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2:00 AM
Okay I got a GPU question. My prefix sum performance goes up by switching float to float4on nvidia hardware, I am told that 128 bits is preferred. But why exactly?
 
More data in flight
 
@orlp It's racist (but not discriminatory) to assume a black guy is a criminal. It only becomes discrimination when/if you take some action based on that assumption (e.g., cops pull a guy over because he's black).
 
Ell
@lala to an insignificant extent IMHO
 
@JerryCoffin fair enough
@Lalaland so, what exactly prevents your predictor from preferring white people over black people?
 
Prefix sum is of low compute intensity but high memory intensity
 
2:00 AM
because statistically it would improve accuracy
 
user406009
@orlp Nothing.
 
So you want to fetch as much data per thread as possible
 
user406009
That's why this topic is important.
 
@Lalaland so your predictor is racist?
 
user406009
Are racist predictors ethical?
 
2:01 AM
@Lalaland no
 
Ell
@orlp depends what you mean by racist
 
Are branch predictors racist?
 
Ell
I really think we should define terms
 
@Lalaland you have it backwards
 
Does that explain it @Mikhail?
 
user406009
2:02 AM
racist = making a judgement based on race.
 
Ell
The Socratic method is a great technique
 
racist predictors are unethical because racism is unethical
 
Ell
Incorrect
Racism is not unethical
 
user406009
@orlp Some people claim that predictors are ethically neutral. We should always pick the best predictor.
 
@Ell they are by my morals
mine might differ from yours, but shrug
@Lalaland that leads to ethnic cleansing, among other things
 
2:03 AM
@GregorMcGregor In both cases the memory access should be the same right? The only thing I think is that the float4 instruction is actually one op (instead of 4) and therefore can be fed into the GPU's ALU faster. Switching from float to float4 appears to be recommended by many books, but why?
 
it's a too simplistic model that leads to unethical behavior
 
Ell
Do you think differentiating by attractiveness is unethical?
 
@Ell theoretically, yes
 
@orlp I would say discrimination is unethical. Racism is...just stupid.
 
it's really hard to avoid though
 
user406009
2:03 AM
That one is really hard. Because attractiveness is both under and outside your control.
 
@Mikhail No, you're requesting 4x as much data per thread, that makes a significant difference for IO bound kernels. There is no difference between instructions on float4 and float
 
user406009
And there are jobs where you need to present a public face.
 
@JerryCoffin well, any racist predictor put to use immediately becomes discriminatory
I guess they're not unethical in of itself
just when used to make decisions
 
Ell
Is it racist to suggest black men should wear more sun cream than white men because they are black?
 
@Ell it's the opposite
 
2:04 AM
@Ell Pretty sure it's the other way around.
 
Ell
Oops. I meant less :L
 
@GregorMcGregor But the total requested is the same? In both cases you request N amount of data?
 
and no, that's just a rational policy that doesn't hurt anyone
 
Ell
It's 3am cut me some slack :P
@orlp why isn't it racist?
 
user406009
It can be hard to tell between rational policy and racism though.
 
2:05 AM
@Ell You should sleep.
Or not.
 
Ell
(Hint define racism)
 
@Ell because no one is being disadvantaged?
 
the longest day begins
 
@Mikhail Total requested is the same yes
 
it's not a matter of race
 
Ell
2:05 AM
I cannot participate in this discussion if we do not define terms
 
user406009
@Ell I would say that is both racist and true.
 
it's just a matter of rational reasoning how skin color affects skin protection
 
Ell
/leave
 
it's not racist (although some people will automatically focus on the race aspect), it's a fact
 
@Mikhail BTW that would make a good question
@LucDanton Hellooooooo
 
Ell
2:06 AM
(The discussion that is)
 
user406009
Do racist ideas have to be incorrect?
 
user406009
Is the incorrectness part of the definition of racist?
 
My racist ideas are always correct
 
racism, AFAIK is the belief that one race is superior/inferior to another
 
I feel bad for people who are so white they can't go outside without wearing sunscreen :P
gingers usually, they get roasted
 
Ell
2:07 AM
@orlp AFAIK? Is that because you are undecided as of yet?
 
