« first day (1618 days earlier)      last day (3329 days later) » 

11:00 AM
it's not silly or pointless
 
and i was only discussing in the context of the last question
the short story
 
user1804599
@Puppy you wouldn't download a car
 
based on the hypothetical assumption that the model asimov alludes to actually is how the metaphysics of creation happens
i think we're getting off track
 
and there's a very big difference between extrapolating the behaviour of the universe over it's life cycle according to current models, and making some definitive statement that that's how it's going to be.
 
ok well anyway all of this is off topic since i was only talking about stuff in the context of the last question as a open-minded "what if"
it's a neat model
 
11:01 AM
it's a neat model that's splurged with random consciousness crap.
 
well, i mean, you can write you own version
 
a neat model would be "Gravity beats dark energy in the long run, universe sucked into singularity, singularity explodes again"
no requirement for men, computers, or consciousness.
 
Gee, you're terrible at this.
 
if you want to write a short story like that, that's fine
it just wouldn't be nearly as interesting to most people
you could think all the talk of consciousness and God is silly and i won't blame you for thinking that
 
it is highly silly
 
11:03 AM
but there's plenty of people that feel otherwise and i won't blame them for that either
 
user1804599
fucking C++ not allowing f(x, y,).
 
I will
 
what do you think consciousness is, then?
 
on the scales in question, I imagine it's completely irrelevant once it's been sucked into a black hole.
 
if you are so sure that consciousness is not inherent in the metaphysics of the universe
then what do you think it is?
 
user1804599
11:04 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
 
well, it's clearly the outcome of some physical processes involving baryonic matter in a given environment.
 
i mean, i just find it weird that you have such strong intuitions about the meaningless of consciousness in the big picture when you can't define it
hmm, really?
so what if you replaced a brain piece by piece with a electrical circuits
such that at every time you modelled the behavior of what you replaced exactly before making a replacement
at the end, you'd have the same person, right?
 
electrical circuits are also baryonic matter that only operate in given environments, and they are the outcome of existing physical processes (us).
so they make no difference really.
 
right but then
you find some non-baryonic system that does the same underlying math
and combine all that together
so that there's an isomorphism
 
who says it combines together?
perhaps the non-baryonic system annihilates the baryonic one.
 
11:07 AM
can't do that now obviously
 
user1804599
Alright. I guess I'll just use std::function here.
 
or they simply pass through each other, which is pretty much what all apparent non-baryonic matter does.
 
i'm saying, it seems obvious to me that it's the mathematical relationships that lead to consciousness
that anything isomorphic to those mathematical relationships would have the same consciousness as the original
matter or non-matter or whatever seems beyond the point
and if consciousness is about mathematical relationships
 
right; but those mathematical relationships can only be modelled by appropriate physical systems, and there's no reason to believe that the entire universe does so.
 
and you know that how?
 
11:08 AM
Because his science blinders are on.
 
it seems like you're committing the sin of elevating the only example of consciousness you're aware of as somehow the only one possible
 
it's less a question of "I know that" and it's more a question of "There's absolutely no evidence to conclude that it would and all observed astrophysical mechanisms are a million miles away from it"
 
same sin as those that refused to believe in other suns
then other galaxies
ummm
so let's say you were a living being on the scale of, like, a proton
you couldn't be, of course
but say you could be
and you were inside a brain
 
@Puppy Yes, and that's boring and all it does is sabotage someone else's discussion of hypotheticals that wasn't in those terms to begin with.
 
well, I wouldn't say I could be, since I can't be.
 
11:10 AM
well the point is, if you were inside a brain looking out
would there be any evidence that this was a conscious being?
all you'd see is just a bunch of signals flying around
 
it doesn't matter.
 
and what if you were observing a brain on much slower time scales
 
user1804599
> No such file or directory.
 
than those signals were being passed around
 
user1804599
I thought directories were files.
 
11:11 AM
if I was the size of a proton and incapable of understanding the brain, it would be completely rational for me to conclude that according to my current observations and models, then the brain cannot be conscious.
 
so how do you know you're not making the same mistake at your level?
by assuming that the universe as a whole is not something conscious?
 
it's not a mistake.
it's a perfectly rational belief based on all the available evidence.
 
fine
but it'd be wrong
 
that's pretty much irrelevant.
 
you can be rational and still wrong
 
11:13 AM
true, but being rational is the best you can be.
there's nothing better.
therefore, if you are rational and wrong, there's nothing you could do to correct that situation.
 
