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5:00 PM
@Xeo I'd go with migrate.
 
@CaptainGiraffe It's one of MS's language extensions.
I believe for .NET, I may be wrong though.
 
@CaptainGiraffe A handle to a managed (.NET) String.
It's C++/CLI
 
can I remove the C++ tag?
it's burning my eyes out
 
@Drise I just got back from vacation.. haven't worked it yet... but I plan to this week. :-)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh mein gott, not that atrocity again. I was asked by my prefect whether I'd consider teaching C++/CLI, I told him, no I keep puking looking at Managed c++.
 
5:09 PM
@CaptainGiraffe Agreed, and I certainly was unsportmanlike today.
 
@jalf sure, but you'd care if your chair came with an EULA that said it was only good for one person at a time to use or some other crazy restrictions, or it said if a leg fell off you couldn't fix it
 
user784668
@rubenvb No.
 
@Fanael you just did. I should roll back and remove the tag again :)
 
user784668
@rubenvb Do it!
 
lol
Is there any way to dissassemble an so or something and see what (ARM) instructions are present?
 
user784668
5:13 PM
@rubenvb objdump?
 
@Fanael ah yes. Me stupid.
 
@MooingDuck Not necessarily.
Depends on the complexity of the thing you want to serialize
 
@rubenvb I liked biew which is now beye apparently and claims to have ARM support: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beye
 
@DeadMG I can't think of a common case where I'd serialize an equation instead of a value.
 
@CaptainGiraffe byte size is pretty much de facto standard, it's either 8 or 16 nowadays.
 
5:20 PM
project files
 
@DeadMG "never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Heinlein
 
How I hope my armv7 to armv6vfp binary conversion will go: great and easy as eating pie. How it will go: not at all.
 
user784668
@CheersandhthAlf 16-bit bytes nowadays? Where, barring DSPs?
 
@Fanael DSPs
 
@Fanael DSPs
 
5:23 PM
@Fanael only DSPs, as far as I'm aware. and excluding mr. cray's machines.
 
@Fanael DSPs
 
DSPs?
 
user784668
@Drise DSPs.
 
@Fanael DSPs
 
user784668
5:24 PM
@Mysticial You're slow.
 
Where does Qualcomm drop its binary blobs for a QDSP5? I can't find anything :/
 
oh, bitbucket is down
 
@CheersandhthAlf I thought cray only made x86_64/GPGPU machines these days and the old ones had been retired since an average graphics card is faster and cheaper to run
 
oh i don't know, i haven't followed
 
@bamboon That's unfortunate.
 
Xeo
5:30 PM
@sbi Thanks! (I felt that wasn't worth a mail.)
 
I find it odd that the Ivy bridge is boasting graphics. My 6 year old hardware is beating the crap out of Ivy bridge. A few watts extra but still.
 
@CaptainGiraffe it's only to counter AMD's APU victory.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Ivy bridge isn't much better than Sandy bridge. But they need to find a reason to advertise it.
 
I'm surprised not more laptops have AMD's APU's... well, not really surprised...
 
@rubenvb AMD's APUs are junk
 
5:32 PM
@DeadMG bullocks
 
user784668
APUs are junk.
 
APUs are not junk.
 
Ell
I thought ivy bridge had about 40% increased graphics capabilities?
 
@Ell 40% increase over 0.0000...001% of the market leader GPUs is still 0.0000....01%
 
5:34 PM
@Ell That +40% is still 20% of my 6 year old hardware.
 
Ell
@CaptainGiraffe is that compared to a dedicated card?
 
@Ell Yes, the HD3850
 
Ell
well that's not exactly a fair comparison
 
user784668
@rubenvb 0.000…001? Is that the number that gives 1 when added to 0.(9)?
 
it is if they cost the same
 
5:36 PM
@Ell Well it's been 7 years
 
Ell
yeah I guess
 
@Fanael just small.
 
Ell
I have a gtx560
 
proud owner of ivy bridge quad core here ;)
 
Proud owner of 64 Xeons here.
 
