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9:00 AM
@sbi Yeah, I know what you mean. When I partner up with someone for a project, I can tell right away whether they have work experience just by glancing at their code. And it's largely independent of their soft skills.
Granted, I have very little work experience myself (2 summers). So I shouldn't really be talking.
 
sbi
Damn, who is that asshole flagging here?
 
I didn't even notice the flag since I've had a ghost bubble for the whole day.
 
(I’d love to answer it but I haven’t got time :/)
 
@Mysticial You have internship at Microsoft. So you should really talk ;p
 
9:04 AM
@Mysticial Well, how do you tell? Just because they write crappy code?
 
That sounds like a bad indicator.
 
@KonradRudolph No.
Those without work experience tend to lack a certain degree of discipline in their code.
 
Ha, I bet I could've fooled you then.
 
But it's also difficult to tell apart enthusiast programmers without work experience from those with work experience.
Enthusiast programmers have their own discipline. But at least they have one.
 
@Mysticial I think that depends. With my limited work experience working as a full-time programmer I tend to write extremely clear code, where I bog down is on large-scale architectures. You can learn writing clean, disciplined code without ever working on a real project.
 
9:10 AM
@KonradRudolph Architecture is a whole 'nother beast
 
@KonradRudolph Most of us here fall under the "enthusiast" category.
 
And I think that's a skill in of itself
 
Architecture is big topic...
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, as a robot you'd be very disciplined. OTOH, your lack of soft skills must be legendary.
 
Like anything, it's a skill that you can be without and still be a good programmer
 
9:11 AM
@sbi :( Does that show?
 
It simply limits you to the size of the projects you can do
 
Architecture is something I can definitely speak of having been through process of single-handedly designing and implementing a 100k+ line program for that Pi stuff.
What I lack is group skills for massive projects.
 
##div#pagelet_ego_pane_w
 
@Neil I don’t believe that. Even smallish projects need architectural considerations sooner rather than later, or else they will never get beyond a critical size
 
^ AdBlock Plus rule for Facebook
 
9:12 AM
(it doesn’t have to be a fancy architecture mind you)
 
@KonradRudolph Yes, but the difference is that even if you do a poor job of architecture in a small project, it can still get done in a reasonable timeframe
It would perhaps, be a lot more difficult to debug
On a large-scale project, you don't even have the luxury of getting it done
 
Wanna take part in fun experiment #3?
 
@LuchianGrigore Shoot.
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph Oh, there you're terribly wrong. The problem is that projects do go beyond the critical size despite their architectural shortcomings and flaws.
 
Fun experiment #3: What's the weirdest bug you've had to reproduce & fix?
 
9:15 AM
@sbi That's one of the most common architectural flaws in small projects in my opinion: assuming it will stay small
 
@LuchianGrigore This one: connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/532584/… (see the posted workaround for the weirdness) (turned out to not be a bug in my code, which sucked)
 
@Neil Ha! I learned that the hard way in my pi-program thingy...
The hardest way possible actually.
 
@sbi Doesn’t that amount to the same? In my (limited) experience at least it does
 
sbi
IME, every major software project is based on several proof-of-concept-like pieces of software, once written by some developer to check whether something can be done, meant to be scrapped and then replaced by some soundly architectured and designed piece of code destined to scale. And those pieces got patched and nooks wielded onto it until oblivion, which was the way to "mature the project".
 
YAGNI helps to keep it small
 
9:17 AM
@Mysticial I think every programmer realizes that the hard way sooner or later
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you work for MS?
 
@LuchianGrigore No.
 
@Neil like they guy with intel compiler recenly. Do you even know how expensive it is?
 
@sbi How does the quote go? Make your program attempt knowing full and well you will scrap it entirely
 
@Neil Oh god yes! I do a lot of maintenance/enhancement work. A common response to a feature request 'I can't do it within any reasonable time/cost. The overall design will not support your requirement - it would have to be rewritten and retested from scratch'.
 
sbi
9:19 AM
@Neil Did you a word there or is it just too early for my brain to parse that?
 
@sbi "Attempt" is a noun in this case, sry.. I probably could have worded that better
 
@StackedCrooked SOPBIGNI, (some other poor bastard is gonna need it)
 
@MartinJames A strange trend I find when I write programs is that I'm constantly unsatisfied with programs I have written in the past
I can only assume that means I'm learning to write better programs
Though I could conceivably be writing worse programs too...
 
