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2:00 PM
However, it seems to me that amount of females in software development industry correlates with IT related masters degree graduates in USA.
 
Those stats seem to validate the chart that jalf posted.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Indeed.
 
@wilx Those things all link to the same. Intentional?
 
user1804599
Is Subversion good?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sorry, fixed.
So, what is the cause and what is the effect is the question here.
Is it canaries killing environment in IT or is it there is simply smaller amount of suitable candidates that are female?
 
2:03 PM
> Sometimes you try to freeze time 'til the slots are a blur of spinning wheels
 
Now, you can try to convince me that IT's "toxic" environment influences girls choices and habits and that lead them away from even studying IT.
@райтфолд It is usable.
@райтфолд Just hope that you will never have to use it through HTTPS only with huge repositories full of binary data. (Though the experience might be different now than it was like 7 years ago.)
 
@wilx It's certainly not just that, no.
@wilx SSH master race.
 
lastampa.it/2014/08/19/economia/… -> translated: "in Italy there are more startup incubators than actual startup companies". There must be something terribly wrong in all this...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That one isn't the same, though, because of the lunar cycles. I also think that the eclipse is utterly irrelevant, but this one is a bit different.
 
@MarcoA. lol
 
2:14 PM
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If I understand correctly our local SJWs, that is what they say.
@MarcoA. Well, it is Italy...
 
@wilx What's that supposed to mean?
 
user1804599
14
 
@Jefffrey It is weird country that managed to live with huuuge national debt for several decades, whose people voted for Berlusconi several times, that is well known for its mafia,...
@Jefffrey Also, my prejudice. :D
 
you make that sound like it's different to every other Western country
 
user1804599
2:18 PM
@wilx Does that mean it's good or bad?
 
What does good and bad mean?
 
@райтфолд What @Jefffrey just said.
 
@wilx the latter isn't an explanation though. Then it becomes necessary to ask why there is a smaller amount of suitable candidates :)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
@jalf Because there is less of graduates.
 
2:20 PM
@wilx And why are there fewer graduates?
 
Because women prefer other departments
 
because men are sexist pigs that make women feel bad about pursuing STEM careers?
 
@jalf Because the girls that have never worked in an IT "toxic" company are somehow deterred from studying IT?
 
@райтфолд It means you'll have to define what you mean by "good" and "bad" for anybody to give a meaningful answer. It's good enough that tens of thousands of people have used it for a decade or more. Git (for the obvious example) is enough better at enough things that a lot have switched to it over the last few years. That adds enough pain that there are a fair number of articles and such pointing out how Svn is perfectly adequate for many of them, and Git is often more pain than gain.
 
@wilx Sure, my point is that the details of the "somehow" become quite significant then
 
2:22 PM
you mean, it's like women who do work at IT companies could simply tell them what it's like and influence them that way?
 
otherwise you're just saying "the reason there are so few women in IT is that few women decide to go into IT"
which doesn't really explain anything
 
@райтфолд whaddya mean. either keep working on the feature branch, or make a new feature branch for "change feature X to do Y"
 
I took a part in wikipedia talk :proud:
 
@Puppy In that case, why would they mention it at all?
 
I used the phrase outright wrong
 
2:23 PM
mention what, the next eclipse?
 
@Puppy No other Western country voted for Berlusconi :P
@Puppy Yes. "The next one is in 2026, so this one is a once-in-a-generation opportunity" makes sense maybe in the 1980s.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes True, but they did vote for David Cameron, Tony Abbott(?) and George Bush
@R.MartinhoFernandes They're the media, it's their job to talk, they just can't tell when to stop
 
user1804599
@wilx he didn't say a thing
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes pff, there's this thing every day where one side of the earth causes a total eclipse of the sun!
 
@jalf, initially, before you jumped in, we were talking about this tweet: twitter.com/tauriqmoosa/status/576634303326605312
@райтфолд He asked what did you consider good or bad.
 
