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12:02 AM
@Veritas "Word + VBA as an IDE" It's also called "The bored bureaucrat's dish" :)
 
12:13 AM
i'm trying to find a c++ internship for high school students in new york. why so hard? ;_;
 
@Blob Because all the high students are in Colorado?
 
@JerryCoffin Hey I hear it’s happening in other places too :)
 
@LucDanton Undoubtedly (Amsterdam anyone?)
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked @Mysticial Btw, did you know that UBW Season 2 apparently starts next Saturday? :D
 
@Xeo Yeah, you suck.
 
Xeo
12:22 AM
What. Why. I didn't do anything this time ;__;
 
@Xeo Cool!
Next Saturday does not mean today, right?
 
I thought when you guys said IAnal earlier, you were saying you were anal-retentive.
 
Xeo
nope
28th
 
Death Parade ends next week.
RIP.
 
Xeo
So does Aldnoah
 
12:23 AM
@Rapptz Nice one.
 
Xeo
Pretty hyped for tomorrow's episode
 
all enums, by concept, are final right?
 
Fuck Slaine.
 
Xeo
haha
Yoru no Yatterman is going to end soon, too, I think
 
Haven't seen that one yet.
Are you watching Assassination Classroom?
 
Xeo
12:27 AM
ye
But I've also caught up to the current manga chapter a while ago, within 2 days :D
Not watching much else this season, except for JoJo
 
"hello shooting star" been playing in my head today
I should catch up with Jojo.
Stardust Crusaders seems to be good.
 
@chmod711telkitty "An enum can't be final, because under the hood compiler generates subclasses for each enum entry."
 
@chmod711telkitty In consequence they are, because there's no mechanism to inherit and extend them. Though final isn't the right term to describe their nature.
 
Where's Bartek's draw?
Wait did Bartek draw the themes yet?
Does no one no?
 
@Cinch Know won noes.
 
12:41 AM
But seriously where are the themes.
 
@Cinch Haskell?
 
Lol I should make a game about Haskell.
It'll be LRiO vs. Bartek RPG with programming language spells.
 
What's a good buffer size for streambuffers
 
cheers
 
12:55 AM
Hm...
 
@Cinch What themes?
Oh the game jam
 
@Jefffrey Yeah man.
 
So apparantly the Game Jam is going to be between 7am and 1pm for me.
 
better get up early then!
 
1:01 AM
Yes I will get up at 6:99am
 
In SquareMatrix class: explicit SquareMatrix(int dimension = 1); is apparently taking in double and float as parameters. WTF?
 
You can add explicit SquareMatrix(double) = delete; and similarly for float.
 
lol apparently Niebler concepts don't work with non-movable types.
 
Interesting.
So explicit is used to stop implicit conversion of types to an object?
i.e. useFoo(42) <--- Foo obj <--- Foo::Foo(int a);
 
Yes.
 
1:06 AM
for people on linux; if you have multi monitors, the multiple desktops seems wonky? or do i not understand how to use them? I was expecting each monitor to be on its on set of 4 desktops and the ctrl+alt+arrow shortcut to move only the desktop containing the currently focused window
 
I didn't even know implicit conversion existed.
 
You wouldn't be able to do SquareMatrix yourMatrix = 4; @Cinch
 
@Cinch Have you ever written something like double blah = …; double foo = blah / 2;?
 
Official term for implicit constructor is converting constructor.
 
@LucDanton yes?
 
1:06 AM
2 is an int.
 
I thought that was just the operator.
like operator=(float f, int i) or something.
 
There is no / operator that takes a double and an int.
 
And 2. isn't! Welcome to C++.
 
I know 2 is an int I just thought it was just automatically casting first or something.
I didn't know it initialized a temp.
 
Cast notation does create temporaries where required.
 
1:08 AM
@LucDanton Oh, I get it. 0 is an ant, 1 is an ent, 2 is an int, ...
 
@LucDanton There is if you believe in yourself.
 
