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3:00 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Toxic" IT culture/men effect?
Yes, I think it is BS on the grounds of my experience.
Also, based on the numbers.
Because I do not see how the IT that girls that have never worked in could influence the girls' choices.
 
@wilx Did you choose your career in a vacuum?
People hear from other people
If people tell you "this is an awesome thing to work with", or "people treat you like shit if you work there", that has an influence
Of course people are influenced by other people's experiences when choosing a career
 
@jalf I have never heard of anything related to work place culture before I chose IT.
 
I'm just saying boys have way more awesome toys than girls.
 
@jalf Not really. If the answer is (hypothetically) "because in their genes women are pushed more towards jobs that require social skills, probably due to maternity genes", then there you have it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel They can certainly enjoy the toys they have. :)
 
3:03 PM
It got you somewhere; and in this hypothetical scenario, you even realize it's not a problem at all.
 
2 hours ago, by wilx
But I have yet to actually hear about actual cases of whatever problems you or @jalf see. (Hi there.)
 
@wilx Yes you had. It might just have been from popular culture, but you certainly had
And more to the point, if the culture had been bad for people like you, you would almost certainly have heard of it.
 
Wait, how many black people are there in the IT industry?
 
@Jefffrey You can replace the bit in quotes in your message with any other potential explanation and it doesn't stop making sense.
 
@Jefffrey Oh boy, biological essentialism. That's a whole other can of worms.
 
3:05 PM
Is our toxic enviroment also pushing them out? Oh dear, that's not going to be good for business.
 
@Jefffrey IRTA how many bartek people are there in the IT industry?
 
@jalf No, I have not. I am 35 and I did not have Internet until like sophomore year of HS. And then, I was really not interested in this kind of discussion or information. Hell, I did not even know about feminists existing then.
 
@BartekBanachewicz One too many.
I'm kidding, I love you.
<3
 
@EtiennedeMartel Hey, you stole that one. I was going to say it. :c
 
@Jefffrey Eat it.
 
3:05 PM
 
@wilx Who's talking about feminists?
 
@EtiennedeMartel d'aw
 
@jalf I am talking to one right now.
 
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-women-tech-20150222-story.html#page=1
http://fortune.com/2014/10/02/women-leave-tech-culture/
http://www.itworld.com/article/2887556/are-women-leaving-the-technology-industry.html
 
LOL
 
user1804599
3:07 PM
I'll make a tool that checks that branches have features that are in the bug tracker.
 
@wilx That's great, but that's not what I said. If young white men could expect to be treated like shit in the IT industry, then you, as a young white man, would have heard about it before you chose your career. And if not that, then you would have discovered it during your IT education. And failing that, you would have encountered it at your first job. And then you would have told other young white men about it
 
user1804599
so that you cannot create branch feature/poop without a poop feature in the bug tracker
 
I'm just saying that people share their bad experiences with others
People try to warn each others off of getting burnt
 
user1804599
and you cannot create feature/poop/fix/42 without issue 42 in the bug tracker associated with the poop feature
 
@Jefffrey Why is that funny?
 
3:07 PM
@EtiennedeMartel giggle
 
Oh boi. We are only 14.x percent in the nursing industry. We should fight for our rights.
7
 
"African American" is not an ethnicity.
 
@Jefffrey Those numbers are growing.
 
And why is Women categorised alongside other races?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It makes it look like "women" is a race.
 
3:08 PM
As to "not seing whatever problems we see", it's jsut a Google away. Type these words into Google: "Women leaving tech"
 
It's just perpetuating the myth that those particular people are "special" or "different". Really offensive.
 
user1804599
and you cannot merge without setting the ticket as resolved in bug tracker, or automatically setting it as resolved with a hook
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Why not?
 
@Jefffrey You're saying that like it's a joke, but improving how more traditionally-feminine careers are seen and balanced is an issue to be addressed
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because it is not about ethnicity but interesting categories?
 
3:09 PM
We are kicked out from Personal and laundry services too? Oh dear no.
 
18. Employed persons by detailed industry, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity
WTF? Deja vu here.
 
Only 7.x percent for Private households? Are you kidding me? What kind of toxic environment is that?
 
Gotta dash for my daughter. BBL
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The "American" part of "African American" does not describe a genetic offshoot, but a geosocial offshoot.
@wilx And why are those "interesting"? Why are white men not "interesting"?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ethnicity is not (all) about genetics.
 
user1804599
3:11 PM
Such a tool would be terrific.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Stop bringing facts into this
 
user1804599
It would keep people from fucking up the branches horribly like they do now.
 