@GregorMcGregor Okay so when doing float1 the thread request's data and warp times out, when the data arrives the thread eventually is serviced. The only advantage that comes to mind is if data is read in 128 bit increments independent if you like it or not. Then you would be wasting 3/4 of the data coming in.
 
user406009
@orlp So the sunscreen statement is sorta racist. "Hey whitey, why don't you grab some more sunscreen you white fuck. You can't even go outside loser."
 
white skin no longer provides significant evolutionary advantages
 
@Ell no, that's because definitions vary, and that's the definition I see most commonly used, and it's what I use
 
@orlp I'm not sure it's even always unethical. For example, if I go to the doctor with a certain set of symptoms, it's reasonable for the doctor to decide that based on my race those symptoms are probably not caused by sickle-cell disorder. Yes, it's possible that I (mostly western European background) could have sickle-cell disorder--but the possibility is quite remote in my case. For somebody of largely African descent, (to give only one example) that chance rises dramatically.
 
Ell
2:08 AM
@orlp but you should pick a definition for a discussion
 
@JerryCoffin but that's not racist
 
@Mikhail I should see the code for a thorough explanation but yes essentially you are wasting bandwidth
 
nothing really provides evolutionary advantages anymore, since modern society makes an attempt to care for everyone
 
nothing in that implies a superiority
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin Of course things become more interesting when you are going to a bank to get a loan ...
 
2:08 AM
@Ell well, I wanted to be polite
but if you say I get to pick, well that's my choice
 
Ell
I see :)
I appreciate the sentiment
 
ITT people picking their definitions for well-known terms
 
Ell
@GregorMcGregor they aren't well known really
That is not what my definition of racism would be
 
Open a dictionary
racism (rāˈsĭzˌəm)►
n. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
 
Ell
Dictionaries don't define words
3
 
2:10 AM
that’s true
 
Quote of the year
 
user406009
Feels > reals
 
well @GregorMcGregor I personally find the defition as found on glorious wikipedia unsatisfactory
so that rules that out - or does it?
 
I personally find paying taxes unsatisfactory
so that rules that out - or does it?
 
@GregorMcGregor why?
 
Ell
2:11 AM
@gregor point out to me a word that was defined by a dictionary :P
 
Koalas > Humans.
 
Ell
And not a human
 
user406009
@GregorMcGregor Those two definitions are the ones we are arguing between.
 
you don't want education, a sewer system, roads, health care, defense, police, a justice system, etc?
 
user406009
2:11 AM
I usually use definition 2. Other people focus more on definition 1.
 
I want to be able to walk freely naked and take a poop anywhere I wish
 
@nick You think so? I was given an evolutionary advantage: big ears.
 
I think it's useless to consider discrimination part of racism
 
user406009
@GregorMcGregor You can do that right now.
 
Racism is a set of beliefs.
 
user406009
2:12 AM
The world is your oyster.
 
I can't because the system!
 
Discrimination is when acting on such beliefs (but not limited to racism).
 
user406009
@orlp Do those beliefs have to be incorrect?
 
@GregorMcGregor Not to be racist, but I believe one of the common places to do that is India?
 
@Lalaland I believe so, because I do not believe in superiority of races.
Other people might disagree.
 
2:13 AM
@Mysticial And China (mainland, in the poor regions)
 
And find jews, blacks, pakis, slavs, gypsies, or whatever, inferior.
 
I never understood why people discriminated on race and not on SO reputation points
That's much more objective
 
user406009
I don't believe in the superiority of races. However, I do believe the odds of a black being a criminal are higher due to socioeconomic factors.
 
Personally I would never engage with a <10k rep user even with a 20 foot pole
 
@Lalaland stfu 23kfag
@Lalaland the latter is not a belief
 
2:14 AM
 
Ell
@GregorMcGregor you already broke that rule :P
 
user406009
My "criminal-o-meter" is technically more accurate if I include race as one of the factors.
 
