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11:03 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What, so we can steal his wallet?
 
The good news: lunch fixed my internet issues
4
 
lunch is an useful multitool
it fixes both your stomach and your internet
 
hmmm
lunch you say
 
good
just wanted to know that I could get behind you on this getting behind bartek thing.
 
11:14 AM
lol
How's your jobhunting @Puppy? Still recovering?
 
officially, I resume next week
 
Xeo
11:27 AM
@StackedCrooked yes :(
 
ffs, getting kicked out of office at 5.15pm today. just when I typically hit my stride. non-software people are fucking cunts
@BartekBanachewicz lol "recovering"
 
@Puppy and unofficially?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit his jobhunting is recovering with him
@jalf unoficially he's grinding KSP
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, people have a tendency to exaggerate. There are some really good episodes close to the end. Everything related to Tyrion's trial is really cool.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was expecting a complete cast replacement every season or so, like in Spooks
 
user1804599
11:37 AM
My leg itches but I'm wearing the tightest pants ever. :<
 
do you really mean "pants"?
 
user1804599
pantsu ;3
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit But then you'd lose so many cool characters :(
(Tyrion's da best)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's annoying
I hated it when they changed the cast of Atlas Shrugged
for the Dagny specifically
uh oh
my game desdoc has 6 levels of nesting
I suppose details matter
 
@BartekBanachewicz bleh, you actually liked that randian craziness?
 
11:45 AM
> I returned to Haskell for my personal projects from Erlang for the simple virtue of Haskell's amazing type system. Erlang gives you a ton of tools to handle when things go wrong. Haskell gives you tools to keep you from going wrong in the first place.
@Mgetz yep
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what I heard was happening!
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeahhhhhhhhh
@BartekBanachewicz yes it is
but I never thought I'd end up calling GoT slow and, well, it kinda is. and not necessarily in that SGU-like, "I don't mind at all" way
S3 dragged
 
@sehe omg here too!
 
do you honestly like that?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit IRTA Penisa
 
11:48 AM
YOU'RE NOT THAT FAR FROM THE TRUTH
to be honest.
I'm surprised spotify contains romanian music but is not available in romania
 
oh bummer
I was really happy when it came to Poland
 
@jalf Unofficially I'll probably resume later today.
 
> probably
> later
 
does anyone know a good OpenSSL guide or tutorial for TLS?
SSL/TLS
 
Ukraine banned Communist Party of Ukraine. Viva democracy!
 
11:58 AM
i feel like im flying blind trying to use their API in my C++ app
 
@nedshares use ASIO.
 
boost? i wish i could. this is a work project and we're using openssl. but i may ask if we can try asio
 
what the hell
I have to provide the password for my machine when leaving
is this a standard practice?
 
no
 
@BartekBanachewicz no? I just press Win+L
 
12:00 PM
lol guys
leaving the company, not locking the screen (should've been more explicit)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah. They own your machine and the data stored on it.
 
ah, I got it
then it's normal
sort of. I'd just change password to "qwerty"
 
hmm I have to sign the form acknowledging what I know about the company and that I won't use it as a competitor
that makes sense
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz just delete all data.
 
however it's not like they can do anything with you if you forgot your password.
 
user1804599
12:02 PM
Then you can set a password and provide it.
 
@nedshares don't use OpenSSL, if you must use something not Boost ASIO use NSS
 
thanks for suggestion. i will bring this up with team
it's an old legacy app
 
@Abyx well I do know the password to my computer :P
 
@Mgetz lol nss
 
I just found it interesting that they might want it
 
12:03 PM
@nedshares NSS is actively developed, OpenSSL is... well you've seen the news
 
I'd just wipe the disk clean
 
user1804599
> Money cannot buy love, nor even friendship.
 
user1804599
Is that grammatically correct?
 
user1804599
Never seen "even" used that way.
 
lol
 
12:04 PM
@rightfold Correct. It places friendship on a lower level than love
 
user1804599
@ParkYoung-Bae You're Correan. You don't speak English.
 
I speak french and it's the exact same structure
Ask a native if you want confirmation of my infinite knowledge
 
Nice Typescript is moving to github
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's some gruesome imagery
 
@BartekBanachewicz you would
 
12:06 PM
@Mgetz now the Russians/Americans/Koreans/... just have to DoS/block/filter/censor/prohibit github and all is well
 
sigh people hacking around facebook suckiness
 
@sehe whaddya mean?
 
yes facebook is not a replacement for Discourse glad you've finally noticed
 
user1804599
12:07 PM
> Microsoft + PHP
 
@Mgetz IOW CodePlex is dead
@rightfold god what
 
where the fuck is CHAR_BIT defined
 
@BartekBanachewicz depends on the team... but largely
 
that's like saying "Microsoft + AIDS"
we're open about the diseases you see
 
> Defined in header <climits>
 
12:09 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ask your IDE. Oh wait. Ask your module. Oh wait.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz inb4 PHP .NET
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit <limits> or something
 
@rightfold see that doesn't make sense at all
they should focus MSOS on Haskell :F
give us more libraries and support
 
I just changed 32/CHAR_BIT into 4. It's only an assertion on Coliru for a snippet I won't use for more than five minutes. But it annoyed me.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you can make me run for 12 miles using that picture. (It'll probably kill me)
 
user1804599
12:10 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Haskell#!
 