Ell
5:37 PM
@BeyondSora what model? I have sandy bridge i5 2500k @ 4.60 ghz
 
@Ell So you are also beating the crap out of the DX11, IVY bridge =)
 
Proud owner of a bunch of old machines... :(
 
whoa... 4.6ghz? water cooling I bet
 
@Cicada Now thats a Gaming rig!
 
@Ell I have the laptop model: 3610qm
 
5:38 PM
@CaptainGiraffe It's for scientific calculus sadly.
 
Ell
@BeyondSora no watercooling :L just a big ass heatsink
 
And I don't own it :(
 
unfortunately does not have VT-d with it... even tho every other ivy bridge quad core has it
 
Ell
I thought xeon was a server processor?
 
I had a Sandy 2600K @ 4.6 GHz for about 6 months. Then I had to lower it to 4.4 GHz since it degraded.
 
Ell
5:38 PM
and server processors were inferior when it comes to desktop processing :L
 
Yeah? Well these 64 cores would like to have a word with your 4.
 
@Ell Not when you have multiple of them on the same motherboard. :P
 
are they? Only the xeon models have up to 6 cores/ 12 threads, right?
 
Ell
actually yeah I recently put mine back to 3.3 GHz because I didn't actually need the extra :L
 
wait? 64cores?
 
5:39 PM
It's a machine with 64 Xeons and 2 GTX 590
 
Ell
I could probably get rid of 2 cores and be fine
@Cicada wtf what motherboard has 64 sockets?
 
It's 64 logical.
 
my god...
sooo 16 sockets?
 
Yeah I guess.
 
Ell
I'm confused :L
 
5:40 PM
It's probably a quad-socket Beckton machine - 4 sockets, 8 cores each with HT
 
Yeah that ^
 
Ell
how much would that cost?
 
I have no idea really. Just /proc/cpuinfo reports 64 cores.
 
lol "mine's bigger than yours".
 
YES IT IS
AND IM A GIRL
SUCK ON THAT
 
5:40 PM
and that's saying a lot
 
lol.
 
wait, xeon has up to 8cores/12threads?
 
So the girl is bragging about how she has the biggest e-penis...
 
@Cicada Suck on yours? But what if it's too big?
 
lmfao
 
5:41 PM
@Mysticial u jelly? :mad:
 
I'd hit that.
 
Oh wait, you don't own it. I own mine though. :P
 
Ell
woah now, lets just remember it's not about the size, its about how you use it
 
Ell
scientific calculations < gaming ;)
 
5:41 PM
Plenty of custom boards has an inordinate amount of sockets. Just because we don't see it on the consumer market does not mean it doesn't exist. I have a 384 cpu comp running at my uni.
 
Ell
@CaptainGiraffe so where do you buy them from?
 
@Ell IBM is a good start.
 
Ell
and what OS do you use? *nix I take it?
 
It's a Debian ofc.
 
@Ell Yep, used to be solaris. now it is linux.
 
5:43 PM
@Ell Still, it has a lot more horsepower than any gaming machine.
 
Ell
@Cicada yeah I know :(
ooh my dindins are ready, I will be back later guys :)
 
@Cicada A lot more horses, anyways =)
 
It's horrible to work on such powerful monster. It makes me wanna buy a more powerful PC :(
 
@Cicada Heck, I have access to a part of the UIUC Bluewaters supercomputer...
 
I have access to the European Grid (whatever the name is)
But it sucks!
Deploying jobs is complicated and long
 
5:45 PM
@Cicada The 384 cpu at my place, is a part of that.
 
Also Mysticial I wanted to ask you a question
But I forgot what.
 
um...
 
@Cicada the CERN Grid?
 
No it's bigger than that - the CERN grid is included in it.
 
Nope that is different.
@Cicada I don't think CERN is included in that.
 
5:48 PM
Well I don't know. I work on the Complex Systems Grid, which belongs to the CERN grid, which (I think) in turn belongs to the European Grid.
 
@Cicada is it this? egi.eu
 
That looks like it
Brb dinner!
 
I hate it when my computer freezes for several seconds because I did something silly like mouse-over the solution explorer in Visual Studio.
12
 
Well that was extremely unsatisfying. We get to the LHC computing capabilities; and all we find is "dinnertime"
@MooingDuck jalf says thats a non-bad.
 
