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user559633
11:00 AM
Would you be okay with your paycheck being delivered a few months late if it was on very nice paper?
 
Does it smell nice too?
 
A more apt comparison would be: getting your paycheque on time, but then it miraculously bounces three months later, and deletes your house into the bargain.
 
user559633
Calling me out on that metaphor is fair.
 
I have another idea. How about give points to tasks after they are done?
 
@khajvah isn't all this agile scrum thingy about planning?
 
11:02 AM
you will still get the benefit of estimation
 
@khajvah the point is PRE estimation
 
user559633
@khajvah How are you supposed to commit to business arrangements/organize your company around "it's done when it's done?"
 
@tzaman do both. preestimate to managers
 
and since it seems you're only thinking about this from the programmer's perspective
the point of pre-estimating is when the sprint is too large (always)
 
then after the tasks are done, give actual points based on history
 
11:03 AM
you get to tell the POs
to decide which feature won't make it
 
@tzaman you can preestimate based on previous history
 
user559633
FWIW: I hate agile, but reality for most business is that you need at least some way to estimate deliverables.
 
@tristan do you need it?
 
reassigning points is kind of worthless, since that task is already done
 
but record the actual points afterwards
 
11:04 AM
mentally reassigning them does make sense since it helps with making future estimation more accurate
 
@tzaman nope, the point is to measure the team's performance
you will get more accurate measure if you decide on points after solving the issue
 
user559633
@AndrasDeak In my current thing? Hell no, but I've worked at a number of places with non-trivial budgets/team sizes that drank the agile kool aid
 
the whole reason to measure team performance is to make future estimates better.
 
@tzaman You still make future estimates
 
@tristan OK, that was my suspicion, just wanted to make sure:)
 
user559633
11:05 AM
It's weird to see a consultant's dirty trick being paraded as an accurate way to predict team productivity.
 
considering that I don't know anything about agile thingies
 
but you don't record those estimates. You record only the points decided after finishing the task
i.e. we think that this story is worth 5 points, so estimation is 1 week.
turns out this storyis 3 points, so keep that 3 in history
 
If you do post-estimation, how can you predict delivery dates?
 
I'll go out on a limb and say that any management system that is meant to Make It Work should be as foolproof as possible, and there are surely a lot of fools involved
 
@holdenweb based on previous estimations
 
11:07 AM
Also, you are equating story points and developer time: mistake
 
@holdenweb I am not actually.
 
user559633
Yeah, estimate on complexity (but still expect it done by a deadline, even if it's a grinding amount of work)
 
"we think that this story is worth 5 points, so estimation is 1 week."
 
@holdenweb I left out "based on our team's performance" part as it wasn't important
 
user559633
user image
6
 
user559633
11:09 AM
That's actually my problem with agile. If you think it's going to take a week, treat your coders like big boys and tell them they have a week.
 
user559633
Obfuscating time and points is dirty consultant trickery.
 
And if you think you know how long it will take you are probably wrong
 
user559633
Is a week too large a "resolution" or t shirt size or animal or not-actually-fibbonacci number? Okay, split it into smaller chunks.
 
^^ +1
 
@holdenweb isn't that the point of estimation?
 
11:10 AM
Yes, but at the gross level, not at the level of individual issues
 
user559633
Depends who you're trying to protect at this point.
 
well, the points is not the time. My point is post-evaluation of points is better
 
user559633
"Okay, you hate agile ~~points~~, so we've broken it into hourly tasks"
-"WHOA, I'm a skilled engineer, not a day laborer"
 
Well you are free to use whatever methodology you like on your projects.
I'm just trying to get a product out. "Just"? Who do I think I am kidding ... ?
 
user559633
The article I linked from Steve Yegge on this topic is a long read, but really quite good.
 
11:13 AM
I don't see the value in post-estimation (though we do review issues that take far longer than anticipated, as the scope might have crept)
 
@holdenweb more correct points?
 
user559633
^ I used to call that task "being a manager"
 
hence, better future estimations
 
But how do you apply the learning from one issue to other unrelated ones? How do you cope with the fact that some tasks are more completely specified than others?
How do you account for individual differences in productivity?
 
user559633
How does Agile™ help with this?
 
11:16 AM
now, I am asked to make a plan for myself & others about how I will do a mobile application in 3 weeks, with unknown scope...
I say: "why can't we do it a sprint at a time by doing first this, then that, then that and see how it works
they say: "no, we need a plan. With a schedule"
 
user559633
sounds like you need someone to set the scope
 
"that we know that the application will be done in 3 weeks2
 
@holdenweb You still estimate with points like you used to based on the work that the programmer did.
 