@Lalaland no, it is not
 
@Ell you are a speshul snoflek
 
only when you talk about a large group of individuals
you can't extrapolate statistical truths to a single individual
 
Ell
2:15 AM
<3 I should start a tumblr then I suppose
 
because my "sex-o-meter" is technically more accurate if I predict you have half a cock and one boob
 
@Lalaland that’s quite honest of you to tell us mr. racist fuck
 
user406009
You can't extrapolate them to individuals, but you can increase the accuracy of your predictors.
 
also
 
user406009
It's a very thorny ethical issue.
 
2:17 AM
I strongly prefer 'innocent until proven guilty' over 'well, statistically my arse guess is more likely to be right than wrong'
@Lalaland it's not though
it's simply what morals you choose to live by
it's not a rational discussion with an answer
 
user406009
@orlp We all have to act on limited information.
 
user406009
We don't know everything.
 
user406009
When a bank gives someone a loan, they are not going to know every single detail about that person's life.
 
I think there might be some correlation between being an elite troll & being single.
 
user406009
They have to make extrapolations and guesses.
 
2:18 AM
@chmod711telkitty eyy gurl
 
Ell
What does crime o meter predict? "Will this person commit a crime in the next year?" For ex?
 
user406009
@Ell Yes.
 
user406009
Of course there are much better predictors.
 
user406009
For example, you could run a background check on the person.
 
user406009
But you can't know everything.
 
Ell
2:19 AM
Then I think race would improve accuracy
 
I don't have a problem with that, though.
I have a problem with how this predictor might be used.
If you now use this predictor to, say, hire candidates, it becomes discrimination.
As I said before, it doesn't make sense to include discrimination in the racism definition.
The predictor isn't racist.
But you can still be discriminatory without racist thoughts.
 
Ell
So its either hire someone statistically more likely to steal office equipment, or hire someone statistically unlikely. Who do you choose?
 
user406009
I know a lot of people joke about quotes like "facts are racist", but I think it is important to understand both sides.
 
I mean being an elite troll is very fun & you get all the attention you desire most of the times while entertaining ppl. I am just not sure I really want to be single for the rest of my life any more. Maybe I am getting older, dumber & weaker.
 
@Mikhail yeah better bandwidth usage and ILP
Each thread does 4x more work
 
2:22 AM
@GregorMcGregor But each thread requests 4x more work!!!!
 
Remember that the threads do not execute vector instructions though!
 
@chmod711telkitty you sure have changed
 
Yeah she's lost weight
 
fucking savage
 
2:23 AM
@Mikhail Well yes
 
although, I guess since you're white now you score better on @Lalaland's machine
 
@GregorMcGregor So why is it faster? Its got to be something about 128bits being either cached or overlapped with computation but I don't know. Its really bothering me.
 
user406009
@orlp I just want to note that I believe use of such a predictor is immoral.
 
@chmod711telkitty if you don't want to be single anymore
you gotta change permissions from 711 man
too restrictive
men want to handle the goods
read/write the "file" if you know what I mean
 
@Mikhail You agree that prefix-sum is memory bound, right?
 
2:25 AM
@GregorMcGregor Yup
 
So, performance is limited by how much data you get to process
In other words you want to keep feeding your kernel as much data as possible
 
@Mikhail what are you doing?
prefix-sum?
 
You can have each thread request a float (4 bytes), that's the naive solution, it works
A whole warp would therefore request 128 bytes, wait for the transaction to complete, do the sum, request another 128 bytes, and so on
The kernel time is dominated by how long you wait for the data, not the sum computation
 
@GregorMcGregor what is he computing
 
A prefix sum
 
2:27 AM
@orlp I'm trying to figure out why float4 runs faster than float1 for a prefix sum
 
So if you have each thread request 4 times as much memory, your whole warp requests 512 bytes of data, 16 bytes per thread
 
but do you want to fill another array with prefix sums?
or do you want to set up a data structure where you can query them?
or
 
You agree that this is going to be more intensive bandwidth usage so far?
 
@GregorMcGregor I don't agree on this point. In the float1 case the same number of memory requests are issued, all be it by different threads.
 