@LuchianGrigore There was a bug in the build and it turned out to be a bug in VS, so we had to work around it, not really "fix". Spent a lot of time on it, and my boss's jaw dropped when he saw me fixing it by manually editing one character in an automatically generated base64 string.
 
@Neil And you're right! Me too.
 
9:21 AM
Embarrassing even.. depending on how old it is
Though I have made the occasional gem. I was proud of it when I wrote it, and I'm proud of it now.
It doesn't happen often, but I get these moments where I can code anything.. I'm in the zone.. what I write is gold and beautifully written
I wish I could get in touch with that zone more often
 
@Neil Isn't that just prototyping?
 
Xeo
4
A: Return a value depending of type

Luchian GrigoreFirst off, you can't return anything because the function return type is void.(fixed) Second, you can specialize that function to act differently when Type is void: template<class Type> class MyClass { public: double getValue() { return _y; } pr...

^ I always wonder if this is actually allowed by the standard.
 
Why wouldn't it?
 
Xeo
Dunno, I remember reading that you're not allowed to define a function with a specialization or something
 
@Mysticial Bah, Google won't lend a hand today. I wish I could find that quote
 
9:24 AM
@MartinJames google doesn't know it
 
@StackedCrooked Not surprising - a despairing cry from a maintenance/enhancement developer <g>
 
@BartekBanachewicz you just wanna get to 2k :P There!
 
@LuchianGrigore well, I do ;) But this link was exactly to check if I didn't write some total BS there
apparently, I did -.-
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore A cow-worker once spent a whole evening trying to squash a bug that wouldn't disappear, no matter how hard he tried. After banging his head against that for hours, and when the two of us where the last ones left in the office, he came to me, questioning his sanity. I listened to the symptoms, looked at the code, and asked him to put a deliberate compiler error into it. When the thing compiled I asked him to check which file he compiles. Bingo.
I don't know how you can have been a programmer for several years without having ran into that problem and knowing to make such a sanity check before you continue tackling what you think the problem is. I guess he never forgave me for humiliating him by finding this out within 5mins after being asked to look at the problem.
 
Xeo
9:30 AM
@LuchianGrigore Okay, seems you can do it (§14.7.3/4). I always get confused with that
 
@sbi Hey, the same happened to me last month (I was the one finding out the issue).
 
@sbi happened to me once, but it wasn't a bug, but a compilation error. The guy was much more experienced than me, and had spent all morning on this (the header looked fine). He was including a header from a different location. Felt good! :D
 
Xeo
Ohey, LWS works again
 
@sbi "cow-worker" - nice...
 
user784668
@Mysticial copy-on-write worker
 
9:34 AM
@Mysticial I was suspicious about that term, but the poster makes it plain that the developer was male:)
 
@Xeo Wanna wager when it will go down again?
 
I CAN HAS EDIT EVRZTHINGY!
 
whoah. A lot of cowworkers
 
Can you lose priviliges?
 
9:36 AM
Woah... it's a real term.
 
@sbi That's the downside of working alone. We all make grossly stupid errors from time to time and some one else may spot it straightaway. Last month I spent half a day trying to fix a problem that did not exist:(
 
@MartinJames I've had those moments as well...
 
@LuchianGrigore Yes.
 
But at least I can say that the worst bug that I've ever run into couldn't have been avoided.
 
9:37 AM
@BartekBanachewicz not if someone... downvotes you...
>:)
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz No you can't.
 
Damn trolls. /cc Can you lose privileges?
 
Xeo
@LuchianGrigore We had some dynamic game system components which loaded and unloaded themselves into a list. The problem was, that even the component managing that list was inside it, and unloaded (aka deleted) itself before the list was truly empty. :)
 
@Mysticial Detail - the keypad did not work. The scope showed no scan pulses. After the half-day messing with the firmware, I found that I'd knocked the '*10' knob on the scope and the pulses were off-screen. The keypad had stopped because the connector was loose.
 
9:39 AM
@MartinJames lol
 
Xeo
Was hard to find that, as the game would only crash on exit when all components were unloaded
 
I can't remember any particularly bad examples of stupid things that made me spend a lot of time fixing.
 
hm how does reputation for edits after 2k work?
 
