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6:00 PM
@sbi Okay, so, I'm writing a blog article on how we're removing the homework tag on Stack Overflow. You had this really nice comment that is technically defending the utility of the tag (and I won't twist it otherwise), but helps me segue into an argument against the tag (mostly because of its strength as a defense of the tag).
 
203
A: Why doesn't Java offer operator overloading?

paercebalThere are a lot of posts complaining about operator overloading. I felt I had to clarify the "operator overloading" concepts, offering an alternative viewpoint on this concept. Code obfuscating? This argument is a fallacy. Obfuscating is possible in all languages... It is as easy to obfuscat...

Why isn't this the accepted answer?
 
@FredOverflow: I don't understand your question. Or what you're referring to.
 
sbi
@GraceNote Damn, link fail. Both FF and IE land me anywhere on the site. Um.
 
@Borgleader I say that 203 points answers is way better than the accepted answer.
 
sbi
Oh, wait! I can link it here:
@Kev: I do care whether some kid wiggles his way through his CS major and ends up at the desk next to mine. — sbi Sep 15 at 22:10
Ah, that one.
 
6:04 PM
@FredOverflow: No the message before that: @Borgleader What does "language X does not need feature Y" mean, anyway? And what does it tell us about X and Y?
 
@sbi I feel like the CS Major is such a joke most of the time. Like really talented programmers lose out to these weird degree-holding folk who haven't done anything practical or real in their life.
 
@Borgleader You can link to messages, you know?
 
@FredOverflow Its a wikied answer
 
@FredOverflow: I tried permalink but it only opened a new tab in firefox
 
Let me be more concrete: What does "Java does not need operator overloading" mean? Is there any language that needs operator overloading? Is there any feature that Java really needs?
 
6:06 PM
@FredOverflow The poster of the question quite likely haven't even noticed.
 
@Borgleader If you hover over my message, there are three symbols at the right. The one in the middle is a star. Click on the one right to the star.
 
@sbi Aye. Basically, I can either say something like "I've read arguments which basically boil down to 'I’d like them to struggle through school rather than end up employed next to my desk with no experience'", or I can say something like "There's a choice quote from user sbi on Meta, which states <quote>".
 
See, I don't know why you're asking me this because I simply mentioned there was an argument as to why it didn't. I don't actually care much. I find C++'s operator overloading quite convenient and I don't code in Java much so....
 
sbi
@GraceNote Well, as you might imagine, I am not glad about you using that as an argument against what it was defending, but since I said it in public, and know about the license at this place, I ought to be fine with anybody using anything I say here, as long as it is quote fairly.
 
@Borgleader Don't worry, you're not on trial ;-) I just thought maybe you had interesting insights into matter.
 
sbi
6:07 PM
Anyway, thanks for asking nevertheless. I don't think I'll have bad feelings with you using my quote, @Grace.
 
@sbi Wow, that list of comments is longer than most of my answers!
 
@Borgleader struct int_sorted_array would you overload the plus operatur?
 
@CaptainGiraffe Adding two arrays? What would that mean?
 
@FredOverflow adding two sorted arrays...
 
sbi
Sep 24 at 11:08, by Cat Plus Plus
Rules are for bad posters, so you should read them.
@FredOverflow And that is saying something — is that what you are implying?
 
6:09 PM
@CaptainGiraffe Again, what does "adding two arrays" mean?
 
@CaptainGiraffe: No because I don't think it makes sense in this case.
 
It is indeed far more helpful for people to learn in the academic sector before they get out into the working world. I wholeheartedly agree with your argument that it really is important to educate people in there. But, to spoil the article a bit, the segue is that this nobility towards education is lost the moment someone exits the academic sector.
 
@FredOverflow Two sorted arrays, would produce the combined elements in a sorted fashion. That I think is intuitive and simple
However is the operator + the mechanism for this?
 
