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8:00 AM
I had an amazing run 2 days ago too.
 
Xeo
one-shotting isaac and blue baby, but with a charge time that wasn't funny anymore
 
transformed to guppy + brimstone + tammy's head
free 1 shot kill with many fucking flies
it was almost unfair
 
Wait are either of you doing Bartek's game jam?
 
Xeo
guppy is the best
@Rapptz did you ever get brimstone + ludovico?
 
no
 
Xeo
8:01 AM
that stuffis plain mean
 
I got vanilla ludo and it was soooooooooooooooo slow
it was painful torture
 
Xeo
giant brim ring of death that you control around the room
 
@Cinch Depends if I'm alive.
 
Bah.
 
Xeo
@Rapptz Yeah, without a nice synergy, ludo sucks
 
8:50 AM
@wilx again with the "women are just doing it wrong". It's almost as if that attitude, if prevalent, could cause the impression of tech being toxic to women. Do you really know enough about her career and her experiences and how she is treated, to say that "she just needs to man up"?
@wilx And yes, it is anecdotal. Honestly, I'm not interested in the abstract theoretical question of "is there a mass exodus of women from tech", but rather in "for the specific women who do get driven out, why does it happen, and what can be done about it". Anecdotes (aka listening to the actual people who've experienced this) aren't irrelevant there.
"Men in tech don't create a toxic environment for women, I'm just a man in tech saying that women in tech are wimps"
Such insight. Very empathy
Anyway, I sent you those links because I thought you might find them interesting, and because you claimed to have heard of zero instances of women feeling unwelcome in tech. Not because I thought they provide objective proof of anything. Do with it what you will.
 
hey all (don't know if anyone remembers me from when I used to hang around here, but i remember most of your sns)
just curious if you guys know of good resources for just practicing for C++ interview programming questions?
i know of project euler but that's all a very particular type of programming and isn't c++-centric
 
www.glassdoor.com
 
umm
 
have you tried it before
 
i'm not sure what part of the site you're talking about
what do they have?
and are the the same telkitty that had that fat wonder woman app?
 
8:57 AM
interview questions from people who did interviews at various companies
 
or did you base your sn on that telkitty
 
I am the telkitty who has ios, android & windows phone apps on the market
 
yeah i've seen those but i'd prefer something like project euler
do you know that?
just less numerical oriented
more data structures and C++-focused
 
@StephenLin cppquiz.org has questions that test your knowledge of C++ language (not programming, not third-party libraries, not writing algorithms - just language).
 
oh
awesome
thank you @milleniumbug
@chmod711telkitty do you remember our argument about blue eyed islanders?
 
9:00 AM
did you find out the answer?
 
@chmod711telkitty in which you insisted that it didn't matter what the guru said
@chmod711telkitty i know the answer, the answer is that it does matter and the guru has to say something like what the problem says for it to work
saying "begin now" doesn't work
 
Btw:
How do these spell names sound?
 
but i mean, maybe you're saying something very deep about how life might work if we're somehow embedded in a blue eyed islanders problem
 
Soul, Despair, Reincarnation, Burn, Frost, Discharge
 
that's what i was getting out
getting at
 
9:01 AM
@StephenLin Who are you and what are you doing in Lounge
OH MY GOD
DEJA VU
I'VE DREAMED OF THIS BEFORE
HOLY S***
 
@Cinch umm, ok?
 
@StephenLin But hi.
 
@chmod711telkitty was that ... for me?
 
@StephenLin No it's for me
I am the awkward turtle of Lounge<C++>
Nobody loved me.
 
9:02 AM
well you weren't here when i was around
like back in mid 2013
 
@StephenLin you need to show me the whole proof
 
when i was working on llvm/clang doing open source stuff
 
then I can tell you why you are wrong :p
 
Oh my god kill me now.
 
@chmod711telkitty for the canonical answer?
 