no actually you can just withhold judgement
you can just avoid making any statements that you can't be sure about that have no effect on your life
 
well, they do have an effect on my life
 
why do you need to convince yourself either way that there's universal consciousness or not?
why?
i don't care at all
 
stuff like Boltzmann brains have implications as to the direction of researchers, for example, which would influence what theories they come up with.
 
i refuse to get myself pinned down taking any point of view that doesn't have any local effect on my life
 
11:15 AM
if you have a model, it's important to extrapolate it as much as you can so that you can find inconsistencies
or compare predictions to new evidence
 
yes but you don't need to model from the end backward
you model from local systems outward
you can just be completely agnostic as to the top-down view of all reality, which is what i am
 
you could be, but that's pointlessly restricting yourself and your ability to make rational decisions.
 
user1804599
Well, fuck, my compiler doesn't push the arguments on the stack in the reverse order.
 
user1804599
Well, it doesn't matter.
 
i find Asimov's Last Question compelling for a lot of reasons...i might find your alternate "Godless" version compelling too, but I wouldn't commit myself to saying i believe either is true since it really wouldn't do me any good or have any practical effect
 
user1804599
11:16 AM
Good.
 
user1804599
:)
 
@райтфолд Why would you depend on this behaviour?
 
it would just be a compelling story to drive intuitions
 
user1804599
Because the interpreter has to pass them in the right order.
 
@Puppy i don't see how
 
11:17 AM
@райтфолд I ... don't see how the compiler's internal function-argument-pushing behaviour affects this.
 
user1804599
Anyway nvm.
 
@Puppy i don't need a top-down view of all reality to decide anything
 
user1804599
@Puppy I mean the code it generates.
 
@puppy by the way, you're DeadMG right?
 
@райтфолд Oh, you meant, your compiler, not the compiler compiling your compiler.
same dog in the photo
 
11:18 AM
@puppy i've been seeing your posts on LLVM lists here and there
 
bah
 
user1804599
@Puppy P
 
the LLVM people have achieved something pretty good, which is why it's so annoying that they can't manage it properly for crap.
Clang's much worse though
 
@Puppy just fyi...I was at apple but kind of on a higher part of the stack for awhile so didn't post there
@Puppy i've left (or am leaving in two weeks)
 
I don't really have the time to deal with them anymore so
 
11:19 AM
@Puppy oh there are reasons
@Puppy swift is part of it
 
really?
 
@Puppy almost everything apple people do is really for swift or other secret stuff
 
Swift is part of the reason why they have a bunch of moronic mutable global variables?
or it is the motivation behind moving GCC header path detection into the command-line driver so everybody using Clang as a library can't use it?
 
@Puppy no one really cares about llvm other than that the build doesn't break
@Puppy for what people really are working on internally
@Puppy that's why
 
oh
I guess that exonerates all the other LLVM maintainers then?
 
11:21 AM
@Puppy ::shrug::, I'm just telling you what I know
 
well, it simply doesn't make a difference to me
 
in what sense?
 
user1804599
#pragma GCC diagnostic ignored "-Wvla-extension" nice.
 
well
 
anyway, I'm just saying I agree with you that the open source project is not very well run
 
11:23 AM
it was written poorly the first time around and the people who are still maintaining it aren't really fixing the problems and often just making it worse.
 
because i think all the corporate sponsors take the same attitude
 
why some people aren't maintaining it anymore doesn't really make much difference to that
 
because most maintainers officially are apple people
and their jobs are not to maintain
their jobs are to do apple stuff
 
not anymore
Apple passed less than 50% maintainer proportion some time ago
 
well, plurality
and the other companies are the same way
 
11:24 AM
and also
 
everyone just wants to freeload off others while not breaking anything for what they want to do
 
that count only includes the actual active maintainers that are still committing
 
no one's employees are actually being paid to spend time "maintaining" and being good community members
if a company allows someone to maintain a part of llvm, it's because they have their own secret reasons for being invested in that area
(probably an internal private fork overlapping that area)
and their vested interest is in keeping their fork building
a lot of maintainer reviews are BS excuses
to keep things from breaking
that's why things are the way they are
it's not just apple
it's all the corporate maintainers
on the lists it's all about cooperation officially, but underneath the surface (once you know the poeple involve and find out their vested interests) it's easy to tell how much political bs is being passed as legit technical debates
no one's real interest in the health of "llvm"; just in the health of their own forks of it
anyway, that it works as well as it does is surprising
 
Must be Sunday - the annoying and bad assignment questions are reaching a crescendo:(
 
@Puppy don't rat me out as saying any of that, of course
@Puppy or at very least not in the next two weeks
 
11:40 AM
err @Puppy ping?
@Puppy ping?
 
user1804599
12:00 PM
Woo, hello world works!
 