... this request for a plan was made in a design meeting that took 2 hours
that basically just revamped everything that was going to be done in the app.
 
Sigh. Sorry, Antti. If the tasks aren't defined, what chance do you stand of meeting a deadline?
 
11:19 AM
since I need to work in an unfamiliar framework (ionic) on android, do build automation, do things like offline sync, etc etc, there are some variables that I just do not know until 3 weeks later,
then I need to give a schedule
they say "Estimate"
then I say: "let's say 3 weeks +- 3"
they say "the plan needs to be better"
 
let's just all agree that managers suck
 
user559633
I think that's fair for them to say, lol.
 
I am like "if I am the only guy doing anything to this then what good does it do to schedule everything beforehand.
 
user559633
@khajvah nope, sorry.
 
@khajvah I'm tempted to ask whether you have ever been part of a medium software project - one with a hundred or so developers? In those cases, you have to have ways to handle the complexity without getting stuck in the weeds with all the details
 
11:20 AM
@holdenweb nope
 
user559633
Learning to know what you can deliver in a time period and doing that is what makes it a job.
 
As a manager, I take objection to your last statement
I'd be quite happy to agree that managing sucks
 
basically I haven't built a prototype yet
 
user559633
Managing sucks, except for when it doesn't.
 
except, those aren't managers
 
11:21 AM
I wanted to say, non-engineer managers but was too lazy
 
they're damagers
 
@AnttiHaapala sounds quite familiar
 
and yes, that guy is an engineer, a civil engineer...
so I try to explain how this is a bit different from constructing a bridge...
 
So ask him "how long does it take to build a bridge"?
 
@holdenweb did that: "one year"
"that's an estimate"
but it is not good if I say "3 weeks +- 3"
 
11:23 AM
OK, he's full of shit
 
I need to flesh out a plan...
 
user559633
Ask him how long it would take him to build a bridge of unspecified length, width, and load, made of materials he doesn't really get to choose.
 
even though I only ever have done a 3-day POC proving that the build works and the product runs on exactly 2 devices
@tristan except in this case I get to choose the length, width and load of the bridge, but not the location :P
 
Surely that's all you can do. "Here's the plan. Many tasks are incompletely specified, so the estimates are all extremely approximate. I am prepared to start working on this plan, but I am unable to give an accurate prediction for completion due to the many unknowns still remaining."
 
user559633
@AnttiHaapala Oh. So choose the deliverables that will let you get it done in 2 weeks, commit to 3, knowing there will be some unexpecteds.
 
user559633
11:25 AM
It sounds like "delivered by $date" is the deciding factor here.
 
no it is not :D
there is no delivery date
but they will start complaining that why it doesn't work as promised by that date
 
user559633
As they should.
 
the 2->3 is an underestimation
about the complexities involved
 
@AnttiHaapala 3 weeks +-3 months
 
more like
so I say "we have this backlog and we do it in order"
it is an internal tool.
it doesn't need any date except "asap"
the fact that I need to do schedules, plans, whatever makes it !asap.
 
11:28 AM
@holdenweb isn't 100 or so devs on a single project considered a large project :D?
if not, I am doomed
 
Nope. A large project might encompass 10,000 engineers in fifteen different companies
 
this project encompasses 0.5 engineers working in one company
 
Personally I've stayed away from them since being involved in one early in my career
 
for 2-x weeks
 
@holdenweb I can't imagine how it's all managed to be honest. Even with perfect scrum workflow
 
11:30 AM
what he didn't agree with was that it would be done in XP manner with one-week sprints.
because needs to be a schedule
which backlog isn't?
 
user559633
Can you go through a backlog and make any sort of time-estimate on the components?
 
no
becuase I've never written anything such
it takes me 3 weeks to experiment how long it takes to do it,
 
And involve the risk of (to quote one famous failure) mistaken assumptions about items such as units of measurement (does "altitude 300" mean "300 feet" or "300 metres"?)
 
user559633
@AnttiHaapala Ah, I see now.
 
user559633
Can you try the "plan for a week of exploration, then deliver an estimation?"
 
11:33 AM
this is because I have done a 2-day POC that I can do a small fraction of the stuff using the ionic framework and know that already by that time there were unknowables.
@tristan I can try...
 
