« first day    last day (26 days later) » 
00:00 - 13:0013:00 - 19:00

12:00 AM
@DomagojPandža Good luck to yer lady tommoz btw, hope she nails the "exam".
 
I hope so to, it's an hour long drive home. Anything short of success will be awkward.
And speaking of success, I've forced DeadMG's code to work, damn alignment boundary was wreaking havoc, luckily, just a few instances of it.
Now all I need is to fix his renderer. :Đ
 
Oh, it's buggy?
 
@DomagojPandža So, are we using some of the DeadMG's renderer ?
 
Renderer, very likely not. He has some simulation stuff going on, that's what where we could benefit.
The renderer itself is DX9 based and broken at that (silent failures)
Here it is, running.
 
Mhm, shiny, i guess :)
 
12:13 AM
Hi, I'm the VS IDE. I can find all the include files and compile the project successfully, but I still think it's an error so I'm going to underline random includes.
room topic changed to Kyrostat: About to align DeadMG on a 16 smack boundary. Also, bacon. (no tags)
 
alignas ftw
 
12:36 AM
What's the deal with all these barely 15 youtube singing "stars"?
Can't they go plough a field or something?
 
Bitch please, why aren't they laying their programming basics down?! :)
 
 
5 hours later…
6:11 AM
damn you guys, inbox 50+ ¬_¬
 
6:34 AM
can some one explain why all of the fork URLs at 'thecoshman@...'
 
7:10 AM
12 hours ago, by Cat Plus Plus
When you fork the repo, select clounge as the user.
 
7:30 AM
@sehe doesn't make sense to me though we they fork url for the forks by others have my username, or is that the URL for me to work :S
 
Sorry, I can't make sense of that sentence at all.
Also, afk
In case it helps: username@hostname:port/path/to/resource is the usual form of a url (often with a protocol:// when it's not clear from context). Obviously, the username is not part of the actual url, though the path/to/resource might not be valid for other users, depending on server implementation
 
@thecoshman For ever fork made, it told me I had admin rights to it
 
@sehe ooooh, so the 'protocol://username@' bit is just optional, yeah, that make more sense
 
It's kind of a pain, agreed
Do we have something committed to the trunk yet?
I'm afraid of pushing anything to the trunk until we get a structure that's somewhat stable
 
'closed' that sync.in doc we had
 
7:39 AM
For those of you looking for the documentation: docs.google.com/document/d/…
@thecoshman Star that please
I worry that someone will have linked to the old document and not the new
 
just work away in your fork, maybe in a branch if you want. don't ever push to the main repo though
no need, it's on the star board already
it has a super star and everythnig
How private is our repo? I think the design stuff would be better of in the wiki system if it was visible to only us
 
You realize that writing a program from scratch is madness
In the sense that, merging 12 different programs is giong to be difficult/impossible
Makes more sense to all build off the same structure
Source always goes here.. resource always goes here, etc.
I assume we're not out to make 12 different games
 
yeah, we do need to get some basic structure, for now I suggest you just start of doing your thing, first person to get a structure that doesn't cause uproar wins the race :D
 
@thecoshman It'll cause an uproar no matter who wins
Everyone will have his or her own structure to modify
Better to establish a structure now
 
well, you know where the design doc is. Put something down and we can discus it as a starting point
 
7:47 AM
@thecoshman I'll put up a proposal
Same can be said for a program architecture
Everyone doing their own thing will have the same problem
I can't do much now because I'm at work
But a project structure I think I can manage
 
8:03 AM
Okay, added Program Structure section in documentation for anyone who wants to read it.
If you don't like the structure, discuss it here first since people may have already committed to it. After which time, highlight any modifications made in the documentation (including deletions with strikethrough).
 
