last day (27 days later) » 

9:00 PM
@Neil How often does it genuinely happen that progamers get supply blocked?
 
right
 
even if it ironically turned into a barrier to block your defenses
 
pretty much never
nobody attacks the supply unless they have a specific reason or timing for it- in general, it's got too many HP and too easily replaced to justify spending attacking unit time on it
 
@DeadMG Actually, having no max limit on unit is a very core design kind of thing.
 
the other economic necessities are more expensive to replace and die a lot faster
 
9:01 PM
@DeadMG Could happen, that's the point. If you attacked an enemy that did nothing but build up defense the entire time and you lose the battle
 
@Neil No, the point is that it never really happens.
 
While you're building up another army, he's increased his defense another 50%
 
@Neil And nobody cares, because you're on 4base and he's on 2base.
 
@DeadMG If offense is balanced with defense, then it could easily happen
 
@Neil But it's not balanced with defence, and it never will be.
that would just lead to turtlefests
 
9:02 PM
We could tweak it so that offense is slightly more powerful, but that negates the benefits of a good defense
 
I've seen it happen
defence is a temporary situation, not a core strategy
 
Normally a defender has the upper edge
 
allowing the offensive player to expand and secure many resource points and produce many more units is a key gameplay tenet in RTS
and all those who have violated it have paid dearly with broken mechanics
 
@DeadMG It seems that you don't want to provide any defender advantage, which is objectively a bad idea :)
 
@DeadMG Yeah, but if you were a troll
 
9:04 PM
@Neil Then so what? You still can't make defending viable, because your opponent has 3x as many resources as you.
he's just going to fly in with a giant armada and crush everything you've got
@ScarletAmaranth Time is a defender's advantage. And my space PDDs are more advantageous than your proposed planetary ones.
 
@DeadMG He's waited until you've smashed your army once before he spreads to another planet and turtles that one
 
@Neil If you smash your army, you're an idiot.
 
@DeadMG Just make defensive units/buildings OP and you avoid that!
 
if your opponent is turtling up, then just expand, wait, and win.
 
@DeadMG That's the name of the game, lest you be a turtle
 
9:06 PM
@Neil No, the name of the game is "Sit outside his base and prevent him from expanding whilst expanding yourself. Then make 99999 units and instawin."
that's exactly how it works in Starcraft, and it works well
and judging whether or not you can break someone's defences is a choice that requires skill
sometimes you can all-in someone and win the game, but, make a bad call and yes, you do go behind.
 
@DeadMG This is how you're supposed to play, but you can't assume people will always play aggressively
 
Also, one problem that can emerge is that there will be no way of getting back into the game once you make a mistake, which there should be (to an extent ofc).
 
@Neil You can, because people who don't play aggressively lose the game.
 
@DeadMG If your objective is trolling or making the game unenjoyable for other players, then no
 
@Neil WTF makes you think that trolling can do anything?
 
9:08 PM
@ScarletAmaranth There is: your opponent makes a mistake as well.
 
troll as much as you like, it won't change the game mechanics.
if you play defensively, you lose the game by being outmacrod, and that fact does not care about why you chose to do it.
 
@DeadMG Fine, you'll lose.. eventually. I never said otherwise
We don't care if the players win or lose. We care if they had fun playing our game
 
Also, playing defensively is a viable sodding strategy ;)
 
well, people who play like that will go to the bottom of the ladder and only play against each other, and the people who don't will go to the top and only play against each other.
 
If we allow strategies that are lame, but effective, you will see players use lame, but effective strategies
 
9:09 PM
@Neil But it's not effective at all.
is my entire point.
there is no way in which defending, as a core strategy, is effective.
the defender has a few advantages, which may counter a small advantage that the attacker possessed from some previous action, but even when abused to the max, will never come close to making pure defensive play viable.
 
@DeadMG You're missing my point entirely
 
I have no idea what your point is.
 
If you were on 4chan playing chess and a player made a stupid move, maybe it's not a valid strategy whatsoever. Maybe the move involves putting your queen in danger.. the player who made that move doesn't care about winning
 
Scorched earth is an effective defensive military strategy. Not sure how easy you can make that work in a game.
 
@Neil Right... but so what? It only takes a few minutes to clean that guy up.
enjoy your free rating points, or find another guy to play with.
 