@wilx try adding the words "leaky pipeline" to the search terms too. Alternatively, read about the #yesallwomen hashtag that was doing the rounds on twitter a year or two ago. There's lots of information out there. We don't have sit and guess at whether any woman ever has ever felt that the tech industry was toxic towards women. :)
 
argggghhhh two YouTube videos I recently favourited have been deleted already
I wish they told us the titles at least
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You criminal.
 
3:12 PM
@Jefffrey I don't know what "private households" means here, but yes, there are several jobs where men are stigmatised.
 
@EtiennedeMartel eh?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Almost all of them. Being a white man is tough in PC 3.0 times.
 
Where's the programming industry at?
Software publishers?
 
Yeah, men don't have it that easy, so let's do nothing and make sure everyone has a miserable experience.
 
@Jefffrey In any case, if your point is that our societies have it even worse than just this one issue, I will agree.
It won't make me stop caring about this one issue, though.
 
I consider the option that there might not be a problem at all
 
3:15 PM
ah man I still fucking love that
 
@Jefffrey Me too, and then I'm done three minutes later, because that's easy to consider. The other option takes me a lot more time.
 
ITT
> I like this statistic
No one even cringes out loud anymore
 
I really don't understand why you consider anything that is not near 50%-50%, for any given partition of the population, a problem.
2
 
And I'm not going to bother with straw men.
 
Sometimes you just have to grow a pair and admit the problem of sexism in STEM exists
 
3:18 PM
Take African Americans. Apparently they are barely 3.7% in the Software publishers industry. That's very very below average there.
Is this a problem? I say probably not.
 
@Jefffrey How can you say that?
 
Because he considered the option.
 
Because in my very limited experience, having class mates that are black, I don't see people being toxic towards them.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Racist.
 
@Jefffrey Yep, great for them.
 
3:19 PM
Does this means that they are not pushed out everywhere? Of course not. But I have yet to hear someone claiming that they feel pushed out.
 
@Jefffrey And here we have the core of it: just because you don't see a problem, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
@Jefffrey Oh god, this again.
 
user1804599
Only a very small fraction of the software developers in the world are me. I see that as a serious problem.
 
You are not statistically significant.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Never said that.
 
3:20 PM
That's exactly what wilx said 2 hours ago.
Except he said it about women.
 
user1804599
Because it means that almost all software developers are terrible at software development. :P
 
What's the name of that? Argument from ignorance?
Sampling bias?
 
So, wait. Maybe I know where the problem lies. Do you think that there's a problem with black people in our industry until proven otherwise, or do you think there's not a problem until proven otherwise?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cherry picking, I think.
 
Selection bias.
@Jefffrey Neither.
I don't want to play "name the fallacy".
 
3:21 PM
Ah, if only things were black or white.
 
(False dichotomy)
 
Life would be simpler.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You are the only one playing it right now.
Also I'm not committing the fallacy you are referring to. Because I'm not saying that since I did not experience the problem, then the problem doesn't exist. But thanks for trying anyway.
And I'll never be able to spell fallacy correct, so don't even bother.
 
@Jefffrey Why did you mention it then? I'll give you that in that case it's not a fallacy, but then it is not worthy of mention.
 
3:24 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because you are accusing me of it?
 
@EtiennedeMartel my manager thinks that way. "I don't see the problem -> ergo there is NO problem"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes mhm
 
@Jefffrey No, I meant why you mentioned your lack of experience of the problem.
 
To show that I have yet to see someone complaining about it.
 
Well, you did it successfully.
 
3:24 PM
That being said...
 
And I don't invent problems unless I see them.
 
You know, saying "I don't know enough about the issue, and therefore I shall not talk about it" is a perfectly valid thing to say.
@Jefffrey Until you see them?
 
Jeff has a point in that we should react to actual complaints
 
@EtiennedeMartel No, unless you see them.
 
I kinda feel that people might well be blowing the problem out of proportion
if someone around me says that he/she feels bad about the way people treat him/her, that's a particular problem that can be addressed and solved
OTOH, if there's a bunch of people shouting on the internets "do something", there's hardly any constructive outcome
 
3:26 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Wait, why is someone saying it around you and someone saying it on the Internet different?
 
user1804599
 
I wish I was as able as Bartek at explaining this thing. I honestly do.
 
