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12:46 AM
@MartijnPieters thanks for the answer earlier ;-)
 
1:03 AM
wow downvoted an answer to a blatant homework question and it instantly disappeared, even though it was right :o
 
 
2 hours later…
2:49 AM
wow. talking to myself through the closevote script. par-ty!
 
3:33 AM
When I try to upgrade Jupyter, I got the following error. How to fix it? Thanks

Exception:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "d:\dropbox\chamc\projects\python3.4\lib\site-packages\pip\basecommand.py
", line 215, in main
status = self.run(options, args)
File "d:\dropbox\chamc\projects\python3.4\lib\site-packages\pip\commands\insta
ll.py", line 317, in run
prefix=options.prefix_path,
File "d:\dropbox\chamc\projects\python3.4\lib\site-packages\pip\req\req_set.py
", line 736, in install
requirement.uninstall(auto_confirm=True)
 
3:54 AM
@enderland spamming days :D
@enderland EWWWWWW
@Tony well, you've installed something in dropbox, chances are that dropbox is still syncing or perhaps made a sync error and destroyed your file
I'd go to near line 555 and find out what file it is reading from, then try to fix by hand
 
4:24 AM
@enderland well, most of those would've been handled faster by the socvr
 
 
1 hour later…
5:48 AM
I will try
 
6:24 AM
@enderland No problem! :-)
Glad I was of help!
@enderland tsk tsk, downvoting a helpful answer?
 
6:38 AM
morning
quick question
I have the following list ['3a', 'T4est', 'Thi1s', 'is2']
I want to do a natural sort
I imported a library natsort and did this natsorted(name_of_list)
I did that too sorted(name_of_list,key=natural_keys)
none of the things did what I wanted , which is this : ['Thi1s', 'is2','3a', 'T4est']
 
Why would they sort that way?
What's the logic for that sort? I'm not sure it's a natural sort
Is it the numbers?
 
hey @Ffisegydd this aim of the exercise. I thought it was simple but I spent my sunday afternoon and bit of yesterday's eve on it
it is the numbers , you are correct
coming back, need to see the doc
 
Write a function to extract the numbers and return them. Use that as the key function
Make sure you return the numbers as numbers, not as a string
 
6:56 AM
@AndyK natsort is for sorting ['a 1', 'a 100', 'a b', 'a c'] in that order
 
7:25 AM
Cabbage, all
 
8:00 AM
@Ffisegydd I can do that. Thanks for your insight
 
Cabbage
@holdenweb Hammered
 
8:17 AM
\o
 
Hi @AndyK Did you get that sorting function fixed?
 
not yet, @PM2Ring. I will follow @Ffisegydd's advice though. I think I can handle that. If not, I'll get back to you, guys. But need to finish a few things as tomo is my last day at current job. Catch u in a bit.
 
Rightio
 
cabbage
really hard exam in 2 days. And a really hard deadline at work in 2 days
life is fun
 
8:35 AM
morning cbg
 
9:08 AM
At least you're keeping busy. I'd rather be terrified than bored
 
I just wanna lie down and watch some stupid TV series whole day long
 
Cabbage!
 
@holdenweb This x1000.
 
9:31 AM
Life is certainly terrifying for me at present - we are in Beta planning. Have gained agreement from the rest of the management team that we will use a standard agile planning process, with sized issues and a burn-down based on measured capacities
This doesn't, however, mean that there won't be bitching when the first estimates are produced and a drastic scope reduction is required.
Particularly given that some managers feel that we should beat the staff until they are more productive. That's probably my biggest issue at present. Oh well, off to talk about staff appraisals ...
 
Speaking of agile, I checked out scrum thing
Didn't like it at all
 
^ I think that sums up every other experience I heard
 
seems like non-engineer project owners and scrum masters control everything
which makes no sense really
micromanagement is terrible
 
9:47 AM
@khajvah that's not how scrum should work: first of all, scrum master is not a fixed position, second, a scrum master's only job is to make the life of the team-members easier! well, as for the product owners: their only power is, how they prioritize user-stories
 
stories are written by PO right?
 
that can be the case, yeah
 
what about points? how can PO, being a non-engineer, decide how "hard" is the story
 
cbg all
What's the etiquette with regards to GitHub projects and raising issues related to code that works but has python code quality issues? Specifically I'm looking at some code where they consistently do:
for i in range(len(args)):
    plotter.add(args[i].test)
 
@khajvah story points are usually voted for by the team
 
9:57 AM
is this type of thing worth submitting an issue about or not?
 
