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3:00 PM
But since 9.0 just came out, I guess it'll take a while.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes They're probably installling into %APPDATA% right?
 
sbi
Well, I found a cow-worker who not only knew how to create the setting to which the tester vaguely referred, but also remembered having discussed the bug with her, and was able to repro it for me in 3mins. Great! — Oh wait, now I have to fix it... :(
 
@rubenvb Possibly. I think that's how Chrome does it.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Yep.
 
@sbi Well, at least fixing is easier than finding, right?
 
3:01 PM
kind of defeats the purpose of UAC if you ask me...
 
sbi
Paranoid as I am, I'm sure I would turn off silent updates right away.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, since the standard specifies that the dtor for t will be called at the end of the scope, and that a program that calls the dtor on a not constructed object is illformed.
 
although Nightly builds kind of defeat the purpose of safe browsing.
 
@rubenvb Why? UAC is not there to prevent using software.
 
@rubenvb What?
@rubenvb What?
 
3:02 PM
Some software doesn't even require "installation". Does that defeat the purpose of UAC too?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes no, but it does open an attack vector on that program that was also there before UAC
 
UAC is controlled privilege elevation. Does installing software into ~ defeats the purpose of sudo on Linux?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I wish. This is a component that watches a folder recursively, getting asynchronous notification events from the runtime, which it asynchronously puts into a data structure, from where they are asynchronously read for processing. Finding a bug in that beast usually requires a lot of perseverance.
 
@rubenvb What attack vector?
 
@CatPlusPlus installing stuff into ~ defeats the purpose of package management on Linux.
 
3:04 PM
@rubenvb No, it doesn't, since most package managers are too dumb to support user packages.
 
@sbi If you update, you may get new bugs/vulnerabilities. If you don't update you keep the old bugs/vulnerabilities. I think it's a pick your poison scenario anyway. I prefer the non-annoying poison :)
 
If not all of them.
 
@CatPlusPlus it allows the program to modify itself unwillingly without a request for elevated priviledges.
 
@rubenvb But that's not the purpose of UAC.
 
@CatPlusPlus euh, what? All of them I know support user packages.
 
3:05 PM
Preventing that, I mean.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, I always update ASAP. But I dislike the idea of software updating behind my back.
 
That's not an attack vector.
 
Well, there's another name for the Windows system files' protection, so the question becomes, what does UAC do?
 
Not anymore than not overwriting old software and just changing user shortcuts, so that they run the new one.
UAC elevates process privileges.
 
@rubenvb It prevents users from playing admin unwittingly. (It doesn't work, but that's the idea anyway).
 
3:06 PM
So it can modify global system stuff, for example.
It really is just sudo-like.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes understood for Windows system settings and the Control Panel etc, but then why is "Program Files" protected?
 
Yep, I see it as sudo with clicks.
 
sudo doesn't stop you from doing rm -rf /. I guess there's no purpose for sudo, then.
 
@rubenvb Because it's system-wide?
 
@rubenvb For the same reason /usr/bin is protected.
 
3:08 PM
@CatPlusPlus Actually, $ sudo rm -rf / doesn't work.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh shush there.
 
Because rm doesn't allow that.
 
I knoooooooooooooooooow.
rm --no-preserve-root -rf /
 
alone at the office, time to head on home..
 
@CatPlusPlus ok, why is that protected?
 
3:09 PM
@CatPlusPlus They should add a short form for --no-preserve-root
;)
 
Because modifying it is a system maintenance task, not something an ordinary user should do.
@RMartinhoFernandes rm -rff /
 
This whole "everybody can learn to code" meme is retarded. Most coders can't even fucking code.
I didn't know there was a meme like this.
 
@CatPlusPlus exactly, so you agree general user programs and updates is something an ordinary user shouldn't do?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes me neither
 
But installing into %APPDATA% is a "Just me" installation.
 
3:10 PM
@rubenvb System-wide programs and updates.
 
sudo rm `which rm`
 
@Potatoswatter Gosh. That's drastic.
 
If OS stops you from doing stuff in your home dir, then it's stupid.
 
^ there, safe now
 
There's always busybox rm
 
3:11 PM
@CatPlusPlus ok, fair enough
 
oh hai
 
Which hammer do you use for your nails?
 
A what for what?
 
@FredOverflow The one in the middle of the first column?
 
3:14 PM
Also, isn't left-middle one rubber?
 
There are rubber hammers?
 
Wait, no, I think it'd be the orange-end one.
Sure.
 
I guess I don't know enough about hammers.
 
