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10:00 AM
but in any case, why does reality have to be absolute?
 
Reality itself seems to be quite non-changing.
 
it can be relative to a deeper reality
 
Corollary 1: We will never have absolute answers.
 
which is relative to a deeper reality
etc. etc.
"We will never have absolute answers." states something absolutely though
it states that you absolutely know that you will never have absolute answers
inherently contradictory, right?
 
So?
If that corollary is proven wrong by evidence then we can probably start thinking about a higher plane of existence or something like that.
idk
 
10:02 AM
i mean, how can you even be sure that the math you know is accurate? a lot of my philosophy comes from my understanding of mathematical incompleteness
 
Yet we choose to believe in a system because it works for us.
in most cases
 
but who knows, maybe there's some ridiculously deep conspiracy making us believe in that math without it being true
 
Well, going back to Corollary 2:
 
you can't disprove that everything about your thinking is being manipulated to keep you from seeing your blind spots
 
Yet, you cannot prove it as well.
What do you do with things you cannot prove?
 
10:03 AM
so maybe there are absolute answers, and they're obvious--the fact that they exist is just bind hidden from me
 
There are no absolute answers.
 
right i can't prove it, but i also can't prove that i can't prove things
 
Therefore, there are no absolute answers.
 
maybe i can and i'm just being led to believe i can't
but that's an absolute statement
 
As long as we live on this plane of reality, we will not have definitive answers.
 
10:04 AM
i would say: "i'm not sure of anything, including whether or not i'm sure of anything"
see i'm not even willing to make that statement
i don't think i can know that either
 
We can go to 0
 
i don't know, nor do i even know if i could know
 
Corollary 0: We cannot determine what is definitively absolute.
 
i know that i can't know is knowing something
and you're sure of this?
like, you believe this to be a self-evident platonic truth?
that there's no way your brain and thought patterns are being manipulated to make you believe that despite it not being true?
 
@StephenLin The very existence of lies renders human logic flawed.
 
10:06 AM
i mean, when you dream, lots of crazy things seems to make sense
 
Human logic is in of itself limited.
 
how do you know you're not just in a deeper dream
 
@StephenLin How do you know you're not?
 
i don't
but my lesson from not knowing is to not even be sure if knowing is possible
 
See, this is the problem with non-absolutes.
 
10:08 AM
not to be sure that knowing is impossible, except for the knowledge that knowing is impossible
 
We get nowhere.
But the reality is that we live in a world that requires some sort of absolute or distinct/discrete action.
"Will you marry me?"
"Will I pay the money as required at the store?"
 
and you have to use your best available heuristics to respond to those questions
 
There are a wide range of values that we must approximate using absolute.
Therefore, even though we cannot use absolutes, life has sort of demanded that we use them.
 
based on historical inputs and outputs you remember and your model of others behavior
 
Those that did not would've perished.
 
10:09 AM
i don't think you need absolutes
 
@StephenLin Of course.
@StephenLin Yes you do.
"Should I stay nearby this animal before it kills me?"
 
that's not an absolute, it's a subjective decision
 
@StephenLin Until you're dead.
 
based on a particular situation
 
Human have a set of ingrained biological values.
 
10:10 AM
i'm saying you don't need a top-down absolute model of reality to decide anything
i don't have one. i don't claim to know for sure that my mental model for how other human minds work is actually accurate, nor do i think i could ever know if it were
 
Descartes is in the Lounge, it seems.
 
Using our non-absolute logic paired with non-absolute data, we must create absolute decisions to problems that are approximate because we do not have the precision to create discrete values on a continuous function-curve of reactions.
Human are not precise to the level of atoms.
Therefore, we falter on the level of atoms.
 
i only know that people act relatively predictably based on that mental model and i seems to be able to predict personal rewards/punishments based on them
 
@StephenLin That mental model is just a model based on evidence---
Humanity's own tool of logic is derived from pattern recognition
The brain itself is designed to create discrete concepts from analog or continuous data.
 
and this is what i was bringing up the blue eyed islander problem to @chmod711telkitty for
i think it's possible that intelligence is infinite such that all things are the result of infinite foresight
 
10:13 AM
@StephenLin "What if we are all on a pre-determined path?" The answer is unsure, but at this point it doesn't matter.
 
