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8:00 PM
@Mysticial I'm not advocating inheritance or resource acquisition. I mean plain from an encapsulation and organization PoV.
 
Why is std::bitset a templare class?
The only thing it stores are bools anyway?
 
@ManofOneWay Size.
 
@Ell I've done it both ways actually. It was about the same.
 
it's kinda like a specialization of std::array<bool, N>, but of course, it still needs to know N.
 
@DeadMG That what the structs were for.
 
8:01 PM
@DeadMG You can achieve that without Classes and C++. It's been done very well before OO.
 
Ell
@Mysticial what do you mean it was about the same?
 
@JimNorton Yeah, you can. Just like you can write Windows in Brainfuck. That doesn't mean that trying to do so is an intelligent idea.
 
Why would you need a template parameter for size? Cant you just allocate using a normal constructor?
Is it because of std:.array<bool,N> as you mentioned?
 
@ManofOneWay Not for a statically sized class.
 
@DeadMG You are so fucking closed minded.
 
8:02 PM
@Ell Same amount of code.
 
And I mean that in the most polite way of course
 
@JimNorton Get used to it, it's not going to change. Best bet: Either learn to ignore him, or actually ignore him.
 
Ell
@Mysticial and it was equally well organised and clear etc. ?
 
@JimNorton You don't present any meaning
 
@Ell Yep.
 
8:02 PM
you might as well complain that I always breathe and I refuse to consider not breathing as a way of life
well, duh, it's not like "not breathing" is gonna work out for me
 
@DeadMG So I cannot instantiate it with a size known only at runtime?
 
@DeadMG You're completely right. Breathing vs not breathing is the exact same as classes vs structs.
 
@ManofOneWay Nope.
 
@SamDeHaan Well, aside from his "C" is shit and C++ is king crap, I like the chap, so I can't actually ignore him.
 
Ell
@Mysticial do you write c++?
 
8:03 PM
Out of the 200k+ lines of code. There's only about 200 lines that actually did make sense to do in C++. But that's less than 1% - which is not enough to make be break C99 compatibility.
@Ell Yes.
 
C is shit. C++ is also shit, but more tolerable shit.
And when I have to take a shit into my hand, I'll take the more tolerable shit.
 
@SamDeHaan Well, one is clearly and unambiguously better than the other, so in this case they basically are (in the way in which I meant the comparison).
 
@DeadMG Some day, you may have to take a logic class. And you will fail, brilliantly.
 
@JimNorton Yeah. C++ is so king, I'm working on replacing it with my own language. That's my extent of C++ worship.
@SamDeHaan Actually, I already did and I passed with flying colours.
 
@DeadMG Oh please... you're not fooling anybody.
 
8:05 PM
@JimNorton What, you think I'm not trying to replace C++?
 
@DeadMG I believe you are trying.
 
@DeadMG Well, I guess to use logical fallacies so creatively, you must have to understand how they work.
 
@Ell I use C++ for pretty much anything that isn't 90% hard metal numerical code.
But of course, I'm only known for one thing: Pi - which is 99% hard metal numerical code.
 
Ell
@Mysticial was there no c++ compiler available? I mean why would you out of the blue decide "hmm it appears I could have C compatability. May as well :D"
 
@SamDeHaan There's no fallacy here. Classes can do everything structs can do, but better, and additional functionality on top of that. So there's no scope whatsoever for structs to be competitive. You may as well argue 5 < 4.
@JimNorton So what is there to be "not fooling anybody" about?
 
8:07 PM
@SamDeHaan DeadMG has a logic of his own, no one has been able to bend their mind around it yet
 
@DeadMG Your worship of C++.
 
@Ell I develop and compile on VC++. But in Linux I can compile as either C++ or C99.
 
@DeadMG So if I only know the size at runtime, I'll have to use a std::vector<bool> or bool *arr ? I only want to set the size once, will I be able to use vector as an array: allocate space and then use the [] operator without any speed loss compare to bool *arr?
 
@JimNorton I don't worship C++. I hate the fucking thing. It's just that C is much worse and C++ is objectively superior.
 
Well, C++ is the best thing we have right now which gives just enough high level stuff on top of nice performance.
 
8:07 PM
@TonyTheLion There's two options: He's actually intelligent, and his dedication to this troll character is ridiculous, or he's really borked in the brain.
 
@Mysticial Why not use FORTRAN.
 
There's no worship involved.
 