They're nice for hammering furniture together, since they usually don't wreck it like a metal one.
 
A mallet is a kind of hammer, usually of rubber,or sometimes wood smaller than a maul or beetle and usually with a relatively large head. Tools Tool mallets come in different types, the most common of which are: * Rubber mallets are used when a softer blow is called for than that delivered by a metal hammer. They are typically used to form sheet metal, since they don't leave marks, as well as for forcing tight-fitting parts together, for shifting plasterboard into place, in upholstery, and a variety of other general purposes, including some toys. It is the most commonly used mall...
 
3:16 PM
big_ugly_template &foo = ...; auto &foo = ...; allowed? same thing?
 
Depends on the type of the initializer.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow "When all you have is C++, everything looks like a thumb."
4
 
The Internet is definitely the safest place to learn about hammers.
 
FredOverflow why's that?
 
@Eloff If you do int x; auto& foo = x; you get an int.
 
3:18 PM
If you have big_ugly_template &foo = big_ugly_template_bar; then they're the same.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes depends what you want to do with the nail
 
I'm going to attempt to write a Standard library-ish thing in a form that all the headers do not include any C or system headers (except perhaps stuff like <new>, <exception>, <initializer_list>). The question is: will I succeed?
 
By the way please don't use type &x syntax, it looks really strange.
@rubenvb For what purpose?
 
that's surprising to me, if you had auto &el = arr[i] you could get an int, not an int& if arr is of type int[] ?
 
@FredOverflow my own personal enrichment
 
3:20 PM
@rubenvb I'd like it if you made the standard headers magical in that they magically only brought what they're supposed to bring into scope.
 
@FredOverflow it's in the google style guide for c++, but I agree it's strange
 
And then give me the ability to use that magic.
In the end we'd have modules.
 
Right.
 
@Eloff No, you definitely get an int&. Sorry if I caused confusion with that :(
 
what's a good name for a library that provides a complete and utter replacement of namespace std?
 
3:22 PM
condom.
 
"Silly".
 
@CatPlusPlus hehe, good one ;)
 
int x = 7; auto& y = x; y = 8; printf(x); // prints 7 ?
 
I thought of Qt, but that's apparently taken.
 
@Eloff Just try it. But the answer is no.
 
3:24 PM
STUPID:
Singleton
Tight coupling
Untestability
Premature Optimization
Indescriptive Naming
Duplication
 
@rubenvb namespace also_std = ::std;
 
Without using.
I think.
 
No one ever gets that right.
 
Heck, I'm just wondering what a stdlib with a clean interface would look like
 
I'm pretty sure.
 
3:25 PM
@FredOverflow Your code proves the answer is no.
 
Also, namespace totally_not_std = std;
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, I thought he said 8 :( I guess I only see what I want to see.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'll keep to namespace nonstd until I come up with something better. Still need a library name though
 
I gave you one.
 
"Library containing nonstd namespace for some reason."
 
3:26 PM
@rubenvb How about sex? It sure sounds nicer than std, and it's somewhat related.
2
 
Anyway, off to bed. Bye.
 
@CatPlusPlus Which produces the acronym INTERCAL.
 
how about nstdstd
 
I can see the linker line already: -l"rary containing nonstd namespace for some reason"
 
@CatPlusPlus sleep tight
 
3:27 PM
you guys are hopelessly non-imaginative
 
Ok, it prints 8, that's what I would expect
 
The file would be named "liblibrary containing nonstd namespace for some reason.so.whatever" obviously.
 
ugh
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Oh yeah, let's discuss this, we hadn't have a holy war here in weeks!
 
auto& always gives you a reference then, sorry I got confused
 
3:29 PM
In an excess of childishness, and per @jbarnette and others, have aliased info, warn, error, and fatal log levels to fyi, wtf, omg, and fml.
 
@sbi Harry Hill comes to mind...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I might have needed to google FML just then :(
 
sbi
@thecoshman Well, I for sure had to.
 
You don't know Fuck My Life?
I know @sbi is old, but I thought @thecosh wasn't.
 
3:31 PM
@sbi together, we can proclaim how stupid GML is
@RMartinhoFernandes nope, never heard of FML
 
sbi
@thecoshman GML?
 
Google My Lover.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I am older then you might think
 
@thecoshman Your profile says you're younger than me.
 
3:33 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes "Google My Lover" or "Google, My Lover" or perhaps even "Google; My Lover"
@RMartinhoFernandes that's what my profile says...
 
So you admit to being a liar!
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I'm not gonna click that. I share this room with two guys.
 
