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7:00 PM
@TravisJ No, it's always the same.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum eh its a reaction because look what happened just a week ago
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I did - I asked politely (twice).
 
@ssube - No, it should always be the same :)
 
@TravisJ Session (and id) is unrelated to node.
 
like I said I have no personal issues with you at all
 
7:00 PM
But it isn't always
 
@SomeKittens where?
 
I think your cool/respect you/ect.
 
@TravisJ I'm talking about how we have it implemented at work, specifically.
 
I just found this decision to be very drastic
 
@Loktar I was following suggestions from SE staff, we're trying to improve the culture here. It's not as nice here as it was a year ago.
 
7:00 PM
I see, and you manage each node yourself also?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Once here, once Miauo
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum in fairness SE as a whole isn't
 
Or however one spells it.
 
@SomeKittens I did not see that, I apologize.
 
7:01 PM
 
@Loktar SE is still a cool place, but discussion was problematic here.
 
@TravisJ No, ops just says they want N app nodes in the environment, and puppet/openstack get together and make it happen.
 
user1596138
LOL oh god
 
user1596138
7:01 PM
@Loktar I saw this coming hahahahahaha
 
@ssube - I meant in house when I said "yourself"
 
Those nodes all write their sessions and saved data out to the memcache for the env (or app, not sure exactly how many we have)
 
Here we go
 
@TravisJ Oh, yeah.
 
7:01 PM
... back to democracy?
 
my screen refreshed \o/
 
oh come on though
 
Okay cool, then yeah it should always be the same
 
all those people deserve to be an owner
 
@Loktar That's the problem SE thinks we have by the way.
 
7:02 PM
and contribute
 
user1596138
I guess I kinda got removed as RO before the controversy even started so
 
People deserving to be an owner.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum And as far as the "I'm not in charge" thing goes - rlemon/Sterling were all for it but wouldn't do anything without your stamp of approval.
 
@TravisJ It's also the same app (same war from the same rpm) with the same conf deployed to all the nodes.
 
SE's worried about our culture?
 
7:02 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum People become owners because they've earned our trust, not any 'deserving'
 
@SomeKittens @Loktar @rlemon @SomeGuy come with me
 
@SomeKittens exactly what I mean
 
@SomeKittens for the record, I have a strict "do not go against other owners and give the benefit of the doubt" policy
 
@SomeKittens like I said, I didn't see it and I apologize. You could've pinged me, or sent me an email, or an IM. We've talked in emails before.
 
 
7:03 PM
I don't like being thrown under the buss for things I have not done. that is what made me leave SO for a week.
 
Removing ownership says "I don't trust you anymore"
3
 
When there are too many people that can do stuff, less people do stuff.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think thats the issue though
why were you put in charge of this?
 
@rlemon for the record, I totally respect that policy.
 
Why would we have to ping you
 
7:03 PM
@ssube - Sometimes when you are on a server farm that has hundreds of instances balanced over a lot of nodes session swapping can occur which is what I thought at first. Your situation is clearly more managed than that.
 
@SomeKittens then I have to ask, why were you singling me out just then?
 
I liked the nine archons model
 
@SomeKittens I'd rather have your trust than your help.
 
There should be as many owners as possible
 
it really bothers me. I didn't expect it from you
 
7:03 PM
to stop from mad power grabs
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Huh? The number of room owners never stopped me from moving stuff, etc.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I used to trust you.
 
@Loktar Well, if we held a referendum, I think most people would say "Not everyone needs to be an owner, but I do"
 
I'm not so sure anymore.
 
@TravisJ Relatively speaking. It's still pretty chaotic, but failover-wise, pretty good.
 
@SimonSarris To be owner of a chatroom?
 
7:04 PM
@SomeKittens we've had issues here. You know that.
 
@KendallFrey heh most likely
 
user1596138
@rlemon I understand what he meant I think. He is good at keeping focus on the bigger picture ;P
 
however there should be a decision made by everyone, via a voting system or something
 
@ssube - But you are still having concurrency issues with that setup?
 
TBH, I don't feel a real need to be owner, it's just nice to be appreciated.
3
 
7:04 PM
The potential latency isn't much of a practical problem, since if you're hitting a different node every request, something is very wrong on our side.
 
@rlemon well, you and sterling.
 
Don't ever be dictator of a country, okay thanks.
 
not just one or two people who havent been here as long as others, or arent nearly as active
 
@Neil the more chatroom owners, the better. We are custodians, not rulers
 
^
 
7:05 PM
@TravisJ Don't think so. We've got 1xApache -> NxTomcat -> 1xMemcache
 
You sure act as rulers ?
 