@sbi To me, and what the article will hopefully convey, the spirit and intent of the tag will live on. I don't want to twist your words to support the loss, but rather, "Here is a pretty good point, which then brings me to my own point..." sorta thing.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I don't see why + or add would be better than the other. They are the same to me.
lol
 
6:11 PM
@FredOverflow merge
 
@FredOverflow Consider my preferred option, a merge member function. The operator might provide ambiguity and so should not be used.
 
sbi
@GraceNote Yeah, go ahead. Please plink me here once you've published that blog posting, so I can post a comment that shreds it into tatters. :)
 
@sbi Shall do, I look forward to your writings.
 
@MartinJames Then call it merge instead of add.
@CaptainGiraffe I would prefer a non-member, non-friend function to improve encapsulation: merge(a, b).
 
@FredOverflow Yes, add or + would suggest to me that the elements of one array would be appended to the other.
 
6:14 PM
@FredOverflow merge as a member works beautifully with internal buffers an such, but yes a non member could be useful. The name merge is a very member friendly name.
the constness would explain how it works too
 
An interesting quirk in C++: You cannot have value-initialized automatic objects, and you cannot have default-initialized temporary objects. — Kerrek SB 6 hours ago
Wow, Zen moment.
 
@MartinJames but if the type was a_sorted_int_array a mere append would break down
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow huh. int i{}; // value init?
 
And thanks, @sbi
 
@FredOverflow lol =)
 
sbi
6:17 PM
@GraceNote I really don't know what you are thanking me for.
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Also... some_type() default init temp object.
 
@sbi For permission. I hadn't actually thanked you yet.
 
Xeo
Or I'm missing something with what Kerrek is saying
 
Blargh...
Template instantiation is kicking my ass.
 
I think Kerrek was into specifics we are not considering.
 
6:20 PM
@CaptainGiraffe Yes, hence confusion with add/+. I would have to look up what the overload did, just to be sure. Don't want to look things up:(
 
Keep them in headers, dammit.
 
Xeo
@jornak Don't forget that they drastically reduced memory usage in 1.3, though. It's like 1/3rd of what it was
 
@MartinJames Not sure I agree with you there the type is clearly stated to have a particular state.
 
@Xeo I think he meant a temporary with unspecified value.
If so, then IIRC that's not an accident.
 
@MartinJames Second read, yes unconfusion is key.
 
6:22 PM
Hey, a quick shout out here. Someone before mentioned that if you inherit a std:: namespace template privately, you won't have to worry about dll-interfacing and stuff.
 
@Xeo some_type() is value-initialization, not default-initialization, right?
 
@CaptainGiraffe I'd have to know the types. The types may be in header, far, far away..
 
@MartinJames Where no man had gone before; the final frontier. Yes I know, we are now in agreement.
 
@MartinJames Are you saying that add tells the user more than +?
 
@FredOverflow No he is agreeing on my merge(const lhs, const rhs )
 
6:25 PM
@FredOverflow No, I'm saying that merge tells me more than +,add
 
Right, so all three of us have the same opinion on the matter? How boring :)
4
 
I can change, I promise.
 
@FredOverflow That's worth a star, for sure!
 
Let's wait for @DeadMG to chime into this :)
 
hehe
It was a starry black night, in the backwoods of east St Louis.
 
6:28 PM
@CaptainGiraffe He's too busy trying to get train tickets. With a bit of luck, he might not see this nasty outbreak of agreement
 
@MartinJames What happened to DeadMG a year ago he was playing nice. ?
 
@CaptainGiraffe He tried doing things. Things like getting passports and tickets. Trying to do things always leads to frustration and disappointment.
 
@MartinJames Seriously, he was a nice dude.
 
@CaptainGiraffe He's not that bad now. Didn't know him a year ago.
 
K, I'm a very happy Gnome 3 user. Now
I want to Javascript the hell out of my desktop
 
6:33 PM
@CaptainGiraffe Oh, I'm so sorry. I hope you feel better soon.
 
@MartinJames My hands never leave the keyboard in G3 unless I have to move one window to the other physical screen
@MartinJames I was a KDE fan 2 years ago, sorry but my heart is with Gnome now.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Yeah, but you also need it for "linking" message :)
 
'My hands never leave the keyboard in G3' - some spiteful colleague superglued your kb again?
 
