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10:00 PM
C++ would do such a thing with specializations
 
why is that terrible again
 
C++ wouldn't do that thing because it's stupid.
well, actually, to be fair, C++ has plenty of stupid.
let me rephrase that.
 
user1804599
You can implement default in C++.
 
I wouldn't do that thing in C++ because it's stupid.
 
wait...
 
user1804599
10:00 PM
It'll just fail to compile for some types.
 
@AlexM. pro
 
how is T whatever; different to T whatever = default(T);
 
user1804599
The former is an uninitialised variable.
 
it's not, except that T whatever; is even worse.
 
user1804599
Reading it before an assignment to it will fail to compile.
 
user1804599
10:01 PM
Unless (lol) it's a field.
 
user1804599
Then it's default-initialised.
 
The default(T) gets you a useless value
so useless
 
It's sometimes useful
 
it's not like value-initialization in C++
 
user1804599
Well, if you want to sell C# to Java programmers, you have to lower yourself to the level of a Java programmer, and thus introduce stupid crap.
 
10:02 PM
both of them are pretty useless really
 
Ell
C++ has polymorphism in the form of overloading functions on subtypes, right?
 
overloading is polymorphism, more or less, subtypes don't need to be involved
 
Ell
Oops i meant overriding
But let's go with overloading
 
the c++ equivalent to "default(T)" is T whatever = decltype(whatever)();
 
user1804599
@Ell Virtual functions are polymorphic because they have multiple types. Those types differ in the type of the hidden this argument.
 
Ell
10:04 PM
So foo(int) and foo(double) can do different things
What is the type of foo
 
they can do, but that's stupid.
foo is not an object and doesn't have a type.
 
user1804599
@Ell foo has two types, int -> T and double -> T.
 
@Ell the type of a void foo(int), foo, is void(int), which is to be read as int -> void
 
user1804599
And if it behaves differently depending on the argument type, then no parametricity for you!
 
Tragedy
 
user1804599
10:06 PM
Overloading is horrible.
 
user1804599
It's literally special-casing.
 
eh not really
 
Horrible tragedy
 
good overloads all do the same thing.
 
10:07 PM
in many cases, you're basically doing the same thing for several different input types, so they're generalizing rather than special-casing.
 
they are casing. not necessarily special casing
 
Ell
@elyse I see
 
@Elyse good luck working with a single type in your code
 
user1804599
Lack of overloading does not imply lacking types.
 
10:08 PM
yup. polymorphism is apparently bad
 
@Elyse So literally C?
 
Ell
But what about when you need special casing to interact with the outside imperfect world?
 
@Puppy that depends somewhat on the dimension of "doing" that you are looking at
 
Everything must be 1000% generic~~~
 
user1804599
No, polymorphism is wonderful and allows great code reuse.
 
10:08 PM
certainly to_int(float) and to_int(string) are doing different things and the same thing, depending on the point of view
 
@Elyse well. You don't like when different implementations happen for different types.
So, you can't have that then
 
Who came up with the idea of libGL.a being capital ugh
 
user1804599
@sehe Write different functions.
 
The denseness. It's too much for me
 
user1804599
But don't make the same function behave differently for different types.
 
10:09 PM
wooooooot Life beats Classic with the last two games being amazing Life style, just run in with some roaches and lings
 
Ell
But you need to in the real world
 
Why is rightfold trying to outbartek the bratek
 
user1804599
No, you don't.
 
user1804599
See, for example, type classes.
 
One of these days I'm gonna write :words: on this uberpurist design nonsense
 
10:09 PM
Is also static polymorphism
 
Ell
How is that parametric?
 
user1804599
Remove the implicit passing of dictionaries and it will be more clear.
 
wat
 
Who needs brains when you can have Enterprise Refactoring Tools
 
user1804599
add_int :: int -> int -> int
add_float :: float -> float -> float

generic_add :: forall a. (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a
 
user1804599
10:11 PM
All type classes do is make the (a -> a -> a) argument implicit.
 
what's forall
 
Ell
I see
 
why is that in the type signature
 
user1804599
@milleniumbug It means that generic_add is defined for all types a.
 