9:03 AM
for the answer that you think is the right one
 
the canonical answer is that "everyone needs to know that everyone knows that everyone knows .... etc. etc. ... that everyone knows that there is at least one blue-eyed islander"
its called common knowledge
that's why the guru has to say it such that everyone hears it
and everyone sees that everyone hears it
without that, everyone knows something, but not the exact thing needed to start
 
but there was no new information
 
there IS
people don't know what the guru said
let's take the 3 person case
 
in the 3 person case, everyone can only observe two people
so everyone knows that there is at least one blue eyed islander
that's simple
 
9:05 AM
say there are 2 blue eyed people amongst the 3
 
yeah
assuming that
 
right, then?
 
so everyone knows 1) there is at least one blue-eyed islander, and that 2) everyone knows there is at least one blue-eyed islander, because everyone can reason about what someone else sees
but they can't get to 3) everyone knows that everyone knows that there is at least one blue-eyed islander, or at least i don't think they can (i have to think very clearly if it's this one that doesn't work, or the next one)
2) and 3) are different statements
2) is reasoning about what other people see, and 3) is reasoning about what other people are reasoning about what other people see
anyway, i'm kind of too tired to really be sure about this, but either 3) or 4) doesn't work
where 4 is reasoning at the next level
and without that, the recursion can't start
in the 100 person case, the problem is the same
except it's around the 99th/100th statement where the problem comes up
that's what the guru is there fore
everyone sees her say something and everyone sees that everyone else sees her say it
 
still doesn''t make sense, enlighten me on how the one without blue eyes know that (s)he does not have blue eyes
 
so once she says it, the statement is true for infinitely deep iterations
it does, but you just have to think about conditional models within conditional models
you have to reason about what someone could know given what you know
and then reason about what a third person would reason in that situation about the second person, given what you know
 
9:11 AM
what are we talking about
 
people don't usually have to think that level of depth but it's necessary in this case
 
why are we thinking so meta?
 
@chmod711telkitty by the way, I'm not one for appeal to authority usually, but terrence tao stands by the canonical solution
and that guy is a legit supergenius
i think you DO have a point though
but the point is a more metaphorical one than you're seeing
you have a point if you consider that maybe the nature of consciousness is inherently a recursive and distributed information encoding problem like the one in the problem
that's why i like talking to you about it
but it's still frustrating you don't believe the canonical answer
for the artificial brain teaser case
 
Uh...
 
since it's really not that hard
 
9:14 AM
If none of the tribes people know that their own eye color...
And the foreigner didn't give conclusive or final direction for his statement
 
well, it kind of reminds me of the saying that stocks prices reflect on all the information known
 
How does the 2nd solution guarantee that the blue-eyed people will be the only ones committing suicide?
 
ok so now that's interesting because yes it also reminds me of efficient markets
@cinch read through the comments
@Cinch don't have time to fully go over it
@Cinch it's a classic problem though, and among mathematicians there's no disagreement about the answer if the problem is expressed well enough
it'
 
say, if insider reveals that the new line of the company's main product is more profitable than people thought, then the company's stock price will rise. But if this is already a common knowledge, then nothing will happen
 
s a classic way of illustrating the concept of common knowledge: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge"
 
9:17 AM
@StephenLin It really depends on whether the people will truly take his opinion as truth or not. Since they will, it depends on whether their ambiguity will compel them to suicide.
 
sorry
Common knowledge is a special kind of knowledge for a group of agents. There is common knowledge of p in a group of agents G when all the agents in G know p, they all know that they know p, they all know that they all know that they know p, and so on ad infinitum. The concept was first introduced in the philosophical literature by David Kellogg Lewis in his study Convention (1969). It was first given a mathematical formulation in a set-theoretical framework by Robert Aumann (1976). Computer scientists grew an interest in the subject of epistemic logic in general – and of common knowledge in...
 