@Mikhail have you tried fenwick trees?
A Fenwick tree or binary indexed tree is a data structure providing efficient methods for calculation and manipulation of the prefix sums of a table of values. It was proposed by Peter Fenwick in 1994. Fenwick trees primarily solve the problem of balancing prefix sum calculation efficiency with element modification efficiency. The efficiency of these operations comes as a trade-off - greater efficiency in prefix sum calculation is achieved by pre-calculating values, but as more values are pre-calculated more must be re-calculated upon any modification to the underlying value table. Fenwick trees...
 
2:29 AM
Memory requests are per warp
 
@orlp My problem is more of understanding a hardware issue...
 
oh
 
There are 4 times as many memory requests
 
well fuck me for offering real-world solutions then :P
 
2:30 AM
but prefix sum computation sounds WAAAAAYYYY too cheap to go to GPU for
 
not really, parallel algorithms make extensive use of prefix sums
 
you'll spend all your time pumping data in/out your GPU, and not computing jack shit
 
yes that's why you need to maximize IO
Do you agree so far @Mikhail
 
user406009
Is GPU IO faster than CPU speed?
 
@GregorMcGregor But not in total, and its total bandwidth thats limited right? Each request queues up at the memory controller. The same number of requests are made at global memory?
 
2:33 AM
But they take longer to be made
 
@orlp So for a 5MP floating point image a prefix sum takes about 4ms on a mid range card. Anyways, most of the time your data is already on the GPU, so getting off is expensive, keeping it there is expected.
 
Instead of having a warp make 4x128 requests then stall, you need to have a warp make a 1x128 request, stall, move onto the next, stall, etc
 
Chmod 777 telkitty
Wait ... Sounds 2 ez :x
 
And then, when the requests complete, your kernel can exploit better ILP
Because it has enough data to process without stalling
In fact you could probably try and fetch more than just a float4
 
@GregorMcGregor Issuing the requests should take the same amount of time in both cases unless there is some amalgamated instruction to issue a 128bit grab. BUT even then are we really limited by the speed of request issuing rather than the speed of these requests being serviced?
 
2:36 AM
Haven't you read Vasily Volkov's slides?
 
No GPU computing is more of a hobby I took up when I got bored of masturbation.
 
@orlp Yes, I read this one, and its among the articles that uses float4 instead of the scalar version with little as to why
 
Same reason
More data per thread => more parallel work
 
2:39 AM
` Lichterman, David. 2007. Course project for UIUC ECE 498 AL: Programming Massively Parallel Processors. Wen-Mei Hwu and David Kirk, instructors. courses.ece.uiuc.edu/ece498/al.`
 
meh, I don't think I can further help
 
Hah, thats fucking class I took like 5 years ago
 
I'm pretty much a noob when it's concerning stuff once it's on the GPU
 
I'm kinda pissed GPU gems is citing a class website (I took) instead of an actual source...
 
@Nooble u r very speshul
 
2:44 AM
@nick I know.
 
It's Skorbut.
@fredoverflow You should host it on GitHub.
@nick Have you done any progress on flynotes?
 
@Nooble yes in the future
I made a github org if that counts :)
 
@nick We're going to have to go back to it then.
@nick Linky
 
2:52 AM
Yeah my plan was to get the ball rolling sometime this week but I've been trying to build a profile/portfolio page too
 
LINK
 
still haven't figured out the design its making me so mad
 
@nick Oh dude I have some pictures I took that you can use for a portfolio thing.
 
I spent like 10 minutes on that icon i am so proud
 
An icon I helped design you mean.
I think I deserve 75% share.
 
2:54 AM
the icon would look better without the blue background IMO but I needed to get that blue in somewhere
company colors you know
 
I know, I know.
Look at that @nick.
Perfect for that really cheesy portfolio.
 
damn dude that's way too busy
yo
go to my user page on github.io tell me what you think
that was a temp design, I'm starting over with something else but I might bring some elements over from that
also watch the link you get redirected too :)
 
@nick You see I knew you would say this. So I took another photo:
@nick Ok.
 

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