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3:00 PM
@Griwes This discussion in this room is fine
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have a choice in that case. If I feel endangered by his driving style, I can ask the driver to slow down or something
 
@Puppy What you propose is far from trivial
 
or I could take my own car
 
@TonyTheLion Okay, I'll get a room then.
 
it bases on imaginary technology, imaginary revolution, imaginary society changes
 
3:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Challenge accepted? :P
 
@AndyProwl I suppose you can do the same with a computer.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, I agree that creating a proper autonomous car is probably not trivial.
 
It's perfect for car builders, it's perfect for clients, it's perfect for road killing (you don't have the maximum performance for as less people died as possible) and you have a net decrease of people dying on the road.
 
@AndyProwl But that weakens my choice to be safe.
 
but once you actually have an autocar, which is the premise of the hypothetical situation in the first place, it is pretty trivial
 
3:00 PM
There's no perfect moral choice anyway.
 
@Puppy naaaah. You need way more infrastructure
 
@BartekBanachewicz Imaginary technology? Must be the Matrix over there in California then
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If you can tell the computer to change its decision algorithm, then what's the difference? Control is still ultimately on the person
 
I am sure that it won't happen in my lifetime
i mean, self-driving cars totally replacing regular ones
 
3:01 PM
@Jefffrey Exactly, it won't ever be perfect, but it can made a lot better
 
@AndyProwl No, it's not. You can fall asleep all you want.
You can fail to notice that guy coming in from the left.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not against automated cars as an option
I'm against them as the only option
 
At least the autocars would save on some equipment - the normal light-signalling, with it's extra wiring, controls etc. would not be required. This saves weight and, anyway, fucking Audi drivers ignore them already.
 
oh, that
 
@AndyProwl Why?
 
3:02 PM
I thought you meant something else sorry
 
Can you give a tl;dr kind of thing?
 
@MartinJames whistles
this one had manual override :)
 
@AndyProwl My safety in one improves a lot if you are not driving your own on the same road.
 
@Jefffrey people have reasons for drive themselves, like not trusting machines or enjoying driving
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, it doesn't.
It improves if an outlaw isn't driving the same road
 
3:03 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, there's pros and cons. The software can also be hacked. Ultimately though, what matters is whether I'm allowed or not to make what I think is the best decision to save my life. If that chance is taken from me, I don't think it's correct.
 
@BartekBanachewicz People enjoy shooting, but we mostly don't allow shooting everywhere
 
which, well, guess what, try outlawing the outlaws from driving
 
That should take care for the second one.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Non-outlaw's have accidents too
 
@BartekBanachewicz Human drivers are less safer. It's in the premise.
 
3:03 PM
@Jefffrey driving doesn't hurt people
 
wat
 
sadly paying attention isn't everyone's best feature
 
@BartekBanachewicz Or someone that gets distracted for a second.
 
accidents caused by reckless driving do
 
Ell
@AndyProwl would that decision be taken away? If I was manufacturing self driving cars, I would programme them to save the customer if there is a choice of who to save
 
3:04 PM
It's not speed that kills you, it's the rapid loss of it
 
lol
 
@AndyProwl vOv you have lots of decisions about your life made for you. Why is it so hard to have another one made that can protect others?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm all for cricital stability and crash avoidance in regular vehicles
 
@thecoshman That's a slippery slope as well!
 
@BartekBanachewicz shooting doesn't hurt people either vOv
 
3:04 PM
heck, we have TCS as standard already
we have 4-wheel drive
we have ESP and ASR
 
Ell
you will crash your car if you go down that slippery slope
 
And automated cars have 360 degree vision and never lose attention
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe... but he's willing to have some decisions made for him, but wants to dig his heals in about this vOv
 
then why forbid driving such a car
 
Automated, non internet connected, self driving cars are the shit.
 
3:05 PM
Because you're a shitty driver in comparison
 
if it detects you're going to crash it can save you
 
@BartekBanachewicz no we don't. we have new cars coming with it. We still have vast numbers of cars with very basic mechanical systems
 
@CatPlusPlus So far the autonomous RS7 doesn't really do laptimes of decent drivers
 
Ell
I don't think self driving cars know what crisp packets are yet
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes because laptimes are really important in 99% of cases
 
3:06 PM
@thecoshman I meant as standard in new cars
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
@AndyProwl I find the 'it can be compromised' argument somewhat unsatisfactory. You can also compromise a human-driven car. I don’t think the typical human driver operates under the assumption that their car could in fact be tampered with. Should they?
 
@CatPlusPlus that's how I read "shitty drivers"
 
"laptimes"?
 