> they have their own secret reasons for being invested in that area
Except it's really quite obvious, and the reasons are often not secret at all
 
@sehe ok not so much secret
@sehe well i mean, before swift was out, there was quite a bit a secrecy
 
Not about LLVM though
 
and i can't break NDAs but can tell you that there's still quite a lot of stuff Apple uses LLVM for that is non-public
ummm
swift is built on llvm
anyway, i don't want to get hammered for NDA violations
 
@StephenLin yeah. so
 
12:06 PM
the general point is that the motives for people bringing patches to llvm are almost never what they're publically claimed to be
 
@StephenLin This, too, makes a brutal amount of common sense. They didn't start the project for nothing.
Hell, even Android has Dalvik
 
from corporate contributors that is
Christ Lattner started LLVM at UIUC before joining Apple
 
@StephenLin Agreed. Same for Linux kernel, graphics drivers (proprietary and non-proprietary), CoreBoot etc etc etc.
 
but he's head of Developer Tools now at Apple and very much a company man
 
It's even the same for OpenSSL, LibreSSL, apache, nginx, etc.
 
12:07 PM
right so the point is, a lot of the discussion about why something should go in or not is clearly BS and obviously so once you're inside one of those companies
i guess you're right that it's not much of a secret
but it wouldn't be obvious to someone naive just reading mailing lists
 
Well. Nothing is ever obvious to the naive
 
because everyone on mailing lists claims to be doing things for the sake of the project they're on, not for their own corporate interests
haha fine
i guess i was naive about LLVM before joining then
since i really didn't realize how much politics was behind patch reviews
masquerading as purely technical debaters
 
:D And everyone is to a degree. This what diving into a community brings: experience and network intelligence
 
masquerading as purely technical debates
oh, that was supposed to be an typo edit, oops
 
@StephenLin Ah. I've never assumed this was purely technical. I've seen so many awesome pull requests on GH or similar be ignored. It's good when a project has it's own focus. And it's only common sense that the heavy investors have more weigh in that focus
 
12:10 PM
well, anyway, i was just explaining to @Puppy (i.e. DeadMG I assume) why LLVM has so many structural issues
 
Yeah. It's because software sucks :)
But all things being equal, LLVM is an impressive feat
 
well, it's more the fact that if those structural issues aren't in the direct way of any business interests of any of the "corporate" maintainers, then it won't get fixed
there's too much danger of rocking boats
 
What other reason do think generally underlies software suckage?
 
it seems like people are willing to rock boats
but that's only when they have business reasons to push on them
so anyway, there's this appearance that people are willing to take on major redesign challenges on the lists
but it's only because someone internally at some company has already decided to do it
for their own private reasons
and is trying to minimize the divergence from the public tree
but convincing the "community" that it would be a good redesign
that's why the stuff DeadMG complains about never gets fixed: no fixes or redesigns ever originate that way
they only happen because someone internally already did it because they had to, and they're trying to get it merged without showing all their cards
 
user1804599
GitHub thinks that 10% of my compiler is written in Perl 6.
 
user1804599
12:15 PM
But it's 100% Perl 5. :(
 
user1804599
Reminds me of this (deleted) answer: stackoverflow.com/a/17279129/1804599
 
12:28 PM
Missing hiker Warren Meyer may have been killed after stumbling on marijuana crop ... scary, because we bumped into 2 marijuana plants when I went on bushwalk with the bushwalking group
It's in a different place though
 
Hyperlink fail
@райтфолд you have to credit GitHub for not labeling it "uniform random binary data"
 
user1804599
@sehe Why?
 
:D
anti-joke-rhetorical
 
user1804599
 
> \@result;
Dat awkward moment when you think return statements are out-of fashion so you prefer this cruft instead \@result;
The rest looks pretty decent
 
user1804599
12:41 PM
Thanks.
 
I mean, if you can put up with the Perl line noise
 
user1804599
> { type => 'module', decls => \@decls },
 
user1804599
dat comma
 
=> is not any different IIRC (I know you mean the trailing not-semicolon)
 
@райтфолд As Perl goes, it's quite nice.
 
user1804599
12:43 PM
It is different.
 
Mar 15 at 21:48, by райтфолд
primitive low-level crap
 
user1804599
=> allows a bareword whereas , doesn't.
 
user1804599
Assuming use strict;.
 
Okay
 
user1804599
Otherwise it's identical.
 
user1804599
12:44 PM
I like Clojure's comma which is treated as whitespace.
 