H#
ahh that's sexy
 
user1804599
Sounds like 8#.
 
kinda
no but really MS has it's own H# already and it's called F#
 
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ tattoo starting to get real itchy healing
 
12:12 PM
@thecoshman did you tatoo dickbutt on yourself?
 
@thecoshman I hope you have tattooed "LOUNGED" on your forehead.
 
@thecoshman why should I use Erlang for my game
 
@thecoshman what did u get
 
user1804599
Because it has five hundred million simultaneous players.
 
@BartekBanachewicz because it fits the style of game you are making, and have cleanly separated the front and back end
@Jefffrey no
@Jefffrey sorry to disappoint you
@ParkYoung-Bae bats, it's a WIP though ¬_¬ so I have more pain to look forward to
 
user1804599
12:14 PM
You should always cleanly separate front and back end.
 
@thecoshman :c
 
@thecoshman coulda gotten a cicada
 
that's epic
 
@rightfold gigidy
@ParkYoung-Bae prefer not to have shit stains :P
 
12:14 PM
@thecoshman what's the front end of back end here?
REST?
 
@thecoshman #toplel
 
@BartekBanachewicz amusing but not true... see SiCortex
SiCortex was a supercomputer manufacturer founded in 2003 and headquartered in Maynard, Massachusetts. On 27 May 2009, HPCwire reported that the company had shut down its operations, laid off most of its staff, and is seeking a buyer for its assets. The Register reported that Gerbsman Partners was hired to sell SiCortex's intellectual properties. While SiCortex had some sales, selling at least 75 prototype supercomputers to several large customers, the company had never produced an operating profit and ran out of venture capital. New funding could not be found. The company built and marketed a...
 
@BartekBanachewicz huh?
your client side and server side can communicate how ever they want. That depends on the style of game, and will impact the languages you want to use.
Erlang is good for huge numbers of 'simultaneous' actors, does that sound like your game?
 
kinda yes
 
user1804599
What kind of game is it?
 
12:17 PM
inb4 can't tell
 
@Jefffrey the doc has 4 pages so far
@rightfold ogame-like
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey I follow a strict Don't-Tell-Don't-Help policy.
 
but with more pronounced spatial aspect
 
ogame
the memories
 
user1804599
> Discover the universe together with thousands of players.
 
user1804599
12:17 PM
Not very many.
 
it was fun and frustrating
 
@rightfold well it was quite popular at its peak
 
and exciting
 
user1804599
Do it in Perl.
 
In very short, I want ogame on one planet, where units can do more and interact with each other.
 
12:18 PM
we are talking about those dark ages when AJAX was not a thing
 
@rightfold Perl is not on The List.
 
every click was a page refresh
 
user1804599
How many players do you want to support?
 
afternoon
 
@rightfold 10-32 on one planet
 
12:19 PM
I'm trying to get my software to work on another machine. sigh
 
user1804599
Then it's probably not worth The Ghetto.
 
However I'd like players to think in large scale
 
hello
 
hello
 
user1804599
You can probably get away with one thread doing all the processing and having one thread per player for networking.
 
user1804599
12:21 PM
As in OS thread.
 
@rightfold that's usually terrible design because it doesn't scale past a thousand or so
 
user1804599
@ParkYoung-Bae He wants no more than 32 players.
 
user1804599
That's far from thousand.
 
@rightfold oh then fine
 
I also can accept HTTP latency
As in, the server doesn't need to be "realtime"
 
user1804599
12:22 PM
It doesn't really matter shit what language you use.
 
in terms of performance, probably not.
but I was wondering if I might find anything that'll make me want to do it in precisely that one
I think dynamic server reloading is helpful. I can do it in Lua, it's builtin in Erlang.
 
@Park Is Angry Bird a troll account of your's?
 
I don't know about haskell honestly
 
user1804599
Technical requirements are minimal.
 
@JohanLarsson I cannot answer this question (but why?)
 
user1804599
12:23 PM
Just use whatever you are comfortable with.
 
that would be Lua
 
user1804599
Fun fact you can write Erlang nodes in Haskell and use Erlang for coordination if you want. :F
 
I was thinking about it
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh, you're actually on about making a real game?
 
no hurry
 
12:24 PM
is python a stretch?
 
