last day (27 days later) » 

8:01 PM
Well, I'd imagine planets would mostly be used for resources and structures.
If you had a limited capacity for colony, then you couldn't camp in one spot for the entirety of the game, and was forced to expand.
Something has to drive expansion.
 
What is this crap about being over the plan limit?
 
you are anyway, because resource collection is unbounded
 
It would be interesting to have buildings "sticking out from a planet" in different angles :)
 
I can't make my own fork?
 
@Neil You forked on to your account, not the group account.
 
8:02 PM
@DeadMG You mean bounded?
 
@DeadMG oh
 
@Neil It's even in pins. :.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, I mean, unbounded, although I should have been more specific.
 
How do I reverse this then?
 
the collection from each planet/asteroid/whatever is indeed bounded
but the total is very definitely unbounded
 
8:03 PM
@Neil Remove the fork that's on your personal account and fork again to clounge.
 
whereas in Warcraft 3, for example, you had "upkeep" so if you expanded, you didn't get 2x income
 
@DeadMG Oh, yes, I didn't mean limiting the total amount of resources.
Although perhaps it could require maintaining storage facilities.
 
so if your opponent expands and you don't, then you're going to be collecting only half as many resources as him
 
@CatPlusPlus Easier said than done
 
Well, indeed, gather as much as possible, that's a must for unlimited unitcount sort of thing anyway.
 
8:04 PM
not a very advantageous position
 
@Neil Admin > delete repository.
I don't see any reason unit count should be limited by anything else than available resources. Maintaining large armies is hard enough on its own. But that's might be just me.
 
@CatPlusPlus Thank you, Cat. Do you have any worshippers? I might have to convert.
 
@CatPlusPlus I completely agree.
 
I mean, there's only so many things you can pay attention to at the time.
 
another reason why I think that localized effects are a dumb idea
 
8:06 PM
@ScarletAmaranth I wonder how much of that was driven by computing capacity rather than balance issues
 
if you have an army which is of X size, and it moves around a planet or star, it's just going to make a mess if that object has a small localized effect
 
@DeadMG You know, the idea with planets was that they would boost speed of ships around them.
 
If planets were colonisable, and limited in capacity, then another challenge would be to balance defences/production/extraction or stuff.
 
Or at least that's what I understood.
 
Well, I want something that will provide some tactical advantage beyond FoW.
 
8:07 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Which de-synchronizes your units just as surely as slowing them.
 
I'd be fine with a on-planet structure that provides advantage to nearby units.
If it has some maintenance cost to it.
 
We do need some sort of defender's advantage though.
Anti-ship cannons on planets?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Travel time.
by the time your fleet gets to your opponent, he will have mined more resources and built more ships than you
 
Yeah, defensive structures would be nice.
 
Simply because FoW is the only thing we have considering einvornment <-> tactics interactions.
 
8:08 PM
although I do intend to provide static defences
 
@DeadMG Unless you hyperjump.
 
We need defender advantage.
 
But that really needs limited capacity, so you can't turn your planet into a death star.
OVER 9000 ION CANNONS BLOW THEM UP.
 
@EtiennedeMartel True. I don't actually have a Homeworld-style Hyperspace currently- only warp gates.
 
So, you could capture planets and put defense on that?
 
8:09 PM
Guys, if you want me to remember any of this, write it on the documentation
 
@EtiennedeMartel It'd be neat, don't you think?
 
@Neil Not fixed yet.
 
@Neil We're still discussing.
 
and
 
The chat history is forever as well
 
8:09 PM
the action takes place in space.
not on planets
 
Lets talk about more boring stuff, like what the hell is phase 1 going to include?
 
Yes, it does.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think so. You could have a specialized drop ship whose purpose is to capture planets by landing on them.
 
Maybe it's something we eventually want to do, but maybe not all of it at once
 
Obviously, basic game should be just pewpewing in space.
Doesn't mean we can't have a plan for more content.
 
8:10 PM
@EtiennedeMartel And then possibly being able to turn a planet into a defensive "object" of some sort ... ?
 
@DeadMG Planets are just large control points you can capture and fill with weapons. But no real action happens there.
 
Yarr, still better than have planets do nothing.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Yes, that was the idea.
 
Not just weapons. Resources, too.
 
Captured planets give you a resource income.
 
8:11 PM
And perhaps shipyards for small vessels.
 
yeah, resources and point defense
 
And require large ones to be built in-space.
Where shipyards are far more vulnerable.
 