9:14 PM
@DeadMG If that's true, we have nothing to worry about
But at the very least, you'd have to spread to a couple planets, build them up, and create an army worthy of 3 planets
Which is a waste of time
 
not particularly
see, you're missing a critical point here
there are two kinds of players: those who play to win, and those who play for fun
if you're playing to win, then winning is winning, and a free win is a good thing
if you play for fun, then you find some players who play in a style you find fun to play against, and you play almost exclusively against them- against your friends who don't dick you around.
in neither case is it possible to have a sustained problem.
 
@DeadMG And the ones who are playing for fun? They win maybe, but they don't want to play our game anymore
 
@Collin @sehe You use Linux right? Are there predefined macros to detect building on Linux? __linux and __linux__, perhaps?
 
trolls are the vast minority of the population, they don't make friends and they don't win the game, so it's hard for any player to have a sustained problem with them.
 
@RadekSlupik compiler?
 
9:17 PM
@sehe GCC
 
19
A: Macros for GCC/G++ to differentiate Linux and Mac OSX?

themoondothshineThe next time you want to check out pre-defined macros supported by GCC on a platform, run the preprocessor with the flag -dM. It'll list out all the predefined macros available on the system. For example: $ touch dummy.hxx $ cpp -dM ./dummy.hxx #define __DBL_MIN_EXP__ (-1021) #define __FLT_MIN_...

 
@DeadMG So what you're saying is, the limit in starcraft was 200 units but there was no real reason why that limit existed..
 
#define __linux 1
#define __unix 1
#define __linux__ 1
so yeah, enough ^
 
I currently have this, but I don't know if it's accurate enough.
#if defined(__APPLE__)
#define PLATFORM_MACOSX
#endif
#if defined(_WIN32) || defined(_WIN64)
#define PLATFORM_WINDOWS
#elif
#if defined(__linux) || defined(__linux__)
#define PLATFORM_LINUX
#endif
Ok, thanks. :)
 
@Neil There's also no reason why their UI is terrible, although they deliberately made it that way.
or why Battle.NET 2.0 is significantly worse than Battle.NET
 
9:18 PM
@DeadMG The limit exists in SC 2, I remind you
 
@Neil That's what I'm talking about.
 
@DeadMG Well I have to disagree
 
did you ever play Supreme Commander?
 
Unfortunately I don't think I can convince you, so this is probably something that will only be evident after testing
 
they had a 500 unit limit- or 1000, if you wanted- and it worked out fine
also, they seem to have been the only people smart enough to think of a "Repeat" button on their factories
and waypoints you can drag and re-position after you create them
Starcraft 2's UI is a giant pile of cock compared to SupCom: FA's.
there's a million dead pixels which aren't the game or meaningful user interaction
 
9:21 PM
@DeadMG It's 200, not 500
 
the player has to manually and repetitively perform many tasks the game could automate
@Neil Supreme Commander has a 1000 unit limit.
 
@DeadMG Good for them
 
oh, and that's 1 limit for all units, whereas Starcraft 2 goes up to 6 limit per unit.
so as far as I can tell, there is no reason for Starcraft 2 to have a 200 unit limit. Nor is there a reason why they don't have movable waypoints or repeat build buttons or such things.
 
@DeadMG You can re-set waypoints or set them to units which are not stationary
 
Fork'd, now to inspect DeadMG's current codebase. If my eyes don't die first (tired).
 
9:24 PM
That's beside the point anyway
 
@Neil So when you set a 10position waypoint, you can just set them all again to move the last one?
 
@DeadMG You don't mean a moveable waypoint then, you mean a multi-point waypoint
 
@Neil No, I mean a movable waypoint. My point is that "just set the waypoint again" only really works if you have queued only a very few waypoints.
 
@DeadMG I won't say it was very practical, but yes, you could set the waypoint in a new position and the new units go to the new waypoint
 
and repeat build?
what's up with that?
it's boring-tastic to constantly push the same hotkeys for the same builds over and over again
 
9:28 PM
I've added platform macros so you can now do platform-specific stuff. :)
 
@DeadMG I think they wanted to simplify the interface (click 5 times, create 5 units, etc.)
 
@Neil Yeah, it's totally a simplification to have to push "S" every 17 seconds exactly or you lose the game.
 