@Jefffrey Are you mocking him?
 
> I honestly do.
 
Yeah, that can be a strong mocking device.
 
3:28 PM
No, I'm not mocking him. I'm well aware of my deficiencies at explaining things.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but when people do that, they're being told they're overreacting.
 
@Jefffrey Ok, just checking, because I don't think he's doing a great job.
 
I do.
 
Well, if he's explaining it well, then yeah, it's a very poor point.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Sometimes you have to grow a pair and admit that the problem is you are making wild assumptions. I've seen sexism in STEM in some countries. In others, it doesn't exist. In those countries it is replaced by a lack of female interest in STEM. Now, one might partially blame gender roles for this, and I might even get behind you on that. But it's not that women are being rejected for STEM jobs because they're women. It's just not.
But to point this out is itself akin to "sexism" apparently so whatever.
 
3:31 PM
Sorry, gotta go. Will read the replies later.
 
I can't wait for 20 years to pass and this ridiculous fad of making wild, illogical claims that entirely misrepresent anyway flaky data will have stopped.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's not a problem specific to sexism, is it?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes heh
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I'm saying there are multiple problems with how modern societies treat humans.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes On the internet can still be "around me". I was mostly talking about "activists" speaking for a lot of people.
 
3:32 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I've only seen that happen when the individual was overreacting. When they were playing the victim despite actually not being a victim of anything.
You can't say "ugh world is shit whenever someone claims to be a victim someone suggests that maybe they're not a victim ugh world is shit"
Like, maybe they're actually not, y'know?
It's that possibility that PC zealots just simply cannot accept for some reason. They seem to think that it's akin to denying sexism entirely. Which it isn't.
I guess most people think in absolutes and that's the real problem.
tl;dr peoeple are stoopid
 
I suppose what can be broadcasted to the mass public are the more general statements: "be more open to what people around you say and feel"
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Eh
 
> error: 'template<class CharT, class Traits, class Alloc> constexpr const annex::functors::basic_widen<CharT, Traits, Alloc>& annex::basic_widen<CharT, Traits, Alloc>' is not a function template
orly? error triggered by i.info.base_name.template basic_widen<CharT>()
 
Why use an open-source license for your program? One reason I could think of is that others can't modify your program and distribute it under their name (unless the original was under a copyleft license). So that's a good reason. But then the question becomes: Why use a copyleft license?
 
elimination of sexism would come as a natural consequence without the social fuckup we're experiencing today
people don't like being told what to do in general
 
3:35 PM
yeah
 
Is is forbidden to start the name of a macro with a number?
 
#define 123a yes
error: macro names must be identifiers
 
@Mr.kbok No. It's just not possible.
 
3:36 PM
@DonLarynx because it makes it certain you won't be held liable for the software
 
@Mr.kbok ^ It's not forbidden so much as fundamentally impossible, since names do not start with numbers.
 
Okay
 
@BartekBanachewicz Touche
with the tilde on top of the e
 
Just read the BSD text
 
You could have just tried that trivially, though.
 
3:37 PM
@DonLarynx Wait, what? Those sentences don't make sense together. I think you have a misunderstanding of what "open-source" means.
 
I have a very peculiar issue
 
> IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.
 
Touchẽ
 
I want to generate a constant expression from a token in the form a = 5
 
that basically forbids the users from going to court against you vOv
 
3:37 PM
This thing builds fine through VS, but not on the command-line with msbuild.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes open-source means it's free for anyone to use, but Bartek answered my Q
 
WTF
@DonLarynx No, he didn't.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well what's the answer? Cause if I don't use a license, I can be held liable for the software.
 
If you can waive the warranty at all, you don't need a copyleft license.
 
Another thing is the advertising
 
3:38 PM
@DonLarynx No, you can't. If you don't license your software to someone, that someone cannot use it.
 
@DonLarynx If you don’t use a license, anyone using your program is in the wrong.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nothing you can do will make it certain won't be held liable for the software. You can write a license that denies liability, but a court could (for example) deem it unconscionable and hold you liable anyway. That's probably not likely on something you give away, but possible nonetheless. In any case, status as open source or not (or copyleft or not) is pretty much irrelevant to liability.
 
@BartekBanachewicz If valid. There could be implicit warranties and liabilities.
@JerryCoffin Was such a clause ever tested in some court?
 