2:26 PM
why the fuck do we have to write private methods in a class interface
what's the point of that
 
what language
 
@BartekBanachewicz What?
 
say I'm in .cpp file implementing a class
 
because the compiler has the right to do things like change memory layout order depending on the private methods
 
2:27 PM
I need a helper that has access to this
 
and because doing otherwise would require multiple passes over the definition which would be so much effort to implement
 
user1804599
@wilx I see.
 
it's annoying.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks, that was helpful.
 
user1804599
I want something that works well for small teams.
 
2:28 PM
I could imagine using only public fields to overcome that
 
user1804599
Like, three or four people.
 
@wilx Yes? I'm not sure how that invalidates what I just said
 
user1804599
Or one person.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Can't you just use a specific abstract class for the interface?
 
that way the implementation of the class can freely use the members
 
Xeo
2:28 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Write a free function that gets this passed vOv
 
@wilx FWIW, I think that's a pretty good analogy. (Truth has nothing to do with being good analogies: a canary in a coal mine is a great analogy for the situation where women are leaving the industry because of a toxic environment regardless of the reality of the situation)
 
meh, it's really not a big deal to change the header a tiny fraction
 
Or otherwise PIMPL
Or I don't remember the name
 
@Puppy it triggers rebuild of shitload of files and requires me to change 2 places instead of one for no real reason. Also pollutes the header for anyone reading it with irrelevant implementation details
 
user3010322
@BartekBanachewicz I don't quit understand it, but I will soon.
 
Xeo
2:29 PM
Or friend struct my_private_helper;, and define that struct in the .cpp with the methods you want.
 
@Jefffrey yep, that
 
Xeo
(static functions)
 
@Xeo oh, that actually sounds nice
I like that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz None of those are particularly serious. Annoying, yes, unnecessary, yes, OH MY GOD THE HUGE MANATEE, no.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Just out of curiosity, why are you doing this? Are you actually going to switch implementations?
 
2:30 PM
@Xeo I'd need to pass this to those helpers explicitely, though... mmm, could I inherit from such a helper using CRTP?
 
Xeo
@Puppy Propagating recompiles can be a very "serious" thing, unfortunately. :<
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wonder about the "leaving" part. That is why I commented about the chart @jalf pasted was only in percentages. It might very well be that absolute numbers of workers of both sexes in IT are rising but women's numbers are just rising slower. This is also why commented that I could not find historical data similar to bls.gov/cps/cpsaat18.htm. I simply do not know / have enough evidence either way.
 
@Jefffrey no, I just don't want to add helpers to the class definition in header
 
I think you are complicating your life for no reason.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Oh noez, an explicit *this :P
 
2:31 PM
@wilx I was just chiming in about the "is it a good analogy?" bit you had with sehe.
 
@wilx but having the absolute numbers wouldn't answer that either. The numbers could stay the same, while women were leaving en masse, being replaced by new ones joining, and leaving a few years later :)
I agree it would be interesting information to have though
 
@Xeo bearable, yea
@Jefffrey it's not really complicated.
 
Ok
 
I'll write a SSCCE with Xeo's solution and you'll see
 
@jalf Absolute historical numbers would show trends and might very well invalidate the "leaving" part.
 
user3010322
2:32 PM
FURROVINE COMPILES WITH OPENGL! \o/
 
@wilx No. Not unless they have distinct numbers for leaving and joining.
 
good job
 
user3010322
... But nothing runs. <_>
 
@ThePhD when will it compile with Vulkan
 
@ThePhD just add clang! :p
 
user3010322
2:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I don't have access to any Vulkan API.
 
@райтфолд IMO, for one person, the big difference between SVN and Git is that Git makes branching really cheap, and handles merging much better. That does carry a cost in extra complexity though.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are going to fight over the definition of "leaving" right now?
 
user3010322
@melak47 Not until I can figure out how to get the intrinsic header in properly.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz FWIW, I think Boost...something uses that. Boost.Python maybe? They got a helper with static functions that take a T& self. I think I stumbled over that when reading through the source.
 