I'd rather have 'res' or 'resource' rather then 'data
 
Fine by me
 
would we put each library into it's own folder, '/lib/lua/' '/lib/boost/' etc. actualy read this, yes we will :P
 
definitely
When you consider that most of those libraries are zip files with a bunch of crap inside
I would prefer to leave the contents of the zip relatively untouched
So if we needed to download future versions of that library, the structure will be roughly the same
Maybe wouldn't hurt to include version in folder names
 
yeah, would be nice if we could have a script to download all the depenecies
@Neil god no!
if you do that, it make's it a pain to just upgrade the version
 
8:14 AM
@thecoshman Well upgrading a library should require that someone knows what they're doing
 
if I swap out '/lib/lua/lua_static_lib.a' I don't want to have to go through the entire code base changing the version number. Sure it could be done through some sort of pre processor or build script, but why not just solve the root problem
 
Otherwise we risk that someone could commit a new version to the repository and make everyone else's version not compile
Ah ha, so you would be that person!
I guess I can see the advantage of that, but I hope it doesn't backfire
 
if some one tries to change the version of a lib, it needs to be justified and tested
also, a lot of people like to have a /source folder and a /include folder, with .cpp in the former and .h in the latter
I'm still not sure about that structure though :P
 
I've been working on legacy software that divides all source and headers for roughly 4 years now
And I despise it
I think I might have to write that we're not doing that
otherwise someone will come along and insert those folders
 
I'm fine either way, I know Cat has done that with springbok, so I assume he prefers that methos
also, in terms of putting stuff into the master repo, are we being strict saying that it can only be in the main branch?
 
8:24 AM
Well if they can provide a decent argument, I'll go for it
But I think better to organize in terms of function not file type
@thecoshman What do you mean only in the main branch?
 
@Neil oh definitely
 
As far as I'm concerned, what's put in the main branch is a decided implementation added to the program
 
@Neil "...and then merge everything they want to get to master into their clone's default..." ready to make a pull request to the main repo
 
Meaning, maybe it doesn't work still, but it should be tested at least somewhat and it should do what it is supposed to
@thecoshman In other words, must branch from main only?
I don't have a problem with branches of branches, but these are not your problem but the problem of those who wnat to do that
 
well... I guess if you are doing something like a bug fix, make a branch (if you want) for the bug fix in your fork, but then merge it back to main before it gets pulled into the master repo
 
8:27 AM
You worry only about what goes into the main branch
Does bitbucket support a task list repository?
You think we could use it to make a list of TODOs?
 
@Neil erm, it has a ticket system, that can be 'TODOs' not to sure how it works though
 
@thecoshman We need to learn to be proficient at that
Otherwise there will be no easy way of getting the programmers organized
If you learn anything, add it to the documentation as you go along
I'll look at it later if I get a bit of free time or if work ends :P
 
What do you think of using the wiki for all this documentation? I'm in favour big time
 
@thecoshman It seems that bitbucket supports a wiki
 
yeah, it has a wiki there for us to use, it's an optional thing that has been enabled
 
8:34 AM
@thecoshman Yeah lets do that. I don't see us using google docs too much longer
Is the wiki private or public?
Not that I care, but DeadMG might
 
@Neil that's the main thing I am worried about
let's say a couple guys want to work on a little thing, I assume one of them will make a 'master repo' for that feature, they will work on it like a mini project, with there own versions of the repo, pushing changes around. Eventually, they will have the little job finished, and one of them will take responsibility for a pull request to the actual master
 
@thecoshman I don't think new repositories should be created
Only forks
Unless we're talking about something which acts like a tool to the program
like a map editor
 
@Neil that's what I mean
 
8:51 AM
@thecoshman Well if worst came to worst, you could always download the code and integrate it into main manually
It would be a pain, but not unthinkable
However, we're having a slight problem with the repository which lets us have up to 10 developers working at a time. In order to have more, we'd need money,
If you or anyone is interested in helping the effort, we've basically come to the agreement that money is split amongst those who participate, save for those who invest money, who get their money return before anyone else sees a dime
Assuming there is money which comes from this, that is
Or you could probably wait a month and I'm sure half the developers will lose interest, and you can join then. :)
In any case, as far as I'm concerned, you decide the rules on this
So if you say you won't tolerate new repositories, I'll stand by your decision
 
4 messages moved from Lounge<C++>
 
9:06 AM
whats up with smacking me? :(
 
@DeadMG What's that in reference to?
 
@Neil Room topic?
 
Oh that. I don't get that
 
Aligning to 16 sounds like serious SSE business.
 
I don't know what a smack boundary is, but I don't think I want to know either.
 
9:10 AM
So where can I download the Kyrostat beta?
 