If you want to steal a planet from the enemy, then you would have to do some orbital bombardment until it's weak enough, then send the dropships.
 
So action is in space, resource mining(?) and stuff on planets?
 
Cat, have you already pushed the project structure you discussed earlier?
 
8:12 PM
Although DeadMG wanted "mining" of sort and I reckon that's not a bad idea, not just automatic resource gains because you own a planet.
 
@Neil I pushed /src/platform/osx. :P
 
@Neil No, I'm doing merging tutorial and Buildbot config currently. I think daknok's doing some basic stuff.
 
Hmmm. Yeah, protecting workers is important.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Resource-harvesting structures.
 
I can do the directory structure. Does Hg support adding empty dirs?
 
8:13 PM
You have a planet, a maximum capacity and you have to choose what you want to have there.
That's my vision.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, units.
 
@RadekSlupik No.
 
@RadekSlupik I've understood that it can't, no
 
It also wouldn't be a bad thing if we had planets actually orbiting, but I'm not sure whether it wouldn't break the gameplay. It would still be cool! :)
 
@DeadMG Or units.
 
8:13 PM
@RadekSlupik Put a PLACEHOLDER empty file on them.
 
@RadekSlupik Though Cat proposed a structure that I liked earlier
 
Oh ok I'll add a ".keep" file to the empty dirs.
 
I like the idea of colonies being automated, though, so you concentrate on macromanagement and ships.
 
I have never seen an RTS where your "planets with resources" orbit and move around slowly, in a predictable manner.
 
I used to play this game that was like Risk in space, one interesting aspect was that the orbital physics played a large part in how you could move your ships.
 
8:14 PM
It would be something fresh I daresay.
 
I would create a project separate from the actual game to hold the engine and the more technical details
 
@ScarletAmaranth I've seen one.
 
@ScarletAmaranth No.
 
@ScarletAmaranth The time scale doesn't quite fit, though.
 
Maybe I'll remember a name.
Maybe I have it on Steam.
 
8:15 PM
if the N sides of the map start in exactly the same alignment and such, then it just looks very, very silly
else, it's not balanced between the N sides.
 
@DeadMG Yeah but if we could make it work for 1v1 maps say, it would be epic.
 
@ScarletAmaranth I don't think having your colony move right into enemy space would be a very fun thing.
 
We can do random maps later.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Two solar systems rotating as exact mirrors of each other still looks pretty silly :P
 
Like, when everything else is done.
 
8:16 PM
@DeadMG No need for exact mirroring :) I see your point though, I'm just saying it would look really cool if we made it work somehow :P
 
Or maybe earlier.
 
yes, you do need exact mirroring
nothing else would be acceptably balanced
 
So, planets add an element of map control. Planets could be relatively distant from each other, so as you capture more and more, your army spreads quite thinly.
 
@DeadMG You could have them both orbiting at the same speed but with a different starting point, that wouldn't ruin the balance and still wouldn't be symmetric.
 
@DeadMG Unless certain types of planets offered different advantages - it would be tougher to balance, but not impossible
 
8:17 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Right. But they don't need any mechanics other than "Mine from planet, amount mined per planet is fixed".
@ScarletAmaranth It would most indeed be imbalanced.
 
@DeadMG That doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun.
 
the planets would align (heh) to give one player an advantage at one time or another.
 
@DeadMG It would most indeed not be imbalanced :P
@DeadMG Yes, you would have to take it into consideration.
 
Symmetric sounds boring.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, but it does mean it should wait until after everything else is done and dusted.
 
8:18 PM
Spreading your army thin capturing a lot of planets is obviously risky, but there should be a payoff
 
@DeadMG No mechanics are needed. We don't need shields, for instance.
 
@DeadMG Oh, yes, I'm not saying "let's do everything at once".
 
@ScarletAmaranth There's no "consideration" you can do to "Well, the planets rotated this way so I'm fucked".
 
We're making long term plans as well as short term ones.
 
The obvious payoff would be more resources
 
8:18 PM
But I agree that it could be done at a later phase.
 
We have to have some endgame vision ready.
 
I like the idea of having worker units because it gives you something to protect.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Actually, we pretty much do.
 
@DeadMG Well, if you see their orbiting speed and direction (outline of orbit or whatever), you can count in factors and judge when the "planets align"
 
Shields are just fancy way of saying "more HP".
 