The Mars Climate Orbiter (formerly the Mars Surveyor '98 Orbiter) was a 338-kilogram (745 lb) robotic space probe launched by NASA on December 11, 1998 to study the Martian climate, Martian atmosphere, and surface changes and to act as the communications relay in the Mars Surveyor '98 program for Mars Polar Lander. However, on September 23, 1999, communication with the spacecraft was lost as the spacecraft went into orbital insertion, due to ground-based computer software which produced output in non-SI units of pound-seconds (lbf s) instead of the SI units of newton-seconds (N s) specified in...
 
but they're like you said you're a professional, why can't you estimate this short time
 
user559633
I think that's what I'd do, and think that's reasonable.
 
@tristan that is called XP, or Scrum or ... whatever you want
 
user559633
No thanks, I'm on 10.
 
11:34 AM
basically that by working on the backlog you will get understanding about what it entails
 
user559633
I mean, you can say that without the consultant snakeoil coating :)
 
so I tell them: "we will work this from backlog and then we can give better estimates, in one week sprints, delivering after each sprint"
I am not a consultant.
I am an employee.
... but I guess not for long.
 
user559633
It was a knock on EXTREME or OMG AGILE
 
of course I didn't say that.
they wouldn't even know what that means
 
BTW, what's the alternative workflow of Agile?
 
11:36 AM
requirements upfront
 
then?
 
user559633
@khajvah You mean what other way would you manage a software project?
 
the "waterfall" which meant something completely different.
 
yes
 
no one does it the exact opposite way if they don't want to fail
@khajvah the original waterfall method said: "put 30 % of the budget aside, then build a prototype using that, then as you have done the prototype only then finalize the analysis, design, coding and testing"
 
11:38 AM
@AnttiHaapala only that?
 
then someone started saying that someone in their right mind said "write specs, design, code, test"
 
user559633
Date-driven where you, as a qualified estimator, agree to deliver something, by a given date, then you divvy up tasks to your team(s), based on difficulty of task/expertise, etc.
 
which is false.
... which is going to fail :D
... or the schedule had slack
 
user559633
What is going to fail?
 
you can fix 2 of time, scope, resources
if you fix 3, then you must be pretty darn good
so no experimental stuff.
 
user559633
11:40 AM
Or you're able to control those variables.
 
so basically you're reinventing the wheel again
now they ask to fix time, resources fixed to 0.5, and scope is unknown but not controllable.
 
user559633
disagree
 
user559633
then who is setting your scope?
 
they are
as in the program must do what they want it does
but they cannot tell it yet...
because they don't really realize.
there is no spec.
 
user559633
okay, so i don't know how you'd give an estimation in any project management setup given this problem definition
 
11:42 AM
well, I can write a spec
but I writing the spec is counterproductive:
I spend 2 days writing a spec
instead of coding for 2 days getting a better estimate and delivering them a hands-on demo
that they can tell "no omg we didn't think it would be like this"
 
user559633
right, but if someone else decides the scope, what's the point of doing a spec?
 
idk
there is no point
 
user559633
fun.
 
they've never managed a software project, ever before.
but they want to manage me.
because they're managers.
 
they studied business administration to manage
 
11:44 AM
no, civil engineers... again...
 
meme
 
whereas I went to the project management school.
 
@AnttiHaapala what's project management school?>
 
aw man, sorry Antti about your poopular situation
 
this is finland.
basically, we've got the world's biggest cost overrun in a construction here... (though that is partially French at fault), then failures like...
 
user559633
11:48 AM
Fast, cheap, good => a burrito
 
the extension of Helsinki metro was to open in August
2 weeks prior to the opening day they said: "sorry, it seems we're not going to open in time"
now they stopped giving estimates altogether.
say "well at least we're certain that it won't open until January"
"beyond that, insha Allah"
 
I need to work on a big project to understand how it's managed
 
@khajvah me too
 
I have 0 experience in management
@AnttiHaapala let's start a project and make it as big as facebook just to get experience.,
3
 
user559633
lol
 
11:53 AM
not only is there a problem with the conflicting scope
 
@MartijnPieters I'm one of the heretics who thinks that people should learn not from getting answers to their questions immediately on SO...
 
but there are 0.5 engineering resources and 5 different versoins of prioritized backlogs
 
user559633
sounds like your managers need a manager.
 
@tristan the worst one is a vice president already.
 
user559633
sounds like a job for a senior vice president.
 
11:54 AM
@AnttiHaapala I'm concerned for whatever company they work for.
 
obviously the guy doesn't have neough work.
@ThatOneRandomScrub ... and then this is one of the better companies in Finland in the industry...
 