@shuttle87 Highly depends on the project. If you think it’s worth it, then sure, go ahead and provide a pull request
 
@shuttle87 I'd say probably more a pull request than an issue
Ah, beaten to it.
 
@poke the team can't correctly value the upcoming stories either
 
I personally wouldn’t create just an issue for it; either already fix it so they just need to merge it, or don’t care
 
Ok thanks for the advice everyone :)
 
9:59 AM
@khajvah It’s not really about correctness. It’s about perceived complexity based on the information given by the story.
If you cannot evaluate its complexity, then the story is badly written.
 
@khajvah User-Stories does not have points!
 
Isn’t the complexity measured in complexity “points”? :P
 
when user-stories becames tasks in the sprint-back-log, the team will split it into tasks, and ads points to them
@poke yepp, but in the product backlog there is only priority, not complexity
 
@PeterVaro who breaks it down to tasks?
 
(but maybe I'm wrong -- still not an expert on scrum -- but this is how we always did it before..)
@khajvah the team on a sprint meeting
 
10:05 AM
so there is the story, and when it needs to go to a sprint, the team splits it to tasks
that makes more sense
 
yepp, (as I said) this is how we did it before -- otherwise how would a non-tech PO split it into tasks and rank their complexities?
 
Usually I've found it convenient for team lead / senior engineers to sit down with the product owners and have a "backlog creation / grooming" session where user stories get turned into high level tasks and roughly prioritized
then the whole team during sprint planning puts the top N backlog tasks into the sprint and breaks down into subtasks and assigns points
 
@PeterVaro I didn't know user stories where being split into tasks.
 
the prioritization is how PO controls the development of the product, the complexity ranking, is how the team controls the sprints -- or as @tzaman said, how the team leads controls the sprint
 
@khajvah you can think of the user story as the "customer view" of the job, and the task(s) as the "engineer view"
 
10:08 AM
^ +1
 
customer = "I want to have a wishlist in addition to my shopping cart"
 
got it but I don't understand why do we need all these stuff?
 
engineer = "ok we'll need a new database table, migrations, figure out UI for moving things between cart and wishlist, implement said UI, testing, etc. etc."
that's 6+ tasks
you can't track all of that just in the "story"
 
@khajvah every agile method exist for one reason: it will give you a visual feedback, on how things worked, are working and hopefully will work out!
 
what does it mean when we say that a programming language has "modularity"?
 
10:11 AM
not to mention, that it can boost the spirit of the team, eg. in scrum, when the team evolves and make more points on every sprint -- that is a good thing!
 
@PeterVaro I guess it makes sense for well understood projects.
@MartianCactus that we don't know what we are talking about
 
@khajvah No, gaining better understanding is half the point
 
that's exactly what agile methods invented for: to make it easier to predict the problems, latencies, etc. which looks like unpredictable for a project
 
or even the whole point
this whole exercise of breaking stuff down and assigning points is just trying to get better understanding of how much work is involved and how long that might take
as you do more iterations you get better at it
 
exactly!
 
10:14 AM
through increased understanding of your own project, team, capabilities, etc.
 
@tzaman This is probably the big win when agile is done right
 
@tzaman by understanding the project I mean the problem itself. I.E. R&D projects.
I don't think you need short predefined sprints and iterations to understand the complexity of stuff
 
Even R&D has a plan; you can figure out what exactly you're trying to build or test or invent, what the approaches are, how long each one is likely to take, success/failure criteria, etc.
unless you're working on a math theorem where the plan is "sit on couch and cogitate for six hours"
 
With regards to R&D and plans I think this talk is worth watching: infoq.com/presentations/Searching-Without-Objectives
 
aaaand, let's mention the responsibility part as well: the team is protected against the claims, that they worked on things, which were unnecessary, as the PO was the one, who prioritized the stories, and because of the sprints, after each sprint that prioritization could've been changed; and well, the investors are protected also, as they can track everything the developers did, not only the work they've done, but also how they've done it
 
10:21 AM
@PeterVaro how can they track "how they have done it"?
 
they can track the activity of the team: the increases or decreases of their points per sprint
 
I don't believe in the idea of points
 
why not?
 
the actual work needed for completing the task might not be visible before you actually start
 
hey, hey, scrum is not using time as points
it is using complexity as points!
 