@Cicada So what exactly do you do? Physics simulations?
 
5:53 PM
Trolling AI.
 
She's good.
 
@CatPlusPlus Useful
 
It's no fun when something does it for you.
 
but you made it do something for you.
 
@JimNorton I did the simulations back in 95 when the pad tech was just a starter. The idea is that a charged particle will release electrons in a copper plate.
 
5:55 PM
Is anyone else experiencing chat twitching?
 
How can I ldd a 32-bit exe on 64-bit linux? It keeps saying no dynamically executable file, but file disagrees.
 
So we etched a lot of small plates on a circuit board, measuring the current from each board.
 
Ell
hi guys
 
It turned out the small think (1mm x 1 mm) pads, neighbours was also getting signals.
So from being noise we actually got a very good hit. In a small and distant way, I feel like I contributed to this =)
 
5:59 PM
@rubenvb Is it multilib system?
 
@CatPlusPlus What does that mean? I have gcc-multilib and friends installe yes.
or wait
dammit
 
obviously I thought I had it installed, yet it wasn't
@CatPlusPlus GNU/Linux 2.6.9? Seriously?
 
Ell
how does debugging work when you have massively expensive computations to do
 
I don't run 2.6.9.
 
user784668
6:05 PM
Pop quiz: where does Python's configparser.ConfigParser.read_file read the data from?
 
ok, gots the gcc-libs-multilib installed and all's good.
 
@Fanael China!
 
Ell
Is it me, or are there lots of places where there are no "good" options, only "the best of the worst"? Like cross platform build systems for example. Or gui libaries.
 
@Ell duh.
 
Welcome to the world.
 
Ell
6:07 PM
well... why?
why haven't people written something "good"?
 
user784668
@SamDeHaan Well, that's a better answer than "from a file".
 
"the best" is very opinionated
 
Ell
it seems like I have never found something "good". Apart from... ruby ;)
 
@Ell I'll flag that.
 
Ell
@rubenvb it doesn't need to be "the best" - it just needs to be good enough so people don't say "Don't look directly into cmake's eyes!"
@rubenvb really? :L
 
user784668
6:09 PM
Is there a PEP regarding the style of docstrings?
 
Not likely.
 
@Ell Qt qualifies for those criteria.
@Ell I'm not sure about that yet :P
 
@CaptainGiraffe Sounds like fun.
 
Ell
I haven't personally tried qt, but it looks gross :L it has its own preprocessor for goodness sake :L
 
Annoyance with things like GUI libraries or build systems increases exponentially with complexity of the thing you want to do.
@Ell Because C++ sucks for GUIs.
 
6:11 PM
@Ell Drise loves QT
 
@Ell what the @Cat says. Qt is very comprehensive and works great.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus everything sucks for gui :L
 
Not really.
C++ is boilerplatey. I do my own preprocessors and generators, too.
 
GTK sucks because of it's poor documentation.
 
GTK sucks because it's GTK.
 
Ell
6:12 PM
@CatPlusPlus so (besides Qt) what gui libary doesn't suck?
actually I'm probably placing my standards too high
 
@Ell ncurses
 
@JimNorton I will flag that.
 
@rubenvb :-)
 
Ell
@JimNorton haha I wouldn't call that gui :L
 
@Ell Yeah, it's a UI
 
6:14 PM
@Ell Pretty much nothing.
 
NeXT had a nice GUI builder..
 
@JimNorton It's a TUI, duh.
 
There's WPF, but meh.
 
@CatPlusPlus Overly complicated
 
Stupid tab close buttons in Chrome.
 
6:16 PM
Can't we just go back to a time when "ed" was enough?
 
It's impossible not to click it when there's more than 15 tabs.
 
user1174868
I got that program working to calculate the b^n > a, thanks for all the help, feels good to actually get it working :P just wish I was able to do it on my own
 
user1174868
Now I am going to work on making a loop in scheme for practice
 
ed was never good.
 
@CatPlusPlus But it was enough.
 
6:17 PM
Enough is not good enough.
 
Better than punch cards
 
There's also wxWidgets, but I find it a clusterfuck kind of GUI library.
not that Qt isn't overfeatured.
 
