there are 3 more stages (RTM, GA, RTW) would Django be the type of project it makes sense to go straight to RTW after successful RC stage?
 
It all uses the same code underneath, fine, but to the user they are different methods.
 
1:40 PM
@Ffisegydd imagine it like this: does using ubuntu via the window manager, clicking mouses a distinct mode of operation than using a terminal?
 
Yes.
 
OK, then we have a philosophical disagreement:D
 
I don't understand how you could ever imagine using a mouse and a GUI and CLI being the same thing.
 
You can also use windows in 2 modes: installing all sorts of malware by clicking everything in internet explorer; or the other kind
@Ffisegydd my argument example might not have been chosen best, I admit
 
It's all about layers, guys
walks off smugly
 
1:52 PM
Hey guyzzzzzzzzzzz💩💩💩💩💩💩
 
cabbage
 
summoning room owners just in case :P
@falconuser cbg
Come to think of it, "hidden features" and crap like this have no place in docs as a separate entity, even if they are not duplicates.
 
@AndrasDeak Agreed
It's just fluff.
If we're going to have docs on SO then damnit we're going to have decent docs :P
 
I wonder how long it will take until someone boops us in the nose for you flagging shit and me voting to delete
 
do you think this topic should be named "data model methods" to instead of "magic methods"? stackoverflow.com/documentation/python/318/magic-methods
 
1:55 PM
Who do you follow on livecoding.net ?? Yee
 
@falconuser No one.
 
@Bonifacio2 Nope.
 
@Bonifacio2 no idea but there's another similar topic here stackoverflow.com/documentation/python/2063/overloading/7334/…
They might want merging.
Whilst I prefer the name "data model methods" I've heard them called "magic methods" a lot
 
me too ^
 
Really? I've never heard data model methods, and I would have no idea what that meant.
Maybe I'm just used to magic/dunderscore methods.
 
1:59 PM
dunderscore? What are you, a freak?
 
I'm asking because the docs never mention "magic" (at least i never saw this)
 
@AndrasDeak Probably. :P
 
i think this naming came from another programming language
@MorganThrapp I usually call them dunder something. like dunder len. :P
 
php
 
@Bonifacio2 Yeah, that's what I use most times.
 
2:00 PM
Data Model is probably a better name, though "python magic methods" takes me straight to the data model python docs on Google :P
 
is there any way to run a replicate postgres db?
 
another cursed legacy from php. if there's a thing i don't want my methods to be is magic.
 
(just to be clear, I might not have been serious)
 
hahaha
still. i don't want my methods to ever be magic
 
@Bonifacio2 Are you kidding? I want as much magic in my programming as possible. The less I understand, the better my code runs.
It's why I use Windows.
If I can't fix things on Windows, it's because they already work, right?
 
2:03 PM
shotsfired
 
@Morgan wat
 
You seem to be confusing Windows with Mac
 
@poke did you mean Ubuntu?
 
@AndrasDeak WHAT IS THIS SHIT!?!?!? Seriously o.O
 
2:07 PM
there's a channel on YouTube just about some guy who licks things
 
So...first we approve all the shitty additions, then delete?:D
I'm afraid we'd get stuck in the middle there
 
@corvid I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be surprised regardless of how else you could have ended that sentence. There’s a channel on everything I think
 
@poke I proposed that the entire topic be deleted. No such luck though D:
"Hidden features" == "Features that new programmers* don't know exist" apparently.
 
@Ffisegydd Yeah, I know, but why is that automatically rejected just because someone else edited it?
 
@Ffisegydd I'll do that now
 
2:08 PM
@poke but this channel is strangely hilarious and bizarre at the same time, every episode is like a terrible spy movie
 
* = also included in that set: idiots.
 
@corvid Do you know How to Basic?
 
Would someone mind trying out a web page for me and tell me if it works for them?
 
sure
 
@poke yeah, this mountain dew is actually pretty good
 
2:10 PM
it's here
 
@corvid what about shoenice? lol
 
@JonClements should the pitch be empty?
 
Actually think I've just broken it...
 
@Ffisegydd your turn, do the needful
(or die trying)
@JonClements I can see a football arena/area/stadium/grassy field
and no events
 
yeah... one sec
@AndrasDeak can you refresh?/
 
2:14 PM
0
Q: Edit rejection text box limit too small

FfisegyddWhen rejecting an edit in documentation you are given the option of selecting "Other" and then typing in an "Other" reason. This box states the following explicitly: A problem not listed above. Be specific and detailed! However, the box itself only allows you to enter 150 characters. This i...