@Xeo Program crashes only on exit => swallow all exceptions, mask all signals.
@BartekBanachewicz It doesn't.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Meh, I'd rather fix the bug
Which I did
 
9:41 AM
The worst bug that I've encountered took 4 weeks to track down. Incurred over $4000 USD of hardware and hardware depreciation. It took 5 minutes to fix and another 8 days to confirm it was fixed.
 
Xeo
woah
 
user784668
The worst bug you've encountered is the one you haven't encountered yet.
 
@Mysticial You're really slow :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep. :)
 
@Fanael Oh, thanks for planting that thought in my head. I daren't do any work now in case I find it.
 
9:43 AM
$ [ false ] && echo yes || echo no
yes
what the …?!
 
Of the $4000 USD. About $1000 of it was from my own hardware - half of which came out of my own pocket. The remaining $3000 was someone else's hardware.
 
I thought I understood Bash :/
 
sbi
@MartinJames Of course, we all had such moments. I remember very well spending hours at a compiler error while I had no idea what the compiler wanted of me, until I realized the error was in some header, not in the source file the compiler barked at me. And of course, I have also once edited one file and compiled another.
But such silly things usually only happen once or twice to you, and when you've been a C++ programmer for, say, half a decade, you should have encountered them and know to check for that on mysterious errors.
@KonradRudolph Yeah you thought you understood bash, but actually it's the other way around: that shell bashes understanding.
 
@sbi ..and taht's an upside of working alone - nobody is going to make an aparrently innocuous change in a header that results in my build becoming a late entry in the 'Most Linker Error Messages' competition.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, and I forgot to say that it wasn't really a "bug" in my code either... That's what sucks - but at the same time it keeps me from banging my head against the wall because it couldn't have been avoided.
 
sbi
9:49 AM
The worst errors is changes in headers that compile just fine but will lead to linking errors in a code base that takes and hour to build. Those things can drive you nuts within one working day.
 
$ [ `false` ] && echo yes || echo no
no
@Konrad.
 
user784668
@sbi His problem is with test, not with bash.
 
false is not a special value, it's a command.
 
@sbi That's why you shouldn't put #includes in headers.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz What?
 
user784668
9:51 AM
@sbi Thou shan't because he said so.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz You're misunderstanding
Imagine a header with just void f(int); and a cpp with void f(int i){ ... }. From inside the cpp, you use f just fine and dandy, and from everywhere else too
 
sbi
@Xeo Also, he seems to be misunderstood. At least I hope so. Nobody could request this with a straight face.
 
@Xeo ok, and?
 
Xeo
Now you change the signature of f to void f(double) but forget to change the cpp. Inside of the cpp, you can use f still just fine and dandy, but from outside, you get a linker error
This has nothing to do with includes in headers
 
sbi
@Xeo That's not a problem, because all you need to do is to change the source file, recompile that, and re-link.
 
9:54 AM
How the heck do you forget something like that?
 
Xeo
@sbi Then I misunderstood what you meant. :P
 
@Xeo Well, #includes in headers can make even small codebase take hours to build. I think they aren't making full rebuilds every time
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes He is human.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't.
 
@Xeo well, you're not alone ;p
 
Xeo
9:55 AM
Because I use VA X for refactoring. :)
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, you were talking about build-times
 
sbi
@Xeo The problem is when you provide the wrong decoration for some function, and the thing doesn't link in the configuration where the app is broken into DLLs. Then you need to go back and change the header again, waiting yet another hour until you'll find out whether you got it right this time.
 
@Xeo This is why I sometimes prefer static member functions bundled in a struct over free functions. This gives you the error at compile time.
 
@sbi Yeah, humans seem to always forget important things.
 
If I don't have #includes in headers, how can I declare my stuff that references other stuff?
 
@Xeo Nobody ever asked what my comment was up to. @sbi said "taking an hour to build".
 
sbi
9:56 AM
5 mins ago, by sbi
@BartekBanachewicz What?
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz But you know, that doesn't mean it's the headers. Ever compiled Clang? haaa....
 
sbi
^ Is that not a question?
 
@Xeo you bet I did.
@sbi Okey, I read it more like What.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, include pollution is bad, and often accounts for the majority of outrageous build times, but requiring to never include any header from within another header seems so way over the top, I don't even know how anybody could take that serious.
Besides that, the project in question had 4MLoC.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol, that makes sense ;) thanks
 
9:58 AM
That's small, right?
 
WTH
I can't delete more than 5 posts per day?
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore Lamp posts?
 

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