@Rapptz What’s up with that?
 
Temporaries are only temporary.
 
@LucDanton He does auto requires_(T t) instead of auto requires_(T&& t)
 
@StackedCrooked ... unless you bind them to a reference, and only if that binding corresponds to certain restrictions.
@Rapptz lol
 
1:10 AM
Oh that’s fine with non-moveable. It does imply Destructible though, which is why I don’t do it.
True story! You can declare and define functions which you can’t ever pass arguments to.
 
The call site uses std::declval<T>() iirc.
 
@LucDanton I wanna see that.
 
@Columbo []{ for (;;) sleep(1); }(); // eternal temporary :p
 
yup
it does
 
Doesn’t make a diff vis-à-vis Destructible. The code implies destruction of t at scope’s end. std::declval serves as the initializer of t, but there is still a t.
 
1:11 AM
@StackedCrooked Woah, woah! You surely meant to use this_thread::sleep_for there, mate?
 
sleep sleeps just as well
 
@Rapptz Yeah you’re right that will SFINAE out re: non-moveable. I don’t do declval myself.
so what I said would hold up for my stuff, if you do require(T t).
 
[] { for (;;); }(); // restless sleep
This must be what hell is like.
 
@StackedCrooked what.
 
@StackedCrooked Yeah, but non-portable methods sleep with a bad conscience
@StackedCrooked int main() { main(); } < That's hell, save for the fact that it'S UB
 
1:13 AM
On an unrelated note.
I guess I'm gonna write a custom Elo.
 
Glicko let you down?
 
@LucDanton Oh, wait, I got it now: void f(); Very clever!
 
Yeah a bit.
It had people who only participated in 2 tournaments (and never again) up in the top 3 because they never lost in those 2 tournaments.
Gonna try Elo + custom decay and see how that goes
 
Who else is doing the game jam?
 
If I don't forget, I'll be there, struggling to make a thing in 6 hours, this is gonna be a disaster :D
 
1:16 AM
I would have been fine with it if the player who won those 2 tournaments undefeated were actually winning against high ranked players but they didn't really.
 
So what happens? Their opponents’ scores are artificially depressed?
 
@LucDanton Actual top players weren't actually in the top 5 but in the top 10.
 
What you could do is create a system to parameterize both.
 
This really bugged me.
 
i.e. use one score for skill in matchup
do a moving average
then use the moving averages to create a final score based on standing.
equalize at 0.
 
1:19 AM
huh
 
@Rapptz Would it make sense to have a 'Top #' leaderboard of active players, indexed by ranking?
 
i.e. I play as Fox against Falco 5 times, i win all 5 but with different times.
I get several scores for each category to rank "skill" and then I get a moving average of each match score.
Weight the scores based on tournament round or something.
Create a composite score.
 
@LucDanton I tried that actually because some of the top 5, while obviously very good, were inactive so I tried filtering but it didn't work very well.
 
Then, use overall finishing composite scores between tournaments or player groups to create another system-wise composite score.
i.e. Me winning a sucky tournament is bad in comparison to winning the world.
 
@Rapptz what is this for6
 
1:22 AM
Though I may have similar scores, the matchup stats of one player group vs the next are not that well.
 
Ranking players.
For Smash.
 
@Rapptz If you could only time the system.
 
I brought this up because there is (some) merit to a ranking system, and tacking on 'features' to handle that sort of thing sometimes compromises the very features that make the system appealing in the first place.
 
I kinda wanna try out Elo + logistic distribution + inactivity decay and see how bad (or good) it is for that reason tbh.
 
I think SC2 has an inactive decay thing going on
dont remember the specifics
 
1:24 AM
What is the distribution relative to? Ranking?
 
yeah
normal Elo uses a normal distribution
but USCF uses a logistic one
 
What’s that for? Sweet spot in the middle?
 
You have only two options:
1) Absolute scoring based only on performance
2) Relative based on stats and matchups.
 