Ell
@Mysticial I still don't understand the reason to use C. This isn't a c++ vs C thing, I mean, I genuinely don't understand the reason to keep C compatability when not necessary at all?
 
@JimNorton Oh god, don't even go there...
 
Worship usually makes languages like PHP stick around. Worship is bad.
 
8:08 PM
@ManofOneWay Yes. But be careful about vector<bool>, it's got unusual rules compared to the other vector instantiations.
@SamDeHaan So... you have no response to the point I made?
 
@SamDeHaan He is quite intelligent IMHO, but he is dedicated to be right about whatever he says. Not easily changing his views.
 
@Mysticial Well, that's what FORTRAN was created for... mathematical calculations... it's still largely used to do that sort of thing...
 
vector<bool> will be slower than array of bools.
 
@Ell The program used to be 99% C and 1% C++. Then I got bored one day, and realized, hey - I can make this compile on GCC... meh wth...
 
Because it's a stupid bitmap in disguise.
 
8:09 PM
@CatPlusPlus right, forgot
 
vector<char> might be a better bet
 
@ManofOneWay use std::vector<char> and pretend it's a vector of bools >.<
 
or vector<array<bool, 1>>
 
Ell
can't you use vector<char> in place of vector<bool> or is that nonsense?
 
It's fine.
 
8:10 PM
dat bool.
 
@DeadMG You made an unrelated point. My argument: Breathing vs non-breathing is not comparable to structs vs classes. Structs and classes both function similarly, you just like one more. Breathing vs non-breathing do not have the same function.
 
@SamDeHaan Are you truly arguing a joke?
 
Ell
@SamDeHaan breathing vs non-breathing?
@Mysticial ahh okay :L I just didn't see the rational was all
 
@SamDeHaan I wouldn't really say that. Classes have leaps and bounds of functionality ahead of structs. However, more relevantly, I only actually meant the comparison in that one of them is clearly superior to the other and I'd have to be a moron to use the inferior one.
 
he is arguing until he falls dead, so a joke must also be argued I guess :P
 
8:11 PM
How do I allocate a vector by just telling how many objects I want? Do I have to use vec1.reserve(x);?
I want to be able to allocate in the init list of the constructor
 
@DeadMG sometimes "less is more", I was once told
 
@DeadMG No, you make yourself appear to be a moron in other ways. :-)
 
Ell
@ManofOneWay pass a length to the vector's constructor IIRC
 
@ManofOneWay std::vector<char> apple(30, 'a');
 
@JimNorton you clearly have not been acquainted enough with the DeadMG ways, else you know you can't possibly win an argument against him. Just let it go, it's not worth it. Believe me :) I speak on behalf of many that have tried.
9
 
8:13 PM
@ManofOneWay std::vector<char> something(datCount, ' ');
 
@DeadMG But to use "you might as well complain that I always breathe and I refuse to consider not breathing as a way of life" to argue that classes > structs is using an unrelated point that people agree with to try to show them that your point is correct. That's a fallacy, I just can't recall which one. To the lists!
 
and there goes another... not heeding my advice
 
@TonyTheLion Lol...
 
It's basically just one of the constructor overloads that lets you specify the size of it and the default value for all.
 
@TonyTheLion But he's a fun chap otherwise.
 
8:14 PM
@TonyTheLion Some people (myself included) just can't resist the troll. It's in our nature.
 
@JimNorton yea, he is, just don't bother with arguing
@SamDeHaan har har
 
In Cantonese, there's this saying, "for the sake of arguing". That quite literally is the case here.
 
@Mysticial But you don't understand! Someone is wrong on the internets!
 
@SamDeHaan :P
 
@SamDeHaan Nobody is wrong per say here, just close minded.
 
sbi
8:16 PM
@MooingDuck There are no "template classes" in C++.
 
@sbi But, but, C# has generic classes!
 
@JimNorton Not in that argument, however, in the meta-argument about that argument...
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel Erm. So?
 
Oh shit, I'm sorry... I forgot... I LOVE BACON!
 
And if I want to allocate it using the initializer list? Can I use move to not allocate more than once?
This is shit but you get my point: http://ideone.com/6WnCl
 
8:18 PM
@sbi pft. template class, class template.
 
Fascinating news from Croatia, airport in the city of Split declined an aircraft's request for landing (it flying from Istanbul) because the local ATC tower's shift had ended.
 
@DomagojPandža So the pilot had to circle until the next shift started?
 