 
@AndrasDeak okay... I'm going to try and start the events - see what happens
Gr... and the websocket server keeps crapping out
@AndrasDeak thanks... but ignore it for now... it's borked - needs more fixing... sighs
 
I hope we end up with some badges for this docs moderation.
Boom, Hidden Features has been deleted.
 
What the? (docs video)
@Ffisegydd Go us! Now for the rest of the Python docs...? :D
 
\o/
 
2:21 PM
I can still see the topic though
 
@Ffisegydd wooooo
 
Oh, now it’s gone
 
so my take on distributed architecture isn't going too well. Speed is dreadful. time to panic
 
@poke But seriously, what’s with the weird scrolling behavior there?
 
Just updated PyCharm. If you haven't yet, DON'T.
 
2:25 PM
so bad?
 
what's wrong?
 
It just froze for 2 minutes because I made the terrible mistake of trying to inspect a variable.
 
"You can't review any more changes today" NO! BAD SO! THERE ARE STILL IDIOTS POSTING CRAP!
4
 
how dare you
 
It was completely fine on the last version.
 
2:28 PM
is it off-topic to ask architectural question on SO?
 
Can anyone figure out how this answer is relevant to my "Parallel edits" meta post? meta.stackoverflow.com/a/328717
Maybe I'm totally missing how what they're suggesting fixes the problem.
 
@Ffisegydd for the record, I did the needful myself
 
@Ffisegydd Anything specific I need to look out for?
 
(@JonClements I can see Pass events now, 10 of them:P Will keep ignoring it)
 
Not sure how long I can help; about to have my laptop swapped.
 
2:32 PM
@MartijnPieters Users ;_;
 
@MartijnPieters I hope you're swapping it for a cabbage :)
 
@JonClements A 1TB SSD cabbage, as opposed to the 250GB I have now.
 
Swwwwweeeeeeetttt..... :p
 
shutting down..
 
Not able to delete stupid topics quickly enough.
 
2:39 PM
@Ffisegydd who added the plagiarism complaint? I want to flag that example but I don't know what the source is.
 
@Antti
Main guy was someone called j4ck or something.
Adding content from the Python Cookbook
Seen a few others that have linked attributions, but no idea if they were allowed to copy the content without going to look into the licencing.
 
Hmm, I can't find the example in Google's book search.
 
Depends on the version of the cookbook maybe
There's been a few
31
Q: Docs.SO needs a review queue

Nicol BolasNow that the masses are allowed to make documentation changes, reviewing their pending requests is more important than ever. The number of edits jumped by several orders of magnitude across the board, and we're getting lots of crap edits that need to be declined or significantly improved. Howeve...

30 reviews/day D:
 
Hello guys... I have a stupid problem and I'm embarrassed to share it here... maybe it being too hot contributed to my stupidity not being able to resolve this myself... I'm simply trying to OPEN A FILE!!! and it just doesn't open and doesn't give any error and doesn't create a file... could you please just take a closer look at these 12 lines?
print(outDirFull)
debugFile = os.path.join(ScriptDir,outDirFull,"plot_debug.log")
print(debugFile)
print("Directing output to file: " + debugFile)
try:
    debugFileObject = open(debugFile, 'w')
    if not os.access(debugFile, os.W_OK):
        print("Write access not permitted on %s" % debugFile)
    debugFileObject.write("test")
    sys.stdout = debugFileObject
except Exception as e:
    print("Error: Unable to set stdout to file " + debugFile + ". Exception says: " + str(e))
 
Try not masking every single exception.
 
2:46 PM
Not a single error... and nothing is created...
 
lmao
 
Also try not opening with a two line tirade about how dumb you are, it's tiring.
Just ask your question like a normal person.
 
Also that's more than 5 lines.
I got to the end of try: and had to stop.
 
Sorry guys! It's a stupid question... I know that and I'm already embarrassed
 
Counting: it's as easy as 1, 2, a few.
 
2:47 PM
@Ffisegydd Come on man... give me a break ^_^
 
No.
 
Is this better?
 
Yes, now I can suggest you follow davidism's advice.
 
Now you can fix the loop in your brain and read to the end :P
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist I think being compliant and friendly is the way to go
 
2:48 PM
@AndrasDeak I'm sorry, I wasn't friendly?
 
a note from davidism is worth a flashing warning by other people:P
 
except Exception as e:
    print(str(e))
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist mildly snarky
 
How this pattern ever gained popularity, and why people don't see a problem with it, I'll never understand.
 
Exceptions stop code though, we don't want that.
 
2:49 PM
@davidism you're suggesting that I remove the exception?
I mean exception handling?
 
That's not exception handling, that's exception ignoring.
 