10:24 AM
complexity too
 
and that is exactly why it can be bloody accurate!
 
@PeterVaro I think that's put into words exactly a type of mistake with scrum I've seen in a few places
 
then it means, you have too big chunks as tasks, if you cannot assign them proper complexity points!
 
@PeterVaro yes, of course, we can come back to valuing the complexity problem
you start a task, you might need 2 weeks of refactoring of previously bad written code
 
@shuttle87 yeah, because people think: well, a more complex task means more time, therefore, there is a correlation between time and complexity, therefore we can use time instead :)
 
10:26 AM
PO sees that you spent 2 weeks on nothing
 
@khajvah "rafactoring badly written code" in general is a pretty bad task, if you ask me
 
still needs to be done
 
@PeterVaro Fine in principle, but I've just been asked why we don't have PySpark in production as the result of a ticket to research how to create EMR clusters.
 
or you can continue the hacky code and finish the task in 1 day.
 
@khajvah Then that task needs broken down.
 
10:28 AM
in first case, PO will see that you did nothing, in the second case, he will be happy but the code will suck
@Withnail can you reevaluate points after the start of the sprint?
 
@holdenweb imperfect implementation problems of a system is not the fault of the system itself ;) I mean, scrum is easy enough to understand, yet I always see it badly implemented.. yet it is still a good system!
 
If that task 'build functioning replication and read fallback for our databases' isn't straightforward because of rubbish code, then it's a choice of either a) rewrite from scratch or b) refactor significantly which is a precursor task to something else, imo
 
Similarly the Product Owner feels that including Spark in our system should be simple because "it's just a one-click install," ignoring many engineering factors that have to be taken into account when adding a new component to the Docker image build and making sure that it's available to the Jupyter kernels running behind our front-end.
 
@Withnail c) continue producing rubbish code to make PO happy
 
I'd say so, but it depends on your team and project, and also imo it's ok to carry over points - as long as doing that gets less frequent. You (generic you) should get better at estimating as you go through the project
 
10:30 AM
We have no problem with resizing an issue if it becomes apparent that our original estimates were low. The whole point is to try and have a process that can predict delivery times reasonablt accurately.
 
which I imagine will dominate
 
@MartianCactus It means that the language has features that are useful for modular programming.
 
In not-entirely-unrelated news, it's now taken me a full day to get a dump of our DB, get it to my machine (don't even ask), and then upload it to the new server. /fun
 
@holdenweb so the entire point of scrum is to give estimates?
 
The problems we tend to have start with under-specified tasks like "acquire and store tick size information for securities." Which seemed fine until we started to investigate and found that some exchanges provide tick sizes daily with the data feed, some have rules that depend on the current mid-price of the stock and need to be applied dynamically, and still others don't provide any information at all.
I'd say the point is to make the development process more predictable.
 
10:34 AM
I am not sure if it's a good thing
 
Which in turn makes estimates more accurate, so it is primarily a management tool, but one that works on a rational basis
There's the old saying: "We can build this fast, cheap or good: pick any two"
 
Haha, I've heard that before but forgotten it. I have a meeting today in which that'll come up.
 
@holdenweb my fear is that it will encourage bad code
because: 1. Developers don't need to have the big picture in their head. 2. Just finishing a task/story is good enough to earn points, so management will be happy with terrible code.
 
Scrum tries to turn a backlog into work specifications with a predictable completion date. We measure how many story points we achieve each sprint (in our case two weeks), so once the backlog is sized we can define product versions (planned releases) with "known" amounts of work (story points are a notional system, NOT to be equated with man-days and only sensibly treated as approximate) and estimate, at our current/predicted burn rate, what date we can deliver.
If the PO doesn't like the date then we invite him to reduce the scope (i.e say what he wants us to omit).
 