GTKmm might be worth looking into...
 
6 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
GTK sucks because it's GTK.
 
6:18 PM
We are so spoiled these days.
 
Bullshit. We should be critical of everything, otherwise there's no progress.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not saying progress should stop, just that we are spoiled in comparison to developers in the 80's and early 90's.
 
how to cross-compile a project that has 10 subprojects, ffmpeg, and a "One Step Make" build system :(
 
If they weren't critical about computers, we'd still be stuck in age of punch cards.
 
user1174868
I like punch cards, that satisfying clack was rewarding
 
6:21 PM
@CatPlusPlus I agree. But we are still spoiled.
 
@JimNorton Back in my day, we didn't even have lawns to tell these young kids to get off of?
 
@SamDeHaan No lawns.
 
@SamDeHaan Something like that. But I never had to use punch cards. Just happy we don't have to now.
 
Every time I have to prefix a variable with s_, I cringe.
 
@EtiennedeMartel you should try Fortran. 6 spaces ... code.
 
Ell
6:24 PM
I just want a build system where I can have a list of targets and sub-targets who inherit the properties of their parent and can be described with a simple file and simply run
maybe I'll write my own :D
Here's how I will write my game...
1. Write a build system
2. Write a 3d graphics library
3. Write a gui library
4. Write a 3d sound library
5. Write the game
 
@Ell Step 0. Reinvent the wheel.
 
Ell
Step 1, reinvent the wheel
Step 2,
Step 3, profit!
 
@JimNorton Step -1 Build an Operating System.
 
@SamDeHaan You forgot building your own CPU from scratch and hand-soldering it together.
 
Ell
with a hand made soldering iron
 
6:27 PM
electricity generated from a hand-made generator, too
 
@DeadMG No, wire-wrap the CPU
 
Ell
with hand generated electricity generated from a hand made generator
 
and all the wiring hand-made, and the solder hand-mad
 
With wire from ore you mined and refined yourself
 
Ell
with a pic you made yourself
with ore you made yourself
 
6:28 PM
With a handle made from wood harvested by you from a tree you grew yourself
 
Ell
with a universe you made yourself
...you are god.
 
...mormons?
 
I was just about to say that you would also have to have given birth to yourself
 
@SamDeHaan Mormons? I don't think they think they are Gods.
 
@JimNorton Isn't it the mormons that believe after they die they get their own universe sandbox?
 
6:29 PM
@DeadMG That's the trickiest part.
 
wow I actually used sed for the first time.
 
Mormonism is the religion practiced by Mormons, and is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement. This movement was founded by Joseph Smith, Jr. beginning in the 1820s as a form of Christian primitivism. During the 1830s and 1840s, Mormonism gradually distinguished itself from traditional Protestantism. Mormonism today represents the new, non-Protestant faith taught by Smith in the 1840s. After Smith's death, most Mormons followed Brigham Young to the Rocky Mountains as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Other branches of Mormonism i...
 
@SamDeHaan I don't know....
@EtiennedeMartel No the trickiest part would be to create the universe in which you would give birth to yourself into.
 
yeah, because remember, you'd have to create the universe before you exist
doable if time traveller?
 
Moronism?
 
Ell
6:32 PM
hmm methinks not, a time traveller needs a receiver :L
 
@Cicada That's rude.
 
@JimNorton so what's new?
 
@DeadMG Nothing I guess.
 
In Mormon theology, there are three degrees of glory (alternatively, kingdoms of glory) which are the ultimate, eternal dwelling place for nearly all who lived on earth after the Spirit world. Joseph Smith, Jr. described the afterlife based primarily upon a vision he claimed to have received together with Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, February 16, 1832, and recorded as Doctrine and Covenants [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76 Section 76]. According to this section of LDS scripture, the afterlife consists of three degrees or kingdoms of glory, called the Celestial Kingdom, the Terre...
@JimNorton If troll was not rude, what would troll be?
 
@SamDeHaan A troll of a different kind?
 
6:34 PM
Hey guys, mind making me look smart and my colleagues dumb?
 
@JimNorton A boring troll.
 
