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2:00 PM
@FredOverflow ... over my head that one
 
sbi
@thecoshman Yeah, "threw" is the past, "throw" the present. I know that. I was getting at them sounding different, and the past form rhyming to "through", not the present one.
@thecoshman "homophone" != "homophobe"
 
@sbi like I said... I no Engrish greatly
@sbi I know the difference, but only now do I see what he did
 
sbi
@thecoshman That's what I figured, so I wrote them side-by-side.
Homophobia: the fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women.
 
@sbi your like the father I never had... and that sentence is a very strange one for me to write
 
sbi
@thecoshman Huh?
 
2:04 PM
@sbi you seem to understand my flaws and very willing to help accommodate them with out making me feel stupid. ignore the later
 
sbi
@thecoshman It's just as I said: I came in contact with a few legasthenics when I studied. Intelligence has nothing to do with this. All of them were extremely bright, most probably more intelligent than I was. Thankfully, teachers start to understand this. When I was a kid, such pupils would be looked down at, and likely ended up in a special school, among children with learning disabilities. It's downhill from there.
 
@sbi luckily I think my problems are limited just to poor English skills... needless I didn't do too well at it in school
 
sbi
At least your consistent:
Few, turns out my code does work fine. Thought it was strange that my DirectX would through XNA related warnings :P
:)
 
It's "phew".
And "you're".
Hi.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Shh! I didn't tell him that back then!
 
2:13 PM
¬_¬
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Blush.
 
thanks bud
 
@thecoshman It's OK that you didn't do it well, being needless.
 
@Potatoswatter year... universities tend not to agree with that so much
though it's not that much of an issue really
seems what I lack in English, I make up for in lucky job getting skills :D
 
sbi
@thecoshman He was making fun of you saying "needless..." instead of "needless to say..."
@thecoshman Debbie has something to say about that:
Behind every successful man is his woman. Behind the fall of a successful man is usually another woman.
:)
 
2:16 PM
@sbi did you notice I also miss words out :P
 
Legasthenic is dyslexic?
 
@sbi because I totally know who that is
 
The man is, in turn, behind that woman.
 
@Potatoswatter gigaddy!
 
sbi
@thecoshman You're on Twitter and don't know Debbie?! Well, now you do. Go, explore!
 
2:21 PM
@sbi I think I have seen to odd tweet here and there... worth following you say?
Never assume anything but the position.
I think that answers my question quite well :D
 
sbi
@thecoshman Much of what she says is, um, below my taste, but she throws a few pearls a week I wouldn't want to miss.
 
@sbi are you one of those fellows who where a really high belt?
 
sbi
@thecoshman That's one of the rather dull ones, IYAM.
 
@sbi took me a moment to work out what IYAM meant. I's ok... will have a proper look when I get home
 
@thecoshman That's mister tall-pants to you!
 
sbi
2:25 PM
@thecoshman I don't even know that expression.
 
@Potatoswatter I am thinking family guy here
 
sbi
There are some places in the world where even I’m considered normal. I don’t want to visit any of them.
I've discovered the secret of life............ Breathing.
When your wife/girlfriend asks,"Do I look fat?" the correct response is, "Do I look stupid?"
 
@sbi 4chan?
 
sbi
@thecoshman How would I know?
 
@sbi so much for plants and presumably fish (? not a zoologist)
 
sbi
2:26 PM
@sehe That one went over my head.
 
@sbi you could have asked her
 
Plants are outside zoology, so no excuse there.
 
@thecoshman Anything that doesn't breath doesn't have the secret (of life)?
@Potatoswatter Parentheses have higher operator precedence than conjunctions in English (need to locate the standards section on that)
 
sbi
@sehe Oh, now I get it.
 
Fish do breathe.
 
sbi
2:28 PM
@sehe Fish turn O2 into CO2, so they do breathe. And plants are famous for doing the opposite. I suppose that counts as breathing, too.
 
What do you think gills are for?
 
gills?
 
