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user1804599
13:00
I wish constructors had to be protected or private.
@Jefffrey It's adorable.
@Jefffrey I believe they are for you and now, but if they were objectively simple for anyone, there would be one simple tutorial about them that explains the whole story.
@rightføld nah, don't force such things. public ctors are fine, if well implemented
@AndyProwl Monad are boxes that contain 1 type of a value. That's all you need to know.
though I've taken to doing things like having a slight awkward class name, private ctor and then public functions to make the objects. thus avoiding the STUPID 'new'
13:01
no that's not all I need to know
You can't extract things from the IO box.
There, monads explained.
@Jefffrey oh, I get it now. Thanks!
@BenjaminGruenbaum Can you honestly say you really know monads after reading that?
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well, you are recommending to return some Optional<T> instead of null.
In Java that's kind of a waste, because semantically every object can be null.
So semantically, every object is optional.
@AndyProwl no, because I knew what a monad is from uni before reading that. However I do think it's one of those things people LOVE to scare you about but are actually pretty simple.
13:05
I can understand that you may want to have self-documenting code that explicitly tells: "Hey, I'll probably return nothing from here", but that's simply too late.
@AndyProwl It's hard but it's not complicated, it's quite simple. A good analogy might be recursion - it's hard to learn in the first place but once you understand recursion it's very natural to use as a tool.
user1804599
Woot
@rightføld shame we're both bad at working on projects, seems we agree very much on fluffy things.
user1804599
> val x: Array[Any] = new Array[String](42)
user1804599
doesn't compile
13:05
we might actually be able to do something
@AndyProwl Really?
@Jefffrey with Optional checking is explicit and the interface is clear, you can also .map with it (since it's a monad)
user1804599
val x: Array[T] forSome { type T } = new Array[String](42) does, neat.
@Jefffrey Switch on your sarcasm detector :P
user1804599
Time to take a shower.
13:06
@BenjaminGruenbaum if (obj == null) is as explicit as it gets
and fairly common too
user1804599
@Jefffrey bullshit
@Jefffrey right, but there is nothing forcing you to do it and it doesn't chain.
@AndyProwl Really, what's difficult to understand, though? :P
user1804599
Optional documents intent.
Optional documents that it might fail, null just means there is nothing there (and is also a pretty horrible thing to have in a statically typed language)
user1804599
13:07
Optional optionals also don't collapse; you cannot do such a thing with null, so it's consistent.
user1804599
null is a wart and must not be used in any new Java APIs.
@rightføld yeah, but good code can be a bit of a shock to the system for some people
user1804599
Not your problem.
Ell
Ell
@BenjaminGruenbaum optional doesn't document that it may fail
3 mins ago, by Jefffrey
I can understand that you may want to have self-documenting code that explicitly tells: "Hey, I'll probably return nothing from here", but that's simply too late.
13:09
Could C# fix the null problem by adding a new thing {class, struct, newRefThing}
@Jefffrey It's difficult to understand how pervasive it is as a pattern, it is difficult to recognize them when you see problems that might be solved in terms of them, it is difficult to get why the monad laws are defined the way they are, it is not trivial to wrap your head around the way they compose and how they relate to monoids, it is difficult to relate them to other (similar) concepts like exceptions. They are eye-opening, but not really simple.
@rightføld it is when the 'normal' way of doing things doesn't work
@Ell "fail getting a value" not "fail as an operation"
user1804599
I finally understand existential types.
Ell
Ell
Oh right.
Fail is probably not the right word
Imho
13:10
@rightføld crisis!
user1804599
But they're not as useful when you have covariance.
user1804599
@Ell That's what throws does.
@BenjaminGruenbaum nah, the classic example is a search, that might not find anything. If it might successfully find nothing, return an Option<T>.none (or what ever). If you fail to even execute the search, throw... or be dirty and return null
2 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@Ell "fail getting a value" not "fail as an operation"
user1804599
@thecoshman no do not be dirty
user1804599
13:12
Never return null.
user1804599
If you have a function Optional<T> find(Function<T, Boolean> predicate) then you return none if the predicate matched nothing, some if it matched something and throw if something else went wrong.
lol @rightføld and @Jefffrey are having fun in the Java room
user1804599
Me too.
user1804599
IRTA "@Jefffrey and I" for some reason
You need to wear sexy secretary glasses.
13:20
@rightføld makes sense, "rightfold" is "I" for you
Regular glasses won't do.
in Java, 1 min ago, by Jefffrey
static Analysis ftw;
I'm pretty proud of this one.
> If it is too expensive, you cannot afford it.
Impressive.
13:35
> Illusions in life are pointless, reality matters.
eh
hey guys, anyone here got experience with ModBUS?
Without illusions life is depression and reality stop to matter.
@MightyPork Someone on Stack Overflow probably does.
hth
@Jefffrey yeah I'm sure they do, need just to verify something quick. not worth a question
It's worth it, don't worry.
@Jefffrey nope, it doesn't
there are many interesting things in life
13:39
Interesting things are an illusion.
To the only truth: life is meaningless.
The only reason we don't kill ourselves is because death is fucking scary.
Ell
Ell
That ain't truth
@Jefffrey I think it's primarily because not everyone is a nihilist.