1:05 PM
Why does everyone hate IOStreams
 
2 days ago, by Jefffrey
Why not set_locale? The fuck does imbue says about the locale? We are not making potions damnit.
 
@milleniumbug That's about locales. That's sort of something else.
 
@Columbo 25% because of poor design. 75% because of poor names and worse documentation, so people completely misunderstand the design.
 
@Columbo But the name imbue is used in std::ios::imbue
Which is part of iostreams
 
@JerryCoffin I find the design sophisticated, actually, but I have no experience whatsoever. And the names.... well. underflow or xsputn are idiotic names and do not express what they are.
@milleniumbug YES I JUST REALIZED THAT
@JerryCoffin Anyway - does sync completely replace the buffer for input-buffered streambuffers, or does it just append the new characters if possible?
 
1:10 PM
@Columbo The design is fairly sophisticated. The problem is that it's trying to reach too many different goals.
 
@JerryCoffin But that isn't a bad thing per se, is it?
 
@Columbo I don't remember offhand--I'd have to look it up to be sure.
 
I'm currently almost done with a streambuffer for WinAPI Pipes :D
@JerryCoffin I have the classic book about IOStreams, I'll look it up myself
Just thought you're the C++ overloard and such
;)
 
@Columbo Theoretically no, it doesn't have to be, but in this case it makes almost any one goal difficult to achieve, which isn't so good.
 
@Columbo should be relatively straightforward. They way I remember it is to just derive fromstreambuf or stringbuf or something and override /just/ the overflow/undeflow helpers
@Columbo Scan a few answers from Dietmar Kühl; he's quite good at showing the minimal required samples for many iostreams tasks
 
1:15 PM
@sehe sync should be overloaded as well, for buffered streams.
 
^
 
@Columbo I am a mere journeyman (at best) compared to the true masters (e.g., James Kanze and especially Dietmar Kühl).
 
Dietmar Cool
 
@JerryCoffin Kühl.
 
Aw. Dat edit
 
1:16 PM
@JerryCoffin And Kanze isn't a master. IIRC That guy didn't even know what an lvalue-to-rvalue conversion was.
 
> "that guy"
 
(Or someone else. Eitherway, I was pissed off so I remember.)
 
You may wish to tie his shoe-lace someday
 
the main thing I remember about Kanze is that he hates RAII with a passion
 
@Columbo He knows iostreams a lot better than I do anyway.
 
1:17 PM
@JerryCoffin I believe that.
@Puppy lol
 
@Puppy huh
 
I only met Kuhl here a couple of times, and he seemed fairly bright, but didn't seem to grasp why return codes should not be the default error-handling mechanism
and secondly, props to anybody who could get an API involving virtual inheritance past the performance-mongerers on the Committee
 
@Puppy .. that's nonsense anyway. The best way is obviously to create a bunch of exception types derived from runtime_error and throw/catch these appropriately
@Puppy Wasn't the creator of that library Jerry Schwarz
 
maybe, but I thought that Kuhl was the one who put it through Committee
that was a long time before my time anyway
 
@Puppy What!?
@Puppy How old are you if I may ask
 
1:22 PM
no you may not
 
@Puppy ~25
I bet
No
Yes
 
yes no maybe, could you repeat the question
 
@Puppy I'm not at all sure about that--by the time the committee was formed, iostreams had been in use for quite a while. I doubt anybody ever really contemplated standardizing C++ without iostreams.
 
@JerryCoffin I guess that if they didn't include them, they would have had to have had some other I/O library.
 
@jalf How typical of you to use "man up" when I have only said that she should be more assertive. Being assertive is not gender specific.
 
1:24 PM
@Puppy What's your fucking age
 
my fucking age?
 
Also, Wide Language seems like the cheapest and stupidest rip-off crap ever.
wtf?
 
I wasn't aware that you could have a fucking age as well as a regular age.
 
@Puppy No, just your age. :P
 
how does fucking age and regular age differ, exactly?
 
1:25 PM
@Puppy fucking age = regular age - age-of-consent
 
@Puppy Yes. At least some of them were old enough to remember the fiascos caused by (for example) the Algol specs, which did omit I/O facilities.
 
well you'll obviously have to ask my fucking partner what my fucking age is.
@JerryCoffin Technically, they would still have had printf and friends, but let's face it, they're one of the few things actually worse than IOStreams
 
user1804599
Use Baka I/O streams.
 
@Puppy I'm quite certain Bjarne would never have gone for that. He's pretty careful not to play the role of dictator (not even a benevolent one), but I'm pretty sure there are still points on which he'd just have said "You shall not pass!"
 