@khajvah Well, there needs to be some way for developers to communicate with product owners / management that don't understand coding. Just saying "we're working on it" is inadequate. And management want to be able to have some form of input in the process, and to be able to give tangible progress reports to interested parties.
 
10:41 AM
You are quite wrong about 1 - a classic mistake. 2. That depends on your definition of "done", which in our (best) case means implemented in production with full documentation. We have recruited a QA specialist, and "passes QA evaluations" will be added to the list when she (yes! she!) starts
 
coming back. need to close the browser. gdam ff
 
@PM2Ring isn't checking on individual developers kind of micromanagement?
@holdenweb does QA read code?
 
We have code reviews even at present, so it's not like any old code that passes the tests is allowed through into production
Qa will be expected, in due course, to be able to monitor coding standards, but I see that as quite a way down the line when we have a team rather than an individual
 
However, creating complex software is a creative process. Sure, some of it is fairly mechanical, but there's a creative artistic aspect that can't be produced on demand. So treating programmers like assembly-line workers is generally not a good strategy.
 
@PM2Ring that's what I meant in the beginning
 
10:46 AM
cabbage
 
They are fully involved in the design process, and we resist any attempts to equate story-points and person-hours (which other managers continually do). The estimates are there as a guide, the theory being that if tasks are split down into small enough components then sizing errors will balance out
I'm fighting to ensure that the developers AREN'T seen as replaceable components. Losing that battle would probably trigger my exit.
cbg, Andras
 
OTOH, coding isn't quite on the same level as artistic pursuits like song-writing, and there's often lots of little "mechanical" things that you can work on while you're waiting for inspiration regarding the more creative stuff. And even with the creative stuff, you do get better with practice. You learn how to get into that creative state, and to recognize the little flashes of inspiration when they occur.
 
BTW for those who've never come across the fast/good/cheap meme before this graphic explains it: sixside.com/fast_good_cheap.asp
 
@PM2Ring I am not sure how those flashes of inspiration will fit in scrum environment. My experience tells that managers see it as waste of time.
 
user559633
Steve Yegge has a good article on Agile. I agree with this and would add that I find it infuriating to pretend that we don't live in a world of hard deadlines and that talking about tasks in terms of tshirt sizes or animals is fine and good, but parents pretending that the spoon full of vegetables is a choo-choo train doesn't make the broccoli any less unpleasant to a child.
 
10:50 AM
which is why I don't like the idea of letting them monitor developer "performance"
managers shouldn't/can't rate programmers
 
On a related note, before Lou Reed became famous he worked in a song-writing "sweatshop" where they had a bunch of hack songwriters writing cheesy rip-offs of the current hits and releasing them on el cheapo records. Lou said he wrote a lot of rubbish during that time, but when you're writing a hundred or more songs per week you can't help getting better. :)
 
user559633
@khajvah Depends on the manager. Measured performance and committing to deliver components that work is what separates hobby-coding from work-coding.
 
The ultimate measure of developer performance is product delivered. And your "them and us" approach implies that your managers aren't primarily technical types. I can assure you that isn't that case with me ...
Neither do I try to treat my staff as replaceable units
 
@holdenweb my current manager is technical type and even does programming but still right delivery time is more important to him than the quality of the code
my point is, managers have to trust engineers and monitoring specific tasks that a programmer is doing is micromanagement and should be avoided.
 
user559633
@khajvah Customers/partners don't care about the elegance of your objects. They care about deadlines and commitments
 
10:54 AM
You have to strike a balance, I feel. If code works I might point out the inadequacies but still let it through, as long as a) it doesn't introduce horrible inefficiencies, b) its sufficiently readable, and c) I am convinced that the mistake won't be repeated.
 
@tristan they will still blame you when fixing bugs will take forever because of terrible code.
 
user559633
@khajvah Depends on the manager and workplace culture. If managers, coders, or assorted miscellaneous bean counters are overcommitting, that's a problem, but ultimately "business makes money" will/should always win over "baroque software written by code artisans"
 
On the topic of forcing creative people to create... Allegedly, the great jazz pianist Fats Waller was once forced to write a song at gunpoint! Thankfully, few IT managers use this technique. :)
 

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