@VinayakGarg Nope thats a Shift Alt L on this webpage noob!
@VinayakGarg sry =)
 
Doesn't work for me
 
6:37 PM
@VinayakGarg just kidding, see my previous sorry for sorries.
 
okay, nvm
 
@FredOverflow What?
@CaptainGiraffe I'm probably nicer now than I was twelve months ago.
 
Oh - he's back.. I'm off to do some actual work now, bye!
 
@DeadMG I like to imagine you as a nice dude, it was just this thing last week.
 
personally, I'd say that was more your problem than anything to do with me
all I did was disagree with you
there's nothing rude or personal about that
 
sbi
6:43 PM
@GraceNote "We're not abolishing the question class, we're destroying the tag and its associated stigma." Pardon me French, but this is bovine excrements. What is a tag, if not a codified "question class"? And the stigma is certainly associated with the question class, not with the tag you stick on it. People are weary of homework questions because so often they are abysmally bad, not because they are labeled homework.
 
@DeadMG There just was the matter of tone, alas I'm not an expert in tone. My suggestion seems to have worked very well
 
@DeadMG Yes there is! Disagreeing with me means you're an evil bas...well, I tried, but I couldn't even type it with a straight face. :-)
 
@JerryCoffin I object, sir!
@CaptainGiraffe It can be difficult, both to send and receive, tone over the Interwebs
 
user1182183
any linux freaks out here? need some help, not-programming question
 
@DeadMG Yes the webbingmaster is a fickle toneprovider.
@GamErix The easy way is the rm way
 
6:44 PM
@DeadMG It's easy with a modem link
 
user1182183
@CaptainGiraffe rm? what do you mean
 
@sbi The tag has always been independent of questions being abysmally bad, which stands to reason, if the problem is about things that are abysmally bad, then why are we targeting the tag?
 
@GraceNote You make it sound as if we would know the answer to that :P
 
@GamErix I was going to suggest "sudo rm -rf /*" but please dont do that
 
sbi
@GraceNote I have trouble parsing this tapeworm of a sentence, but IIUC, you are making my point for me.
 
6:46 PM
I don't mean "we" as in the people trying to eliminate the tag.
 
user1182183
@CaptainGiraffe heh ok XD
 
@GamErix go to askubuntu instead of here
 
user1182183
Anyway, I want to install this software: poptop.sourceforge.net/dox , I need the smallest possible linux distribution which I can install in VMware Workstation 8 and which will be able to support this software
 
user1182183
what should I choose/download?
 
I mean, abysmal badness is bad. Period. It doesn't matter whether it's homework or not, it's something to be disposed of. Slapping a homework tag is pointless to that end, it doesn't do anything to help get rid of them and what it does is cause weird things about people who legitimately have homework concerns and can voice them in ways that are not abysmally bad.
 
user1182183
6:47 PM
oh ok
 
If the larger fraction of completely bullkrutz stupid questions you get every day come from the academic sector, grouping them as homework doesn't help you reduce their frequency or eliminate them. You shouldn't need to have a tag to throw on and ignore the things because if they're that terrible they should be ousted in the first place so that there's nothing to ignore.
 
@sbi Somehow reminds me of an old story about an American newspaper writer in the '60s who was going to do a political spoof. He'd noticed that white people didn't mind standing in line with black people -- it was only when they sat down that they demanded segregation, so he was going to suggest taking seats out of buses. They pulled the story, because the day it was scheduled to run, there was a real story that the local library was taking out all the chairs in the interest of integration.
 
sbi
@GraceNote Damn, Grace, why do I have to repeat this again — to you, of all SO users, when I always thought so high of your ability to listen?! The homework tag was not for "this is a bad question", but for "please answer this question in a way that maximizes learning, rather than minimizing time-to-working-code!"
 
@DeadMG Do you recall our initial perturbation from a week ago?
 
@CaptainGiraffe Something to do with everything is a file?
 
6:49 PM
@sbi Correct! That's precisely the point, and why the stigma is something to be avoided.
 