@FredOverflow Got a time machine?
I'll trade ya for the Kyrostat beta
 
I'm still waiting for my future self to send me a time machine.
 
@FredOverflow I think either we will never invent a time machine or that our future selves are too lazy
 
9:23 AM
maybe they think it would just spoil the fun
if you can't commit to the master until the source code builds, how do we deal with cross-platform features?
seems to me like that would be quite a mess
 
Don't make any changes to the documentation temporarily
Trying to move to wiki on main game trunk
 
@FredOverflow try again later :P
@Neil you mean on the main repo? btw, the wiki is separate to the code repo, it has it's own repo infact
 
Well, I managed to end up in a restoraunt 100 km from home.
 
lol, that sounds like a long trip
btw, where is the dox now? I need to alter it
 
@thecoshman There's a wiki for the account?
I haven't committed changes. I have it all in preview mdoe, so if I need to move it, I can still
 
9:34 AM
need to add
Lua 5.1.4, not 5.2
 
Okay
 
5.2 broke a bunch of stuff, it's not an upgrade
 
Did someone remove common folder?
 
The funny part is that I have VS running here, I've managed to run your D3D9 sim thingy after fighting of some alignment issues with function parameters. I think I've located the problem with the silent failures, but first I must consume this rather expensive lasagne.
 
9:37 AM
@thecoshman That's the one I'm changing
 
@DeadMG @DomagojPandža you ok with moving to the BB wiki system? I'm not sure how private it is though
 
Okay committed
Now the old google doc should point towards new wiki, and eventually we can eliminate it
 
@thecoshman AFAIK, the reason I didn't use it is because you can't prevent other people modifying it
 
@DeadMG as in can't prevent those out side of the team?
 
I think so
 
9:39 AM
I remind you that the wiki is private, so nobody can see our e-mail addresses
 
> Private wiki (visible only to people who are explicitly granted access)
 
except those of us on the team
 
ah, must be new setting
hey cosh
I get that we should only submit changes to the master repo when they're known to build, right?
 
well, now we have the content in the wiki, we can't moving it to sensible pages
@DeadMG yes...
 
9:40 AM
what about the platform-specific stuff?
I dunno about everyone else, but I only code for one platform
so how could I submit a pull request, when it can only ever compile for one platform if I changed something about the platform abstraction?
 
Might need to see about having a fork that people can push to that the buildbot can test on many platforms
 
@DeadMG If it's supposed to work on multiple platforms, it's quite impossible to code for one platform
 
@Neil Right, but we have separate people for each platform.
 
@Neil he means if he is working on things beneath the abstractions layer, so dealing with winapi of x11 directly
 
and we could only make the platform abstractions, and their implementation, compile for all platforms by working on the same repo
 
9:42 AM
@DeadMG Well lets do the best we can to move windows-specific logic to platforms/windows
 
@Neil Yeah, I've already done that.
ain't gonna change the fact that this code won't build on Mac, because there's no Mac implementation
even ignoring the fact that I have no idea how to use the build system :P
 
@DeadMG Meh, not my problem. Someone said we were going to build it for mac platform
And it wasn't me! Yay!
 
well, thanks for your productive support and consideration of the issue at hand
 
@DeadMG You're quite welcome.
 
no I take your point @Dead
 
9:46 AM
We'll have some define variable which defines the type of compilation
 
@thecoshman I'll submit it to my fork. Then the uglies of the other platforms can pull it from my fork and implement it for their platforms.
then we submit pull request to master repo
 
And the platform factory will provide the proper implementation according to this value
 
Once we get the abstraction layer sort, this will not be a problem
@Neil your mising the point
The problem @Neil is that is we make an abstract window class, we need to still write platform specific code for each platform. If we add full screen support for windows, we need to code the window specific code and the abstraction layer support. It could work just fine on windows, but as there is not support in linux, it will not run
it is an issue
 
It is just a matter of proper abstraction, then just a few of us can comply platform specifics to a uniform interface.
 
ok, let's say you are adding a feature, and you have it all working on windows, but it needs to be ported to linux and mac. We can commit to the master repo, but only to a branch. This will let us keep the main trunk in the master valid for all platforms. It lets others take your changes
Once all platforms have been supported with a feature, we can then merge it back to the main trunk
again, if you are changing something that will break a certain platform, then do it in a branch
and don't be afraid to use stub implementations for other platforms
 