I thought you were just being ~discussiony~
 
@ParkYoung-Bae no reason really, just obvious enough trolling for me to spot.
 
@thecoshman I've been prototyping and designing and discussing it for the past few months
 
@BartekBanachewicz elevator pitch...?
@rightfold you can write them in Java too :S
 
6 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
In very short, I want ogame on one planet, where units can do more and interact with each other.
 
user1804599
12:25 PM
@thecoshman In Scala you mean! :D
 
and I guess most languages
 
@nedshares a what stretch
 
user1804599
@thecoshman There's a C API and every respectable language implementation offers a C FFI.
 
@rightfold no, pure Java can run as an Erlang node so it can communicate with other Erlang nodes
 
i meant would it be a stretch to try it in python? not too familiar with its pros and cons for what you're doing
 
12:26 PM
2 hours ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
candidates are Python, Haskell, Erlang and Lua
 
@BartekBanachewicz ogame?
 
user1804599
@thecoshman Scala runs on the JVM dummy.
 
@thecoshman travian. Browser games in general.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Use all of them, problem solved. :D
 
@rightfold but you don't need Scala to write an Erlang node in Java dummy
 
user1804599
12:27 PM
Python browser-side, Haskell for logic, Erlang for I/O and Lua for in-game computer. :P
 
sometimes it feels like language overload
 
user1804599
@thecoshman Well, if you're a masochist.
 
@BartekBanachewicz how real time do you want the client server stuff? If you can forgive slight delays in time, Erlang could be really good for it
 
@rightfold The browser side will be in Haskell most certainly.
 
user1804599
Oh. :L
 
12:28 PM
but let's leave the browser side out of it for now
 
user1804599
Then write the server in Python!
 
woah, I've almost missed a fight, again
 
@rightfold well, if you have an existing Java library that you want to access via Erlang nodes and just need to make a 'wrapper'
 
@thecoshman 1s is okay.
 
user1804599
 
12:28 PM
6 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
I also can accept HTTP latency
 
IIRC there are already Erlang libs out there for doing streaming socket stuff
so if you want it be more 'real time' you have that option open
 
I don't need it
 
user1804599
@thecoshman gen_tcp :v
 
Don't do polling
 
user1804599
But I'd use Cowboy with WebSocket.
 
12:30 PM
I don't ever want a few second delay to make or break someone's game
 
WebSockets or bust
 
though you will always have fun resolving "player A did action first that would stop players B action, but players A command was delayed getting to server and so it processed players B action first"
 
+1 for WebSockets
 
i want those
 
@rightfold something about low level and savage
 
12:30 PM
websockets might be used for push updates
but the actions could well be sent as HTTP POST/PUT requests
 
What for?
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Why?
 
@BartekBanachewicz why?
 
@BartekBanachewicz are the players going to be in the dark about what other players are doing?
 
alternative clients
 
user1804599
12:31 PM
Just do WebSocket for everything. It's much easier.
 
you think this chat uses just ajax or websockets?
 
user1804599
Socket.IO is fine too.
 
user1804599
@nedshares it uses both :facepalm:
 
WS is a duplex communication, if you're using it for getting stuff out of the server, you might as well use it for sending stuff to the server
 
@nedshares it uses websockets.
 
12:31 PM
start simple, then complicate if needed, not the other way around
 
@BartekBanachewicz And WS stops that how exactly
 
@thecoshman yes
 
@BartekBanachewicz what's with the italics...?
 
If anything, one WS is easier to handle than WS + PUT
 
@CatPlusPlus I have to create my own versioning protocol.
 
12:32 PM
A what
 
user1804599
wat
 
WS send arbitrary data
 
WS has subprotocol negotiation built-in
 
user1804599
You have to do API versioning anyway.
 
12:32 PM
HTTP PUT sends arbitrary data, too
 
user1804599
You can access a WebSocket via an URL.
 
you might be right.
 
user1804599
And that URL can contain the API version.
 
@BartekBanachewicz really? so your players are going to just keep sending a command to the game server... with no idea that the other players have done a shit ton of crap?
 
@rightfold Better to use subprotocols
 
12:33 PM
@thecoshman yes. Their actions aren't directly blocking each other.
 
@BartekBanachewicz well I'm going to be pissed of very fast
 
@BartekBanachewicz you can use URIs like wss://server.com/api/v1
 
@thecoshman Like in any RTS
I don't know what you're expecting
 
@CatPlusPlus not really. In every RTS, you see the enemy walking into your base
 
fog of war is a thing since ever
@thecoshman combats are instantaneous in my game
 
12:34 PM
@thecoshman So? Delay in command processing is a thing in every game
 
fog of war != not seeing what the other players are ever doing
 
@thecoshman this is exactly that :v
 
ever
 
@Abyx Interesting. I vaguely recall something like that; I've only used WS in very simple applications.
@thecoshman you see consequences of their actions, not necessarily their actions directly
 
@BartekBanachewicz so... in your game... if you just sit in you well fortified place... you will not see it being slowly destroyed by the enemy...
 