just that we're playing out logic bombs infinitely deeply embedded
no it doesn't
 
I would conclude that the answer to some questions do not matter unless we care about them.
 
i didn't say it did
i only think its an interesting extreme to think about
 
It is.
 
i actually think that reality exists as a superposition of states consistent with my observations
(based on what i know about QM, which, of course, might be a trick being played on me, but whatever)
 
10:14 AM
I think what I think about reality doesn't inherently matter to me.
 
so every extreme situation consistent with the evidence actually exists
with some measure
in a universal probability distribution
 
I think we are looking in the wrong places.
We look into what life "is" rather than what it should be.
Knowledge vs. wisdom.
We look at the how and the what instead of the "why."
And I think "why" is the most important question.
 
yeah
 
Truth be told, I bet most people on this planet don't care too much about QM or such.
But the reality is that everyone deals with basic pains and heartbreak and loneliness.
 
i think a lot of what we think QM is going to be found to be a simulacrum of much more sublime concepts
 
10:17 AM
I have a simple question that I think doesn't warrant its own post @ SO. Suppose you have a color encoded as unsigned int, RGBA. Is there anything in the stdlib that would let me assign bits 24-32 to R and so on for GBA. I already do bitshifts but I think I read somewhere that there was something in the stdlib that would let you bind certain bits to a variable
 
@arynaq Ain't std::bind.
 
just like everything we knew about newtonian gravity was found to be a simulacrum of the beauty that is general relativity
so i'm not too attached to it
 
@arynaq No. Just keep the shifts.
 
@StephenLin I think that we should be looking more into true wisdom.
 
by the time we get to "end" of this physics thing (if it exists) everything people currently say about QM and philosophy will probably seem quaint
like how they used to talk about the 4 humors or stuff like that in greek times
 
10:19 AM
Doesn't seem to be bind, and yeah I can keep the shifts. But for the sake of learning (God knows when I might find an application for this), noone recalls this function?
 
Personally I think we'll start merging with religion or something.
 
that's what einstein said more or less
 
I am of the point that we will one day turn the current supernatural into science.
 
@arynaq There isn't.
 
i believe religions might have the end answers, just much more figuratively then we can possibly understand them
 
10:20 AM
Thanks, I might not remember correclty, saw it ages ago if at all :)
 
and science is the slow methodical process of getting to them and fully understanding them
 
As for your discussion, I am just waiting for in-cell fusion reactors so I can be a real life superman.
 
@StephenLin I think we think alike, sir!
 
i mean, the funny thing is that the Big Bang theory was proposed by a Catholic scientist and initially opposed because it was too "teleological"
kind of funny nowadays when atheists use that as their banner
not knowing the history of it
 
@StephenLin Funny thing is that the Big Bang theory is sort of more magic than Christianity's explanation right now.
Objectively, it's hard to say that a bang would have no cause.
They might say prior universes, yada yada yada but nobody nose.
 
10:21 AM
yeah, it's something you can right down on paper and in equations
 
Nobody nose
 
but really saying everything started with a causeless event just because is just such a extraordinary philosophic claim
i think physicists are willfully lying to themselves when they say things that "oh, that's just what it is and it makes sense from the math, so don't worry about what it means"
 
@StephenLin It's probably how their equations turned out.
 
like "oh, nothing happenned to cause the big bang, because by definition the big bang is when time started"
it's just a cop out
 
Ironically it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that God might create the universe through a Big Bang.
 
10:24 AM
but you have to explain how God was created then
 
The two theories are compatable until you realize the religion has canon that it must adhere to.
 
and i think the best explanation would be a recursive cycle
 
@StephenLin That's my opinion too.
 
God creating the universe which becomes God creating the universe
have you read asimov's "The Last Question"?
 
Nope
 
10:25 AM
oh, you should
i won't spoil it
 
I just read some Edgar Cayce, NDEs and that's mostly that.
 
are you in C++ lounge much? i'd like to talk to you after you read it
it's just a short story
you can probably finish it in 30 minutes, but i'm probably going to sleep now
(maybe even less than 30)
 
@StephenLin I'm here almost everyday lol
 
not when i was here two years ago
unless you changed sns
 
@Cinch It's far less magical.
 