@DeadMG Simplification for them, not you
 
sod that
pretty easy to code in a repeat button, and the help for the players far outweighs the developer time
 
@DeadMG Ask them why they did that then.
 
9:31 PM
@Neil They said it didn't fit the game, or something like that.
 
@DeadMG Well that means absolutely zilch, doesn't it?
 
@Neil Yep.
I wouldn't follow any RTS game fanatically, but Blizzard have sure been cocking up a lot since they started working on World of Warcraft.
and I'm certainly not going to do anything just because Starcraft 2 worked that way
 
Guys, we're are working on our own RTS. Let's make it ours.
 
planning on it
my codebase making your eyes haemorrhage yet?
 
Just pulled it down, my eyes are so freaking tired, every time I leave the house. I have to blink 5 times until the image clears up again.
Do remember, Blizzard guys were a bunch of barely paid university scmucks who had a mortgage on their house and on top of that, managed to borrow $20,000 from their grandmother when they were starting out.
 
9:35 PM
@DomagojPandža For now it looks like we're working on Puppy's RTS really :)
 
@DomagojPandža And they did a lot better of a job then than they do now.
@ScarletAmaranth No, I simply want to wait and discover what the problems are with the existing design, rather than inventing solutions to problems we might well not even have.
 
They could make anything and people would buy it
 
Take it easy, Scarlet. You need to develop a thicker skin than that, have you ever tried submitting patches for Firefox? :P
 
@DeadMG The existing puppy design you mean :)
@DomagojPandža Oh, i saw their retarded bug tracker, wow, what a mess.
 
well, I have been thinking about this for quite some time
 
9:38 PM
That's the point I'm trying to make ;)
 
Well, it is puppy's baby. I can respect that. If it were my GI solver, I'd be ranting around too. :Đ
 
I've said several times I don't mind going with his basic design, but I do mind the terminator approach to all other ideas :)
And wtf is GI solver :D
 
well, I do somewhat object to the idea that we're just going to glue on a bunch of random crap with no idea if it's necessary or even beneficial
 
Do we compile with trigraphs enabled or disabled?
 
Trigraphs are not in C++ are they ?
 
9:42 PM
Global Illumination set of techniques, be it shallow-bounce radiosity or calculating ambient occlusion in screen space, that which delivers very realistic rendering instead of the basic realtime models based around local illumination.
 
@ScarletAmaranth They are.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Wrong
 
They are ? I though it's C exclusive, naet.
 
C++ has bigraphs too
 
Mhm, last time I tried using some of that shit in visual studio, it refused to compile I reckon.
 
9:45 PM
> 2.3 Trigraph sequences [lex.trigraph]
> 1 Before any other processing takes place, each occurrence of one of the following sequences of three characters (“trigraph sequences”) is replaced by the single character indicated in Table 1.
 
What was the reasoning behind putting trigraphs into the language anyway ? Like, wtf ? To introduce bugs ?
 
nobody here needs to use trigraphs in the input, so
@ScarletAmaranth Character sets and keyboards which did not include the ASCII range.
obviously a long-gone problem now.
 
We'll just disable them, right?
[ Example:
??=define arraycheck(a,b) a??(b??) ??!??! b??(a??)
becomes
#define arraycheck(a,b) a[b] || b[a]
— end example]
xD
 
If I saw anyone write such code, I'd personally see to them being banned from "Lounge<c++>" ^^
 
@RadekSlupik This will be handled on build-system level.
Checking for predefined macros will break, sooner or later, and probably sooner when you do cross-compiling.
Also, it's ugleh.
 
9:49 PM
How will you do conditional includes?
 
@RadekSlupik Don't.
 
They're ugleh.
 
@DeadMG Good luck implementing OS specifics. Boost I guess?
 
That doesn't need conditional includes.
 
Oh so we'll just defined one header file with an interface and then implement it for each platform in a different cpp file?
 
9:51 PM
Yes.
 
Oh ok.
 
Hence why platform/ tree in src/
#if defined win
#include "platform/win..."
#elif defined linux
#include "platform/linux.."
...
is silly and boilerplatey.
It even looks silly.
 
k removed the file
Everything in namespace kyrostat or global namespace?
 
that's a good question
 
capital K
PascalCase
 
9:57 PM
PascalCase for everything?
 
@DeadMG for local variables?
 