12:35 PM
you get delayed reports.
 
@BartekBanachewicz and what's going to make that data go from server to me?
 
see above.
 
@BartekBanachewicz "btw, two hours ago your walls were breached"
 
yes, something like that.
well the game's design is another thing vOv
 
you're fucking with me right?
 
12:37 PM
@BartekBanachewicz WS starts with HTTP GET, so you can pass any data you want in URI or HTTP headers.
 
leave that to me. I was just wondering about the technology for now.
 
ho boy
gonna spend half a million Funds on a single launch.
 
@thecoshman you just don't understand how this would work in practice
 
you are going to not let me see the stuff under my control being destroyed... so that I don't realise my long term plans are fucked because I was never told about shit
@BartekBanachewicz I wonder why
 
@BartekBanachewicz fucking?
 
12:38 PM
thai food for lunch
 
@thecoshman Maybe because you've never played a browser RTS :v
 
it's like playing chess without seeing what the opponents moves are. You really can't do anything meaning full.
 
Although most of them were created before the tech allowed real realtime
 
welp long polling was sorta OK. before websockets came
 
@thecoshman I suppose you have to wait for the beta release :v
 
12:41 PM
@Abyx :lol: no
 
SO SQL Servers have 384 GB of ram ಠ_ಠ
 
@ParkYoung-Bae why? do they keep stings in UTF-64?
 
Massive cache I guess
Prolly try to keep as much as possible in memory
 
Seems like a typical database server
Databases need fast I/O and lots of memory
 
is a database server more or less equal to a mainframe server?
 
12:47 PM
I wonder how people lived in 9x or 8x without those gigs of memory
 
are mainframes a generalization of database servers?
 
is this real life?
 
@BartekBanachewicz mainframe server is infrastructural term I think, database server is the way you use infrastructure
 
@Abyx we were playing games with 16 colors
 
12:48 PM
anyway this:
21 mins ago, by rightfold
Python browser-side, Haskell for logic, Erlang for I/O and Lua for in-game computer. :P
is what I like the most so far.
inb4 @R.MartinhoFernandes with "ha ha specializations all over again"
 
@BartekBanachewicz why
It's terribly dumb
 
understatement of the year
 
You want the stack to be as simple as possible, not as complicated as possible and also made of tools that can barely interop with each other
 
@CatPlusPlus You forgot the part where Bartek
 
at the beginning you will have some fun in making all this work together, at the end you'll be ranting all over the Lounge
 
12:51 PM
There is no fun in sight with this
Only pain
 
I give it 1 week
 
Well unless you're a masochist, then you'll have a blast
 
Okey I'll tell you why do I think it's a good idea
 
The VS team should use Visual Studio Online.
 
12:52 PM
no pls dont
 
It's really not!
 
Lua is great to prototype in, but I think it wouldn't realistically survive growing into a bigger project
 
So you want to write a prototype, and then throw it away
 
however, it's exceptional at runtime reloading and ever-changing logic
 
Yes that is good prototyping strategy
 
12:53 PM
I think I can realistically write a full prototype in Lua
and then move parts of it to Haskell
 
You're not very good at software development
2
 
This conversation was set before it even started
 
that's not very constructive either
 
Do you really need an explanation
 
the "what language do I use" is a shitty decision because there are inherently no bad choices and no good choices
but I don't think that using two languages is necessarily bad either
 
12:55 PM
then go for malbolge, it's neither a good nor bad choice!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not true
 
@ParkYoung-Bae from a set of reasonable languages sigh
 
define reasonable
 
Like no one is realistically considering PHP
 
I'd pick PHP before that stacktrosity
 
12:56 PM
29 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
2 hours ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
candidates are Python, Haskell, Erlang and Lua
 
"reasonable"
 
So you picked everything
 
@CatPlusPlus I wouldn't use more languages just because
@CatPlusPlus not really
 
No, of course not
 
I am wondering
the inherent cost of keeping 2/3/4 package lists, builds, whatever
it's huge
not even mentioning the interoperability
the gains would have to be substantial to consider doing something like this
 
12:57 PM
Yes that is what I was saying
 
I agree with you completely, except I still see the possibility for such gains.
 
Not really. You can do entire backend in Python and have it done quicker and also not have to throw it away to make it production-ready
 
certainly.
Python is on the "safe side" I'd say
 
Less is more
 
but it's a hobby project, I can give it a little twist.
 
12:59 PM
You can even ~~go crazy~~ and try to use Pyjamas
 
Mob chat dick
 
@CatPlusPlus what's that
 
And have Python on the frontend too
 
GWT for Python
 
12:59 PM
I miss Edward Bird
 
you would.
 

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