@ThePhD it's easy - just add it as an <IncludePath> to the .props files in the LLVM install dir
 
2:34 PM
@wilx No, I'm pretty sure we all agree on that. I'm just saying that the numbers you ask for don't support any conclusion about the matter.
 
@ThePhD then the clang dir is in that include path list before the VS dir, and #include <intrin.h> includes the clang one
 
user3010322
@melak47 Works for me. :D
 
Finally I can show everyone how much I suck when I forget a comma or I write some syntactic nonsense in C++: asciinema.org
 
@ThePhD also, I hijacked/swapped out the contents of the LLVM install dir with the crap from my own build
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes My understanding of "women are leaving IT" was that "women are leaving IT for non-IT jobs and thus absolute number of women in IT is decreasing."
 
2:36 PM
@wilx Well, it is kind of important. If we're talking about individuals leaving, then the numbers you ask for wouldn't help. They'd just show that people who leave get replaced. If we're talking about women as a getting less of a stake in the tech industry, then I'd argue that the percentages are relevant
@wilx but they wouldn't decrease if new women are hired as the ones who leave, leave
 
@ThePhD although - 64 bit builds didn't work, at least with the revision I checked out.
and debugging is shit.
 
user3010322
@melak47 :((
 
user3010322
@melak47 :((((((((((
 
@jalf "Less of a stake" is IMHO not "leaving." :(
 
maaaybe wait for 3.7 to actually be sortof finished :/
 
2:37 PM
@wilx It's a consequence of it if men are not leaving while they are.
 
@jalf let's just say they might not like to be asked to freeze their eggs to be more productive nbcnews.com/news/us-news/…
 
There is always some turnaround. People leave jobs for different carries, both men and women.
 
@wilx Agreed. "Leaving" applies to the individual
 
@wilx Yes, but the turnaround seems to be different for men and women.
 
2:37 PM
Which means that the total number is also irrelevant. What would be interesting is the average time women stay in the tech industry
 
OK, at this point, without the turnaround numbers, the discussion is only hypothetical.
 
Everyone quits sooner or later, obviously
 
user3010322
thread.wait in destructors in evil. ;~;
 
@Xeo funny
@Puppy I wonder why do you think the implementation of what I wanted in the compiler would be so hard if you can do it like I did above.
 
But does one gender tend to quit sooner than the other? Does one gender tend to quit in order to retire, while another tends to quit in order to take up a new career in a different field?
 
Xeo
2:38 PM
It's basically pimpl without impl-specific state
 
@wilx Nah, that there's a difference in turnaround is clear since the ratio is decreasing. What is left to show is whether that is caused by more leavings or fewer joins.
@MarcoA. That looks cool. Hate the name, though.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I could argue that more men entered IT schools and then jobs than women in absolute numbers (because they are probably more interested in IT than women or for whatever reasons) than women. But that does not sound like men's fault to me, if it is true that men are more interested in IT than women. Not necessarily, anyway. It sounds to me (analogy incoming) like blaming women primary or pre-school teachers that there are not enough men primary and pre-school teachers, or something.
 
@wilx If your argument involves "for whatever reasons", then it doesn't really get us anywhere
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Without actual numbers I can say both women and men numbers in IT are rising but men's numbers are accelerating.
@jalf The point of that is that neither of us actually knows.
 
@wilx But only one of us pretends that it explains the issue
"It's not that there is a problem at all, it's just caused by unknown factor"
 
2:42 PM
@wilx Yes, men's numbers are accelerating because men are joining much faster than they leave but women not so much. That's a difference in turnaround.
 
@jalf Again with the "I know what you are thinking"?
 
The only woman in my team is my N+2
 
@wilx No, this is what you said
You posited the explanation that "men are probably more interested in IT for whatever reason"
 
@Xeo BTW you could instance the helper class as a bonus, that way you can also add private variables,
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz and that is pimpl.
 
2:43 PM
welp
 
@wilx I don't know what you're thinking. I know what you said. And what you said was that you could argue that the issues just because of "whatever reason"
 
@jalf You have missed "or" there. Though I edited later.
 