Not sure what is going on here <TimeSpan />
 
10:12 PM
@milleniumbug Because it helps you see
(it's implicit, including it is dumb)
 
@Elyse big f-ing meh. How is it implemented
 
Ell
What is the difference between a -> a and forall a -> a
 
user1804599
In fact, OCaml does this without implicit passing. It works well, is just a little inconvenient.
 
@CatPlusPlus what is implicit there and how?
 
user1804599
10:12 PM
@Ell Nothing; Haskell infers foralls.
 
generic_add does not take a function as argument afaik
 
Ell
Right I see
 
aaah
 
But it lets you obfuscate your code so it's helpful
 
user1804599
@sehe In Haskell it looks at instance declarations matching the inferred types.
 
user1804599
10:13 PM
For a more general solution, look at Scala or the implicit calculus.
 
hint: it can't magically know to call add_float or add_int.
 
user1804599
It can if you add implicit arguments to the language.
 
generic_add is just an overloaded function
 
user1804599
If you don't, then you have to explicitly pass either add_int or add_float, or something else with the correct type.
 
user1804599
generic_add add_int 1 2
generic_add add_float 3 4
generic_add (\a b -> a ++ b) "Hello, " "world!"
 
10:14 PM
Make everything more general until they make their own army
 
hmm
I've done a shit which is so buoyant, the force of the water when flushing the toilet is not enough to flush it.
this is a new situation.
 
Shocking correlation to extreme rate of actually finishing projects
 
@Puppy good job, it's evolving
creationists, checkmate
 
user1804599
Scala example: ideone.com/V2dH1J
 
The problem is, I generallly don't think Elyse is dumb.
I'm not sure just how brilliant (s)he is either though.
The hand-waving is too strong and that might actually be a big part of it.
 
user1804599
10:19 PM
It solves the same problems overloading solves, but without all the problems overloading introduces, such as the set of implementations being closed, and the overloadingness not being part of the type.
 
ugh if I leave the youtube player alone after the song ends for 5 mins when I come back I can't play it anymore
 
Often though, there is considerably more hidden behind the lazy facade of handwaving. It would be so helpful if lobsert organized its own thoughts so it could actually make its point
 
why is this browser so BAD
 
@AlexM. Which one?
 
@набиячлэвэлиь shitshit (firefox)
 
10:19 PM
@AlexM. click it back a little (on the time progress bar thingy)
 
@Elyse ok that's clearer now
 
@набиячлэвэлиь this
 
@sehe Seems to me like it's mostly a lack of perspective- that sometimes it's not worth it to make something theoretically perfect.
 
Most times
 
10:20 PM
@Elyse but haskell does not modify the type of generic functions, does it?
 
Ell
so what would you do if you Want to pass something addable to a function
 
@Puppy Coming from the puppy that is some strong shit
 
user1804599
@ᐅJohannesSchaub-litbᐊ What do you mean?
 
@набиячлэвэлиь I'll try it next time
 
@набиячлэвэлиь That clip has some watchable moments though
 
10:21 PM
@sehe How so? I often espouse the view that sometimes the most perfect solution isn't worth the cost.
 
@Elyse adding a function parameter for every class function you call
 
Ell
(a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a
 
which will implicitly be passed an instance function.
year the first
 
Ell
So this takes two addable as and returns an a
 
10:21 PM
Aaaaaa!
 
Ell
Hmm
 
I have not seen haskell does modify a generic add function to have such additional function-valued parameters
 
@Puppy You do. But I seem to remember different times. Or, well, times when absolutes were a more oft favoured debating vehicle for you :)
 
user1804599
@ᐅJohannesSchaub-litbᐊ The only thing it adds implicitly is type class dictionaries.
 