@AnttiHaapala Okay, now I'm concerned for Finland.
 
me too
@ThatOneRandomScrub we still believe in Nuclear energy as a nation after this fiasco: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_Nuclear_Power_Plant#Unit_3
 
user559633
Construction delays/mismanagement should make the country not believe in nuclear energy?
 
11:59 AM
@tristan in that "it is economically feasible"
 
what's wrong with nuclear energy?
 
"According to some estimates, Olkiluoto reactor could be the fifth or sixth most expensive structure in the world, even more expensive than the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland."
 
user559633
@AnttiHaapala what's the alternative?
 
So good idea, bad implementation?
 
AFAIK, nuclear is the cheapest
 
12:01 PM
"AFAIK", the cost estimate is that norway flooding cheap hydroelectric means that it is really hard to even break even.
 
@khajvah not necessarily
 
oh, Rhubarb.
 
we got a 10-billion-euro loan from Putin to upgrade our old nuclear power plant, in a deal that was classified up to the last screw and bolt for 30 years
guess how profitable that will turn out to be
 
@AnttiHaapala My entire country costs as much probably
but the nuclear reactor is much better investment
 
@khajvah I didn't say that...
 
12:04 PM
@AndrasDeak be like Putin
 
I am just worrying that beer cans would be yet even better investment than either of these...
 
I am up for anything connected with beer
 
well done @holdenweb for your new hire
 
morning all
 
@AnttiHaapala if it makes you feel better, my manager is a timezone away and has literally no knowledge of the projects I work with
 
12:18 PM
hmm "literally no knowledge" meaning what? :D
 
no idea about what I work on, the needs of my project, or anything else
 
so, free hands!!!
 
I have to go through all the motions of "being managed" still though :(
 
yet... you're free to do anything you want
 
when you put it that way it sounds a lot more awesome :D
 
12:20 PM
could be.
 
Hello People!
 
@DanielEngel cbg
 
just found about a way to use ffmpeg through Python!
 
So sometimes my wifi at home gets real slow until I reboot. I tried using this tracert thing to determine where the holdup was, and the very first hop reported a 1000 ms round-trip time. I'm guessing that's my router. I thought maybe some weird caching thing had happened, so I disabled my laptop's wifi and ran spoofMAC and re-enabled my laptop's wifi so the router would think I was a new computer. Still got 1000 ms trip times though.
One might think that the problem, then, is with the laptop and not the router, but my cell phone also had poor connectivity at the same time.
 
odd
 
user559633
12:30 PM
@Kevin post the result (of the traceroute)
 
And it can't be "you just have bad connectivity in that part of your house" because I use wifi in that part of my house every day and sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad.
I do live four blocks from a thousand foot tall radio antenna, but it's just a regular radio station. If it created interference, I'd expect it to be constant, not intermittent.
 
user559633
and it should be in a different range
 
This your implementation equally work for me, however because of peculiar needs, my previous implementation is now working after I followed the suggestion by @zvone above. I just moved my new attribute above supper()__init__. Thanks — Bluelily 24 mins ago
ragequits
 
user559633
I wish someone would supper().__init__ for me :/
 
so basically that guy is subclassing beautifulsoup to use it as a html parser.
 
12:33 PM
I wonder if I can get, like, a tiny radio dish that can determine the origin of radio signals etc. Then I could point it at the radio tower and see what it's throwing off in the wifi range.
@tristan I'll remember to save it next time.
I wonder what process led this guy to decide that this kind of code was the appropriate approach:
def Lever():
    global LeverVar
    if LeverVar == True:
        LeverVar = False
        exec("OFF()")
    else:
        LeverVar = True
        exec("ON()")
 
user559633
@Kevin Cool, let me know. The first hop should be your immediate router (but might not be if it's some local NAT or something), fwiw. The reason why the wifi stays slow probably has to do with rate negotiation, so it might be worth doing a quick script to ping some endpoint to figure out if it typically happens around some specific time.
 