@SomeKittens seriously? RO is the big deal? we've worked on stuff together, we talked about meaningful stuff and the ability to bin messages bothers you that much? Like I said - I've added Loktar back and he added you before I could. I don't feel that strongly about it - I do want to sovle this and work things out.
 
exactly I realized when I coudlnt get rid of a gamergate message
 
I feel the same way as @KendallFrey
 
Apache proxies you to an app server, that does stuff, based on your session.
 
7:05 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Swastikas, #GG, zigi, # of RO is irrelevant.
 
I was trying to clean up the chat
 
@SimonSarris I believe they already are custodians, just less of them
 
@SimonSarris dude, you know I have mad respect for you but you've been here like 5 times the last year.
 
App goes down, apache sends you somewhere else, that doesn't have the session and hits memcache.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I still respect you and the work you do.
 
7:05 PM
@SomeKittens #GG is something we should've have had.
 
It's the attitude you should watch for, not the number of owners
 
@SomeKittens but why? because we just continued to go about our business? why not talk to the people who enacted the 'decision' to do this? I'm not going against Benji, or you. I'm just saying, why did it even come to this. why wasn't it discussed more?
 
user1596138
Alright lets get to work on the RO election software...
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum je sais, but what does that have to do with anything, except my terrible out of the loop ism
 
@Neil That's the thing, some people think that it's the number of 'responsible parties' that causes inaction.
 
user1596138
7:06 PM
My vote goes to Kim Jong, he would run this room the right way.
 
sry copy didnt see you there.
 
I made it public that I wasn't against trying anything. That is the only stamp of approval I have given on this subject.
 
s/room owner/trusted user/ <- and that's why we're upset. In my mind, this is a valid replace.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Frankly, I think this is a silly assumption as well
 
7:06 PM
The bystander effect, or bystander apathy, is a social psychological phenomenon that refers to cases in which individuals do not offer any means of help to a victim when other people are present. The probability of help is inversely related to the number of bystanders. In other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help. Several variables help to explain why the bystander effect occurs. These variables include: ambiguity, cohesiveness and diffusion of responsibility. == Social psychology research == The bystander effect was first demonstrated...
 
If you are a good room owner, you don't often even do anything
 
@Neil wisdom
 
The whole point is to fix problems, not find reasons to act
 
@Neil frankly, you were removed before and for orthogonal reasons and while I like you and I'd have a beer with you I'd certainly take @Loktar or @SomeKittens's advice and weigh before yours.
 
I was such a good room owner that I was never even here
 
7:07 PM
Having the italics gives some oomph when you say "Don't do/say that"
 
Was somebody murdered in this room while eveyone stood and watched?
 
@SimonSarris lol
 
Seriously, I wouldn't have done this if I knew it'd involve that much drama.
 
think of all the moderation I did not do, think of all the anger I did not raise
It was a lot of not-raised anger. That's impressive.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum eh I went a bit crazy but I would have left, to me it was a giant slap in the face
 
7:08 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum What did you expect?
 
however I didnt see it coming since I missed the chats on it apparently
in the external to SO chat room.
 
the amount of drama in this room is exceeding tedious-levels
 
@Loktar You want to prove the experiment wrong? Come here more :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum have you not seen the rise and fall of 1000000 forums and chatrooms in your time?
 
what do you mean? Im here all the time?
 
7:09 PM
@SimonSarris now think of all the non-moderation you'll be able to do as a non-moderator ;-)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Could you give me an example of a situation in which we had too many room owners and some one should have done something but didn't?
 
@SimonSarris I own one! :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Are you confusing Neil and Neal or did I miss something?
 
@everybody But I'm curious, where did all this moderation crap come from? What happened?
 
This is how the world ends, not with a bang but with caving mods
 
7:09 PM
It's drama but it's also important discussions and I'm glad we're having it, it would've been better last week but now is OK.
 
I'm afraid I don't think I really understand your concern
 
@JanDvorak I do it faithfully
 
@Neil The easiest one is last week with the GG thing but there are tons of others.
 
user1596138
I never got upset about the SE moderation thing lol
 
@JanDvorak The point of being a mod is that when someone gets upset and says "WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING TO PROTECT THE XYZs" you whisper in their ear, no
 
7:10 PM
@SomeKittens you probably did, catch up with rlemon or florian or something.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Do you feel like you would have done something had there been fewer owners?
 