But if there's an exception it'll print a message, right?
I removed that try except and nothing changed...
 
Gah, there's so much wrong with this code. I can't reproduce your issue. Please [edit] to include a [mcve].
 
Dude.
 
2:52 PM
It's probably because you aren't flushing and didn't write a new line.
 
edit?
 
But this is possibly the worst way to a) log debug info b) open a file c) replace stderr d) handle exceptions e) post an example
 
Yeah.
 
This is for a website, so I don't have a choice
I want a debug file per session
 
Man, I'd love a 1 TB SSD cabbage.
 
2:53 PM
@davidism To be fair, TheQuantumPhysicist is printing the exception after the other stuff.
 
let me flush and see what'll happen... although sounds weird
it should flush at the end of the program, right?
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist I highly doubt your only choice is this.
 
Bear in mind that davidism is a web development team lead.
 
flushing didn't help
 
Honestly, based on history I'm just ready to garlic at this point.
 
2:54 PM
@davidism What's the right way to do this per session?
Nice!
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist try taking a look at the information provided and figuring out how I could possibly have enough context to answer that.
 
By the way, if you want to know how this (wrong) pattern came up, it came up by people who handle C++ exceptions the same way
 
But yeah, @TheQuantumPhysicist, catching generic Exception in isolation is rarely a good idea. You should make your exceptions as narrow as possible, and only have a generic catcher after one or more specific catchers.
 
@davidism I thought my code is self-contained except for some variables that define the path... which are irrelevant
 
@PM2Ring unless you rethrow, right?
 
2:56 PM
1 min ago, by The Quantum Physicist
@davidism What's the right way to do this per session?
That statement contains a whole ton of assumed context.
 
@davidism True. I would love to discuss that with you, if you don't mind, but would you like that?
I can tell you my website model
 
@davidism I rejected the one that I reviewed. Pasted some code verbatim in quotes and found it in dabeaz github... I am not sure there isn't more, since I cannot see to his edit history :D
 
and then you could suggest a better way
OK. Here's my website:
https://budker.uni-mainz.de/gnome/

Every call to that webpage creates a temporary directory that holds images to data
So what I want to achieve is get all debug information in that user's directory
 
;_;
 
so that I could debug individual visits to the website
 
2:58 PM
:D
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist he never said yes.
 
And honest that's a stupid way to do it.
 
You do not need a file per session, that's ridiculous.
 
2:59 PM
Also, let me just fire up my remote viewing psychic powers and take a look at what's running that website.
 
@Ffisegydd It's symbolic links
not files
it's files only on special requests
 
Of course, that definitely makes all the difference.
 
@davidism The website is php that executes the python script to create the pictures and data you see
 
garlic
 
DSM
This.. may not have been the best moment to appear.
 
3:00 PM
@DSM this morning with me, poke, and Antti going mental at Docs would have been better.
At least from a "eating popcorn enjoying the mayhem" point of view.
 
Depends, how badly are you craving Italian food? Because there's a whole lot of garlic.
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist clearly, you're using PHP here, I guess the best course of action would be to do all logging in PHP.
 
So this is actually a PHP question about how to capture stdout from an external command. Go ask the PHP room.
 
DSM
I think I'm going to go back to rewriting code which is too awful to redeem, and I'll see you lot this afternoon. ;-)
 
@MorganThrapp related: home-made pizza is about to get ready
 
3:01 PM
@AnttiHaapala That's a nice idea actually... maybe I should go that way
 
lol:D
 
@AndrasDeak Mmmm, pizza. Tonight will mark night 3 of eating pizza for dinner.
 
@davidism I'm doing it through python
I'm redirecting python's output
 
Thank goodness for Antti's insight
 
3:01 PM
as you see in my code
 
@MorganThrapp my long lost brother
 
Did davidism take a Xanax or something?
 
@AndrasDeak God I love pizza. I'm probably going to get an eggplant parm sub for lunch, and just go full Italian.
 
@AnttiHaapala Actually I know how to do this in PHP.
So there's no issue
I don't need that room
 
3:02 PM
@Ffisegydd I think docs just burned him out.
 
clearly you should do it in the language that you know
 
But everyone else, thank you very much. I learned a very precious lesson today
 
@AnttiHaapala It's never late to learn more :)
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist bracing himself
 
3:03 PM
@AndrasDeak Not really... I don't give a shit
 
oh OK, I thought you were going to explain the lesson;)
 
USS S.... NCC-1702-X
 
Hey, I thought I submitted deletion of one of the random topics on numpy...
 