They were redirected 300 km north to the capital where the dickheads managed to land.
 
8:20 PM
@ManofOneWay what initializer list? If you initialize a vector from the initializer list, that has an intrinsic size.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Yeah, right, "man reaper" or "reaper man", what difference does it make?
 
@MooingDuck Ah thanks
 
And then they had to take a bus back to Split.
 
@DomagojPandža That is wrong on so many levels.
 
@MooingDuck In the code that you sent, will it not create an empty vector and then create a vector again?
 
8:21 PM
@ManofOneWay if you log in, you can edit code and not make new pages
 
Nobody could wait 5-10 minutes while the pilot was on final?
 
@sbi That was my point.
 
Ell
@ManofOneWay you don't need the std::move for just creating the vector
 
sbi
@MooingDuck The thing is, a class template is a template from which classes are instantiated. A template class, which doesn't exist, would be a class from which...? Uh.
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, I assumed so. The problem is I don't get it.
 
@JimNorton A bunch of idiots, basically. Like most of the people here.
 
8:23 PM
@ManofOneWay no, it just creates the vector vec with a space characters.
 
@DomagojPandža Laughing out loud!
 
woah, I killed the argument dead, I'm so happy :P
 
@sbi I know what a class template is. And when I say template class, yes it is the wrong word, but every single person knows what I'm referring to, because it doesn't have a separate meaning, and is a common wording for the concept.
 
now we can got on with our lives
lol
 
Ell
I do quite dislike the pedantry that is present in this room
2
It brings a sharp and bitter atmosphere sometimes
 
8:25 PM
@TonyTheLion My bet's on DeadMG went to get dinner/piss/etc and will at some point in the future reappear and attempt to "win" it.
 
@ManofOneWay on the other hand, your code made a vector with a spaces, and then constructed vec from that temporary vectors' data. Not a full copy, but still an extra step
 
sbi
@Ell If you dislike pedantry, this room is not for you. Also, you might want to consider to ditch C++.
2
 
@SamDeHaan How ironic. I was literally just typing up a fresh salvo.
had to cut my internets for family-related reasons
 
Ell
@sbi programming languages are allowed to be pedantic :L
 
@SamDeHaan lol
 
8:26 PM
@SamDeHaan I'm not using it to argue classes > structs, that's a different argument. I'm using it to say that not considering the alternative is perfectly sane and reasonable, since it's mathematically impossible to be true.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Ok, henceforth let's all refer to door knobs as "knob doors". Yes, it's wrong, but since there are no knob doors, everybody will know what is referred to anyway, right?
 
@DeadMG You are right.
 
Ell
@sbi no that just sounds like a door shaped like a penis
 
@sbi somebody's never considered novel trouser design
 
@sbi I think that's not necessarily fair.
template class is a pretty obvious thing to call it, because that's the order you write the keywords when you define the thing.
 
8:28 PM
@sbi Woah now, that kind of argument is reserved for @DeadMG
 
Ell
what @DeadMG said
 
sbi
@DeadMG Poor puppy. Been treated wrong, huh? Here, have a biscuit.
 
and most people I've met use template class unless corrected
@sbi huh?
 
@DeadMG I cooould continue to argue, but that would make me stay at work when I don't have to, so I won't.
 
@sbi No, mostly just playful banter.... at least on my part.
 
8:29 PM
@sbi I've never heard "knob doors". However, I have heard "template class" a lot. It is a very common phrase
@sbi if you do a google search for "template class" and "class templates" (with quotes), you get an almost identical number of results.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck What a nice argument! So when everybody does it wrong, wrong becomes right? Guess what, gazillions of flies live off shit. And if so many do this, there must be something to it, right?
 
@MooingDuck that's actually on wikipedia as a named fallacious argument, IIRC
 
@sbi Only if DeadMG says so! :-)
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Yeah, and if you google for C++ tutorial you get an incredible amount of shit, too. That does not make those tutorials right, though.
 
@JimNorton I directly espouse the opposite to that argument, and used such earlier.
 
8:32 PM
EVERYONE Try not to think of pink Elephants
 
@DeadMG Lol, man, I'm just playing around. :-)
 
@TonyTheLion GG!
 
@TonyTheLion Okay.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Granny is able to not to think of pink rhinoceroses. It's a neat trick, and if you had read a few books, you'd know it.
 
lol
well that worked, now everyone has pink elephants in their minds, I just want to say that they do not exist, only Flamingo's are pink :P
 
8:34 PM
Well, I don't.
 