9:57 AM
@thecoshman good idea
 
Well I mean, for an absurd example, if you were to write "openWindow" in the interface, all the work around opening a window using the windows API could still be isolated
So long as we don't try doing complicated things with these windows, for instance
It just needs to be a container for our program
 
so yeah, we would have our windowing library, it will have an 'openWindow' function. Depending on what platform you compile for, it will actually call a different function, one specific for the platform. Once we have the abstraction layer done, this is not really a problem. But until then, if I wrote an openWindow function in the abstraction code and then implement it in linux, it could compile when built for linux, but will fail for windows and mac
Probably the best solution to this, is to also write stub code for the other platforms
 
I understand it could conceivably get very complicated, but that's all code that can be stuffed into /platform/windows
And whatever is third party can be a library dependency
What's important is that the program has an abstract layer it can call the same way despite the current operating system being used
 
but what our ground rule of "don't break the build"? I can't write windowing code for linux, windows and mac. I would just have to write stub code so that it compiles at the least, maybe at run time implements a work around
 
It's good for development in general, since it doesn't slow down anyone while the kinks of the windows interface get established
@thecoshman Define a variable which doesn't include platform-specific code if it isn't the platform we're compiling on
 
10:05 AM
We are not questioning the logic behind abstracting platform specific stuff
 
In other words, if PLATFORM is LINUX, don't include windows headers
Should compile fine, assuming we do it right
 
you are missing the point
 
Don't define any code which is dependent upon windows headers too for that matter
 
let's take this slow
we have a game, it will use a window abstraction system. yes?
as far as the game code is concerned, there is just a magical works on all platforms windowing system.
 
yes
for MinGW, wchar_t is 16bit, right?
 
10:07 AM
@thecoshman You seem to think that having an abstraction layer means you must immediately implement the windows, linux, and mac specifics
 
When we compile on different platforms, the windowing abstraction system will handle at compile time using the correct system calls
if I add a feature to the windowing system, such as 'full screen' mode. It will need to matched with platform specific code, we can't just have abstract 'goFullScreen()'
 
@thecoshman Linux doesn't have a full screen mode?
 
in order for it to still compile on all platforms, we will need to stub out the platform specific code
 
I find that hard to believe
 
@Neil that's a moot point. I could have listed any feature there
 
10:10 AM
@Neil No, he means somebody will have to implement it or stub it out.
 
Only if we have a linux-specific implementation stub
 
Have you ever developed cross platform code @neil?
 
@thecoshman No
 
@neil take a look at cats springbok code, you'll get a better idea of what is going on
You realise, we still compile for specific platforms, unless we use something like Java, we can't write once and then just run the code
 
If abstraction isn't the problem, what is?
 
10:14 AM
it is during the compile process that the abstraction layer will look for stuff like `#ifdef LINUX
linux_make_window_function();
#endif
#ifdef WIN
window_make_window_function();
#endif`
 
As far as I'm concerned, if I declare PLATFORM WINDOWS, the other code doesn't exist and shouldn't be compiled
 
yeah, and that is fine if you only try to compile on one platform, but you need to have SOMETHING for when you try to compile on other platforms
 
Why does something have to exist? Write a factory that returns NULL when PLATFORM is LINUX until LINUX is fully supported with that abstraction layer
 
you need to consider that the code needs to be able to compile on three different platforms at once. The only way to do that is #ifdef wizardy
 
In the meantime, you simply can't run it on linux
@thecoshman Well yeah, unfortunately
I don't think there's getting around that
 
10:17 AM
@thecoshman No, you don't need that
 
exactly, the platform that is not supported will need still have valid code to compile, thus stubs
@DeadMG oh, how so
 
you can use factory methods and simply include a different implementation file for each platform in the build script
 
true
 
@thecoshman If it has stubs, it won't work all the same. If the class simply wasn't there, it would still compile, assuming your factory included and used the proper class for the proper platform and nothing else
 