@LucDanton I believe the reasoning provided was because it was a better fit for lower ranked players' skill.
there's also the k factor issue
which I'm still not sure on
 
Is that kurtosis so ranks towards the extremes?
(It’s been a while since stats.)
 
1:29 AM
Sorry I'm actually curious why USCF uses a logistic distribution so I looked it up.
I only found this.
> The use of computers also allows every game to be rated individually and independent of the tournaments in which they are played. This is transparent to USCF members since official ratings are posted quarterly, but continually tabulated ratings (which no longer need to be rounded to the nearest Elo point) are statistically favorable in their accuracy.
The final change made by the USCF – also made possible by the increased accessibility of computers – is the transition from a normal distribution to a logistic distribution. By observing a large number of results, the USCF determined that a
 
Wikip disambiguates k-factor to Elo (amonst many other things), amusingly.
 
lol
 
@Rapptz Interesting.
might be entirely empirical but oh well :Þ
8 hours ago, by Luc Danton
Opinions on pretty printing?
@Rapptz You see that?
 
I think I was too busy dying of pain
 
I actually stopped toying with it due to a headache
 
1:33 AM
Sooo....Boost.
 
I’ll get to it later, gotta enjoy the week-end.
 
Which libraries are the most helpful?
 
Boost.Filesystem
 
@Cinch I don’t use very many these days. Optional and Variant used to be indispensable.
 
Does C++11 lambdas and such replace Boost.Pheonix?
 
1:34 AM
Boost.Regex is good if you hate std::regex like me
 
The domain-specific ones like FS, Asio, MPI when you’re dealing with that.
 
Boost.Filesystem is top tier
 
@Cinch Yes, to an extent.
 
Boost.Asio is okay.
 
C++14 closes the gap.
 
1:35 AM
How about Boost.TypeTraits?
 
@Rapptz when is std::filesystem coming out? 17?
 
std::typeid()?
 
<type_traits>.
A lot of Boost got accepted into C++11.
 
@Rapptz The domain to Asio not being just networking, but reactor-style networking, as far as I’m concerned.
 
From boost I think we got..
 
1:36 AM
I don’t care for the pre-C++11 emulation layers, generally speaking
it is nice they are there mind you
 
threads, regex, type traits, function, bind
shared_ptr
chrono
wait not chrono
Boost.Chrono was a backport.
 
asio is very nice. you should see chris kohlhoff's demo on "passing the bucket"
 
Asio... Why do I care about as i/o again?
 
Oh we also got the abomination that is <system_error>
nah it's not that bad but it still gives me triggers
 
Oh yeah the one that sticks with me is Boost.Exception.
 
1:38 AM
what else did we get from Boost?
tuples I guess
lambdas kinda sorta?
 
eh no
 
boost lambda was very different.
 
std::exception_ptr, speaking of
 
Yeah I know.
 
Bah.
 
1:39 AM
I thought the Boost guys proposed it
 
for_each(vec.begin(), vec.end(), std::cout << _1);
 
looked it up, guess not
 
Also, why should I use Boost.Signals2?
 
I don’t know, why should you?
 
@Cinch for signaling
 
1:39 AM
I was talking with Puppy about this and I wanted to have a generic event queue system, not signals.
 
@Rapptz Boost Chrono is a back-port, but Boost Date_Time has been around much longer, and I believe it was more or less the basis for Chrono.
 
I feel like I'm missing something major
 
@Cinch so dont use signals
 
While a signal could implement this, idk?
 
@Rapptz Array? lol
 
1:40 AM
Oh right.
forward_list too?
 
what about type traits
 
@StackedCrooked bind (which is really closer to Boost lambda).
 
I have experimented with boost::signals2 but I haven't found a compelling reason to use them. (Maybe I'm not seeing something.)
 
already mentioned
looking at the list though
that is a fairly large chunk of the stdlib in C++11
 
@Rapptz Don’t think so. I could easily have overlooked it though.
 