@sbi it's a word. Words aren't "right" or "wrong". They have official and colloquial definitions. I used the wrong official word, whoop-de-do. Do you also inturrpt conversations to insist that "heap" and "Koenig lookup" are wrong?
 
I'm finding my next "Words with Friends" move.
 
Ell
@sbi i was about to make the point @MooingDuck was going to make, this is a case of mistaken identity, not concept or whatever
 
In unrelated news, Subway put terriyaki sauce on my BBQ sandwich again.
 
sbi
@Ell But it is a case of mistaken identity, and it leads to errors!
When I introduced templates to my students, I spend an incredible amount of time helping them with bugs they had because they used an identifier that referred to a template where a class would be needed. It took me a two or three semesters until I understood what the problem is. Then I always prepared them that half the world out there says "template class", but that this is wrong, and that they need to think of this as a "class template" instead. That cut down such errors dramatically.
 
8:37 PM
@MooingDuck Those insensitive clods!
 
@sbi Curious. I've never seen a significant error in that regard.
 
I just say "template".
 
Ell
@sbi Well I'm just a noob so you're probably right
@CatPlusPlus I don't speak.
 
They can figure out whether I mean classes or functions.
 
@TomW I can't find it
 
sbi
8:38 PM
@DeadMG And how many students exactly have you taught?
 
Do I need to explicitly say inline nowadays or does the compiler know when a method should be inlined?
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus That works, too. And if the need arises, you can always qualify it with the right prefix.
 
@ManofOneWay inline is for getting around ODR, not inlining.
 
sbi
@ManofOneWay VC6 even nowadays gets it wrong.
 
@DeadMG nonsense, there was a guy just a few weeks ago trying to put the STL into a vector.
 
8:39 PM
So, yes.
But not for inlining.
 
@sbi Sorry, I was busy chasing down some crazy bug. Does it matter that I'm available now?
 
@ManofOneWay inline has nothing to do with the compiler inlining a function. It's for putting functions in a header.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah, it's 10:40pm here, and I have given up on PS for today. Thanks anyway.
 
@MooingDuck might have been deleted by someone who thought it was BS. Or I might have seen it somewhere else. Or it might have been XKCD.
 
Ell
@ManofOneWay I think the compiler knows - it's just a hint anyway
 
8:40 PM
@ManofOneWay and yes, most compilers inline whatever makes sense.
Except VS doesn't by default for some reason.
 
Anybody here do any work on a Pandaboard or BeagleBoard?
 
Because VS is too pro to properly implement anything.
@JimNorton I do a lot of work on a keyboard.
 
@CatPlusPlus VS can do it, but the option is off by default
 
I wish Borland was still around or Watcom... They produced good tools during their time..
 
Point is, if you really need it inlined, inline is not the solution.
 
8:42 PM
Yup, and if you know what you're doing, force inline is available.
 
@CatPlusPlus You crack me up. :-)
 
VS has some __forceinline or whatever thing.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes __forceinline
 
@JimNorton What.
 
8:43 PM
@JimNorton I've never heard anyone say that
 
Borland stopped existing?
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't think they've produced an up to date C or C++ compiler in many many years..
I hope I'm wrong
 
@MooingDuck I can quote @sbi on it if you want.
 
Well, good, BC++ is crap.
 
I knew a guy that used Borland, he was like 75 or something
 
8:45 PM
Also, today was so much fail. I broke the build thrice today. Maybe I should consider suicide.
 
@TonyTheLion Like sbi.
 
he probably still does today for his hobby stuff, but he must be over 80 now
@DomagojPandža sbi is not 75, by a long stretch
 
@TonyTheLion I used Borland C professionally for a few years... was a great product in my mind.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Once being ahead of MS, they totally blew their C++ compiler, and then sold it to some company named Embarcadero. I don't know what became of it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh god why
@JimNorton never used it, so cannot judge
 
sbi
8:46 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Saying what?
 
Anyway, Watcom still exists.
 
used VC 6.0, and that sucks honest to god dickballs
 
@TonyTheLion Do you really think I deserve to live if I break the build thrice in a single day?
 
@CatPlusPlus That's good to hear.
 
Nobody uses it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Surely not!
 
That Borland once had good tools.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes of course, you're a good person robot and breaking the build is not worth dying for. EVER
 
Lol.
He's a robot, not a person.
 