@Neil it's the same principle
 
10:19 AM
We could create stubs for as many operating systems that exist so that it would compile, but we don't have to.
What happens when PLATFORM is DOGFISH? Why do we need to worry? DOGFISH isn't a supported platform
Neither is LINUX until we implement it
It doesn't break compilation unless there is code to break
 
except, we only want to support win/linux/mac for the now, so we need to be able to compile for them
 
@thecoshman If you want to flesh out all three platforms, then yes you have to write the stubs. You worried about what the abstraction methods will be? Is that it?
I'd just assume build the model around windows and let that model serve as an example for other platforms once we get around to coding it, obviously doing our best to keep the interface generic
 
yeah, I don't think all the team members on Linux and Mac are going to accept that
 
@DeadMG We don't have anything to run. It's not like we have this stupendous game that Linux and Mac user's can't compile
 
@Neil If they're working on some other area of the game, then they need to run and test that.
 
10:24 AM
If the factory returns NULL, that's a fact that is only made evident when trying to run the game
They can still compile
 
if we consider cross platform support from the start it will be a lot easier to wok with
shoehorning that crap in will be a hgue pain in the ass
 
Besides as I see it, when we get to that point, they can be the ones to implement that particular aspect
@thecoshman Well that's a minor detail as I see it. However if you want to address it now, then we need to decide on an interface
 
so is your solution to support non-windows just (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
@thecoshman No, my solution is "Watch how Windows support is done. WindowsPlatform derives from Platform and implements openWindow, so logically, if I want it to work with Linux, maybe I should make LinuxPlatform which implements openWindow."
How is this complicated?
 
we said from the start we want to be able to run on Linux Windows and Mac. And it is not just a case of writing the interface, we need consider that the way X11 (and what ever shit Mac uses) will influence the way we want write the interface
 
10:28 AM
@thecoshman Well I can't pretend to know the pitfalls of implementing for Mac, because I don't normally write programs for Mac.
If you're familiar with these problems, then good, otherwise, why are you trying to worry about it?
 
@Neil Hence the very essence of our problem.
@Neil Because it has to be considered.
 
exactly, so we can't just drive deep into "this is the best way for windows, oh sorry, would you prefer it another way? well, it's done now so work it out"
 
uh oh
what has DeadMG done to make the tagline?
 
@DeadMG So, what makes you sure there will be problems with "openWindow" on a Mac. I'm assuming all this fuss is based on some sort of reasoning.
We're not waiting for a mac guy to say, "openWindow" is OK by me. (I hope)
 
@TonyTheLion No idea, it was like that when I got here.
 
10:30 AM
@Neil it's a damn hypothetical example. it could be any sort of function
 
@DeadMG oh lol
 
@thecoshman So we don't even have a reason to suspect there will be a problem. I think we could get stumbled often and in many different ways in the creation of this game if everytime we think there might be a hypothetical problem but we don't know what it could be, we wait for someone to straighten out the issue
 
The main point is, if you don't want to have to deal with cross platform stuff, keep the hell away from platform specific things
@Neil I know for a fact that getting a full screen window in X11 requires a different approach to in WinAPI
 
@thecoshman The person to think about this stuff is probably not going to be familiar with any and all platforms. It's going to be one of us.
 
if we model the abstract on just windows, we may as well just use windows
 
10:33 AM
@thecoshman Different in what sense?
Suppose on Linux, (this isn't true but suppose it were), you must declare that a window is fullscreen at the start
If we had a flag "setFullScreen" in our abstract layer and realized we couldn't set it later
 
@Neil the flow of what you are doing and when is different
 
We'd need to remove it and add it to some constructor instead
But I don't think we can anticipate these types of problems at first
 
oh, we're not going to be able to plan ahead for all the problems, we are going to have to change things as we get to them
 
I'd just assume keep the interface simple (aka openWindow) and not worry about abstracting these things at first
On windows platform, set it to fullscreen and don't abstract it. Later we can try to abstract it more
What's important is that the program does not directly call WindowsPlatform class but Platform class
 
But what about all the AbstractWindowFactoryFactoryProxySingletons??
 