1:42 AM
@LucDanton Seems the boost version is called slist.
 
unordered_ + hashing stuff? I actually have no clue about that
 
@Rapptz The random number generation stuff has undergone considerable change, but at some point it came from boost as well.
 
I think those aren't from Boost.
 
^good one
 
Maybe it's easier to list things that weren't from Boost?
Atomics?
 
1:43 AM
Hey @Rapptz have you considered turning Sol -> Boost.Lua?
 
nope.
I'll never make a Boost library.
 
K.
 
@Rapptz don’t remember either for that
 
getting stuff accepted into boost seems like a major pita
 
@LucDanton Those were proposed around 1997, but the committee had decided to close the door on new additions, so there weren't added then. Boost had some unordered collections, but nearly everybody else did too (more often named hash_[multi](map|set).
 
1:44 AM
they changed the incubator
 
Also uh...
What does this mean:
[](){ return 1} ();
why the parenthesis at the end?
 
it's invoking it
 
Parse as ([] { return 1; })()
 
Oh I see.
Damn lambda syntax is really interesting.
 
@LucDanton Which, of course is "cast nothingness to a closure type", right? :-)
 
1:46 AM
Parse it as <:]{ return 1; %>();
 
I actually tried (blah<T>)(arg) to foil GCC regarding template variables and it complained of an invalid cast
 
@LucDanton I guess that doesn't come as a huge surprise.
 
Yeah the experimental support started late in the 5.0 development, no way it’s going to get fixed so late at that stage. So there are very obvious quirks atm.
 
I like how they fixed my_stuff<::other::stuff> in C++11.
I'm also surprised how I've never ran into this.
 
1:49 AM
Uh they did? I still put a space.
 
They fixed that?
 
@LucDanton Yup.
 
that’s weird
 
I sometimes wonder how many C++ programmers realize how many more "most vexing parse"-like things like this are.
 
When the parser meets the charater sequence <:: and the subsequent character is neither : nor >, the < is treated as a preprocessor token by itself and not as the first character of the alternative token <:. Thus std::vector<::std::string> won't be wrongly treated as std::vector[:std::string>.
(since C++11)
special casing that grammar lexing
 
1:51 AM
@Rapptz No comment then?
 
@Rapptz Really lexing, not grammar.
 
@Rapptz My coworker uses deeply nested namespaces and always uses fully qualified names. Which led him to decide it is recommended to always pad template brackets with spaces.
 
@LucDanton I don't think it's pretty.
 
@StackedCrooked you work with a masochist?
 
But that's because that's not how I would pretty print with braces.
If I did though, it looks nice.
 
1:53 AM
Would you do the foo = bar equals sign style?
 
as opposed to what?
 
it looks lispy because I was concerned getting the minimum functionality out of the gates
 
foo : bar?
 
@Rapptz I don’t know, it’s your opinion and your call
What is it you like?
 
@Borgleader He manages to always do the most unreasonable thing.
 
1:54 AM
foo = bar is good
Weird part imo is this: name = "\0Ze\"\nro\\n"
What is this?
 
He always goes for the most unreadable, the most complex, the most verbose. And he seems to believe that's the right thing to do.
 
It’s little Bobby Tables’ cousin.
 
Is that a null terminator?
 
It’s a test to see if escaping works, yeah
Notice how the names aren’t name = so-and-so, it’s quoted. And also escaped.
 
what are you pretty printing anyway
 
1:56 AM
Opinion on the [0] = foo, [1] = blah style for tuple-likes? I plan on doing something different for arrays but I’ll keep that for tuples still.
 
that's how lua does arrays
 
@Rapptz It’s pretend 'data' to check that it’s flowing the lines nicely, and how it handles edge cases.
 
x = { 1, 2, 3, [10] = 11 }
 
Would you have picked C designated inits instead?
Just a comma-sep’d list, perhaps?
 
@Rapptz what is that?
 