8:19 PM
@DeadMG Why? Because you thought about it?
 
@ScarletAmaranth Right. But you can't control it and you can't stop it from giving your opponent a giant advantage.
 
@CatPlusPlus Actually, not in this case :)
 
When some of it recharges.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Because they're directional.
 
@Neil I added the directory structure. @thecoshman still needs to accept my pull request though.
 
8:19 PM
@DeadMG You can prepare for the "giant" advantage :)
 
shields are "more HP"- sometimes.
 
@DeadMG So? Why have shields?
 
and it's the sometimes that's important.
 
Direction shields are better than "here's a bubble around me that adds hp".
 
How is combat going to be? Is it going to be a starcraft system, or is it going to have more of an abstract feel to it like final fantasy
 
8:20 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Because it makes bigger ships very vulnerable to flanking and other tactics they would otherwise not be vulnerable to.
 
@DeadMG You're justfying why they're cool, not why they're needed.
 
@ScarletAmaranth How? You can't magic in extra resources or ships. Your opponent has a free advantage and that's the end of it.
 
Let's not delve into "needed/not needed", but rather "needed right now/not needed right now".
 
@EtiennedeMartel Inter-ship balance mechanics are most definitely needed.
 
Final fantasy is perhaps a bad example
 
8:21 PM
if you ever played Homeworld and it just basically came down to Battlecruiser/Destroyer spam
 
@DeadMG You can balance things differently.
 
Much of the tweaking will come from playtests anyway
 
@DeadMG How big are you imagining those planets to be exactly ? It would provide an area advantage rather than an overall advantage.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Not really. That's like saying you can free() everything you malloc().
 
What I'm getting to is that declaring a feature as "not needed" is silly. Games are defined by their features.
 
8:21 PM
sure, you can, but the effort taken and probability of success are quite bad
 
If we're going to be colonizing planets, we can safely assume things are not going to be to scale
otherwise, planets would be enormous by comparison
 
@ScarletAmaranth Fairly big. You would need to keep several groups of patrolling units to maintain vision on all sides.
 
@DeadMG And their size related to the whole map ?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, and many of them are broken by their features.
 
What was the name of that game. Gah, now it'll be killing me forever.
 
8:23 PM
Btw, @DeadMG, why are you so against adding features :D ? I'm looking for features to add simply because those little things make the games fun, I'm not trying to change the core functionality of the game.
 
@DeadMG Micromanagement is not good if you have to micromanage all your planets
 
@CatPlusPlus The one with orbiting shit ?
 
Yeah.
 
@Neil If you can set units to patrol an area and a appropriate notification system, that's ok
 
@Neil Eh. If you have a reasonable number of units, it should not be hard to patrol around the system and get a reasonably good chance of catching the enemy.
 
8:24 PM
Hg isn't as horrible as I thought.
 
@Collin It's still micromanagement. You'd have to build units and set them to patrol for every planet.. it gets redundant quick
 
@ScarletAmaranth Because features can break games just as easily, if not a lot more easily, than they can make them.
 
I think more features are beneficial, as long as they're properly implemented. I mean, SC wouldn't be as fun if it wasn't so fucking complex.
 
@Neil Nah. You can build a stationary radar dish.
 
That is better for a type of game that would have at most 3 planets to guard
Not 15+
 
8:25 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Actually, SC is an example of a game with very few features.
 
@RadekSlupik It's quite similar to git.
 
@DeadMG It still has a huge skill ceiling because each feature brings lots of flexibility.
 
But take SC as an example.. how many resource areas were there on the map?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Have I asked you to merry me yet ?
 
At most you were micromanaging 3 separate bases
 
8:26 PM
So, has a consensus been reached on questions of IDE ( I assume we're sticking with GCC 4.6/4.7+ goodness)?
 
It increases the amount of possible actions a player can perform.
 
@Neil At most .. 5 :)
 
@ScarletAmaranth Yes.
 
If SC maps were made so that you'd have to manage 15+ bases, it would be a pain
 
@EtiennedeMartel No. It has a huge skill ceiling because they sat down, thought out each feature carefully and designed them as a job lot and did not randomly throw in whatever they could think of. And most, if not all, of it is simply about the units in the game.
 
8:26 PM
And you would have to manage all 15 equally, since there's no bottleneck in space
 
@ScarletAmaranth Standard late game zerg in SC2? At least 5 bases, yeah.
 
the number of features is quite low. the number of different units is quite high.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Good, the next one coming up is: "Have my kids", that's when the things get creepy.
 