8:47 PM
@TonyTheLion Breaking the build is a capital offense!
 
I really should have favorited the "putting the entire STL in a vector" question :(
 
I asked in one of my interviews last week if they have a name and shame for people breaking the build, said they didn't, weren't too fond of the idea either
 
Ell
How did c++ come about having multiple implementations?
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus BC++ used to be pretty good. BC5 was a great IDE. And BCB was a very good idea: the ease of VB paired with the ferocity of C++. But then they put all their resources into their Delphi, and starved C++, so when VC7.1 appeared in 2003, they were far behind in std conformance. That's when they lost.
 
8:48 PM
complexity
 
@Ell it was designed that way, just like C was.
 
@Ell it all started when Microsoft did it wrong.
 
Finally got that damn GTK Cairo program working to generate that fucking wheel in realtime.
 
@TonyTheLion Our build server generates a meme image each time someone does it.
 
sbi
> Americans Are as Likely to Be Killed by Their Own Furniture as by Terrorism. — Micah Zenko @ theAtlantic.com
 
8:49 PM
</jest>
 
@RMartinhoFernandes har har! Which meme?
 
@Ell So that we can choose between crappy implementations instead of using a decent one.
 
"I don't usually break the build, but when I do, I do it thrice in one day"
 
@sbi Sad story...
 
For 10k+ users: stackoverflow.com/questions/10806878/how-to-undo-a-brainchip "I planted a chip in my brain, and tried to feed it data that I needed for my exam" and stackoverflow.com/questions/10029651/… "I have made a console application to count all iterations of a Guid... Im looking for any and all help to speed this puppy up."
 
8:52 PM
@MooingDuck Oh, hey, I remember those.
 
sbi
@JimNorton What makes this even sadder is that, all the time, their customers have been crying for better std-conformance. People were outraged in the Borland newsgroups about what they did, but they simply didn't listen.
 
LINK Y U NO INLINE?
 
@TonyTheLion It's random. We have "BREAK ALL THE BUILDS", "I DON'T ALWAYS COMMIT, BUT WHEN I DO, I BREAK THE BUILD", and "Y U NO COMPILE BEFORE PUSHING".
 
lol
@RMartinhoFernandes hehe
 
@sbi Yep, they messed up focusing on Delphi.
 
8:53 PM
> Stack Overflow is the most Dumbfuck Site Ever! i hate it so much. GO FUCK urself STACK OVERFLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
sure she's hot
lol
 
Hot Chick, lol
 
Wait. Wasn't that a notorious troll?
 
8:54 PM
and she's a chick or an "internet girl"
 
lol
 
I remember seeing a post by that "person".
 
> Stack Overflow is the most Dumbfuck Site Ever! i hate it so much. GO FUCK urself STACK OVERFLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Whoa, that second one has comments by Eric Lippert and Raymond Chen.
 
8:54 PM
I guess that says it all, her profile descriptoin
meh, Cat posted it before me
just saw that
 
> wanna see my titties??
 
> This user has no recent positive reputation changes
 
Yeah, not exactly prime quality, if you ask me.
 
sbi
4 mins ago, by Mooing Duck
For 10k+ users: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10806878/how-to-undo-a-brainchip "I planted a chip in my brain, and tried to feed it data that I needed for my exam" and http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10029651/fastest-way-in-c-sharp-to-iterate-through-all-guids-possible "I have made a console application to count all iterations of a Guid... Im looking for any and all help to speed this puppy up."
 
Well, shit.
That'll teach me.
 
8:56 PM
teach you what?
 
Not reading the chat.
 
@MooingDuck Someone tried to speed @DeadMG up?
 
I thought the exact same thing.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I never do that
that's why I am sometimes rather incoherent, and generally post "lol" in random places
cause "lol" fits anywhere
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh heaven help us if that is ever achieved.
lol
 
8:58 PM
Whenever I write "lol", I do it with quotes. Because there's no way I'm going to do it seriously.
 
@JimNorton yea, ghosh, can you only imagine
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Like Mrs. Cake?
 
puppy arguing at 10x the speed
he'd be done before you started
@EtiennedeMartel lol
 
Maybe we can teach him by forcing him to play checkers with himself until he learns?
NO not checkers, tic-tac-toe
 
euh, try teaching puppy something?
 
8:59 PM
@JimNorton I'd win every time.
 
That GUID question guy is so stupid I can't believe I didn't make fun of him there.
 

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