3:07 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I know, but it doesn't change much.
 
Automated cars are not meant for racing
 
@Ell But what if I then want to decide otherwise? The point is, it should be my decision. It's my vehicle, I'm responsible for what happens to it and due to it (if not legally, at least morally), and I should be allowed to override a computer's decisions. This said, I'm all for this technology being exploited more than it is today
 
I feel dirty now.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I doubt the autonomous cars are made with racing as a priority.
 
how are shitty road drivers related to racing track laptimes?
 
3:07 PM
And if you race on streets, you're a shitty driver regardless of your laptimes
 
thank god Audi disagrees with you
at least there will be one brand of cars I'll be able to buy and drive
 
Ell
@AndyProwl I guess you could be by the wheel in case you want to take over at that point?
but then what is the point in self driving if you have to be pretending to drive anyway?
 
@AndyProwl There's nothing you can do anyway.
 
@Ell But that's the point we're discussing. Whether you should be allowed to take over or not
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
3:08 PM
that being said, I'm going to sit on my combustion engine motorbike and drive home now
 
Ell
@AndyProwl oh imho of course you should be allowed to take over
 
@Jefffrey There is: you can swerve to avoid the obstacle and kill someone else
 
Ell
just like you can in a plane or a boat or w/e
 
@AndyProwl By the time you realize what happened, the computer has already made a decision and it's in 80% of progress of doing it.
 
so a huge fuck you to all green-weenies-only-self-driving-nonsensical people
 
3:08 PM
from a technical point of view, I think lap times do matter. If a car can be controlled at very high speeds autonomously, it speaks a lot about it's control.
 
Ok, I'll grant you that.
 
@Ell Uh, because the assumption is that the AI will be more correct most of the time
 
@AndyProwl That's why I said the self driving car should have the clients as their top priority.
 
@Jefffrey Oh, that. Well yes, I'd want the computer to be "switchoffable"
 
It's still no reason to let you drive.
 
3:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz ... you realise the point of a self driving car is that you don't drive it yourself...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ha ha ha
 
1 min ago, by Andy Prowl
@Ell But what if I then want to decide otherwise? The point is, it should be my decision. It's my vehicle, I'm responsible for what happens to it and due to it (if not legally, at least morally), and I should be allowed to override a computer's decisions. This said, I'm all for this technology being exploited more than it is today
 
too bad your opinion doesn't matter
 
Guise, I found a hole in your arguments
 
3:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Right, you're one of those "owning and driving a car is an accomplishment" people.
2
 
@AndyProwl Doing some emergency maneuver and driving are not the same.
 
@AndyProwl If you want to die there are quicker ways to do it
 
you all assumed that the people writing the software controlling the car knew what they were doing :P
 
@TonyTheLion Tony we found a hole in your mother in bed :P
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel owning a car is an accomplishment imho
cars are expensive
 
3:09 PM
measuring by what I know about software...
 
Ell
as long as you didn't earn that car immorally :P
 
Also you instinctively think about your own survival.
 
@TonyTheLion That was in the premise.
 
I think that your brain is programmed that way.
 
I know Poland is a war thorn wasteland, but here in the civilized world we consider cars to be at worst a nuisance and at best a necessary evil.
 
3:10 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Damnit
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel I think you are puppy'ing there
 
(one that is becoming increasingly less necessary as progress relentlessly march on)
 
@Ell woof
 
So it's not like you are going to be "Oh wait, but she is a kid, maybe I should die." and then "But what if she becomes like one of those porn pop singers? Maybe she should die" and so on...
 
Ell
but I agree that that's what most think
bartek just happens to be one of the people that drive for pleasure
 
3:11 PM
And as I said, there's no way we can make the best moral decision just yet.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's true, and defending the "I should be able to drive" argument is admittedly harder. My feeling is still for it, though.
 
Either you live in a city (in which case you don't need a car) or you don't (in which case you really wish you didn't need a car)
 
Anyway gotta go, interesting chat guys, cheers
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel what if you live in the rural urban fringe?
 
@Ell You mean suburbia?
 
Ell
3:12 PM
sure
 
It's part of the latter category.
 
Ell
> The rural–urban fringe, also known as the outskirts or the urban hinterland, can be described as the "landscape interface between town and country", or also as the transition zone where urban and rural uses mix and often clash.
> urban hinterland
 
A car is expensive, polluting, it takes up a lot of space, it's potentially deadly, and there has to be a better way to move people and goods around.
 
Ell
livin' in an urban hinterland ♫ ♫
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'd say pigeon, but they're too small to carry humans
 
3:13 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Like instant transportation
But that will make us fat.
 