@DeadMG Yes, I tried it this week with my students with excellent results
 
user1182183
seriously what the fck... forgot my password and my email account got deleted by accident(?!) by M$...
 
sbi
@GraceNote You will not avoid the stigma by removing the label. People in wheelchairs are not magically unstigmatized just because they aren't called cripples anymore, but handicapped.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Define excellent results.
 
user1182183
any way to log into stackexchange from SO?
 
user1182183
6:51 PM
without providing my password?
 
I can't explain this in the span of text messages, I largely imagine it'll do nothing but infuriate you as you think I don't understand.
 
@DeadMG These are introductory students. A file can be opened read [and|or] written to, and closed.
 
@GraceNote It appears to me also that you don't.
 
@DeadMG That will happen when as much that hasn't been said, hasn't been said.
 
It works for the console as well as cin cout, console being pipes
 
6:52 PM
@sbi The simple fact is that the homework tag was useful. Yes, it was arguably a meta-tag, but it was still useful, and (specifically) told you something about what sort of answer was best for this question. Now, usefulness is being ignored in favor of some theoretical notion of purity, with no apparent gain to make up for the loss (and no I don't think we're disagreeing here -- more expounding on slightly different problems with the same action).
 
sbi
The problem is, @Grace, that so far, nobody from the burninators camp has even addressed the problem that the tag was not to mean "crappy question ahead", but had a real, useful, necessary, and important role in the education of the people who will be our co-workers. Let alone any of them putting force an even half-convincing argument.
 
Well, let me try one approach. I don't want to aggravate people by starting something here, but let me just try this.
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Erm. I'm the choir, Jerry. The ones to preach to are over there.
 
The only thing that got me about the homework questions is that there doesn't seem to be any slot in Computer Science courses for 'How to debug' between 'Hello world' and 2 pages of arrays, indexes, pointers, malloc etc.
 
@CaptainGiraffe That doesn't require "Everything is a file".
 
6:55 PM
@DeadMG Still grading the stuff though
 
@sbi Which is why I was writing a blog post.
 
@MartinJames Computer Science courses are bullshit, through and through.
 
What do you do if someone has a particular restriction in the technologies or methods they can use to solve a problem, and they indicate as such in the body of their post?
 
@GraceNote Sometimes I work around them, but if they're overly onerous, I vote to close it as too localized.
 
@DeadMG :(( That's what I suspected..
 
sbi
6:56 PM
@GraceNote I ask if it's homework, which would explain the weird restrictions. If it is, I tag it homework, so the next user doesn't have to read all the comments to see this.
 
@DeadMG It makes a lot for the understanding of /dev/fb but thats another story.
 
I don't even know what /dev/fb is. Streams your Facebook timeline?
 
@ThePhD what?
 
@sbi Yes, I realize -- but based on what they've said, I'm pretty sure posting it to you will have exactly as much effect (none) as if I posted it to "them" on meta instead.
 
@DeadMG Now this is a statement I take offence to.
 
6:57 PM
And if it isn't?
 
sbi
Then often it is too localized without any good reason and should be closed.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Well, it's a generalization. I'm not calling your course bullshit. Merely in general.
 
Hrm. Okay. So much for that approach of an explanation, then.
 
I take offence.
 
Then I guess I'll take off for now so I can write this blog post so you have something more concrete to stack against. I could leave a parting comment about values dissonance but that would be such a tease.
 
6:59 PM
Oh! I don't want to cause any more trouble! Can I take my star back?
 
fuck, I feel bad now about being so much of a rep whore.
 
sbi
@GraceNote I firmly believe this isn't so much a problem of you ("the meta crowd") needing to explain your belief to the heathens. It is a problem of you having been annoyed by the constant fuss about homework questions to the point where you became unreasonable and started the cargo-cult belief that the problem would disappear if you just wiped out that tag. Which is, plain and simply stupid.
 
@sbi I'm glad none of that applies to me, personally, then
 
What happens is I get inclined young students into my pipeline, I teach them stuff, they leave me for good gigs. This is my do, DeadMG I'm at 100% after 9 years. Yes I'm just an advisor and a lecturer. Still.
 
I'd been trying to get rid of the tag myself since the early days because of its arbitrary half-efforted application. The fuss has never been an issue since I was bothered by the half-effective system as a whole.
 