Android NDK Y U so crippled?!?!
 
Aaaand now I think I've googled mormonism enough at work for one day.
 
A couple of colleagues insist that it is outright impossible to force the VC++ compiler/toolchain not to link mscorlib (or possibly other .net dlls) even when compiling a completely unmanaged solution. The end result is (they say) that you can't compile a dll with MSVC++ for use on machines that don't have .NET present. Is this true?
I insisted that this was absurd and there MUST be a way to make it happen that nobody knows about because they don't RTFM.
 
@TomW dafuq? If by unmanaged you mean plain ol' C or C++ code, they're wrong. /nodefaultlibs gets you a clean bunch of undefined references to crt symbols and whatnot.
 
6:39 PM
@TomW No.
native C++ programs compiled with VC++ do not link against .NET or anything of the sort.
 
I would love to demonstrate that that is the case. Unfortunately this is the 'we know more than you' wall that everyone runs into now and then
 
@TomW no, the options for how to do so are quite easy and clear
 
@TomW Just use an explorer like PE Explorer to see what .DLLs you link against.
 
Nobody will tell me many details about the problem because they think I'm going to waste time trying to prove them wrong. My understanding is that it's just a plain old native C++ dll to be shipped with some ancient legacy software designed to run on clunky old lab pcs, boxes stashed away in the back of telecoms vans, and so on
 
Ell
is multimap multiple keys => one value or vice-versa?
 
6:42 PM
proving what DLLs another DLL does or does not link against is as trivial as parsing the PE header
 
they're adamant that it isn't possible to seperate the resulting library from .NET and therefore have it run on very old machines
 
Ridiculus
 
@TomW There's a 30` by 30` mainframe involved in there somewhere
 
@TomW they're wrong
 
@TomW Just get a fresh install of Windows XP SP3, make sure you uninstall all the .NET components, and then run it there.
 
6:42 PM
I want this victory, because it will demonstrate the value of RTFM
 
or use a tool like PE explorer to prove that it does not link
 
@TomW get PE Explorer or similar then
 
or, fuck, just RTFM, which I'm pretty sure explicitly has this written in it somewhere
 
I've had a go with it
 
Allthough, in VS2012 Express Edition, it will be made impossible to compile a simple, 'standard' console application. MS wants you to (a) move to Metro style (b) pay the buck to get the full compiler
 
6:43 PM
@TomW or just install your program on a machine without .Net installed.
 
@sehe Not anymore. They backpedalled out of that.
 
@sehe they revoked that
 
wasn't quite sure what I was looking at, but IIRC the version I looked at was linked against mscorlib. That will be some dumb option switched on that just needs turning off, I'll wager.
 
Ell
thats why I prefer dev on linux
 
@TomW Yep.
 
6:44 PM
@DeadMG Male sure is 32bit. SP3 isn't quite as well supported in 64bit as XPSP3 in 32 bit. Don't ask me why, but it is missing windows updates, rendering VS2010 slow
 
I'll be more than happy if they kill console subsystem and finally replace it with something sane.
 
is it just /clr?
 
Ell
it has only necessary stuff. vs makes me think I'm doing everything wrong
 
@MooingDuck Really. Link? /cc @DeadMG
 
@Ell This makes no sense.
 
6:45 PM
@sehe Eh. 64bit XP was a bit of a joke anyway.
@TomW There's a project setting for it somewhere.
@CatPlusPlus Agreed
 
@DeadMG Well, it works. :) It is the only version of Windows I have around
 
XP64 was a beta for 64-bit Windowses.
 
@DeadMG I was sure that would be the case.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus why?
 
6:46 PM
The nerdrage I get when I try to investigate things like this is astonishing
 
@Ell cause they stopped supporting it after 1 SP.
 
You prefer development on Linux, because an IDE is... an IDE?
 
@Ell VS is brain dead simple, I don't know what you're talking about
 
@TomW Lol "Nerdrage" Now I know what it was that I felt last friday when I corrected for my DBA colleagues Oracle incompetence
 
Non-sequitur.
 
Ell
6:47 PM
I don't know I just get claustraphobic on windows :L
 
What.
What does that even mean.
 