10:26 AM
@StephenLin I've been here for about a year.
Aw... Hi Puppy.
 
oh well google "The Last Question"
 
Your profile pic is soo cute
 
it's online
 
@StephenLin I will... if I ever have the time lol
College is the time killer
 
haha i'm between jobs...i disappeared because i was working for apple
and i didn't want my statements to be taken as statements by apple
they're kind of anal about that
especially since i was working on compiler stuff (llvm, then swift)
my next company probably won't care so i'll be around again most likely
@Cinch it's a real short story--you'll like it, i'm sure
 
10:29 AM
Apple? Did they let you go?
 
i didn't like SF
i'm moving back to NYC
and working on trading systems
better pay, like the city more, etc.
 
Ah I see.
I like California too, but NYC is cool too.
Idk I'm here in Hawaii
 
ehh i am not a west coast person
i like subways and being surrounded by humanity all the time
feel lonely otherwise
 
Oh.
Hm.
I like the city too lol
 
er
 
10:34 AM
haha
nothing counts as city to me compared to manhattan
at least in the u.s.
it's really just not even on the same order of magnitude
anyway, just can't do car culture
 
Actually, Honolulu, HI used to have the 2nd worst traffic in the US
 
Apple is in cupertino
and leafy suburbs just feel so...
fake
curated
etc.
 
idk. I do like Hawaii, though.
 
spending 8+ hours a day there every day is just too much
even if i lived in sf
and then i'd have to commute too, from the city down to cupertino
anyway, off to sleep, i'll ping you next time i see you about The Last Question
it's seriously even shorter than i remembered it
so make sure to read it!
 
Done.
Cool.
 
10:42 AM
hmm
Objectivism is so mind-bogglingly stupid and clearly contradictory to what we observe in the real world that I have no idea how anyone can follow it
 
user1804599
> the belief that certain things, especially moral truths, exist independently of human knowledge or perception of them.
 
user1804599
lol
 
@Cinch oh, great (still here, just checking e-mail before sleeping)
@Cinch anyway, great story right? The universe converges toward a singular consciousness, which in turn creates the universe
that might be the ultimate logic bomb that we're playing out without knowing it
 
eh, not really.
 
user1804599
Matrix.
 
10:51 AM
it's just more "Man becomes God"
 
user1804599
Sexist.
 
@Puppy is that about "The Last Question"?
@Puppy or in response to something else entirely that I missed?
 
yes, it refers to the last question.
 
people are just physics
 
clearly true
 
10:54 AM
It's so true it couldn't be more boring.
 
so that the universe converges to a universe-spanning consciousness encompassing all matter is, i think, better described as "the universe converges toward a singular consciousness"
than "Man becomes God"
imho
we're just convenient vectors
since we transmit memes and have opposable thumbs to make things
 
even if dark energy is defeated, and gravity wins out in the end and everything converges, there's no requirement for any consciousness to be involved.
 
well, we have no idea how to extrapolate that far...physics always things its farther along in understanding the big picture than it is
 
well, that's blatantly not true.
 
umm, what?
 
10:56 AM
it's clear to everybody that we know some things, we don't know others, and we don't know how much is left to be discovered.
 
dirac was told not to study physics
because "we've got almost all of it already"
"just a few details left"
this was before relativity and QM
 
user1804599
Materialism master race.
 
anecdote != evidence.
 
it's common throughout the history of science though
just read anything written by a scientist from a previous generation
 
also, there's a big difference between "Random idiot says stupid thing" and "Consensus of scientists"
 
user1804599
10:57 AM
Except when the scientists are computer scientists.
 
in fact, the current consensus of scientists is that they hate the fact that it's so hard for them to find new physics beyond the Standard Model.
 
i'm saying there no way to know how far left we have to know
 
@StephenLin Everybody with two brain cells already knows that.
 
apparently there's too many people with less than those two brain cells then
 
that is unfortunately not new
 
10:59 AM
since people authoritatively make claims all the time
about what the universe will be at the end of time, etc.
 
who gives a shit what "people" do?
they do all sorts of dumb shit.
you wouldn't argue in favour of rape just because "people" commit rape.
which they do.
 
right and i'm telling you that imho making any claim at all either way about the end behavior of the universe with our current understanding of physics is silly
 

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