So basically the point was that users should distance themselves from this room.
 
user1596138
I still think @FlorianMargaine is a mean man tho
 
The point of being a mod is to stand up and take arrows. To be a bullet sponge for mad users. And then you sit there and do nothing because that is 99.999% the right thing to do. And then problem goes away and no rules need to change.
 
This is the first conversation I've heard about it. Just trying to understand where this "don't call groups that aren't represented here" names thing. Can I make fun of the KKK?
 
7:10 PM
The best mods listen and change nothing. I guarantee this.
 
Perhaps Tim's first message was an accurate one.
 
@SimonSarris Very true - didn't think about this.
 
@Neil Honestly? I'd like to think I would've done something anyway, like I did last time Jhawins was out of line - and that worked out for the better. I don't know if the number matters but some people think it does and I was willing to try what they were saying out..
 
It is a rookie mistake to think you should change something because of angry people
Communities get destroyed over that all the time
 
@Neil Well, the effect is a subconscious one, so I don't think that questions is really valid
 
7:11 PM
@SimonSarris until people start spamming swastikas, you mean?
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum What are you referring to?
 
@SimonSarris I feel like this is has been falling apart for a while now
 
@Jhawins fb thing.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Also, not sure what you're refering to. I've never been banned, and I have only been removed once from the list of owners, and that was only because rlemon asked if I would because there were "too many"
 
look at all of the ROs/friends arguing
 
user1596138
7:11 PM
hahahaha
 
@rlemon well we werent all RO's a minute ago
and hence where the argument came from.
 
user1596138
That was hilarious. I was drunk I made a mistake :)
 
@JanDvorak You don't remove owners, you chide an invidiaul
 
@rlemon You're making me cry
 
@rlemon Probably why half of us are in another room
 
7:12 PM
The RO purge wasn't my idea
 
The solution to bad individuals is dealing with individuals. If you change a paradigm based on an individual, you are not really a mod, what you are doing is giving power to that squeaky squaker. And that's bad.
4
 
@SomeGuy sure doesn't make me wanna hang out in here if everyone is just constantly arguing
 
@rlemon exactly.
 
I thought everybody knew this stuff by now
 
user1596138
@rlemon yeah well...
 
7:12 PM
Okay but what inspired this call to action that happened? Whatever it was?
 
@SimonSarris claps
 
user1596138
!!afk smoke
 
I feel like this room has been deteriorating in discussion level for about half a year.
 
user1596138
Eh I still am over this room's politics
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Why?
 
7:13 PM
Any JS wizards up for a challenge?
 
@xDaevax Maybe.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum in fairness you havent been quite as active either
 
I don't think this really improved anything, to be perfectly honest
 
user1596138
I spent 2 years here too.
 
It's not just me, @Zirak has felt it too. So did @rlemon
 
7:13 PM
you pop in from time to time it seems
 
@xDaevax I have a robe and a wizard hat
 
@xDaevax ?
 
@xDaevax I'm only a simple JS squire. but I can try.
 
Sure, quality may have gone down
 
You guys are always arguing and being condescending, that's why you guys are the only ones here !
 
7:13 PM
I should have had my Oskar-inspired maze done by now, then I'd have some JS to talk about
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Tell me what you felt
 
actually, it's a nightgown
 
Ok, so maybe I trumped that up a bit. It is at least challenging to me.
 
"The lashings will continue until morale improves."
 
@Loktar I think we're mostly active on different hours, I try to be active but I'm not as active when discussion sin't as interesting
 
7:13 PM
6
Q: Custom JavaScript validation using the factory / module patterns

xDaevaxI am in the process of diving a bit deeper into JavaScript development and am looking at some common language patterns (module, and factory in particular). In this code, my aim is to create a re-usable framework for creating custom field validators in JS that can be easily extended. In addition...

 
@adeneo :(
@BenjaminGruenbaum fair point
 
@adeneo Hahahaha
 
@SimonSarris lower level discussion, less making things, less building. Heck, even the level of English here is lower.
 
@Loktar - It's true, this is not a very inviting place for newcomers.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Changing room owners solves which one of these?
 
7:14 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum How is that relevant, though?
 
We have newcomers, it's one of the biggest rooms.
 
(serious question)
 
(I appreciate that you're asking these questions, really)
 
@xDaevax I wrote something vaguely like that once. It all depends on how you want to pick the validator.
 