I thought that the language standardization procedure was done by ISO and he didn't actually have any more rights than any other committee member?
or would that have only required informal influence
 
1:30 PM
Hahaha
> [..] we noticed that the offer letter we sent to you in January curiously just offers you a place for "Computer Science" whereas we had intended that it is a place for "Computer Science with Mathematics"
 
@Puppy Exactly. If it came to a vote, yes, he has exactly one vote just like anybody else. At the same time, I find it had to imagine much of anybody voting in favor of something it Bjarne had just said "No, absolutely not." For that matter, there are quite a few other members who'd have been at least as strongly opposed to such a thing anyway.
 
user1804599
Coool, Slipknot.
 
@райтфолд Did I miss something, or is that a bit of a nonsequiter?
 
1:45 PM
@Puppy lol
 
user1804599
I don't know how to make the GC keep track of objects.
 
@райтфолд It doesn't keep track of objects--it just keeps track of specific starting points, and finds the rest of the objects from there.
 
user1804599
I need a smart pointer.
 
Oh dear lord. Who told you needed all that :( Semantic actions use Boost Phoenix actors, which are specifically designed to make interacting with parser context user friendly. All that cruft is really library implmenentation detail. In fact you've inspired me to write another answer showing you the completely naive and slightly smarter Pure-Qi approaches. — sehe 6 secs ago
@райтфолд Go outside!
 
user1804599
Why?
 
1:59 PM
@райтфолд No, not usually anyway.
 
2:11 PM
@райтфолд You asked for a smart pointer
3
> [16272.761118] Out of memory: Kill process 17382 (python2) score 458 or sacrifice child
 
What the hell is a text input action game?
 
@Mr.kbok A game in which the action is driven by the input of text.
@Columbo Hilarious.
 
Replacement and falling is basically "implement tetris"
 
user1804599
> src/interpreter.hpp:55:27: error: variable length array of non-POD element type 'mill::GCPtr'
 
user1804599
Dammit.
 
user1804599
2:24 PM
VLA y u no non-POD.
 
@райтфолд alloca
 
user1804599
Won't call dtor.
 
no, but you can
 
user1804599
Alright, I added GCPtr.
 
like, if you really want an variable array on the stack you'll have to use alloca
or a static array with a provable uppoer bound
 
2:27 PM
@Columbo Chat search helps (I checked)
 
user1804599
Well, std::vector it is.
 
Falling and text input might be space invaders?
 
@Mr.kbok Depends on your definition. You could argue that the WASD used by most FPS is text input...
 
I'm thinking of something with fruit, maybe bananas.
 
2:37 PM
Flying fruits, with an orange body and banana wings. They fly across and down like space invaders. You hit the orange, the fruit blows up. You hit the bananas, fruit splits into two if there is space.
Banana splits!
 
@jalf, also, when we are talking being a dick each to the other, see levo.com/articles/career-advice/mean-girls-at-work
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Heh. Is that real or doctored?
Also, are kangaroos related to dogs?
 
user1804599
I want small vector.
 
@wilx Only by marriage.
 
@MartinJames lol, ok.
 
Scousers getting stuft. Gerrard redded off:)
 
2:45 PM
@wilx I have no idea
 
@JerryCoffin I assume you've built up quite the tolerance to alcohol.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit An enemy and an exile of the koala kingdom. He shall be destroyed immediately.
 
Do kangaroos make any sound?
With their mouth I mean
 
@Nooble I had quite a high tolerance at one time, but drink so little any more (a glass of wine once a month or so) that it's pretty much gone.
 
Fascinating that you got your answer when you still haven't asked a question. — Lightness Races in Orbit 5 secs ago
@Nooble ;p
 
@JerryCoffin Now there's an excuse to start drinking more!
 
2:52 PM
@Nooble I don't need an excuse. I just need fewer gout problems.
 
-3
Q: C++ beginner project ideas

Popentiu VladCan someone give me some project ideas for beginners?(In c++). I know: variables, if-else loop and while loop. I can put in documents(#include<fstream>). I can't make strings.(#incude<string>)

 
@AndyProwl They make sounds of fear and anguish when they get obliterated with the blades of a eucalyptus leaf.
 
> I can't make strings.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Look at the username
 
2:54 PM
> First off, a PetStore is not a farm.
 
Lol Vlad.
 
@bluefog I saw it
 
user1804599
NONIUS_RUNNER y u no work.
 
@JerryCoffin (Serious) Eucalyptus oil is known to treat gout and arthritis, apparently.
 
user1804599
Oh I cloned GH repo instead of downloading release.
 

« first day (1618 days earlier)      last day (3329 days later) »