It's a song named "holy war".
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I am in no one way claiming to be a liar, I am simply implying that I am older then you might think and that my profile does indeed state that I am younger then you, according to you at least.
 
@sbi What would the problem be?
No headphones?
 
sbi
3:36 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Nothing that's tight enough for that kind of "music".
 
lol
That one is pretty tame, actually.
 
@sbi oh year... you'r not keen on metal are you
 
what's the latest on file extensions for c++? Anything fancy popping up?
 
What about .c++ source file?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes don't most OSs choke on "+" and " " in file names?
at least, doesn't windows?
 
3:41 PM
@thecoshman Yes, those from before the 90s.
 
and yes... we do have accept that windows has to be supported
 
sbi
@thecoshman When I was young, I had a phase where I liked hardrock. That is long ago, but I do still have a soft(!) spot for some of that. (In a retrospective moment, I even bought a Whitesnake CD a few years ago.) I never was all that fond of metal, though.
 
@thecoshman Windows supports RTLO on filenames. I think that pretty much sums it up.
 
@sbi would a soft spot for hard rock not jsut be rock...
@RMartinhoFernandes RTLO? cba to google :P
 
Right-to-left override. It's from the crazy parts of Unicode.
 
3:44 PM
~
 
Point is, you can type almost anything into Windows filenames.
 
huh... not sure how that slipped paste... maybe I subconsciously want to go home that badly
 
The fact that some crappy programs can't handle that is another matter.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes erm... I fecked over a drive once because under linux I renamed a file so that it used a character that XP couldn't handle... windows was not happy
 
(And in part the fault of some language's standard libraries)
@thecoshman \ ?
Yes, there are a few reserved characters, because they're magical.
 
3:46 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes huh... as much as I know my grammar sucks... I still feel the need to moan about the lack of comma
 
What comma?
 
sbi
@thecoshman SVN on Windows also totally freaks out when some Unix/Mac guy changed the capitalization of a file.
@thecoshman No, you can have a soft spot in your heart for hard rock.
 
"And, in part, the fault of some languages's standard libraries"
 
Shut up, you use ellipses for commas! :P
And I don't really thing it's necessary there.
 
actually, I use the ellipses as a sign of trailing thought; the sentence is over but the tought is not
 
3:49 PM
"as much as I know my grammar sucks, I still feel the need to moan about the lack of comma"
 
@sbi What do you think of the Hellacopters?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Nothing.
Last minute flight across the country. Nearly missed boarding because of TSA. Seriously considered stripping down in the pat-down area.
A sight for sore eyes. :)
 
Because you don't know them or because you don't like them?
 
3:50 PM
TSA is insane.
I don't want to go to the US while they have TSA there.
 
it is, because the "in part" part is a clarification to the raw sentence that states "it is the fault of..."
 
sbi
@FredOverflow If I don't like them, wouldn't that require me thinking about them?
 
How would I know how your mind works?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow From observation?
 
This one is much better.
 
sbi
3:52 PM
@FredOverflow Maybe. The other two guys in the room still won't appreciate it, so I refrain.
 
@sbi well... you could know you dislike something from memory but not constantly think about it.
 
hai
 
sbi
Also, these tests running clog my machine as it is. No need to try to play video and sound alongside.
 
@thecoshman Ok, make "And in part, the fault of...". I don't see why I need to put "in part" between commas, though.
 
sbi
@thecoshman No, I don't have to think about it constantly, but I would remember what I think when asked about it.
 
3:56 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes for the reason I would do so with the name of the species in the follow "my favourite species of animal, the colossal squid, prefers to live in deep waters"
the part in the commas add as some extra clarification that is not strictly needed to make the sentence make sense
 
sbi
@thecoshman That's a very different grammatical construct, though. (Well, at least it is in German. But English comma rules seem to be even weirder than German ones, and I always thought the German ones could not be topped. Which is why I keep out of this discussion.)
 
@thecoshman That's an appositive phrase.
Mine isn't.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes true, you'r phrase is different. Though at least one of those commas where need, as was the extra 's'
 
Hey, now you're pushing it :P I can complain endlessly about missing letters in your sentences!
 
4:02 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes as robot, you have no excuse for mistakes
<check>
 
<mate>
:P
 
whats the motivation for the _t suffix for types?
 
I think in C types ending with that are reserved.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes for POSIX maybe, not in C?
 
4:04 PM
It's also a (ugly) workaround for the colour colour problem.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that works though, to an extent.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes do you mean the colour color problem?
 