I have AI War on Steam, but I don't think it was that.
 
@DeadMG They still thought about the features instead of shooting them down out of fear they turned out bad.
 
8:28 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Arguably, the game already has more features than Starcraft 2.
 
Well, crap.
 
it's also easier and better to tweak than to make drastic changes
 
@DeadMG Not really.
 
besides
there are plenty of ways in which SC2 is hardly a paragon of excellence
 
Phase 1 should allow you to build units, structures, expand to planets, capture planets, fight vs computer
 
8:29 PM
and it's got many flaws which I aim to not duplicate
@Neil PvP before PvC.
 
And I'm calling that Phase 1.. something you can start with
@DeadMG True, that would be easier still
 
@DeadMG And you think this could potentially and realistically be as good if not better than Stracraft 2 :) ?
 
@Neil I think we should only consider planets as resource clusters for phase 1.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Well, I wouldn't design a game I knew was worse, would I? :P
oh, also
 
@EtiennedeMartel Well I definitely think resources will have to be included in phase 1
 
8:30 PM
whilst I intend for there to be quite a few planets per system like, let's say 8-15, only 1-2 of them will be minable planets
 
We might look at the whole planetary colonization later on.
 
@DeadMG To think and to know are two different things :)
@DeadMG Then we def. need another function of planets :P
 
Is Phase 1 something releasable? Or this this engine way further along than I think it is?
 
@ScarletAmaranth Not really. They serve fine as LoS blockers.
 
Hiding a fleet behind planets for ambushes would be cool
 
8:32 PM
@DeadMG Narr narr, i disagree with that vigorously :)
 
@DeadMG I can see the strategic value in planets even without resources, but I think some should offer bonuses
 
@DeadMG Does that mean you would have to mine from asteroids and such?
 
Perhaps you capture a planet and it informs the user that a rare engine material was found which increases speed for fighters by 20%
 
(Homeworld style)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Nah.
the asteroids in Homeworld were basically the same damn thing
 
8:33 PM
Well, if you make planets VERY resource rich, you will make the game more static.
 
@Neil Way too random.
 
@DeadMG I like random. Otherwise users explore everything there is to a game after the first time they play
 
Can somebody please accept my pull request?
 
So, where do you get those resources?
 
If planets had known effects (say color / shape identifiers), it would remove the randomness.
 
8:34 PM
Or does thecoshman do that?
 
I'm sure you'll like random when you play the game for an hour and then lose because of something you could never possibly have prevented or seen coming and was just a complete roll of the dice that you could have won
that just makes the game have no meaning
 
Yes. He wanted to be repo master, so ping him.
 
there is no place for randomness in an RTS game
 
@thecoshman I made a pull request!
 
You would know what you're going into and know what effect you want, you would simply put a lot of effort into getting to a certain planet you want to.
 
8:35 PM
@DeadMG Woah.
 
I played age of empires 2 for years and it had randomness too and noone ever complained. (Relic positioning on the map.)
Not BIG randomness, but something to consider.
 
I highly doubt noone ever complained
 
Random maps are so much better than fixed ones
2
 
in fact, many people probably complained extremely loudly
 
It requires actual scouting instead of stupid map memorization
 
8:36 PM
you just didn't notice because the whole Internet thing and RTS competition didn't really exist then
 
Could someone update the trunk with daknok's fork?
 
Brood War had a small amount of ramdomness (firing from low ground to high ground had a chance do hit). They removed that in SC2.
 
Seems we have an actual structure to build on
 
@Pubby The actions of the other player are supposed to require scouting.
random maps just guarantee that you get fucked, randomly, which is a giant waste of everyone's time
 
Well, you need to scout either way.
 
8:37 PM
there's no strategy or entertainment value in wasting your time winning or losing randomly
 
@DeadMG No, they are fairly balanced
 
if you can't guarantee balance in every situation, then it's not enough
 
I wrote several random maps for Age of Mythology, they had a special language for constructing them and you would specify how the resources are distributed.
 
eh
it's one thing to have a few maps which are random, and another to have it as a core mechanic
if you have the odd random map, then people can just not play on it
 
I think aside from the static background of the map, the playable map could easily be random
 
8:40 PM
Also, we have to be careful about the distance between players not to entirely disable and cripple rush strategies.
 