10:36 AM
@RadekSlupik ...singleton
 
@thecoshman Acceptor singleton
 
is @cat's springbok working on windows yet? if so and it is just a case of other platforms need to be implemented I'd suggest we use it.
I really like the idea of using it so the game is just that little bit more 'ours'
 
I wrote a function that returns a path to a directory where we can save stuff like user data.
I haven't tested it though.
What's your opinion of having a comment at the top of each source file which explains briefly what that source file does, like in main.cpp?
 
eh, skip it
most source files should have an obvious function given their filename and position in the project tree
 
Oh ok.
 
10:48 AM
yeah, no need for silly comments
though, what are we doing about licence?
 
zLib license. •'D
 
I think people said they wanted to keep it closed source, I'm cool with that
 
I don't mind either.
 
also, as for a team name, I really like Kyrostat
 
11:04 AM
hi
 
@thecoshman Obviously. U luv lame puns typos
 
hi lamos
what's new? any codez yet to download to my repo?
 
you're a lamo
 
built some basic functionalities on Windoze
now to see if I can make them actually compile and exercute
 
11:12 AM
oh nice
so is there some coordination on who is coding what, or is everyone just coding whatever the fuck?
 
yeah I have no clue :D I was going to do some random windows message processing and shit but it doesn't make any sense to do everything twice :)
 
well, right now, we're still feeling our way around build systems, source control, etc
I think that this evening we will sit down and delegate tasks a little more effectively
 
ok cool
 
hmm
can't compile using std::function, even though I #include <functional>.
ah
apparently needs -stdc++0x or something
 
std=std++0x
or something, if you compile with GCC
 
11:24 AM
Oh, any special compile flags I should be compiling with ?
 
except for c++0x flag, nothing that I know of
but I ain't no expert
 
k
It's weird because I didn't have the C++0x flag set up and std::function compiled just fine ... : - o
@DeadMG Do you feel completely retarded without intellisense ? Because I do, trofl :P
 
I used to feel retarded, then I got over it
 
Im waiting for the shit to tell me that I can't assign T to U before I even press compile and it ain't no happenin' :(
 
@ScarletAmaranth Yeah.
yeah, I'm actually finding it a bit of a crimp in my style.
 
11:33 AM
Also, wtf is wrong with not telling me what arguments does the function accept when I mouseover it o_O
 
Are you discussing C++? I'm gonna tell on you!
 
And it will not tell me shit if there are overloaded instances, it wants me to narrow it down ...
@FredOverflow Nah I'm just complaining about not having Visual Studio :(
 
yeah, code::blocks is kinda teh suck
 
Woohoo, it can find declaration and definition of a function, what a baws IDE.
 
lol
 
11:41 AM
New update, now 15 km from home, another restoraunt, have to take a piss.
 
Oh yeah, documentation style.. doxygen, or just comments?
 
I hope comments, I've always dearly hated doxygen.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Why's that?
 
11:58 AM
@Collin Because it's something extra you need to think about while writing your code.
 
They're just comments which can be built into a nice documentation website
 
I more often than not write fairly self documenting code so I will not plague my stuff with comments (hopefully) anyway.
 
if your documentation can be automatically generated, it has nothing useful to say
 
@sehe off caws
 
@DeadMG The class relationship diagrams it builds are pretty useful
 
12:05 PM
@DeadMG well, if it's things like taking comments from before functions and presenting them in a nice format, it can be rather nice. Some times, just presenting the data in a new way can give it more meaning
 
@thecoshman you're heading off course: you have my compass shun
 
@ScarletAmaranth add more comments, chances are, others will not understand what you are dong
 
12:56 PM
@thecoshman Yeah but I reckon it's better to have shootLazor(Ship target) than sL(Ship t) and then // shoot the sodding lazer while t is the target
 
Sometimes, I write blocks of comments explaining what the function is doing and how it goes about doing it. And for personal pleasure, sometimes I append a latex'd (math stuff) pdf with a particular source file documenting my research/math.
Doesn't work with a production environment, but for smaller experiments, it's gold.
 
Yeah but some twerps write shit var names and shit function names and then they comment what they do, I mean wtf.
 
Rule of thumb: If code is unclear, verify that you can't make it clear. After which time, check yet again that you can't make it clear. Failing that, add a comment.
 
00:00 - 13:0013:00 - 19:00

« first day    last day (26 days later) »