What is the colour colour problem?
The situation where you have a type name with the same name as a property?
 
sbi
> C is a terse and unforgiving abstraction of silicon.
I like that.
 
so there really is no reason for the _t suffix?
is a typedef as strong as a builtin type?
 
4:09 PM
Well, it's a kind of meta hungarian notation :)
 
C is considered to be a portable assembler. But if that is the case, then why was LLVM bytecode developed?
 
@rubenvb A typedef is just an alias, you don't introduce a new type.
@StackedCrooked Even VMs have assembly languages, don't they? ;)
 
@FredOverflow Why didn't it use C as its assembly language? I know it's probably a dumb question, but I learn most from dumb questions. Hm, I wonder what that says about me...
 
I don't even know what LLVM is, so...
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked I think LLVM is much more semantically rich than C.
 
4:12 PM
does GCC have builtin types like __int* for MSVC?
 
@FredOverflow That's impressive, given that you hang around here often.
@sbi Yeah. And the obvious reason is probably that C isn't really designed to be portable assembler.
 
@StackedCrooked LLVM bitcode isn't portable either
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked I think it is. But portable to machines of the late 60s/early 70s.
 
@rubenvb It isn't? Or are you pulling my leg and playing with words (as in Java isn't portable, it only works on the Java VM!)
 
@StackedCrooked no, seriously, at least bitcode coming from Clang isn't portable (how could it, C-ish languages have ABI considerations)
 
4:15 PM
@StackedCrooked you could say that same for a lot of things. "X is fully portable on all platforms that X supports"
 
@TonyTheLion I have to disagree with half the stuff there. The software engineering field is too diverse to expect a student to master all of that.
 
@rubenvb LLVM bytecode is not even native code. How can it be portable? I just mean that it must be compilable to native code.
 
I'm thinking that the information presented in college should be abstract from any single technology
 
@Xaade Pure math?
 
@Xaade it should, but that takes a little bit more effort then a lot of people are willing to put in
 
4:17 PM
He says, technology X isn't going away soon, so we must include it in an undergrad degree. That's a logical fallacy.
@StackedCrooked I'm not saying you can't use a technology to teach concepts. But the focus of the education should be on concepts, not technologies
 
@StackedCrooked huh?
 
@StackedCrooked I saw a comic to that effect earlier
 
@Xaade I would not be able to grasp programming if I was never allowed to touch a computer.
 
@CatPlusPlus unlink anyone?
 
@rubenvb Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I assume bitcode = byte code = intermediate language.
 
4:20 PM
@StackedCrooked yeah, but what you're saying made no sense to me whatsoever.
 
@rubenvb Why would the intermediate language be tied to a platform? Doesn't that defeat the point?
 
@StackedCrooked it's not the language, it's the translation of the higher-level language that is influenced (structs vs pointers for function arguments etc...)
@FredOverflow is there anything I'm missing by only using MSVC's __int* types vs the other pre-existing types?
 
@rubenvb What types? And what do you mean by "missing"?
You sure lose portability.
 
@rubenvb Yes, portability :D
 
what's wrong with <stdint.h> ?
 
4:26 PM
@Eloff it's one of those headers I'm trying to avoid including
 
why?
 
1 hour ago, by rubenvb
@FredOverflow my own personal enrichment
 
He wants to write a non-portable non-standard library for an unknown purpose.
 
no, that would be the MSVC solution, duh
GCC/clang would have other types, but I guess they don't have the fixed-width stuff builtin
 
sbi
@FredOverflow non-purpose?
 
4:28 PM
Ah, I get it, he doesn't want to use <stdint.h> because he's bat shit crazy
 
yup
 
@sbi Is that a word?
 
can char ever be unsigned?
 
4:29 PM
damn. What's the fundamental 8-bit signed integer type then?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow If not, I just created it.
 
you could always make your own stdint header then with #ifdefs to ensure the types are the right size on the right platform
 
@rubenvb signed char?
 
@Eloff that's what I'm doing ;-)
 
I put some water boiling to make some tea. I get a call on my phone, and since the reception inside the house is a bit sucky, I go out to take it. And I close the fucking door. Without the keys.
I'm stupid as fuck.
 
4:30 PM
@FredOverflow ah, didn't know that worked :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes When was that?
 
@rubenvb int8_t.
@FredOverflow Just now.
 
And you have internet outside of your house?
 
There was almost no water left when I came in.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you're not following are you?
 
4:31 PM
Doesn't your thing shut off automatically when the water boils?
 
@FredOverflow I went to the landlady and used her spare key.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeh I do that kind of stupid shit too, I prefer to think of it as a side effect of geniusness
 
I'm back inside now.
 