@DonLarynx And yeah, that's not quite what open-source means either (for a number of possible definitions).
It usually implies access to source code and some kind of freedom to modify and redistribute it.
 
3:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes You're right. I'm reading the docs right now
 
Just freedom to use is just called "free", I guess. (as in "free beer")
 
public interface IAnal {}
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Depends on what you mean by "such a clause". There have certainly been cases where some clauses in software licenses have been held unenforceable because the court deemed them unconscionable. I don't know of any where it was a clause denying liability on software that was being given way though, no. Then again, I don't know of such a case having been brought to court in the first place.
 
@JerryCoffin Cool, thanks.
Why would __LITTLE_ENDIAN__ be defined when building in VS but not when invoking msbuild directly?
I'm all out of ideas.
 
Xeo
hahaha
 
3:44 PM
Maybe I can invoke devenv for a build without launching a GUI? Hahahahahahah I'm so funny.
 
@LucDanton Actually, rather the opposite is true. If you don't specify otherwise, then you're basically just selling software about like (for example) a publisher would sell a book, and normal copyright law applies. Most software licenses are written because software publishers consider those too liberal, so they write more restrictive licenses.
 
WAIT
I actually can.
Not funny.
 
Xeo
lol
 
> Use the following command line switches to perform the described task. These command-line switches do not display the IDE.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes For 29 years (and +19 years to the counter if you die before it runs out), unless [US] then it's allowed to be reused under "fair use".
 
3:48 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes msbuild
@R.MartinhoFernandes or that
 
sanity check please, looks like Clang accepts the program.
 
I think clang is right.
5 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Why would __LITTLE_ENDIAN__ be defined when building in VS but not when invoking msbuild directly?
 
@JerryCoffin When isn’t it normal copyright law? I also didn’t bring up selling ftr.
I don’t see how you can sell a software product without offering a license. It seems like a non-starter to me.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Seems like bogus behaviour on gcc's side
 
This is crazy isn’t it?
 
3:51 PM
@LucDanton You own copyright over >18 lines ("legally significant" as defined by GNU licenses) of code. So the opposite (<19 lines) it is.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wha I what
 
Ah, ffs doesn't work for Express.
Argh.
 
@Unihedro wtf you on about? when was this about lines?
 
Huh?
 
3:53 PM
@MarcoA. Are they mocking me?
9 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Why would __LITTLE_ENDIAN__ be defined when building in VS but not when invoking msbuild directly?
 
@LucDanton Whatever you write that is legally significant is protected by copyright.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pull requests welcome.
 
Please don't look at the Sun today. It's still dangerous even if 10% is visible. The same goes for the Mail and the Express. #eclipse2015
4
 
I just gave you the definition.
 
@Unihedro Paraguay is a country in South America.
 
3:54 PM
Argh..
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I didn't follow the topic but you might try to check it out for yourself I suppose
 
Great. Now the build succeeded because when given bad command line arguments, the Express edition just shows a dialog and quits with a success error code.
 
@Unihedro Okay just to make sure: I asked 'when isn’t it normal copyright', not 'when is it normal copyright'. Those two questions mean different things.
 
@LucDanton Eh. When you license copyrighted material, you're granting permission (most of the time) to users (to be defined).
 
@LucDanton Selling vs. giving away matters in terms of liability, but has little effect otherwise. Point is that copyright (for example) allows me to read a book, then give it away and somebody else can read it, and most commercial software vendors consider that unacceptable, so their licenses require you to agree not to do that.
 
3:56 PM
@Unihedro Paraguay has a total land area of 406,752 km².
 
youtube has removed the option to NOT autoplay through a playlist. wankers.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Blame @Mysticial
 
@Mysticial fu
and show me the names of deleted videos FFS
 
@LucDanton That's awesome!
 
I've been doing a bit of research and it looks like YouTube have systematically closed every single loophole people had found to get that information
which implies an active effort to hide said information
which is really bloody irritating
 
3:58 PM
@JerryCoffin I don’t think 'selling' and 'giving' make any (legal) sense if they don’t come with a license, as applied to software. (And to be clear I said nothing about copies of the software either.)
 
@LucDanton It is a bit difficult in some ways--in particular, copyright generally makes it illegal to copy something without permission, but installing software generally involves copying it from the distribution media to the users hard drive (or SSD, etc.)
 
I stand by what I said.
 
@Mysticial I'm srs btw :(
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, the law is awesome!
 

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