7:01 PM
@CaptainGiraffe At least IMO, you have no real grounds for taking offence. Although stated as a fact, it's clearly an expression of personal taste -- not really any different from my saying "coffee is horrible" instead of saying "I don't care for coffee." The two mean the same, and my dislike for coffee is hardly grounds (no pun intended) for anybody who likes it to take offense.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Perhaps your students are just lucky.
 
sbi
@GraceNote Oh, what a great approach! Stackoverflow doesn't solve all the world's programmer's problems, so let's just shut it down.
Sorry for becoming sarcastic, but none of this makes any sense.
 
@DeadMG Yes, they seem to be =)
 
but I know that my course, and all the other CS courses I've looked at (which does not include yours) were giant wastes of time for all involved
 
@sbi Why is it that we're only harsh on education of people who are not yet programmers? Why aren't we strict on people who are in the real world and can actually do immediate damage with their folly?
 
7:03 PM
@GraceNote Wait, we're not strict on such people?
 
@DeadMG When we need a tag to tell us to educate people instead of giving solutions, that is what the larger quantity of people will exercise.
There is no short list of people who always give helpful, detailed answers that explore every nook and cranny, no matter who the recipient asker is. It's in fact a pretty long list of users across the site.
But if you want a tag to tell you "Oh, hey, don't give this person a quick solution", that means you encourage "Give this person a quick solution" whenever that tag isn't present. It means that any time it isn't homework, it's fair game for the asker to get away without learning anything.
 
user1182183
well if anyone interested in helping: askubuntu.com/questions/193793/… :p how come that site is not as popular like SO?
 
@DeadMG I just went into the lab with a dudette, first year first semester, they are doing a LEGO like course, with the option of doing a simple android app. We are big on android and sensors. This dude[tte] had an amazing widget going. Help he/she got. of course.
 
sbi
@GraceNote First, it's not about being harsh, it's about being helpful. I have taught (C++) to students for years, and when, in the lab, they would ask why their program doesn't do what they thought, I'd never tell them "you need to change A to B because of X." I'd always ask them questions. ("What happens to your value in this algorithm over here?")
Second, many of us here are harsh to users who just dump a stupid question and expect the world to solve their problem. Very harsh indeed.
Third, student/no student is a clean divide. Among post-study programmers such clean divides are hard to come by.
 
@GraceNote I don't think it's a matter of "are we harsh or not?", but of "what sort of response is most likely to help this person?" When something is specified as homework, even if (for example) the specified data structure fits poorly with the result, it probably makes no sense to recommend a different one.
 
7:08 PM
@sbi I don't mean harsh in a negative fashion, and I'm sorry if it came across as such (which, well, I guess in that it is a negatively connoted word, it would always do just that).
 
sbi
@GraceNote There's a clear divide between an obstacle someone runs into while doing some task at their job, and a problem someone is tasked to solve to learn something.
 
@CaptainGiraffe That's lucky for some. My university wouldn't have dreamed of anything so useful. Try looking up the course materials at Stanford- they're really the worst of C89 stuff, global variables, string types, etc.
 
Sorry if I keep talking too fast and poking in like that. I'll hold back and let you guys finish, it's rude for me to do this..
 
sbi
@GraceNote Again, I have no idea what you're apologizing for.
:5539271 Every obstacle you run into when doing your job is teaching you something. But when you are a programmer, the focus isn't that much about learning anymore, but on getting the job done. That might be sad, but it's also a reality. My boss is glad if I learn something, but if it's at the cost of meeting the deadline, he's not glad at all.
 
Xeo
Ohey, daknok is really gone now.
 
7:15 PM
r-r-r-ragequit
 
@sbi Eh, I just don't want to be all jumpy and interrupty. Text is an asynchronous medium - if I jump in with counter arguments before someone finishes even constructing their argument, then it destabilizes and may upset that person. So I should really do better to wait until people have said their peace.
 
sbi
@Xeo Shrug. I don't believe in people really rage-quitting. Usually, something has been boiling for a long time, and whatever they see as the reason was just the last straw.
 
@DeadMG Oh shit - I enjoyed his company, while it lasted.
 