1:58 AM
An array.
[1] = 2, [2] = 2, [3] = 3, and [10] = 11.
(lua index starts at 1, not 0)
there's no [4] to [9].
 
ew, and ew. :p
 
ikr
 
It's an associative array?
 
Correct.
All arrays are tables.
 
Kinda like PHP.
 
1:59 AM
@LucDanton Maybe do ( foo, blah, etc.. )?
 
What am I saying, C designated inits look the same (for array indices). I was thinking of .foo = blah for non-numeric stuff
 
@StackedCrooked std::map<int, int> x{{1,1}, {2,2}, {3,3}, {10, 11}};
 
@Rapptz I’ll give it a spin.
 
Lua tells you not to consider arrays as tables which I find silly IMO.
"It's just an implementation detail" but it drives a lot of the reasoning behind its retardation.
 
I don’t know when I’ll work that in, but might as well discuss it now: what about arrays/sequences/ranges? [a, b, c, d, e]?
 
2:01 AM
yeah
I have no more napkins, no more tissues, and now I have no more toilet paper.
Guess I have to use water now to wipe my nose.
 
go to the damn store =/
 
It's 10 PM.
 
Note that so-far stuff in {} is either all on the line, or all flown item-by-item. If I can afford it I plan to have stuff in [] fill the line before starting a new one. The expectation being that there can be lots of stuff in [].
 
_(1)[2](3)[4];
I need to find a useful application for this syntax.
 
@Rapptz why did i think it was 7pm for you6
 
2:02 AM
 
btw compilation times are already shoddy
 
@Rapptz use the wall
 
@Borgleader You were thinking of me (or maybe @Mysticial).
 
Oh and of course template stack backtraces are wonderful, too
 
I'm betting this was wrongfold.
 
2:07 AM
@Rapptz What would make it pretty?
 
Oh it's just a personal preference.
I think you like { { { style of braces
 
Yeah, what’s yours?
@Rapptz Not esp.
14 mins ago, by Luc Danton
it looks lispy because I was concerned getting the minimum functionality out of the gates
 
For JSON I do { on a newline except if prefixed with : .
{
    "foo": {

    }
}
but I'm not sure how I'd format your syntax
 
Is it always fully-expanded? Or can you have "foo": { "blah": 0 }?
The point of the pretty-printing is that it adapts to a given number of columns.
@Rapptz It’s kinda the same except that the {}-bags have a 'head' with a name.
 
yeah the 'head' makes it difficult to look good imo
 
2:12 AM
@LucDanton I'd prefer the more compact formatting, especially if dealing with a lot of data.
 
I honestly dislike untyped bags of stuff :(
When I use Lua for config it also looks like foo_config { number_of_wibbles = 3, blah = 'lol', … }
 
I do that if the number of data is very small.
Like 3 elements tops.
Otherwise newline it up.
 
because you’re concerned with dumping the stuff, not flowing to the columns etc. right?
 
Well when I do 'pretty printing' it's meant to look good and human readable compared to e.g. minified output.
I've never actually done anything with column sensitivity like "pretty print but only to 120 columns"
 
heh, I find scrolling almost annoying
 
2:16 AM
I don't think you'd have to scroll much
 
@Rapptz So the ===s separates the same data printed over and over again, but with 10 more columns of slack each time
 
2:43 AM
mm hmm
I just wish I knew which one of you this is
 
How diseased must I be to spend the last 45 minutes looking for answers bad enough to downvote so I could get to this:
I do like my palindromes though... :-)
 
I stand by what I said: numerologists and fools!
 
Just wish I'd been able to get rid of a couple silver badges to make it fit the pattern.
:-)
@LucDanton You almost make it sound like you consider the two separate, rather than one being a subset of the other.
 
It’s good to be specific, like accusing a forger and a liar. Twice as damning!
 
@LucDanton Are the two eternities in hell to be served consecutively or concurrently?
 
2:52 AM
Yes, I suppose they are.
@JerryCoffin And when a new damned soul makes it into hell, all the other ones are moved up a room!
 

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