Landlady? Inside? Awesome.
 
GCC makes short 16-bit right? (on any normal platform)
 
4:32 PM
@rubenvb No. I'm pissed off.
 
short is 16 bits on most platforms, yes
 
@rubenvb You could just look at GCC's stdint.h, you know.
 
That would be cheating.
 
you guys are probably faster
lol
that was a joke
 
4:33 PM
Or you could make a template.
It takes the size in bits, a signedness, and a bunch of fundamental types and picks the first one that matches.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that would be the "unknown platform plan"
 
Sounds like overkill. I like it!
 
There should be a std::uint<N>.
Sometimes you want "a type that is twice this one I have here" and in that case it would come in very handy.
 
Ell
I dont understand why it is nesesary to know the size of the types? is it for optimisation?
or in case you overflow?
 
@Ell that's my primary concern here
 
4:38 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I implemented this (you may have seen me mentioning it a few hours ago).
 
Ell
@rubenvb overflow?
 
@Ell yeah, to know when overflow occurs.
 
@Ell Some (most) protocols have data with fixed-width. It helps to use the correct one.
 
Ell
well I'm new to c++ and have never really encountered overflow before
 
4:39 PM
You can use typedef Unsigned<N>::Type or typedef Signed<N>::Type. Naturally it only works for N in range [1..8].
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes cant you just write a certain number of bytes to the file?
 
@StackedCrooked typename.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Hmm, seemed to have worked without typename.
 
@StackedCrooked Oh, N is known?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah, yes it was in my code.
 
4:42 PM
@Ell But you can't read 4-bytes into a 16-bit integer, nor can you write 4-bytes from a 16-bit integer.
 
@Ell but then a byte is not well-defined either.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Unsigned<sizeof(T) * 2>::Type // here N is also known
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you can if your byte is 4 bits
 
Ell
@rubenvb I thought a byte was always an octet? 8 bits?
 
@rubenvb Bytes can't be less than 8 bits. (C++11)
Bytes can't be less than 7 bits (old C++)
 
Ell
4:43 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes why cant you do that? they have enough space? Or is that functionality just not built?
 
right forgot about that
 
@Ell C++ requires it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How disappointing.
 
@Ell it's so that a char can store a UTF-8 thing
 
Ell
@rubenvb I thought thats what wchar was for? or wchar_t or something
 
4:44 PM
wchar_t is for Windows. Basically.
 
Ell
oh
 
@StackedCrooked In my (not yet existing) implementation it's just uint<sizeof(T)*2> (no ::type :P)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, the only time I ever used it is when working with Windows API code.
 
Hi to all,
Anyone who can (and wants!) help me with this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8744995/sam-broadcaster-streaming-encoding-error
 
sbi
@user726730 What's that got to do with C++?
 
Ell
4:47 PM
more suited for super user methinks
anyone else?
 
Not this seems like a fun thing to do: support Unsigned<N> for any value of positive N. Fallback on emulation if needed (design a class that behaves as a integer).
 
@sbi It's universal problem
A charset/encoding problem :)
 
@StackedCrooked That would be easy if you could make overflow undefined.
 
sbi
@user726730 And this is a chat room for C++ programmers.
 
yesterday here some guys talk about music, even talk about programming
 
4:49 PM
Is that question even about programming?
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes dont think so...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Can this be improved? Especially, can I get rid of the bar template?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's not? i don't think so
 
@FredOverflow It's screaming for a template alias.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What do you mean? Please elaborate.
 
4:51 PM
@user726730 I don't know what sam and icecast are, that's why I'm asking if it is.
 
icecast is a audio streaming server
 
@FredOverflow template <size_t N> using int = foo<N / 8>;
 
sam broadcaster is a console who mix your songs and send the data for streaming to icecast
 
And if you want to get rid of bar you can do it with specializations.
@user726730 Doesn't sound like programming to me.
 
maybe i must change something in the configuration file of icecast
This is programming
 
4:55 PM
@user726730 Please explain why it is programming. I don't want to migrate this to superuser erroneously.
@FredOverflow Why the check for long?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes In case int is 16 bits and long is 32 bits.
 
Maybe in some line of .conf file of icecast says DefaultCharSet ISO-8859-1
This must be changed (if it be)
and then restart icecast service
if you believe that this question is for superuser just flag it (no-problem)
 
@FredOverflow Ah, so you're assuming the size of all types, except for int?
No, not that.
You're assuming some types, but I can't tell which ones.
 

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