Self-driving cars are cool and all, but I'm more of a fan of decent public mass transit.
 
Maybe it could burn fat to work.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel me too
 
horse & cart y'all
 
@EtiennedeMartel Not orthogonal.
 
3:14 PM
@Ell Now I want to see a nature documentary on the subject.
 
Ell
though we still need very short distance things
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know.
But a fleet of buses on dedicated express lanes isn't high tech enough to get Reddit excited.
 
@Ell Slidewalks!
 
What we need is self driving buses.
Preferrably electric.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes or those futurama tube things
as long as we don't adopt solar-freakin' roadways I'm happy :P
okay that's a lie, but I do think solar roads are one of the stupidest ideas of recent times
 
3:16 PM
they're quite good but too expensive to be economically viable I think
 
Why are they good?
 
they have a lot of benefits IIRC
 
Or better, why are they better than just slapping tracking solar panels on the side of the road?
 
Ell
the only benefit they have is that they save space
 
solar power, better grip for cars and pedestrians, proper water channels built in, easier maintenance, modular, longer-lasting, and displays for dynamic traffic indicators
 
3:17 PM
Put solar panels on nuclear power plants.
 
Ell
but solar panels above the road would be better
or above pavements
 
@Puppy Better grip than asphalt?
 
Ell
to give people shade
 
@Puppy You really bought in the advertisement.
 
@Puppy Longer lasting than asphalt?
 
3:17 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Eh, I think they're too expensive to be worth it.
 
What I'm asking is this: why cover solar panels with cars?
 
I honestly don't really remember that much about them.
 
Also, asphalt with ice and snow on it is already slippery enough as it is.
 
ah
that's one of the other things they mentioned... something about self-heating in the winter.
 
3:18 PM
"but they can be warming or whatever"
 
probably cost a fuckload though
 
Asphalt is 100% recyclable btw.
 
Ell
I think norway has under-road heating in some places
 
It's one of the most recycled things ever.
 
lol, warming up solar panels in winter.
 
3:19 PM
@Ell Norway is warm.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Did not know that.
 
@Puppy With power from the winter sun, right?
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel depends where
and what season
it's not warm up north :P
 
In the winter the nuclear power plant can heat up the solar panels.
 
1 min ago, by Puppy
I honestly don't really remember that much about them.
 
3:19 PM
@Puppy Asphalt is really as close as it gets to being the perfect material for roads.
 
2 mins ago, by Etienne de Martel
@Puppy You really bought in the advertisement.
;p
 
Concrete is a better choice for highways, though. But it's more expensive.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel and loud as hell :(
when you're driving over it I mean; not just by its-self :P
 
@Ell Who lives next to highways? The plebs, that's who.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Concrete is also extremely recyclable, though.
 
Ell
3:20 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I can see one out of my window :(
 
(IIRC it's the most recycled material)
 
Ell
the noise is white though
 
@EtiennedeMartel It makes more noise, esp. with a skid-reducing surface pattern.
 
Ell
I'm talking about annoying while you're actually driving over it though
on the a50 there is a patch of concrete road and you can really tell when you go onto it
 
@MartinJames And since it's harder it's a bad idea if you have stuff under it. So, in cities, bad choice.
 
3:22 PM
@Ell Yup - I was on it an hour ago, (~~rumble~~).
 
@Ell But it lasts longer and is less likely to become riddled with potholes, which is a common issue in a place like Quebec with the wild differences in temperature all year long.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel I think those benefits outweigh the noise issue :)
 
just get an electric car noob
 
Ell
But if we want a perfect road surface, noise is something to consider
 
preferably a self-driving one
 
Ell
3:23 PM
@Puppy they still have wheels!
 
The freeze-thaw cycle is ridiculously strong here.
 
@Ell If you hit it at the worst speed, it feels like anti-lock brakes.
 
Fucks up roads.
 
@buttifulbuttefly I bet you will
@R.MartinhoFernandes TIL
@LucDanton something is odd there but I can't quite put my finger on it right now :)
 
3:35 PM
It’s a setup that provides more power than a nuclear power plant. It only makes sense.
 
@Puppy free traffic disruption when a solar panel fails. Yup. Having to block and divert traffic is certainly going to ensure "easier maintenance".
I don't care what they say but that plan always struck me as bullocks
In software we don't needlessly tangle things up. There's a reason for that
@BartekBanachewicz racers do not make decent drivers. Racers suck with oncoming traffic and children playing :)
@Ell well played
@AaronHall 26 years old, and more
 
Xeo
Memo: If your app on linux crashes due to OOM / delivering a null-pointer somewhere with a format string nearby, check for stray single % characters...
 