I always thought it's supposed to be Implementation* pImpl;
 
@jalf Missing verb.
@wilx FWIW, if you didn't want to bring relevance to that particular explanation, you could have just said "(for whatever reasons)" without bringing it up.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz It has to be a pointer, because you don't know the size of the implementation (if you can add private members)
 
2:45 PM
@wilx I skipped the or because it weakened your argument even further. I thought it was a typo. With the 'or', your argument is literally "for whatever reason"
"It could be that men are more interested in IT, or it could be whatever else"
 
Xeo
(Or how did you imagine "instantiating" the class? Inside of every method?)
 
@Xeo ah right
@Xeo nah you're right
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The "because they are probably more interested in IT than women" is my opinion. The "or for whatever reasons" is my admitting I do not actually know. I am being honest.
 
@wilx Come on, dude, don't do what you just accused jalf of doing.
 
@wilx No, we are pointing out that "I do not actually know" explains precisely nothing
 
2:46 PM
@wilx I'm trying to help you pose your argument better.
 
We're not saying anything controversial
 
If you're going to respond to that with attacks on my character, I'll just leave you with the poor arguments.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes: I actually got confused to whom I was replying.
 
Let me recap: some people claim that women leave IT because the environment is toxic. You say "from the numbers we've seen here in this chat so far, it could be that fewer women enter IT. Perhaps this happens for whatever reason". If we don't know what "whatever reason" is, then we don't know if this happens because of the toxic environment
 
@jalf is trying to frame me.
 
2:48 PM
@wilx Do you actually know what that word means?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes: My apologies.
 
We're programmers, yes? We know logic, yes? Can we agree that when you say "x or y", only one of the two terms has to be true for the expression as a whole to be true?
 
@jalf Yes?
 
Can we agree that "men are just more interested in IT than women are" is one possible reason why more men than women might go into an IT education?
 
@jalf Yes, it seems.
 
2:51 PM
Can we agree that "for whatever reason" is basically shorthand for "for one of all possible reasons"?
 
lol
 
So when you say "because men are more interested in IT than women are, or for whatever reason", it can be simplified to just "for whatever reason"?
 
I give you that if we are talking binary computer logic.
 
"It could be this reason, or it could be one of all possible reasons, including the one I just mentioned"
@wilx :p
 
I do not grant you that or the meaning "or" in the context of English and this discussion
 
2:53 PM
That sentence is confusing.
 
@jalf Why does it have to be a problem?
 
@wilx Assuming I managed to parse that sentence correctly, then I must have misunderstood your earlier statement
You are saying that "I could argue that more men entered IT schools and then jobs than women in absolute numbers (because they are probably more interested in IT than women or for whatever reasons)" is different from "I could argue that more men entered IT schools and then jobs than women in absolute numbers (for whatever reasons)"?
 
lol the genderism discussion still going on; so glad I'm not in it
 
@wilx Right, but that doesn't really change anything
 
2:55 PM
"It could be X or anything else" is the same as "it could be anything" except for the fact that it brings prominence to X for no reason.
 
You're still saying "X is because of Y for whatever reason"
With an added side order of "maybe it's Y, but that's my gut feeling and not something I know for sure".
 
oh pardon me, I thought it was a discussion about genderism not mathematical logic
 
The problem is, if the explanation is "men are more interested in IT than women are", then we have to ask "so why is that the case?". And if the explanation is "for whatever reason" then we have to ask "so what is the reason?"
In neither case does it really get us anywhere
 
@jalf Indeed!!!!
 
anyway, I've gotta run. People are talking about going for beers
 
2:58 PM
I don't get this. On one machine, this project builds fine. One another it seems __LITTLE_ENDIAN__ is not defined.
I don't know where that is meant to come from, as it's only used by a third-party lib.
 
56 mins ago, by wilx
So, what is the cause and what is the effect is the question here.
 
Does VS define it?
@wilx FWIW, it seemed like at first you were dismissing the effect.
 

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