PascalCase it is then, but I'm not putting the sodding " { " into a new line, not gonna happen :P
 
I propose PascalCase for namespaces, types and template arguments; camelCase for variables and functions; under_scores for casting functions (like foobar_cast<>()) if we have those.
 
you guyz started writing codez
 
nope
not really that is
 
10:02 PM
oh
 
I'm writing some code.
I have written int main() {} xD
 
I think radek wrote some header includes which then got rejected :P
@RadekSlupik That's 100% error free, good work.
 
I wrote main.cpp and I'm now writing code to convert between NSStrings and std::strings, needed for Mac OS X.
Not a big deal but it's nice to have those functions and I need them later.
 
ah I see
 
So, here's a question.
Have we settled on std::string then ?
 
10:04 PM
Oh yeah of course. :/
 
Cuz ppl were talking wstrings and unicode and shit, dunno what to make out of it.
 
nobody was talking wstrings
that shit's just bananas
 
std::banana
 
template<class T>
T foo();
template<>
std::string foo<std::string>();
// is right, right?
 
@DomagojPandža Ooh, i've just read some about "GI solver", what EXACTLY is global illumination ? Just multiple lightsources creating a final effect combined, or ?
 
10:06 PM
@RadekSlupik I think it needs to be inline, because it's a definition. I'm not sure though.
 
Wait I'll try it on ideone.
It's correct.
 
Global Illumination is, simply put, full light propagation in a scene. In the real world, light travels at 299792458 m/s, which is blazing fast for our experience. As it ventures through the environment, it deposits part of its energy into surfaces and gets reflected onward until it reaches your eye. Indirect illumination is the key aspect of global illumination.
It hits obstacles, "bleeds color" onto nearby surfaces, reflects, refracts... And that dance is hard to simulate in realtime.
For games, we usually use a more blunt approach of using lookup textures for a lot of the data which we use in a more "local" illumination model.
Local illumination means that it doesn't give a fuck about obstacles.
And one more common sense thing we do is trace from the eye, rather particular light rays, as they might never end up affecting the final image.
 
@DomagojPandža Makes sense, ty.
 
@RadekSlupik Oh, I was talking about linker errors. Explicit specializations cannot be in headers unless inline.
 
@DomagojPandža for someone what such an unEnglish name, your written English is very good. I'm assuming you're not English natively?
 
10:12 PM
Croatia, if only I were native to England / US.
 
Native to UK, sure, to US, no ty :P :P
 
oh wow
lol
 
@RadekSlupik I doubt this will be really needed.
 
@TonyTheLion Even writes poetry off-hand. A real piece of work, this lad :)
 
There shouldn't be too much platform glue.
 
10:13 PM
Nah that would get sticky around the edges
 
@sehe wut?
 
@TonyTheLion @DomagojPandža writes poetry.
 
It's better than doing [NSString stringWithUTF8String:foo.c_str()] everywhere.
 
@TonyTheLion The listener and his way with words
 
It'll be in /src/platform/osx anyway. Not visible to the outside.
 
10:14 PM
Wut.
 
oh I see
 
My point is, we probably won't be using platform API enough for that matter.
What strings do you want to use there?
What I can think of is window title.
And that's about it.
 
g-strings
oh, not apply to programming :P
 
Oh how surprising that Tony says that.
 
oh, even the vacuum cleaner is starting to "know" me
2
 
10:21 PM
@thecoshman pirate y u no here.
 
He's probably asleep at this time.
 
oh lol :P
But that's a waste of time!
 
Enable Large Addresses: No (/AWAREIAMARETARD)
Really, VS?
 
Oh so slight problem with thread building blocks if we're going closed source
It's GPLv2 unless we buy it
 
urgh licensing
use VIM and GCC
 
10:30 PM
Something wrong with boost threads?
 
develop with FOSS version and pay for TBB if and when it comes to that
 
@TonyTheLion Neither of those is a threading library.
 
@Collin They are significantly suck compared to TBB.
 
@DeadMG But we can't distribute at all unless we go OSS
 
10:31 PM
oh lol, for some reason I read Code::Blocks
 
which means no beta tests outside us
I have no problem with open sourcing it, but it seems the general consensus is for closed
 
I think you should worry more about that when there is some actual code
 
It's $300 a seat
 
I'm for open-source.
 