@MartinJames As did I.
 
sbi
@GraceNote Peas on earth! :) ("peace" ==> "piece")
 
7:17 PM
@sbi Better get a shovel then
 
I always figured it was piece, but I've got a history of writing "peace" as much as I say "PIN Number"
 
sbi
yesterday, by thecoshman
stupid homophones
 
..and good vegetables to all men
 
Hm. I wish I were a better example of what I want to portray, but noooo, I had to go and actually isolate what I wanted to learn instead of asking how to solve the problem...
 
sbi
@GraceNote Seriously, it's actually rather quite here right now, and we hardly had more than two conversations at once. These parallel discussions tend to make my head explode, so I try to avoid them, but for this room it wasn't all that bad right now.
 
7:21 PM
Mmkay
 
^ what's a mod doing here?
 
sbi
And I simply cannot fire away my lines as fast as some of the kids do here. I have to think, type, correct spelling, rephrase... — and all that takes time.
2
@LuchianGrigore Chatting.
 
@sbi I'm glad people do that
@LuchianGrigore I'm not quite a mod, I'm a Stack Exchange Community Coordinator. It's nice to meet you.
 
@GraceNote hey there
who was bad?
you here to kick someone's ass?
:D
 
sbi
@GraceNote I sometimes wish I was not such a perfectionist. Or a better one.
 
7:24 PM
No one was bad. And if anything, @sbi is the one thrashing me, not the other way around, haha.
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore You know, sometimes, only sometimes, moderators (which @Grace isn't one of) do other things than kicking people out.
 
@LuchianGrigore Start reading here:
2 hours ago, by Grace Note
Well, I mostly wanted to check if @sbi was around, and if not, if anyone knew when he usually might be around.
 
@Mysticial Lucky strike!
 
But his name is all blue & stuff
 
sbi
@GraceNote If you consider this thrashing, make sure you're not around if one of the kids here misbehaves.
 
7:26 PM
@LuchianGrigore and he glows in darkness, yea, we know
 
@LuchianGrigore I have moderator powers across the network so I can do my job, but I was not appointed by the popular vote (not here, at any rate).
 
sbi
Go bother Jane, Tarzan. What you say? Got none Jane? Well, well, who'd have thought that such a nicely behaving young man...
 
@BartekBanachewicz The mods here are radioactive?
 
kind of. jk.
 
-39 3 hours ago removed User was removed
 
7:28 PM
haha! would be touche, if I was single
 
@LuchianGrigore -135 myself.
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore -70 here. So? Shrug. It's not real rep, you know.
 
@LuchianGrigore -20 for me. One on my 3k answer.
 
I googled for "fuuuuuu" and was suggested "fuuuuu" =))
 
7:29 PM
@DeadMG That's quite big. Oh small.
 
It was probably daknøk's deletion that gave us all of those.
 
What deletion?
 
User requested a delete, apparently
 
daknøk seems to have quit.
 
sbi
That makes me think. That kid had only ever given me seven upvotes? In, what?, three years?! What does he think who he is?
6
 
7:30 PM
haha
 
whaaaaaaa........
 
Sometimes it's alarming just how much, but also how little, certain users vote for each other.
 
btw, what does happen if you rep cap and votes keep coming?
 
sbi
15 mins ago, by Xeo
Ohey, daknok is really gone now.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You just don't get more rep.
 
7:31 PM
He probably upvoted me more than twice. But I repcap regularly so it only came out to 2.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you get the votes... :D
 
@BartekBanachewicz You stop earning reputation for those votes is all.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It overflows
 
@BartekBanachewicz undefined behavior.
 
wait, what? why did daknok delete himself?
 
user1182183
7:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz rep cap? seriously do we have that here?
 
so if mysticial gets 100-140 daily rep for his 3k answer, it means, no less, that 10 people come every day and upvote it?
 
The votes stay in the system and are tracked. Just to get it out of the way, if you lose earlier votes because of a deletion on that day, then you will then get reputation from those previously capped votes.
 
sbi
@NikiC Why don't you look into the transcript?
 
Yes 200 a day, excluding accepted answers.
 