@SimonSarris the theory is that it'll make people more active, it'll open a chance for etiquette changes.
 
7:15 PM
from how I understood it, the room owner change was sparked heavily by SE staff? @BenjaminGruenbaum ??
 
On the plus side, I discovered HTML/ CSS / WebDesign chatroom during this time
 
I've been here on/off since the room was pretty new I think with occasional long breaks. And I gotta tell you guys, every idea I've heard about this room once having been a lot nicer is horse-hockey. If anything the abuse in regards to people asking stupid questions or offering less than perfect answers has dropped quite a bit.
 
Roughly, you just use a plugin structure where each module registers itself as a provider for a particular type.
 
Heck, it got you here and it got you talking, that hasn't happened in a while.
 
Particularly, I am abusing the prototype because I don't understand it well.
 
7:15 PM
@rlemon yes, but not just.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - Sure, but they usually leave after arguing with you or rlemon
 
I needed a common base to filter out invalid types, but I can't have shared methods there (coming from .NET background).
 
Supposedly. I don't really see any record of it though.
 
@adeneo show me the last time I scared away a newbie
 
Where was the moderator suggestion to wipe all room owners?
 
7:16 PM
@adeneo some people stay, I leave a lot of chat rooms too after a time or two.
 
because I'm pretty sure I help a lot more vamps than I should.
 
@rlemon definitely.
 
It wasn't a 'suggestion to wipe all room owners'.
 
@xDaevax The simplest impl is along the lines of validators[typeof X].call(this, x)
 
I always see vamps thanking you and then asking for further help.
 
7:16 PM
But typeof isn't the most reliable
 
So that part was just Florian's idea then
 
and I help them, unless their rude about it.
 
^ not being sarcastic btw
 
user1596138
@SimonSarris Exactly. Problem is the quality of interactive users, and the probability of one becoming an interactive user in this environment is lower the better the user's quality it seems
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think the concept that etiquette is handed down from above is a big mistake. Etiquette is learned only by example. Set a good example, and that means removing your temptation of being drastic and thinking drastically
 
7:17 PM
Who basically took "clean" to mean "wipe out"
 
user1596138
We get lots of new users that don't ever say a word.
 
@SimonSarris right, I agree that etiquette change is a long community process, but it wasn't happening and I'm willing to try things out.
 
well, I'm taking off. seems like I'm a new target of sorts (don't know why).
later room. i'll be back when this crapshow is over
 
@rlemon - Don't go :(
 
Fact of matter is: It got you all here and it got you all talking about the JS room and how to improve things.
 
7:17 PM
@rlemon come to my new room
 
@ssube Care to add an answer for me to upvote?
 
@rlemon stay.
 

Web Dev Club

Be nice. Any time someone mentions the JavaScript room they mu...
 
If you have time
 
you're already an owner!
:D
I will be there for now.
 
7:18 PM
@rlemon please stay
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Not really. It just got the people who already were here talking about it while being more agitated about it
 
@rlemon I found it odd that you were kept as an owner yet were warned by SE admins
 
user1596138
Honestly I think people should be kicked from the room due to lack of competence about a dozen times during the time I am here. It's simply a waste of time and stresses everyone out when someone comes here and asked questions that have copy/paste answers from searching the exact text on google.
 
I think you should be an owner for sure however if their goal was to mitigate issues like that (idk how it would) then it made no sense.
 
Let's talk about improving things.
 
7:18 PM
@xDaevax Not quite yet. Need to think it through some more.
 
bonne chance all
 
user1596138
I wish we had an enforced intelligence level.
 
So, spaces or tabs, everyone?
 
@mintsauce Heh
 
@Loktar SE CMs also found it odd :P too bad for them.
 
user1596138
7:19 PM
The whole reason I got removed as RO is because I told our longest term troll so far that he was bad.
 
@Jhawins I prefer just telling them to search
 
@ssube Well, I appreciate the effort and any direction you can provide. I am really enjoying the coding style in JS but I am trying to unlearn some OO stuff to utilize JS the way it was meant to be.
 
@Jhawins Well, you were being a dick about it
 
@Jhawins I don't think that was the only reason you were removed, I didn't remove you.
 
@mintsauce cv not a real question. You should be asking 2 or 4?
 
7:19 PM
I don't know if it was justified or not
 
user1596138
I apologized :P
 
@xDaevax OO and JS aren't exclusive. The larger your app gets, the more OO your JS gets.
 