Considering they are highly-logical... I would say that all of them die.
 
not the other one
@Cinch yeah, the canonical solution is that the N blue eyed islanders all kill themseleves on the Nth day
telkitty's problem is that she doesn't believe the way the guru starts the recursion matter
 
I'm sorry, but how did we induct the first villager?
 
well, ask telkitty
i forgot her exact position
 
9:19 AM
That wasn't explicitly stated in the original problem.
Therefore, how can we imply that if it is not explicitly stated?
 
sorry, i didn't see the link i sent so that might have not been the best write up
 
If the foreigner did not direct it at any villager, either they all commit suicide or they do not.
 
the xkcd guy did a pretty good attempt at removing ambiguity in the write up
all versions of the problem are attempting to get the same result, a lot of them have flaws in their english language writeup
i don't remember which versions say guru or foreigner or whatever
anyway @chmod711telkitty i think it's actually really interesting you think this reminds you of efficient markets, since that means there's some hope i can actually talk to you about why i find your intuition interesting
 
If we assume that the villager is inducted, then of course the villager will commit suicide.
 
my personal feeling is that consciousness is a recursive phenomenon, and in some sense we might (without knowing it) all be perfect logicians
in which case, you'd be right, that any statement at all would begin a recursion
but since the rules are not as simple as "figure out your eye color, kill yourself"
we don't have mass suicides are a result
anyway, i think this problem is in some metaphorical way a model for emergent memes
in the original dawkins sense of the term meme...so cultural ideas in general instead of funny gifs
@chmod711telkitty still there?
 
9:24 AM
yeah
 
@Cinch i'm not really paying attention, sorry, since i don't know how far you are in understanding the canonical solution
 
I have a rather short memory, so I am catching up on the problem and its solution
 
@chmod711telkitty well anyway, i basically am saying i think you have a deep intuition
 
thanks :p
 
even if others might call it a lack of mathematical understanding of a particular artificial brainteaser
 
9:26 AM
WTF induces any villager beyond the first to commit suicide?
 
i think it's possible you just have a better understanding of what the brainteaser really implies about logic
@Cinch yeah, you're a bit behind, i would read the comments in the blog if i were you
@Cinch sorry, not really in the mood to be pedagogical at that level now
@chmod711telkitty i mean logic outside the bounds of an artifical brainteaser, that is
 
Now where does this super-formal logic come in handy?
 
Hello
 
umm ok well i still don't know where you are, but if you want to join in with what i was saying to telkitty, is that i've thought about the problem a lot beyond just the pure math/brainteaser thing
 
@StephenLin well, what different does it make to the outcome if the guru/outsider says 'from now everyone who has blue eyes must leave'
 
9:29 AM
@chmod711telkitty becuase you don't have 100 levels of (everyone knows that (everyone knows that (everyone knows that (.....there is someone with blue eyes....) ) ) )
from that
you have 99
and that's not enough
 
What does meta thinking have to do with anything right now?
 
yeah so i mean, you really have to think about what perfect logicians mean
 
Can anyone help me with sockets and protobuf?
 
it means you have an complete mental model of what someone else could know given what you know they know
with 100 people on island
 
9:31 AM
Maybe some know-hows
 
Oh wait I get it now
 
the solution lays on the fact that someone without blue eyes sees one more blue eyed person than a blue eyed person
 
it means everyone is thinking about what everyone knows everyone else knows, and then, at a meta level, what everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows, etc.
 
@StephenLin Unfortunately obfuscated information is a fact of life
 
but not everyone knows the same thing!
 
9:32 AM
everyone knows that people see at least 1 blue eyed islander down to 99 level
 
No, I got it now:
If there were only 1, that one would commit suicide
 
@Cinch my point is that maybe it isn't...what if we are actually on an island in a blue eyed islander problem, and we're all infinitely good logicians
 
If there were 2, each would realize that there was only 1 other blue-eyed person on the island.
 
it's just something so ingrained in our natures that we don't know it
 
When the one wouldn't commit suicide, by logic, that means that person has seen at least 1 other blue-eyed person
Since the first can see all others, he must deduce that he must be the other one
thus both commit suicide on the 2nd day
 
9:33 AM
the model for how knowledge "spreads" in some sense on this island
 
That's actually pretty dang smart.
 
@Cinch yes, i think you got it, but i'm more into the philosophy of it all
basically, "what if you're one of these islanders, and you don't know it"
 
So?
What does that mean to you?
 
that things like psychohistory from asimov might make a lot more sense than people seem to think
 
Actually, wouldn't everyone start committing suicide?
Wait no.
 