I think any smart person would know what the lesson is
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist I guess, but I didn't actually pay attention. And I never said I'm smart
Oh, I flagged it for deletion, thank goodness
 
3:05 PM
@AndrasDeak Fair point. I can't think of a good use case of using a generic except Exception: or a naked except: that doesn't re-raise the exception after printing (or logging) some context info. But it's still generally better to have specific except clauses that handle specific exceptions first. A fallback catch-all is basically saying "ok bad stuff has happened, and I don't know how to deal with it, but here's some info you might find useful".
 
Yeah, the only time I'll do a naked except is this:
if __name__ == '__main__':
    try:
        generate_files()
    except Exception as E:
        logging.exception(E)
        raise
 
All my excepts are naked because I'm always naked when I code.
 
@Ffisegydd ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
okay the flag function is really, really confusing
 
@JGreenwell tell me about it
 
3:08 PM
We need more topics, we're losing to Java and C#
 
I flagged something for deletion, then a guy submitted a delete edit based on that, then 2 hours later there's a conflicting edit that deletes the same thing, but unrelated to my flag
 
If you know how to handle an error, handle it. If you don't, let the exception bubble up on the off-chance that the calling code knows how to handle it.
Jul 17 '15 at 12:55, by PM 2Ring
In accordance with the ancient programmer proverb: Never test for an error condition that you don't know how to handle.
 
but I don't think I can delete on my own without a flag...wtf
 
@Ffisegydd Isn’t that a good thing?
 
@Ffisegydd I am involved in way too many things now. I need to improve my calendar skills stat. The Xanax-like state is just a byproduct of schedule overflow.
 
3:09 PM
@poke On the one hand we've got the docs and their awfulness, on the other we've got beating Java# at something. Tis a tough call.
 
yeah, I'm kinda hoping my flag didn't bump someone else's delete flag....doesn't help that it shows "XXXX is also editing this draft" when your trying to do stuff but the horribleness of the versioning system has been addressed enough
 
@JGreenwell lol, not "remove the whole example"
just that line of opinion at the end
 
yeah, confusing
 
sprouts
@JGreenwell you can retract your edit and amend it to just remove the line I think.
 
People, people, I beseech thee! stop co-operating with the abomination!
 
3:22 PM
How it got two upvotes is a mystery.
 
grr...okay, that didn't work and I'm too busy atm to deal with that anymore.
 
@davidism The question is about the relative advantages of using python versus flask-specific modules. — Ricardo Cruz 1 min ago
guy really doesn't understand what "opinion" means
@AnttiHaapala shocking insight :-P
 
argh too hot here
I like the summer in Finland. It is the nicest day of the year.
Only, why does it have to be today.
 
also shouldn't it be either extend the sys path and import module -> then restore the sys.path or use importlib.util to load it directly (when loading a module stored in a non-standard place)
anyway, off to meetings and trying to explain very technical things to non-technical administrators
 
3:38 PM
cbg
thoughts on this?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andromium/the-superbook-turn-your-smartphone-into-a-laptop-f?ref=hero_thanks
 
@davidism, no, it is not. I have since tested flask-mail against stmplib and discovered that flask wrappers offer asynchronization behind the scenes, for instance. — Ricardo Cruz 9 mins ago
I have no idea what this guy is talking about.
 
@idjaw I'm very skeptical, to put it mildly.
 
99$ seems very strange
too low...something is not right
I wouldn't be surprised what you get is the equivalent of a leappad.
 
Yeah, far too cheap
Even if there isn’t any computing power inside, we’re still talking a display, a keyboard, a touchpad, and a big battery.
 
the battery alone at that size would be arguably that price
 
3:46 PM
even official keyboards cost almost that amount
 
If I needed to do something on my smartphone using some 'desktop' view, Aridroid solved my problems.
 
Also, Windows 10
if you want a phone + desktop in a phone body
I honestly wouldn’t know what I would possibly do with an Android operating system in a laptop form factor
It’s not like I have any productivity based stuff on my phone.
 
use an android ide
 
It wouldn't be an android os either, it would be their app with full permissions to your phone acting as its own os.
 
Once upon a time I thought it would be pretty cool to have productivity apps on my smartphone. I had vim installed, I had an interpreter, and ssh in to servers. Then the novelty died out after an hour
and I realized this was stupid
 
3:51 PM
Unless this is a feature of Android that I wasn't aware of. In which case they're not really doing anything novel.
Just get a ChromeBook.
 
Or a laptop
 
So you don't actually get Android.
 
and tbh, if I wanted something like this, as I mentioned, this works great
and you still have your desktop world to actually be productive. And not pretend productive
 
stackoverflow.com/q/38527088 comments have become boring
 
haha...OK..sorry, that immediately reminded me of:
 

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