:-)
 
user1596138
But yeah I only was pointing out his vamp answers and such
 
You just have to get used to throwing functionaly stuff in alongside.
If you're familiar with contracts, those are helpful. You don't need to care that X is a Y, only that it has a Z and W.
 
7:20 PM
@ssube that's not always true.
 
user1596138
Plus you're all ignoring the elephant in the room.
 
If V has a Z and W too, then V may as well be a Y, for all you care (generally).
 
True, I learned from one of the other reviews that overloading isn't supported, but the code itself didn't balk about having both methods, it just silently ignored the method with fewer arguments. Those are the things I'm trying to cement in my brain.
 
@Jhawins Are you talking about me? ;)
 
it's like duckface typing, but a useful subset.
 
user1596138
7:21 PM
Things started really going downhill when we got reported to the UN for discrimination
 
@xDaevax you "always" have functions overloaded.
 
@Jhawins lol wat?
 
@xDaevax It silently ignored the first one(s) and used the last declaration.
 
user1596138
I used chat less during the following weeks of zigi than I did this last week
 
@Jhawins ?
 
7:21 PM
Just reassignment.
 
user1596138
We were forced to make a separate private regular room
 
@xDaevax Haven't delved deeply into your code yet, but don't look too hard for JS community consensus on the one true way to do things right. IMO, the three most important things in any language in order of priority are: Can you read it? Can you change it? Can you reuse the bits you might obviously want to reuse at some point?
 
@Jhawins ?
 
@Jhawins eh I mean idk what that rooms truly for
its mostly inactive
 
@Jhawins Mostly only because people were unable to ignore him
 
user1596138
7:22 PM
@JanDvorak ECMAScript to avoid zigi
 
I see, so the number of parameters is irrelevant, only the order of declaration matters, would it be fair to say they are in first in last out order (FILO)?
 
user1596138
@Loktar it was 100% for avoiding zigi.
 
oh for that reason forgot
I just ignored him
 
Somebody please bookmark your room owner massacre when you are done. I like to read it back :)
 
It would have been incredibly simple to deal with it if everyone just hit "ignore"
 
7:23 PM
^
 
@xDaevax It's not any kind of stack, only one can be attached to the name.
 
user1596138
@SomeGuy Yeah, he made it very difficult and ROs cannot be ignoring people
 
In var x = 1; x = 2; x = 3;, x is just 3, not [3, 2, 1]. JS does the same for most things.
 
@ErikReppen I'm not too keen on consensus, just SOLID coding practices.
 
If you ignore people and they spam the room and they make life harder for other individuals you aren't doing a very good job.
 
7:24 PM
Sure we can. Just throwing things in trash is not "punishment"
 
How long do kick-mutes last?
 
@Jhawins I've ignored lots of people
@TomW 1m, then 5, then 30
 
If someone says something offensive, it should be flagged
 
would seem to be the right way to deal with those people
 
user1596138
psh idc I'm done with this anyway all I do is come here and point out random shit
 
7:24 PM
 
I see
 

Room 11 massacre

May 13 at 17:53, 3 minutes total – 45 messages, 11 users, 18 stars

Bookmarked Jun 29 at 19:07 by PeeHaa

2
 
@Loktar how would you feel about a monthly/bi-monthly discussion about the room status? The Python room has had those for a while.
 
@ssube Haskell doesn't even let you do that
 
@PeeHaa Oh no - have we finally found something PHP does better than JS?
 
7:24 PM
@TomW - 1 minute, 5 minute, 30, each one causes a mod flag too
 
In fact, I've temp-ignored room owners before
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum what kinds of things are discussed?
 
user1596138
This room has been a source of de-motivation for me for the last few months, it used to be what inspired me to learn 80% of what I know today as a developer
 
@TravisJ The first two don't, do they?
 
@SomeKittens :P
 
7:24 PM
Does a permanent ban option exist?
 
@TravisJ not each on
 
@KendallFrey - each one does
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sort of a "state of the room"?
 
@TomW Not for room owners
 
7:25 PM
@TravisJ no
 
@JanDvorak - They are not meant to be done often at all, they all raise mod flags.
 
For everyone interested.
 
@TravisJ no
 
The mods are also interested in who is kicking.
@JanDvorak - yes
 
@TravisJ only something like 3rd per kickee, 3rd per kicker, 5th per room
 
7:26 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum If it was something like our sprint retrospective meetings at work, I think that could be cool
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sounds good
 
@Jhawins I think we should strive to do better. That's why I want to have these monthly coding challenges.
 
should I say no without any content repeatedly?
 
sure Im not against it at all.
 