@DeadMG I'm sure they could kick your ass in it, most went on to be high level in Starcraft 2
 
For terrains you can use Perlin noise. It's pretty good.
 
Some quick checks that planet resources are not too close and that they are some close enough to each player
 
What terrains? :P
 
@RadekSlupik There's no terrain in space, right?
 
8:40 PM
Do I now, on planets or something.
 
No need.
 
Oh ok.
 
At least not until we decide on planet colonisation with structure position micromanagement.
 
@Pubby Silly players can consider anything "noob".
but there are no maps for any RTS game which is played even remotely competitively which include randomness.
 
@DeadMG What is going to be the average travel time from the begin pos of player A to begin pos of player B (calculated for an averagely fast ship)
 
8:41 PM
Personally, I would opt for macromanagement where only planet's capacity matters.
But that's for later anyway.
 
planets don't have structures
you can place structures wherever you want- including in intersolar space, if you want to
 
@DeadMG It is easy to go from randomness to a static map
Not so easy the inverse
 
Whoops, I edited instead of posted new
@DeadMG I'm sure they could kick your ass in it, most went on to be high level in Starcraft 2
What's the league after diamond? That's what they were in.
 
because that's a totally verifiable statement
@Pubby I've been in that league too.
a long time ago when I actually wanted to play Starcraft 2, before the shitty, shitty UI ground away my will to play it
 
@DeadMG Well, the idea of turning planets into point defense drones was good, so why would you discard even that ?
 
8:43 PM
@ScarletAmaranth Why would you need it?
there's utility for non-planetary static defenses which can serve the same job and more
and secondly, I'm sure that if you went back and asked them now, they would not want randomness in their Starcraft 2 games.
 
@DeadMG Defender advantage for important areas / something to fight for / can be made stronger since static, therefore good protection of miners ... ?
 
@ScarletAmaranth All of those properties can be fulfilled by a structural defence.
 
@DeadMG What is the advantage of "non - planetary - static" defense then.
@DeadMG They make more sense stationed on the planets.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Well, they can do all of those things, but you can also put them in intersolar space, or pretty much anywhere you want.
 
@DeadMG And you shouldn't be able to I daresay :)
 
8:47 PM
restricting player choice without a good rationale, like enforcing balance, is a bad idea
 
@DeadMG point defenses should be limited to where they could be built, that way you can restrict the amount of shit that you can actually build so you're not gonna have a fucking fortress
 
@ScarletAmaranth You can't have a fucking fortress anyway. A fortress can only hold one position. The enemy will simply outmass you with their three less defended positions, field a dickton of ships, and own you.
not to mention that if you have a fortress, it can only engage enemies from one angle, which is not very strong against shielded ships.
 
Well, a planet those would be built on would provide certain protection for them, so it wouldn't really be an option to flank a point defense turret.
 
it's not anyway
the point is that point defence turrets don't have the option of flanking anything else
and you can't hold more than one position with them, so they can't form the basis of any long-term plan.
you can use them to deny scouting (if placed properly) or light raiding parties, but that's pretty much it.
or maybe as fire support in a large battle, if I introduce a missile-turret kind of thing
but that would suck hard against bombers, so you couldn't use it as a cure-all defence
besides, PDDs which are effective against bombers do jack all damage against something larger
 
So, in other words, you want us to code the game according to your "brilliant puppy vision" :) ? I don't entirely like that :)
 
8:55 PM
what we really need to do is get the game's infrastructure up and running, and play it, and see how it is
then address the problems we find, not the problems we think we might find
 
I think we'll find that if you can build as many structures and ships as you like, resources permitting, you'll see all sorts of extremely annoying strategies
 
like what?
 
Not to mention I don't think it would increase gameplay styles, but rather allow a single "best strategy" of playing
Use your imagination, have you played starcraft?
 
why would that occur?
I have
 
I've seen some strange strategies and SC is balanced
Imagine what would happen if there were no limits on units?
 
8:58 PM
but before about the 15-20th minute, nobody does have limits on units.
the fastest max is the 12min max, and there's a bunch of strategic variety before that
and most races or builds cannot max before 20-25 minutes
 
> block LoS
what does that mean?
 
the only purpose supply serves in Starcraft is as another form of defender's advantage
 
it's in the doc in several places?
 
@TonyTheLion It means that the player cannot see through it.
 
@DeadMG It's supposed to be another resource to protect
 
8:59 PM
ah ok
 
@TonyTheLion Block line-of-sight.
 

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