9:35 AM
and that the apparent "chaos" (in the formal theory of chaos--small perturbation change results in difficult to predict ways without perfect knowledge) might not actually exist
 
Oh that?
Well simple I guess?
 
ok so like, the interesting thing about the blue eyed islander thing
 
1) Chaos is because we cannot measure its precision with the resources and equipment we have
 
is that from the outside perspective
no one is coordinating
and no one is talking
they just go about their business for N days
and then suddenly, all at once, they all do the same thing
 
You misunderstand.
Communication here is based on deferred logic and public information
It's basically a logic bomb
If you think about it, it's a continueous state machine that feeds back to itself
 
9:37 AM
yes, and what if the noosphere is just infinitely deeply recursive logic bombs that are being played out via human minds as vectors?
 
sorry... noosphere?
 
the sphere of human thought
by analogy to "biosphere"
 
Hm...
 
i mean, maybe we're all tied together in these logic bombs without knowing it
 
@StephenLin have you ever read this:
The unexpected hanging paradox or hangman paradox is a paradox about a person's expectations about the timing of a future event that he is told will occur at an unexpected time. The paradox is variously applied to a prisoner's hanging, or a surprise school test. Despite significant academic interest, there is no consensus on its precise nature and consequently a final 'correct' resolution has not yet been established. One approach, offered by the logical school of thought, suggests that the problem arises in a self-contradictory self-referencing statement at the heart of the judge's sentence. Another...
 
9:38 AM
I suppose life itself can be solved.
 
have you seen stand alone complex?
ghost in the shell?
 
I think life is maybe solvable... with perfect knowledge.
 
the "copy without an original" idea from the first season is kind of what i'm going for
and maybe we do have perfect knowledge
 
@StephenLin you mean std::move?
 
we just are playing out logic bombs
 
9:39 AM
@StephenLin Oh fuck you that's ridiculous
Sorry, I can't stand people who say we know everything.
 
no i don't mean consciousness
like on a human level
i mean, that the very nature of the physics our brains rely on are playing out these logic bombs
 
On a human level, life as a function of time can probably be derived.
 
i mean, consciousness is just mathematical interaction
 
I don't think we'll be able to predict anything, really.
 
@StephenLin tell me your thoughts on the unexpected hanging paradox
 
9:40 AM
ehhh, i think the unexpected hanging paradox just rests of the ambiguity of language more than anything else
but i could be wrong
 
@StephenLin Seems that way to me.
 
i think trying to make statements about whether someone "expects" something into a logical predicate is just not a reasonable thing to do
i could be wrong though
 
it's a false induction
 
"expectations" are fuzzy logic
Trust is the factor here.
 
reasoning about your own mental state is inherently self-referential
 
9:42 AM
But trust is a function of state and input as well
 
and self-referential reasoning can lead to very strange results if you don't do it properly
 
Therefore trust can be computed as a function of memory, experience, and chemical systems
But all of these then be decomposed to matters of physics and chemical systems
Chemistry to physics
physics to quantum physics
Entropy reversed...
Perhaps the universe once did originate from one single seed value.
 
well anyway, @cinch, @chmod711telkitty, my intuition about the blue eyed islanders problem is that is might reflect something deep about the mathematical nature of human consciousness, which we only have scratched the surface of, like seeing only the top of icebergs
it's possible we're playing a really long game with each other
started by a logic bomb from the big bang, even
 
@StephenLin No. I think it's possible that life is pre-determined.
 
and we're just so used to it because we don't know doing anything different
 
9:45 AM
@StephenLin Life is a function of countless amounts of variables of states and input and sub-functions but it is still predictable.
 
@Cinch no or yes? it seems like you're agreeing with me?
 