7:32 PM
(sorry, I just looked in your rep history @M)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes
 
sbi
@Borgleader And bonuses.
 
<oh well>
 
user1182183
@LuchianGrigore 337/day limit?
 
@sbi: Ah yes, those too. The only bonus I got though was from linking my SO account to codereview
 
7:33 PM
I guess the more you have the faster it grows
 
@GamErix 200 is the limit on all sources we block. Which is that from getting voted on or having an edit suggestion approved.
 
@GamErix 200 day limit.... What's over that is accepted answers...
 
I've gotten a +50 bounty once.
 
@Borgleader accepted answers, edits etc. and bounties
 
user1182183
ah soo
 
7:34 PM
Acceptance, bounty, any other source of reputation besides those two can allow you to surpass 200 per day
 
user1182183
well i won't get 200 rep a day so I don't have to worry
 
@sbi Sorry
 
Wow, why do I have six different tabs opened all to my same Unicode question? Why wasn't one enough?
 
@sbi to be honest, I've looked into it but never found the actual reason
 
@Mysticial O.o Thats cool. Whenever I take a look at those bounty questions I never have the slightest clue as to what they refer to.
 
7:35 PM
@Borgleader did you ever try to read FAQ?
 
@Mysticial was the bounty offered by community or a user?
 
@GraceNote Different encodings? <g>
 
@LuchianGrigore user
 
@BartekBanachewicz: Part of it, yes why?
 
you know
 
sbi
7:36 PM
@NikiC If you search for... oh, the hell... here it is: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=5524447#5524447
 
there's surprisingly little to write about member pointers
 
It was some SSE optimization question.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz All he gave was "Mods y u censor my comments."
 
@MartinJames I'm not actually sure what that g tag is supposed to be.
 
@sbi duh. seems childish to me
 
7:38 PM
BTW does someone know of any legit C++/Visual-C++ certifications?
 
@DeadMG Well, there's this thing where you can do the conversion from ptm of derived to ptm of base and magic happens. That's about it though; it really is a parlor trick.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Well, he still goes to school, so you do have a point there.
 
@LuchianGrigore there are NO official c++ certifications
 
sbi
@GraceNote grin
 
@BartekBanachewicz not official... but widely recognized...
 
7:38 PM
Ahha, thanks.
 
@GraceNote It's me grinning - one of my curent jobs, (where do they all come from), involves internationalization and I've got this horrendous Unicode/BIG5 Chinese problem. Just the mention of Unicode makes me go strange at the moment..
 
@LucDanton Shouldn't that be the other way around? The derived members don't necessarily exist in base class.
 
@LuchianGrigore 1. Get hired at M$. 2. Become MVP 3. profit
 
@BartekBanachewicz you can't be an MVP if you work for MS
 
really? oh, that needs update in my KB
 
7:40 PM
@DeadMG The magic is that it's fine as long as the resulting ptm of base is used with objects of appropriate dynamic type. True story.
 
sbi
@GraceNote Usenet also knew <g,d&r>. I always loved that. I would employ it here, but as the 300lb gorilla watching over these boys I have very little cause to duck and run.
 
@LucDanton Oh.
 
@MartinJames Ah. Mine is less harrowing. And ultimately meh and silly of a practice probably.
@sbi They're the ones who duck and run, no?
 
@DeadMG IIRC it's one of the reason that ptm are a bit non-obvious to implement and optimize away in general.
But what do I know.
 
You know what would be cool? If SO offered some sort of certifications :D I know it wouldn't be of much value, but it'd be cool nonetheless...
 
sbi
7:42 PM
Sep 17 at 7:32, by Neil
@angryInsomniac Don't mess with the angry ape-man in the corner.
 
3 hours ago, by jornak
@Marko Programming is like sex; the first time you do it, you cry.
WTH!!! who the hell cries during sex?
 
Heh
 
@LuchianGrigore They just call them badges instead.
 
I have a doubt about unions.. it looks like a struct but doesn't work like. If I modify the value of an element it will affect the value of all of them, so it means it will assign the same value? or what??
 
sbi
@GraceNote Should we consider this a reply to @Luchian's question?
 