It is really a poor way to communicate.
 
7:26 PM
@TravisJ Do you want me to look it up for you?
 
Then let's do that.
 
I can look it up, but if you did not know for sure, why just say "no" and then nothing at all?
 
@TravisJ I don't know for sure either, but 90% sure
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum you guys go right ahead. Everyone in the "movement" should be addressed in those. It's not like I'm a part of things anymore than @Jeff82 (whoever you are)
 
usually the majority is right
 
7:27 PM
@TravisJ I do know for sure
 
@KendallFrey Collective intelligence FTW?
 
user1596138
I feel like I've been written off in a way for months lol I can take a hint this was just a good final shove
 
@Jhawins Come on, man. You haven't been written off
People just point out behavior they think is not appropriate
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum When is it?
 
7:29 PM
That's meant to be an incentive to improve, not to leave
 
Shouldn't we add all the ROs back? @BenjaminGruenbaum would you disagree?
 
To be fair, the user I like here the most and is the most constructive is probably Amaan :P
 
This could create resentment and we're all friends.
 
@BadgerGirl Go ahead and add anyone you'd like. I was under the impression you were willing to try this thing out, I talked to copy about it and he said he was ok with trying it (right after it happened) - you didn't ping me or message me. If we're not going to try it - go ahead. Just don't be too light on the finger.
 
@TravisJ here are the flag criteria: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/229905/…
 
7:31 PM
If I ask 'wtf happened here' am I going to get flamed?
 
Have you guys moved on to the daily popularity contest ?
 
@BadgerGirl My only request is to not add people who have been inactive for a while or haven't done any cleaning at all or moderation for a while.
 
@TomW You're just going to have to read through the transcript
 
@adeneo don't you have a jQuery question to answer or something :P?
 
@JanDvorak - I remember the original post, but I was under the impression they changed the first two to include flags. I am reading through the recent meta on it.
 
7:31 PM
So is it about cleaning? I thought the rule was every regular should be room owner.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - Probably, but this was more fun
 
@BadgerGirl Every regular we trust
 
@TravisJ never heard of this change. Link?
 
Yeah, that.
 
@xDaevax There's plenty of criticism of at least aspects SOLID. And I'm not sure it's the best paradigm to follow for JS even if it works well in class-as-fundamental-unit languages. The way I see OOP is as a tool to help you avoid what you tend to get in C, which is very long chains of function calls all making changes to shared global objects turning into a massive spaghetti monster that's very difficult to read or modify without incurring wack-a-mole debug.
 
7:32 PM
Let me peek into the recent changes post
 
@JanDvorak - I am reading, perhaps I was mistaken though. If I find it I will let you know.
 
Another thing that tripped me up in JS: scope is a bit different I've learned.  I had a variable name conflict over a closure that I didn't realize was "closing".

function RecursiveLoopInvoker(obj) {
    var buildItems = [];
    for(var i = 0; i<obj.Children.length; i++) {
        buildItems.push(BuildItem(obj.Children[i]));
    }
}

function BuildItem(instance) {
    var newItems = [];
    if(instance.HasChildren) {
        for(var i =0; i< instance.Children.length; i++) {
            instance.NewChild = BuildItem(instance.Children[i]);
 
@BadgerGirl I think we do need to be less open about that since room owners are allowed to kick users now
 
I was surprised that the i variable was re-used.
 
@SomeGuy I doubt you actually have problem with users being kicked?
 
7:33 PM
@PeeHaa I hate kicking :P
 
How should we do it then?
 
@KendallFrey next weekend, probably.
 
@SomeGuy hence the trust thing :P
 
@xDaevax what do you mean? I can't see any asynchronous usage in your example.
 
Ive never kicked a user
 
7:34 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think I have used it only twice
 
and most owners havent tmk
 
@xDaevax Not sure I'm seeing a closure problem there.
 
@xDaevax Scope is a stack by name.
 
@PeeHaa Not a problem, really, but I don't want someone who'd be impulsive to have that feature available to them
Being kicked is kind of like being forced to just shut up
 
@xDaevax - var scopes the variable to the current executing context. There are no "conflicting names" in JavaScript though, one just overwrites the other, or takes precedence over the other.
 
7:34 PM
Which I bet doesn't feel pleasant
It'll just piss the user off even more
 
@SomeGuy Don't try to prevent a problem that does not exist
 
So if it isn't justified, why let it happen?
 