Given enough computing power, we could probably calculate the state of life to a limit.
 
but it would be self-referential
 
Granted that would require like Googol-dimension calculus or something.
 
a system cannot predict itself
it's like godel's incompleteness
 
9:45 AM
@StephenLin Uh, sorry?
A simulation of a system can predict itself.
 
not in the general case
 
Functions themselves are conditional states put together.
 
it's why you can't solve the halting problem in the general case
 
Halting?
show me
 
you can design a system specifically to allow it to be recursively modellable by itself 100% accurate, but that's basically like desigining a quine
In computability theory, the halting problem is the problem of determining, from a description of an arbitrary computer program and an input, whether the program will finish running or continue to run forever. Alan Turing proved in 1936 that a general algorithm to solve the halting problem for all possible program-input pairs cannot exist. A key part of the proof was a mathematical definition of a computer and program, which became known as a Turing machine; the halting problem is undecidable over Turing machines. It is one of the first examples of a decision problem. Jack Copeland (2004) attributes...
and you have to try hard to create something like a quine on purpose
in general, systems capable of expressing mathematics have properties that they themselves cannot prove about themselves
that's godel's incompleteness
 
9:48 AM
Ugh.
Logic.
 
you cannot have a complete, consistent, and sound mathematical system that is capable of modeling even something as basic as natural numbers
actually, the point being more that natural numbers aren't that simple
 
I'm more of the philosophy that we will never know anything.
 
natural numbers can encode computation, and computations can be self-referential
 
Mathematics is grounded by reference to the nature of reality.
 
oh, i'm of a philosophy that any attempt at a top-down understanding of reality from within reality is silly
i don't even bother
life is just about coming up with local heuristics to make local decisions with locally available informatoin
 
9:50 AM
How can the player inside the game know that he is inside the game?
 
and you'll never ever know what that fully means in the big picture, or could you
 
@StephenLin Uh, that sounds about right to me.
 
yes, i agree
 
@StephenLin Unless you can simulate life itself, no.
 
well, you could only simulate a simpler life than you are
i mean, mathematical systems are always embedded in larger systems
 
9:51 AM
What rule constitutes such a thing?
 
so you can imagine that it's turtles all the way down
simulations within simulations within simulatoins
 
"simple' is an abstract term
 
well, in the sense that can be computed within the resources you're limited to physically
based on the physics are "your" level
 
protocol buffers and sockets, anyone? please
t.t
 
Game of Life!
@teivaz No.
 
9:52 AM
Bah.
What's your philosophy system?
 
a universe can't simulate itself with its own resource
s
umm, mine? i have none and all?
 
@StephenLin Actually that seems right
 
Well, it can't.
 
every -ism and no -ism at all?
 
For someone with so much study in logic, what is your own personal take?
I mean, we don't study logic for nothing.
 
9:54 AM
basically i think all -isms have validity to some degree, but none are full complete answers
are you talking to me? i don't study logic, i'm a c++ programmer
and yes, there's some snark to that :D
 
Hm.
 
(actually STL is pretty logical but i mean, C++ isn't close to say, functional languages in being logically structured)
 
That's a very general and almost dismissive opinion to have.
Almost too generic
 
me?
which one?
oh, the all and none thing?
well i mean, that's if you force me to give a single answer
 
"All isms have validity to some degree, but none are full complete answers"
It's a problem unsolved.
 
9:55 AM
i only have local answers to local problems
based on local heuristics and local knowledge
 
Unfortunately that's not how the world works...?
 
in particular cases, i might find a particular ism more or less valid
but i don't pretend that my perspective is universal
 
People must give answer to problems with limited information.
 
why not? why do you need global answers?
yes, and i do that
 
That goes into the realm of morality
And... purpose and more.
 
9:57 AM
and i try to follow the heuristics that i have the best i can
even with limited knowledge
i just don't pretend that i have a top-down view of what it all means
 
So everything is relative?
 
i mean, i don't kill people because i really don't think the consequences would be good for me
based on all available heuristics
 
So we've established that nothing is what we think it is in reality
Correct?
We will never know all.
 
and i can't either prove or disprove that there is a hell either
well i mean
sure, you can say that there's no such thing as "reality" but i think that's just semantics
there's something you refer to intuitively when you refer to reality
and it doesn't go away just because you say the word doesn't mean anything
 
But we have established that no concept known to us by our minds is inherently absolute.
 
9:59 AM
well, i think you're being too kind to either me or yourself if you think we've established anything just by talking about it
 

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