I don't mind open source
 
10:32 PM
Me too.
 
I don't mind open source at all.
 
Do we use Boost.Filesystem?
 
Oh, any particular version of Boost?
 
Latest.
 
meh I don't think I have the latest version of Boost
 
10:35 PM
Then install it. :P
 
Did we end up deciding on some sort of unified build system?
 
Yeah I'm writing code without a build system. xD
The only thing in the pull request qua code is main(){} though.
 
@RadekSlupik Dude this thing practically writes itself
 
I won't pull request anymore, I might break everything. :P
 
10:40 PM
@Collin SCons.
 
@CatPlusPlus oh excellent
I caught all the IDE discussion but I hadn't seen if anyone had picked a command line build
 
In the end, IDEs will be handled through SCons too.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, I've set up eclipse and netbeans in the past to call scons build commands
 
I've generated VS projects for Boost.Jam, I can generate VS projects for SCons.
 
So, who here realistically thinks that this project will be finished, one day ?
 
10:43 PM
You should bookmark decision-making conversations.
 
euh, I don't think that's ever going to be finished
 
@ScarletAmaranth Honestly unlikely, but if a reasonable number of people stay interested, it could turn into something pretty neat
 
who's ever finished any software project?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ideally they get added to our design doc but we've been less than good about that so far
 
I mean, we might have a working game some day, but will it be finished?
 
10:44 PM
@TonyTheLion I finished a Dashboard widget for Pastebin.com.
:P
 
I don't think so, will always require maintenance etc
 
Yes, by finished I mean a working game with at least 20% of features we have in mind :)
 
yes
that I'm sure we can pull off
 
I never finished anything.
Well, hello worlds, maybe.
 
Finally managed to subdue DeadMG's Render. Damn alignment and function parameters, I showed them!
 
10:45 PM
There's no such thing as finished project.
 
@ScarletAmaranth I thought there weren't going to be many features.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yup, and now imagine 20% off of that ^^
 
We might be able to pull the basic game off in few months.
 
if we're all coding like loony's
 
in Lounge<C++>, 4 mins ago, by Ethan Steinberg
@RadekSlupik Can you let me into the Kyrostat room. Seems like an interesting project that I would want to participate in.(Even if all I can do is write documentation).
 
10:48 PM
Kk, it's good to know that at least some of us actually believe in this thing ACTUALLY happening for real :P
 
Has somebody not me already coded stuff? :P
 
I'm doing BB config.
 
Sounds fun.
 
Nope, but I've read some TBB docs if that counts as "moving forward" :)
 
10:50 PM
Yeah i had like 50, give or take.
 
@RadekSlupik My phone was going nuts all day :-P
 
@RadekSlupik exactly how I feel :P
 
Most of them was generated by permission changes. It'll be less now.
 
Couldn't you just turn notifications off?
 
10:51 PM
They're already getting sorted to my kyrostat label
 
I want notifications.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that's what I did
 
If I didn't, I wouldn't have them on.
 
@RadekSlupik Woah, why is that thing full of duplicates?
 
woah in Dutch???
Blasphemy!
 
10:52 PM
Buildbot's config is in buildbot repo, BTW.
 
who uses a computer in a language other than English???
Dafuq?
 
I do.
 
It'll be up in a sec, though it can't do much anyway.
 
It would be awesome if @thecoshman accepts my pull request so we have the directory structure.
 
So Ethan wants to join, dat a bad thing :) ? What is our policy for this ?
 
10:53 PM
yep, cuz there's just not much he can do
 
oh recycle bin
why did you bin it?
 
10:54 PM
fapping is not allowed here?
 
Come on, boost your build, boost.
 
Since when it's called "recycle bin"?
Oh, it's a new one.
 
@DomagojPandža Is it a lot of effort to build a company from scratch ?
 
no it's easy as pie, you just have to know what you're doing and have money
 
10:56 PM
1 message moved to recycle bin
:P
 
@ScarletAmaranth If you have contacts and people with problems at arms length, no. If else you have a project and lots of money, no. Else, it's a lot of effort.
 
@TonyTheLion If you like Kyrostat to be a sex game, write it in the documentation. :P
 
@DomagojPandža Then i fall into "lot of effort", gosh :P Ty ;)
 
Well, nothing worth doing is easy. That's why we're here. :P
 

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