@sehe Well, then I spent two years working on a nothing game engine with nothing to show for it. And a year or so working on Wide and not getting anywhere because I wouldn't play ball with Clang.
so I decided I was sick of not getting anywhere.
 
10:22 PM
Don't forget my favourite awe-inspiration: SHA2 solver
 
eh
honestly that was an interesting project that I only paused because I didn't have enough jiggerbytes of RAM to run the latest iteration ;p
 
user1804599
class C a where
    f :: a -> Int

g :: C a => a -> Int
g x = f x

-- is as if

g :: C_dict a -> a -> Int
g c_dict x = c_dict.f x
 
Meanwhile they've been getting at SHA1 pretty well
Today is a ship wreck. Not even gonna try i.imgur.com/pLQ4RCZ.png
Good night peeps
 
really, since I transformed SHA2 into a generic boolean formula, it was more of a general theorem prover thing.
 
Ell
@elyse yeah fair enuff
 
10:24 PM
@sehe rip
 
the fact that it came from SHA2 wasn't that important.
 
I somewhat understood that. It's way to mathy for me anyways
 
besides
 
user1804599
Because passing these dictionaries explicitly is annoying (see OCaml functors ugh).
 
I made measurable progress
 
10:25 PM
@Elyse i see what you mean.
so by ":t g" we will see the type of the dictionary printed?
 
user1804599
Nah, explicit dictionary passing is done after type checking, not before it.
 
IIRC, a 256-bit SHA2 output coming from an at-most-512-bit input has only 100k boolean states.
 
@sehe Why the -250?
 
and I solved I think the first 40k of them?
 
10:26 PM
@ElimGarak it says so right on the tin
 
Oh, fuck, I just saw the red.
 
:D
 
@sehe ... you got a negative bounty?
or lost yours?
 
Really, I'm dog tired. Cheers
 
Night!
 
10:27 PM
@AlexM. Nah. It's just how they work. You spend rep
Bye
 
@AlexM. Created one
 
aaah ok
 
Talking about encryption, the class I help teach (TA) implemented AES128 on an FPGA in SysVerilog. Anybody have any good ideas for test questions?
 
no.
 
"Why is your implementation shit"
 
10:28 PM
literally not one single person in this entire universe has any good ideas.
 
you should search for "AES128 on an FPGA in SysVerilog"
 
Sorry my mistake!
 
Ell
Ah lord
These lefties
 
In the US we call them southpaws or communists
 
10:33 PM
heeey
 
@Mikhail you spawned abyx
 
@AlexM. lol no
 
Hi :)
 
:-/
 
has anyone ever used a TI C55x ..?
 
10:43 PM
nope
 
@Nooble what's happening
 
@melak47 nothing much, why?
 
The intro scene of Octopussy is ludicrously unrealistic
But then again, it's James Bond…
 
@Nooble did someone cancel the GTA plans?
 
@melak47 Nope.
I'll be able to go play in like half an hour.
 
10:51 PM
@Columbo imma watch spectre next friday
cant wait
 
Ell
Does category theory relate to type theory?
 
> I TALK TO MY IPHONE 6 PLUS TO COMPOSE TEXT MESSAGES, and I’m not alone. Many people are abandoning typing, which can be hard on the hands. Why let your fingers take a pounding when you can get what you want by speaking?
while I do not disagree that talking is easier
taking a pounding sounds a bit extreme
lol
 
user1804599
@Ell Yes.
 
hmm
why on earth would you speech-to-text to text that to someone when you could just send them the audio directly.
 
10:55 PM
lol good point
maybe you can't do audio emojis?
 
Ell
Should I learn type theory or category theory first?
 
@Ell ping luc danton
or check out math.stackexchange's chatroom
 
@Ell For what
They're different things
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus for interest
 
11:00 PM
woooot
sOs 3-0'd Rogue in very short order
now sOs vs Life will start promptly
 
user1804599
@Ell uh, depends on what you want to do I guess. ask on Mathematics chat.
 
user1804599
I know very little about CT.
 