7:44 PM
@rogcg all members share the same memory. So, basically, yes.
 
@rogcg but theoretically it's UB to read from a different member than the last one set.
 
@sbi It could be misconstrued as such
 
what If I have a float and an int, and I set the value 10.5 to the float element, what happens?
 
Xeo
@rogcg The float is now 10.5.
 
7:45 PM
@rogcg the float element will have that value, and the int element... you can't read it...
 
Xeo
Nothing else happens
 
in my very amateur opinion I dont see very use for this
 
Xeo
If you try to find out if anything happened to the int, you get UB
 
@rogcg It might, depends on types, alignment, padding. __attribute__((packed)) is your friend
 
sbi
@rogcg "A union is a struct with all its members at the same address." (Stroustrup) Technically that means union members just expose different ways to interpret the same memory location. Officially, only one of the members can ever be in use. That is, there are no others that can be changed.
 
7:45 PM
@rogcg Although the standard doesn't guarantee it, pretty much every environment will give you the binary representation of 10.5 as a int.
 
Xeo
@rogcg It's a low level facility for setting up tagged unions (aka boost::variant like stuff in C)
 
@sbi all others can be changed, they can't be read from.
 
sbi
@rogcg In 20 years of doing C++, I might still be able to count on my hands the number of times I have needed unions.
 
@LuchianGrigore wait wait.... 0_o confused here.. so only the float element will be assigned?
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore Tree, forest, nobody there.
 
7:46 PM
@rogcg Try some protocol codeccing, or embedded stuff. You will.
 
sbi
@GraceNote If it can, then here it will.
 
Xeo
@rogcg We never said that. We only said that the float is now 10.5. No chance to observe anything else.
 
@rogcg theoretically, yes. In practice, it's what Mysticial said.
 
lemme read all again. too much information heheh
 
sbi
7:48 PM
@rogcg Yes, but it's at the same address as the int. Only, once you've written to that address through the float, you mustn't read the int, so you can never really know.
 
While implementations like to use union as hooks for interesting behaviours, there are still ways that you can e.g. run afoul of strict aliasing. Still needs to be careful.
 
@sbi see if I understood. it's a way to store multiple elements in a single memory location, but I can use only one of those elements.
 
^ basically, yes
 
sbi
@rogcg ...at any time. (You can use another one at another time.) Yeah.
 
ohhh please. isnt there any other data structure that does that in a better and pretty way?
 
7:50 PM
@rogcg boost::variant.
 
sbi
@rogcg "that"?
 
@rogcg wait wait... what are you trying to do?
@rogcg actually, why don't you take it to Stack Overflow?
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore If he takes to SO what he asked here it will be closed quickly as NaRQ.
 
Ask on SO how to achieve what it is you want to achieve.
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore If he could formulate a proper SO question, you'd all be jumping onto it if he asked the same one here.
 
7:53 PM
Yeah - maybe the wrong horse for the course.
 
@sbi yes. And? :))
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore It makes no sense to send him to SO when he will fail there.
 
@sbi Not now you've all suggested a SO post, surely? (you wouldn't be that mean, would you? :)
 
sbi
@MartinJames my parser failed on that. (Could be my fault.)
 
@sbi Maybe not, post probably malformed anyway. My encoder needs more beer.
 
sbi
7:58 PM
@MartinJames Ah, beer. I just ran out of the stuff. I'd kill to have another one tonight. :(
 
@rogcg Yes -- for a typical usage, consider a network sniffer. It receives packets. Until it examines the contents, it's just an IP header followed by some bytes, represented by an "IP packet" entry in the union. Based on the first bytes, it determines that it has, say, an RTP packet, so it uses the "RTP packet" member of the union to look at the part defined by RTP.
 
If I had to guess your favorite book publisher:
 
sbi
@FredOverflow AW!
 
"AW" as in "SWEET", "ADORABLE"?
 
@sbi Right, that's it. I'm off the club for X pints Doombar. 'Bye for now..
 
sbi
7:59 PM
@FredOverflow I was answering your question.
 
Addison Whatever?
 
sbi
@MartinJames Damn. I have two sleeping kids to watch over here...
 

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