I've been playing with a scriping lang using the same scoping semantics, and it ends up roughly being a singly-linked list of Scope { Scope parent; Map<String, any> vars; }
 
Right, that was what confused me. I expected each recursive invocation of the BuildItem method to instance it's own 'i'.
 
@PeeHaa Not sure what you mean.
 
@xDaevax - how would the i variable be reused, it's local to each function, can you explain the issue a little better ?
 
1 min ago, by Some Guy
@PeeHaa Not a problem, really, but I don't want someone who'd be impulsive to have that feature available to them
 
Plus, only functions have scopes.
 
@adeneo I will prepare a fiddle to reproduce the behavior.
 
7:36 PM
@ssube that's not true.
Even if we ignore let.
 
@PeeHaa I don't have a problem with the kick feature existing. I want to make sure it isn't available to every "regular" regardless of whether they are fair to others or not
 
@SomeGuy But it does not get abused
Hence there is no problem
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's not, is it.
 
Did I ask Badger to remove someone?
 
7:37 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum your meta question got closed, maybe CodeGolf would be more appropriate
 
@JanDvorak - There aren't many questions tagged kick-mute, and I read all of them. It wasn't in there but I really am convinced they talked about having each kick cause a flag. Maybe I will ask in Tavern.
 
I only asked her to make sure she didn't every regular without keeping in mind the power she'd be handing to them
 
What else opens a scope?
 
@ssube wanna bet that I can do block scope in JS and it even works on IE6?
 
It's mostly just functions.
 
7:38 PM
with, and catch.
 
user1596138
@KendallFrey Why. Why the fuck do I deserve that smutt?
 
Ah.
 
 try { throw 5; }catch(x){ /* x is a block scoped local variable equal 5 */
 
I knew loops and such didn't, forgot about with entirely.
and never do anything interesting in catch.
Are functions, with, and catch the only things that have a scope?
 
I find 'never do anything interesting in catch terrifying :D
@ssube eval has different scoping issues, function arguments have their own scope rules in non-strict mode. In the browser there is also other things (but that's the DOM), in node there's the vm module.
 
7:40 PM
@xDaevax What is your actual resulting buildItems?
 
@ssube ES6 itroduces the let keyword
 
Of course let's not forget that ES6 actually has let ^
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum "interesting" meanings "requiring the declaration of new variables/objects"
I usually just this.render(this.errorTemplate(e)); return;
or, yknow, equivalent
 
I've never missed block scope. Not once that I can think of.
It must come up for some problems but I can't think of any obvious ones.
 
@ErikReppen have you never done (function(i){...})(i)?
 
7:42 PM
@ssube well, e is block scoped.
 
It's kinda nice for loops, so you don't leak data.
 
@Jhawins lol he lives in IN
Also, how the fuck did you find that?
 
@ErikReppen it's one of those things JS and Python both don't do but when JS doesn't do it it's suddenly terrible and when Python doen't do it it's elegant.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - that's an exception var, it doesn't really have scope
 
There are tens of these.
@adeneo yes it does, it's scoped to the catch block.
 
7:43 PM
@JanDvorak Oh, yes. Yes I have. There it is. Durr.
 
The spec clearly says so.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - Well, sure, but you can't define a local var inside the catch or try, so it doesn't really have a different scope, the argument is an exception var
try {
    crap
}catch(e) {
    var s = 'test';
}

console.log(s); // gives test
 
!!>try{x=5}catch(_){var x}; console.log(x)
 
user1596138
@KendallFrey crawling the transcript of course
 
@JanDvorak "SyntaxError: missing identifier in catch"
@JanDvorak "undefined" Logged: 5
 
7:45 PM
If it truly had scope, it would be
(function() {
    var s = 'test';
})()

console.log(s); // undefined
 
@adeneo yes, but you can nest, that's what traceur actually does for let shimming.
 
I've wasted a lot of hours on empty catches. I'd wager that 99% of the time if there's nothing in your catch you shouldn't be using Try/Catch in the first place.
6
 
@ErikReppen amen.
 
I have a policy that a catch block should contain at minimum a comment
 
!!> var x = 3; try { throw 'foo' } catch(x){ x = 2; console.log('catch: ' + x); } console.log(x);
 
7:47 PM
@mintsauce "undefined" Logged: "catch: 2",3
 
@KendallFrey eeeewwwwwwwww
 
Looks like different scope to me.
 