@Nooble My ETA on the download is like 45 minutes
 
@набиячлэвэлиь You can't create a social club account without a valid key.
 
@Nooble the rockstar thingy?
 
Ell
11:04 PM
I know a non-zero amount of type theory whereas I know 0 category theory
so I'll go with that
 
@набиячлэвэлиь Like.
You can't play without a valid key.
You link your account with it.
 
theoretically
ETA is >2h again
just work goddamnyou
 
It won't
 
~~~technology~~~
 
11:08 PM
Damn it, nab, you freeloader! :P
 
@ElimGarak Why do you consider me someone who sits around and dosen't work and mooches off their family and steals all their moms hard earned money to do nothing all day and contribute shit to society. Someone who is a waste of air and takes up valuable space on the planet earth?
 
@AlexM. I made a repo.
 
holy shit you also made a gif
cool
get that game done :D
 
That gif is sexy
but -10000 for CMake
 
are ya really gonna go through it in C++?
with unity you could've jumped at the gameplay directly
 
11:12 PM
@AlexM. Yes :D
 
ok then, extra points for it
 
@набиячлэвэлиь Sorry it's going to use Icicle.
And that uses CMake.
 
inb4 project rightfold-dumped because C++
 
@набиячлэвэлиь so you're downloading the game but have no way to play it? :/
 
11:15 PM
@melak47 dunno
Let's see how it plays out
 
user1804599
11:33 PM
> Smart cars, smart TVs, smart phones.
How about they start making smart people?
 
rekt
 
@набиячлэвэлиь ETA still ~1.5 hours?
 
what are you downloading?
 
11:37 PM
and why wouldn't you be able to play it?
 
(illegal copy)
 
Guess
 
It's not a copy... yet
 
Well, at least he'll be able to enjoy SP :P
 
Xeo
@sbi Indeed. Though I'm not totally happy with how it looks at small size.
 
user1804599
11:41 PM
I'm listening to a song called "Fuck your grandmother in her stoma."
 
ah I forgot I can't use async tasks in unity
welp
 
std::async?
With Qt, I still use std::threads etc
 
unity the game engine
 
but the language?
 
C#
 
11:45 PM
Can't you use the naive C# tasks?
 
that's what I cannot use
maybe I can solve something with coroutines
I just want to do some TCP/IP communication in the background
 
@Mikhail is it compatible? can you get a QThread for QThread::currentThread for it?
 
actually I'm sure there must be packages for easy tcp/ip on the asset store
 
@AlexM. FFI into C++'s std::thread
 
and start a separate eventloop for a std thread?
 
11:46 PM
@набиячлэвэлиь lol if I have to use threads then I'll just use regular .net threads
I can do that
the idea is to not use threads
 
@AlexM. Probably not
 
@набиячлэвэлиь I just want an easy way to get to work and not spend time on silly details, fuck me right?
 
@ᐅJohannesSchaub-litbᐊ Yeah, it works for 95% of the tasks you can imagine. I don't like QThreads for my applications because I often have hardware devices where I need to manage the lifetime in way that is more precise than deleteLater() allows.
 
11:52 PM
@melak47 I could play if you want to now.
Go on mumble :)
 
ugh mumble. gotta install that first :)
 
all these different species of bears on the globe
they're like skins
you have like the basic level 1 bear, say, brown bear and then other bears
 
@TonyTheLion Back. I went to visit a friend and some flats.
 
the panda could be a level 30 exotic elite bear
 
@Nooble Me too man, me too.
@AlexM. Thats @sehe
 
11:55 PM
@Borgleader Hehe.
 
@Borgleader sehe is level 99 elite white bear
with a passive +100 bonus to health and spirit
 
hahahahaha <3 puns
 
robot roach
 

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