@Ell oh nonono; he didn't mean "kill yourself"!
@Xeo :D aka input validation
 
@LucDanton Been done before on coal plants.
 
@Xeo Memo: don't use libc
 
3:42 PM
@sehe That's older than me. Shit.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Not my choice vOv
 
@sehe Those things will get stolen.
Water will get in the cracks, freeze and fuck everything up.
 
Xeo
it's somewhere deep in the innards of UE
 
Differential loads will make a mess of the tile structure.
Dirt will get on it, and cars will drive over and grind that dirt against the glass.
It's almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a road.
@EtiennedeMartel Now imagine it on roads with built-in cracks.
 
A horse you say
 
3:47 PM
People should just worship asphalt.
 
Xeo
Frack. It was my fault all along ;__;
I did the moral equivalent of printf(string_with_percent), instead of printf("%s", string_with_percent)
 
Boo hiss
You shall be sacrificed as an offering to the asphalt
 
user1804599
@Xeo good thing -W{all,extra,error,pedantic} got you covered. :)
 
Xeo
Not with MSVC they don't
 
Xeo
3:51 PM
this shit was running fine on Windows :<
 
user1804599
That's why you do clang -fsyntax-only … && msvc ….
 
Xeo
@rightfold The cross-compile to Linux goes through Clang, didn't catch it either.
 
user1804599
Then fuck clang.
 
Maybe MS is better at libc than glibc
 
Xeo
But who knows what UE's arcane build systems sets as flags for Clang
 
3:57 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, no, it's ridiculous. The designers only thought about its implementation in a driveway in California.
And they figured it would work the same anywhere.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Several years ago I started thinking about a fighting game design featuring a pantheon of weird gods who fight with chair-like objects and unconventional elements.
One of them was the God of Asphalt, who uses a stool.
(because why the fuck not)
 
Xeo
> Today 9 h 14 min
Time to go home...
 
@EtiennedeMartel 'God of Asphalt' - somehow, I think I've met him before somewhere...
 
There was also the God of Neon and the God of Soup, if I recall.
 
I want to make a game where your main quest is finding pants
I'm stealing your gods
 
IIRC, the God of Asphalt gave me a £60 fixed-penalty notice.
 
4:02 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I once played a D&D character that fought with tables.
Was constantly starting bar brawls.
 
Would be fun if he could only focus on combat while surrounded by tables.
So you have to drag your enemies to a bar if you want to fight them
 
He thought he was the world master of table fighting. He carried a wooden table on his back all the time, and it always took a whole round to get it out ready to fight with. It was a problem to try and go anywhere with doors or corridors.
 
@EtiennedeMartel :laffo:
 
The table was studded with spikes everywhere and the legs were detachable for throwing or whatever other shenanigans.
Also doubled as a makeshift barricade.
 
@EtiennedeMartel you must be an expert
@R.MartinhoFernandes sounds fun
opens up a lot of possibilities
beh why don't my players pick chars like that
 
4:09 PM
Because it's ridiculous.
 
last time we played they forced themselves into murdering 3 people
they were sitting for the remaining half of the session in a kinda bad mood
 
He was a terrible fighter because well... tables suck for fighting.
But so much fun.
@EtiennedeMartel He was refused entrance in several bars.
The ones where they allowed him in with the table, he quickly worked to make himself persona non grata by picking a fight.
 
With all the "future will ban human drivers" controversy, it just struck me.
Europe, so adept to ridicule the Merkins with their NRA and silly 2nd amendment overkill, will probably have something of a EMVA (European Motor Vehicle Association).
Picturing "Cars don't kill, people do" etc.
 
@sehe Like PETA or sth like that, but for cars
 
"We'll have 'community driven' software, if a team needs a module updated, they just do it, there's no fixed team for that module" "Oh, nice, I'll just fix that bug there that's winding me up" "Woah... you can't just change software like that, you have to speak to the team responsible for it!"
 
"Satellites do not exist!"
Moon is a satellite, IIRC
Therefore, no moons can exist
 
You think people who say things like that understand the words they're using
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I watched the first bit, but gave up when the moro.. narrator started talking about termperature in a place where there is next-to-no actual matter to take the temperature of.
 
I like when he mentions that pictures from Earth taken from satellites are bullshit because they're either composites or they are from the 70s, taken from Apollo 17.
 
I don't even....
 
4:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes How did those sats end up there
That silly music :)
 
This channel is a gold mine.
 