@PeeHaa What else should I do?
 
@mintsauce only for x
 
Yeah.
 
7:47 PM
Either handle it or well do nothing
as in don't catch
 
Sometimes I'm forced to handle exceptions that I can't fix
 
@PeeHaa what if I want to discard specific exceptions?
 
God your language is truly horrific :P
 
@ErikReppen imho the only value to an empty catch is when you know a library has bug that causes it to throw for no valid reason
 
I've never used try/catch, actually
 
7:49 PM
and that's only when it's intermittent
 
brb getting beers and cigarettes
 
@mintsauce - not really, you're changing the exception variable, same as changing a local function argument, it doesn't give the block it's own scope
 
@KendallFrey example?
 
But I do agree that the exception argument is scoped to the block
 
@Tom W. I could see that. Under ideal circumstances I'd give said library the boot barring a receptive pull request from its authors but nothing is ever ideal.
 
7:50 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum The first one that springs to mind is in C#, in AppDomain.FirstChanceException
 
Now, JavaScript
 
my unit tests are giving me the infernal error TypeError: 'undefined' is not an object (evaluating 'a.constructor')
 
My lead told me to catch any potential exceptions to prevent a double fault
 
has anyone seen this before?
 
7:51 PM
You should learn jQuery, it's great and does all things. — Benjamin Gruenbaum 6 secs ago
@SomeKittens what unit test is giving you that?
 
closed
@SomeKittens what's a?
 
@adeneo Fine, catch creates a new Lexical Environment then.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum All of them. And the location in the stacktrace changes
@JanDvorak Your guess is as good as mine.
 
@KendallFrey In web UI it's typically better for a problem to become very obvious very quickly. If I saw try/catch a lot in a JS codebase, without catch throwing its own more human legible error, I'd question the value of it.
 
@SomeKittens even if you write an empty unit test this happens? If it does it means one of your dependent libraries is borked.
 
7:54 PM
-1
Q: Allow high rep users to edit other SE answers/questions

Zach SaucierAt the moment, users with 200+ reputation on one SE site get an automatic 100 rep bonus on any SE sites where they have a profile. This allows all the basic privileges like flagging, voting up, and participating in Meta. On a particular SE site, a user has to obtain 2,000 reputation before they ...

 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yep, but depending on which libraries I require, the stack trace points to different non-library code.
Including a package that doesn't exist.
 
High rep users should definitively get more perks and swag
 
Is there a way to be notified when a promise completes either successfully or unsuccessfully, regardless of other error handlers on the promise?
 
@rlemon That 4-bit maze inspired me to make an N-dimensional maze (currently hardcoded at 3): jsfiddle.net/kendfrey/wc1Los0d
 
@ZachSaucier Sorry, I disagree.
 
7:56 PM
perfectly fine :P
 
@SomeKittens does an empty test pass?
 
@KendallFrey where are the pretty graphics?!
 
in the fourth dimension
i.e. the future
 
@ZachSaucier You're saucier than most Zachs.
 
too true
 
7:57 PM
it's also supposed to have a minimalistic exterior
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum what do you think of the other proposal?
1
A: Allow high rep users to edit other SE answers/questions

ScottI could see maybe 500 or 1k rep rather than the standard 100 rep. But I don't know I'd go so far as to recommend 2k rep to a new user. I'll be the first to stand up and tout my ignorance in a new community, so it seems unfair and haphazard to grant even myself 2k rep to start. Just because I k...

 
@RoelvanUden Try/Catch? But mostly a promise is something waiting for other things to happen. What about a case where something might not succeed and try again? Each promise event would need to know whether it would try again.
 
@ZachSaucier different sites have very different etiquette
 
I've wanted to make a game with no visual feedback whatsoever.
Entirely sound-based
 
@RoelvanUden .finally on bluebird
 
7:58 PM
@RoelvanUden what promise library?
 
@KendallFrey sounds difficult
 
@ZachSaucier to make, or play?
 
You can use .finally or shim it, they'll add it in ES7, they don't have it in ES6 because they didn't have time.
 
play
 
@ErikReppen From my observations, if I have a promise.catch(...).catch(...), the second catch does not get a notification. If the first one swallows the error, the second (responsible for tracking) does not know about it at all.
@BenjaminGruenbaum ES6 promise.
 
7:59 PM
@RoelvanUden just like in synchronous code. It'd be really strange if it was impossible to recover.
 
Have you seen the game that is made of white noise?
 

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