@CatPlusPlus tense, unfamiliar, uneasy
 
@MooingDuck except that it hides important behaviour to stop novices messing around with it. For people who actually need it, that's incredibly annoying
 
@TomW like what? What behavior does it hide? You want a makefile? It does that.
 
@TomW What.
 
6:48 PM
VS doesn't hide anything from you
 
Like the aforementioned option 'link against this massive monolithic library that lots of people don't have, yes/no'
 
@TomW there's options for that
 
Don't create a .NET project if you don't want a .NET project.
 
they're there, but they'd prefer you have to dig to find them
that's my definition of 'hidden'
 
@TomW Precisely. I find VS too annoying to consider using for C++. I'll allow it for C#, but only because of viEmu + ReSharper
 
6:49 PM
@TomW so, all options are hidden then? It's right in the middle of all of the other options
 
No, you just have to not be an idiot and pick the right project type.
It doesn't hide anything, especially from newbies.
 
@DeadMG Wut!? So many colleagues keep looking why their project is failing. Some hidden default value of 'Local Copy' on a reference was changed from True to False in VS2010.
 
@TomW it's in the "linker" settings, along with all of the other "linker" settings
 
@sehe That's not "hidden", that's "bloated". Not the same.
 
Ell
it still sucks though
 
6:51 PM
All IDEs suck.
 
I usually don't find it to be a problem, just occasionally there is an annoying quirk that I didn't know about. I'm contrasting it to how it seems to be done in linux via byzantine command-line utilities, which is to refuse to do anything and not say why.
 
Ell
I agree
 
everything sucks
 
Ell
It does :( It makes me feel sad :(
 
VS is completely intransparent. Whenever you need to set a build option, you;ll have to go and work 3 dialogs for each build configuration + target separately. Give me a makefile anyday, where you can just CFLAGS+=-foption
 
6:52 PM
@sehe You can do them all at once as well as one at a time, in the exact same manner.
 
@TomW Huh. At least the CLI utils have their manpage right there. No arcane MSDN links, 20 helpful but useful topics and no way to get to the actual options :)
 
Any IDE does that.
 
@sehe oh you didn't. manpages are written for people who already know.
 
@MooingDuck Perhaps they've further improved it. But, let's take 'keep preprocessed output' as an example. Create preprocessed source of a TU in < 5 minutes in VS.
 
IDE's and compilers are for wimps. I just use a hex editor and write in machine code.
 
6:54 PM
cl /E
 
right click project->properties->Configuration.
Set Configuration to "All". Set Platform to "All".
C++->preprocessor->generate preprocessed file = YES
 
Ell
I think the best way is a text and a command line build system
now I just need a good build system
 
@MooingDuck I know where to find it. The question is, who else knew. Also, it appears that when you check it, you are no longer able to successfully build the project. Somehow I think that's odd
 
@Ell "make" :-)
 
Lol make.
You missed "good" there.
 
6:55 PM
In my work, I do C# on a large scale. I find myself using the CLI for just about everything. It is just faster. By a lot
@MooingDuck :)
 
@sehe I'm testing before I make claims on that
 
@CatPlusPlus make good?
 
make -f MakeBuildSystem
 
@sehe in that case I'd say make is even more hidden, since I have to go launch other programs merely to find out what the option is. Visual studio I have a handy built-in GUI that helps me find it.
 
6:57 PM
"make" will put some hair on your chest. It's a good thing.
 
if you can't type [name of utility] /? and get a reasonable overview, it's a terrible utility
 
Looks like that Javascript parseInt question just got linked on reddit. To protect or not to protect...
 
@JimNorton make issn't a buildsystem. And it's not a good thing. Handwritten makefiles are mightily unportable and useless.
 
@MooingDuck I don't fucking care that people can't find/read manpages. I don't want to be slowed down because the UI has to look like a grocery store
 
6:59 PM
@rubenvb I guess you don't find the sarcasm in my comments
 
@rubenvb and useless - the rest I can agree to
 
sexy bitches :)
 
now I'm not against shiny GUI clients in principle
the speed at which I can bang out an object model using Class Diagram in VS is crazy
 

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