And to bear all of this we invent illusions that will help us forget about death for few hours.
Ell
Ell
You talking shit jefff
And those "illusions" tend to last decades, not hours
@Jefffrey yeap, that's why life is so good - I don't serve any thing's/one's purpose (thus life's meaningless), so I get to bloody do whatever I want!
13:41
If you don't keep your mind occupied your head will inevitably think about death and you will have panick attacks and cry for help until you realize you can just go back to your illusions.
write some code Jeff
@Jefffrey What if you keep your mind occupied with death?
@R.MartinhoFernandes You kill yourself, probably.
People are perfectly capable of thinking and discussing death and the meaningless of life without panic attacks.
See: nihilism.
Hey, I'm not depressed. I'm just telling what I think about illusions.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Of course they do. I invite you to spend something like 12 hours, in your room, alone, without distraction and thinking about death.
No alcohol either.
13:44
You think the thinking about death is the bad part in that?
The 12 hours of boredom are.
If you are bored thinking, you don't have a very interesting mind :P
Really, death is not that scary for pretty much anyone.
You'll probably just need a couple of hours, but let's say 12 just to be sure.
Dying may be scary, but merely thinking about it is fine.
It's not like an Elder God.
Yes, thinking about it every day is different.
It's a thought that pollutes everything else.
13:47
Death is a cool dude
when I told my friend that when I am on the internet, I am usually happy, she didn't believe me. thinking life is boring is like thinking being on the internet is boring just because you prefer to hang around with people in real life and suck at online chatting
Then you stop caring about things, and you kinda just embrace the thought of dying.
@Jefffrey Anything you end up thinking about every day would do that.
@Jefffrey Or you don't. I don't understand your absolute certainty that everyone will think the same way.
death is scary for me
@AndyProwl Does it cause you panic attacks?
13:48
Until the point where you are so far off what people call "reality" that you alienate yourself with others and solitude come into play and at that point, very few things really matter. And whether you are alive or not is not one of them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sometimes it does, when I really face the fact that it is inevitable
@Jefffrey In fact, there are centuries of empirical evidence of the opposite.
@AndyProwl that's a good thing - so you don't do dumb things :p
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have friends that think about pussy every moment of their life, and they seem pretty happy to me.
@chmod711telkitty lol I do a lot of dumb things
13:48
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, it's just a theory, I know.
Don't run with scissors
Or, in Robot's case, be anywhere near scissors
@Jefffrey It's just nihilism. It's been beaten to death already.
I was talking about the theory that everyone is the same.
We just happen to have had different experiences.
There are dozens of alternative philosophical currents.
The only thing that would make me stop being scared about death is the belief that another life exists for me after death. But I don't have that belief
13:50
P sure that's clinical depression not nihilism
I was at ocean yesterday but I did not dare to go very far into the water because not many people around and there was a storm coming. Yes I was afraid of death, but better be afraid than get drown.
The thought of having friends can prevent panick attacks from happening.
The kind of panick attacks I'm talking about only come when you are alone (don't have anyone) and for some reason you can't think about something that you want to do to distract yourself.
As usual drugs are the answer
@AndyProwl I just take nihilism to its extreme conclusion: death is just as meaningless as life, so who cares.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then I guess I'm not nihilist. I'd like to live on.
13:52
Survival..ist
idk
@AndyProwl I didn't say I don't want to live on.
@Jefffrey Yeah, put people in a stressing environment and they'll be stressed.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wish your approach worked for me
Anyone here ever used task cancellation in C#, C++ or another language and wants to help with an API we're thinking about for JS promises?
I just can't take it that lightly
13:54
@R.MartinhoFernandes What I describe is the opposite of stress.
I'm trying to wrap my head around it
It's the lack of anything.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Cancellation tokens are annoying
@Jefffrey Being alone is stressful.
13:54
It once happened to me also when I was not alone
@CatPlusPlus I agree with that much :)
I find it way more relaxing than being with people.
github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird/issues/415 Here's the discussion anyone if anyone cares
ever panic in your dreams?
Too relaxing.
13:55
@Jefffrey That's apathy
@Jefffrey I thought it gave you panic attacks.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, because I tend to like to think about death.
Maybe I should have said "being isolated" instead of "being alone".
Let's play DSM bingo
Chatting with strangers on the Internet pretty much doesn't count.
13:56
@Jefffrey not because of your cat? did it try to kill you again?
@Jefffrey So, is it relaxing or stressful?
@Jefffrey go out and do physical stuff?
I used to be very excited about death in general. And I was very dismissive and not caring about it. But it was fascinating to me. How everyone I know basically hates talking about death or even thinking about it. Then I had my first panick attacks related to that, and I realized why everyone was like that.
@chmod711telkitty As I said, it's not my problem yet. I'm fairly ok right now.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I never said it's stressful. Thinking about death is not streesful.
@chmod711telkitty lol
Thinking about my death is stressful for me
I avoid it when possible
@Jefffrey That's why it causes panic attacks, I surmise.
@AndyProwl tell me what a normal person doesn't do
is it a brain problem to be afraid of death?
It is a brain problem to be a programmer
13:59
eh
I think the fear of death keep you safe

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