I'm not clicking on that video
The title put me off
 
Holy shit it's 30 minutes long
 
Is it improved by adding the X-Files theme in the background?
 
4:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I love how he preempts his critics by saying "You will [get your fancy computer peripherals] and become Keyboard Warriors - 'cause that's what you people do"
No irony at all.
I watched the ISS fly by twice on the same night a day or ~4 before Sammy's return
 
> An airplane can only land safely on a runway that is not moving.
 
aircraft carriers?
 
@Puppy Well, to be fair, landing on aircraft carriers has resulted on more than a few 'incidents'.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm at a loss of words, thinking of how many levels that statement is wrong on
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes people get asked to shot tits in comments
 
4:36 PM
WTF is a 'runway that is not moving' anyway? With reference to what? All the runways I've seen have been moving wrt to the plane as it lands, (else, presumably, I would be an air disaster statistic).
 
@MartinJames True, but it can and has been done (repeatedly)
 
why not every implementations of C++ gives an error if non void functions returns without return statement? Why it is left undefined in C++? It is compiler error in Java & C#.
 
@meet It should give a warning, it's just UB, IIRC
 
> they have solar panels? So they're more environmentally friendly in space than on earth?!
 
4:37 PM
I am still trying to understand
 
@BartekBanachewicz of course. Because there's no environment to exploit
 
@nabijaczleweli: Wouldn't it be nice if it gives an error? I know that Werror option can be used. But why by default they gives warning not an error?
 
@meet It doesn't make the program ill-formed, it's just nasal daemons
 
@meet At the time things like [[noreturn]] weren’t part of the language. That and limited ability of static analysis tools meant that strict rules would prohibit some correct programs to be written, at least without compromising some aspect of them.
@nabijaczleweli Nasal demonry is a kind of ill-formed. Perhaps you’re thinking of 'ill-formed with a diagnostic'.
 
Maybe some calls don't care about the returned value, valid or not.
 
4:39 PM
I'm literally dumber now
 
This video game me cancer
 
@nabijaczleweli: But VC++ gives an compilation error. Then???
 
@meet Searching The International Standard, brb
 
@MartinJames Still UB.
 
@BartekBanachewicz poor you. Too eager to be a victim :)
 
4:41 PM
@MartinJames: Could you give an example where some calls don't care about return value, valid or not?
 
@nabijaczleweli Aaaan you :)
 
> I searched google for images of a satellite and all I get were drawings therefore satellites don't exist
 
@meet The reasons that make something by default an error or isn’t are mostly historical. The options are here for your needs, use them. (Also note that the distinction between errors and warnings is to the discretion of the compiler.)
 
@meet Those that return a success/error bool, but report errors instead by excepting from themselves, or from lower levels.
 
4:43 PM
@nabijaczleweli: good example. yes, we usually don't inspect return value of printf().
But in C++ it is better to use cout object because printf() is unsafe. right?
 
@meet Well, do you always use the return value of e.g. a formatted operation such as operator<<?
 
cc @R.MartinhoFernandes
 
There must be huge numbers of functions that return something, but the caller doesn't care.
 
yes it's from the satellites video
 
@LucDanton: What is return value of operator <<?
 
4:46 PM
@meet the stream itself
 
@meet std::ostream &
 
That being said, the caller ignoring the returned value has little to do with what the callee does.
 
@nabijaczleweli: you mean return a reference to ostream class object which is cout itself. right?
 
@meet Why cout? Any std::ostream &, most of the time
 
@nabijaczleweli: ok
 
4:49 PM
I have one that generates a list of files in a folder. It returns an int representing the number of files found, but it also 'returns' an out parameter of a list containing the filenames. I usually use the list count, rather than the returned int value, when processing the list.
 
@meet See here
Flowing off the end of a function is equivalent to a return with no value; this results in undefined behavior
in a value-returning function.
 
How is it undefined if you ignore the returned value?
 
@MartinJames It’s not. What it requires is that there is a returned value to begin with.
You’re the one that brought up ignoring a returned value.
 
ignoring the return value, or not, has nothing to do with it.
if you fail to return a value, that's it - UB.
 
5:21 PM
@MartinJames This is fun, actually: AFAIR, in C, you can omit return from a function - it's only UB if you use the return value, and in C++, it's always UB
when the end of non-void returning function is reached
regardless of if you use the result or not
 
Hmm...
 
5:35 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have no words...
@R.MartinhoFernandes More like shit mine.
 
5:59 PM
guys
I feel depressed so it would be a really stupid idea to go and purchase 5000 calories of chocolate and consume it all in a single evening, right?
 

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