Sometimes it happens after I make particularly strenuous actions (ex. high quality video streams, or web scraping projects where I forget to sleep at all in between 50 GET requests), and sometimes it happens for apparently no reason.
 
throttling by ISP?
mine does that if it sees you're doing P2P traffic
 
user559633
not if high latency to first hop and the first hop is a local router
 
ah
and same goes for DNS issues, right?
 
user559633
12:47 PM
depends on what kind of DNS issue
 
I know once I had a problem where I pinged something, and after 10 seconds I got a series of very low pings
 
@Kevin What the actual...? I wish I could un-see that code.
 
but it took 10 seconds to start pinging
so my ping was low, but everything loaded slow
I switched to google's DNS servers and it instantly fixed
 
user559633
i'm not well versed in IEEE 802.11, but I wonder if packet loss leads to a renegotiation of rates
 
anyway, I'm off to teach, rhubarb
 
12:48 PM
I'm 80% sure that tracert doesn't count the time it takes to turn "google.com" into 216.58.217.110 when reporting hop round-trip time
 
user559633
And if the router is being a poopy pants, if it decides on the lowest rate for $duration for all clients (including new ones, as your MAC spoof test (if device is actually represented differently) would suggest)
 
yeah, I knew to fiddle with DNS since pinging the IP worked like a charm
 
user559633
@Kevin For new hosts, I think that's done out of band from the results, but I've have to wireshark to find out
 
@tristan Hmm, interesting idea. I make a zillion requests in a minute, the router sees "this connection has lost X packets in the last minute, better lower its rate" despite the fact that X lost packets out of a total of Y where X << Y is perfectly fine and ordinary
It would be dumb if the router looked at lost packets per unit time instead of lost packets per total amount of packets sent, but I don't expect engineers to be very smart :>
It sort of makes some sense to propagate that lower rate to new computers too if it can tell that the new computer's signal strength is exactly as strong as the old one's
 
12:55 PM
Addendum: I don't expect engineers to be very smart if they work in a Chinese wireless router sweatshop and haven't slept in 36 hours.
 
user559633
And also prioritizing "support any device" over "provide highest performance to devices that correctly implement standards"
 
Sounds like a recipe for the biggest ball of spaghetti code
 
1:07 PM
The exec("OFF()") guy thanked me for my helpful advice. How nice that he's seen the light. But we may never know how he got the idea to begin with.
 
Cannot reproduce, works just fine. Please do not post pictures of stack traces. Include them as text in your post, with proper formatting. — Ilja Everilä 1 hour ago
@IljaEverilä I was asked to add the stack trace - so I added it — whytheq 38 mins ago
 
@AnttiHaapala the guy has 14k rep
 
user559633
I assume the exec on/off code got that way through the course of iteration
 
@khajvah a clueless person with 14k rep is just a clueless person, with 14k rep.
surprisingly they don't have any silver badges
 
@AnttiHaapala ah excel-vba excel
everything is clear
 
1:13 PM
500+ questions, 800 answers... with 15k rep
I sense cargo cult
got 1 nice answer, but that's 3 years old already :d
 
My best guess for the exec guy is that he got confused while messing around with event binding in Tkinter. He probably had something like myButton.bind("<1>", OFF()), noticed it called OFF right away instead of registering the callback, and wandered through weird-solution-space until he found something that worked that happened to use exec.
He updated his mental model of Python accordingly to include the fact "exec is good and useful for calling functions" and proceeded from there
 
♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ zoom zoom zoom zoom we're going to the moon ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
cbg
 
Almost wrote "my buest for the exec guy..." there
Coincidentally, this week I'm reading Verne's "From the Earth to the Moon". @idjaw's comment is an exactly correct plot summation.
250 pages in and they're still arguing about whether the mile-long cannon should be rifled or not. This is like... Engineering fanfiction.
And yet it's surprisingly easy reading due to the author's obvious enthusiasm.
The astrophysics are a bit questionable... They have to fire the projectile while the moon is both 1) at its perihelion; and 2) aligned precisely with the zenith of the launch site. Somehow they calculate the precise time this occurs, before they choose where the launch site is going to be.
 
Suddenly they realized this was no longer an 8 point story, but rather 13....and the breakdown of tasks continued well in to the night
 
I'm no geometer, but I'm pretty sure Texas' zenith is a different direction from Florida's zenith.
I became physically angry at the chapter that "proves" that the moon has an atmosphere, has water, and is inhabited. If Verne had said "well we looked in our telescopes and saw little green men" that would have been fine, but he tried to prove it using only real-world contemporary science. "Bailey's beads, therefore water" with no intervening logic is kind of a flagrant violation of the scientific method.
 
1:26 PM
I love the esoteric pages that I get for my wiki queue from here. :D
 
Also apparently the men that live on Jupiter have a highly advanced society in comparison to ours only because they have a longer year and less axial tilt.
Because those things bring harmony to society somehow???
 
@Withnail The trick is to get Kevin mad about bad science, and then just read and learn.
 
There are some quaint early scifi stories on Project Gutenberg, eg The Land of the Changing Sun
 
Trying to decide how realistic "we'll supply oxygen for ourselves using chemical reactions" is. Did they really have that kind of tech in the 1860s? What chemicals do you mix to get O2 without any deadly byproducts?
 
nice, I need to alter production db table
 
1:32 PM
Maybe electrolysis, which goes back to 1800, but I don't know if "let's run a charge through this thing" counts as a chemical reaction
Or, if it counts as one today, whether it counted as one back then. Or if it counted as one back then, whether the average reader of fantasy books could be trusted to understand that
Still looking forward to how they're going to accelerate the craft to 12,000 kilometers per second using a 900 foot cannon without squishing the passengers flat like a pancake
 
@Kevin I'm pretty sure they did. Submarines carry oxygen candles for emergency use.
 
Ooh, neat.
 
That's cool
 
"Oxygen had been produced by several chemists prior to its discovery in 1774, but they failed to recognize it as a distinct element. "
 
@Kevin The mixing of metric and imperial made me twitch.
@PM2Ring As did Mir, they used them after the fire
 
1:38 PM
Blame Mr Verne.
 
I wonder if he was called "the family Jules"
 
lol
Read that just after khajvah's top star comment - almost did lol
 
Also at one point in the story someone mentions Edgar Allen Poe and then there was a full paragraph declaring "three cheers for Poe" and it immediately reminded me of this
 
Speaking of early scifi, I recommend the Arcot, Morey, and Wade stories by John W. Campbell, who established himself as a writer before he became an editor for later luminaries like Asimov.
"John Wood Campbell Jr. (June 8, 1910 – July 11, 1971) was an American science fiction writer and editor. As editor of Astounding Science Fiction (later called Analog Science Fiction and Fact) from late 1937 until his death, he is generally credited with shaping the Golden Age of Science Fiction."
 
"rendezvoused" is really an awful word...
 
1:45 PM
And here's Campbell's page on Project Gutenberg
 
Every time I read a century-old book I have to look up a word every three pages. If I manage to remember half of them, I'll become a scrabble monster.
"Yes, adduct is a word, do you want to challenge it? Do you want to make a little side wager on the side?"
 
As opposed to a side wager elsewhere?
 
[pan to the side, where Kevin is making that hand gesture where you rub your fingers together, which somehow indicates money]
[pan back to Kevin's opponent, Kevin's hand sliding back out of frame.] ... "No, just the challenge is fine. :-|"
@KevinMGranger Yes, you can also make a side wager under the table, so the scrabble judges can't see. This is, of course, in violation of scrabble law.
 
But the side, where they can see, is fine? Oh, they must take a cut, right?
I never knew board games were full of such corruption.
 
Making the wager on the side implies that the result will be public knowledge, and the winner will have the additional prize of gloating about it to everyone.
 
1:50 PM
guys, how do you deal with db scheme changes?
 
Crying, mostly
 
do you write scripts for altering/updating tables?
 
DSM
Leftover Thanksgiving cabbage for all!
 
at work we have a big repository of scripts you have to run to get the database into working shape after you restore it from a real old backup. the repository has 17 subfolders and I doubt any living man has actually run all of them.
In practice it's more like 1) run project. 2) get error saying "missing column". 3) grep through the repository for that column name. 4) run all scripts that refer to it and contain the words "ALTER TABLE"
It's awful and I hate it, yet it is the only way I have ever known.
 
1:53 PM
@DSM oh, Canadian Thanksgiving. I was concerned for your health for a second.
 
that doesn't sound promising
 
That's not to say no one has tried, it's just that one of the scripts kills you. They're trying to get rid of it, but no one wants to reproduce it, as you can imagine.
 
DSM
@Kevin: we have that issue with one of our applications. It's one of the ones I want to replace entirely with a Python script + postgresql solution running in a docker instance.
 
It should only take log(N) deaths, where N is the number of scripts.
Or, no, you can do it in one, can't you... Well, management is going with the log(N) approach anyway, too late to change it
 
DSM
Mental note: never interview with HugeCo.
 
1:55 PM
Their "widows and orphans" health plan is very generous...
 
DSM
My nonexistent dependents will be grateful.
 
You could always gather up some street vagrants and legally adopt them. Just to stick it to The Man.
 
DSM
Just to be clear, the proposed order here is (1) interview with HugeCo (2), get employed by HugeCo, (3) adopt vagants, (4) run death scripts, (5) don't survive, but be pleased that (6) my new dependents will be well-taken care of?
This plan has very many pieces.
 

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