Respiration may refer to: ; Biology * Respiratory system, the anatomical system of an organism used for respiration * Cellular respiration, the process in which nutrients are converted into useful energy in a cell * Respiration (physiology) and breathing, the physiological process that enables animals to exchange carbon dioxide, the primary product of cellular respiration, for fresh air * Anaerobic respiration, cellular respiration without oxygen * Aquatic respiration, the process of animals extracting oxygen from water * Maintenance respiration, the amount of cellular respiration require...
 
Yes, gills. Magical apparatus that allow fish to breathe underwater.
 
sbi
A gill is a respiratory organ found in many aquatic organisms that extracts dissolved oxygen from water, afterward excreting carbon dioxide. The gills of some species such as hermit crabs have adapted to allow respiration on land provided they are kept moist. The microscopic structure of a gill presents a large surface area to the external environment. Many microscopic aquatic animals, and some that are larger but inactive, can absorb adequate oxygen through the entire surface of their bodies, and so can respire adequately without a gill. However, more complex or more active aquatic org...
 
2:29 PM
@sbi turning O2 into CO2 is not breathing, that is respiration. Breathing is the expansion the a chest cavity to draw in
 
The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis is an American sitcom that aired on CBS from 1959 to 1963. The series and some episode scripts were adapted from a 1951 collection of short stories of the same name, written by Max Shulman, that also inspired the 1953 film The Affairs of Dobie Gillis with Debbie Reynolds, Bob Fosse, and Bobby Van as Dobie Gillis. A follow-up novel, I Was a Teen-Age Dwarf, appeared in 1959. The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis was produced by Martin Manulis Productions in association with 20th Century Fox Television; creator Shulman also wrote the theme song in collaboration with ...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes dammit. why does everyone keep speaking English
 
Stupid redirect evaluation
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter "gills" != "gillis"
@thecoshman Oh. I guess this is the furriner in me. I think both those translate to the same German word.
 
@thecoshman Dammit. Now I'm the one getting my English wrong.
 
2:31 PM
Furriner = person who travels overseas to dress up like a skunk?
 
What kind of language distinguishes breathing from respiration?
 
sbi
> In physiology, respiration (often confused with breathing) is defined as the transport of oxygen from the outside air to the cells within tissues, and the transport of carbon dioxide in the opposite direction. Wikipedia
 
@RMartinhoFernandes one the acknowledges they are to different things
 
sbi
> Breathing is the process that moves air in and out of the lungs. Wikipedia
 
2:33 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes spelling I suck at... grammar too. but random shit I know!
3
 
@thecoshman But they're not different! I'm invoking Sapir-Whorf here. My mind is shaped to make them the same.
 
@sbi and as fish have no lungs... apart from those freak fish... they can't breath
 
I want to capture a reference to an array (well boost::scoped_array) element in a lambda. I wrote: foo &f = arr[i]; [&f]() { ... } is that correct? Should it be [=f]? Do I even need to declare f? e.g. [&arr[i]]
 
@RMartinhoFernandes clearly, you need your dictionary file updated
 
These c++11 lambdas are taking a bit to get used to
 
2:35 PM
&f, to be on the safe side, and explicit.
 
where's the faq that explains how to overload common operators correctly? (including style advice)
 
@sbi, it's your move.
 
Thanks. I guess there is no such thing in c++ as a reference to a reference, the compiler will do the right thing.
 
Terrestrial molluscs and most terrestrial arthropods lack lungs yet respire with air.
 
@Eloff I'm pretty certain that =f would copy it (the value, not the reference).
 
2:37 PM
@Eloff Unnecessary, just do [&] and then arr[i] in the lambda
 
@RMartinhoFernandes +1
 
@Eloff In C++03, a reference to a reference is illegal. In C++11, the right thing happens. (And deciding what was the right thing contributed much to delaying the standard.)
 
I don't like "capture anythings".
 
and make the lambda mutable if you wanted to modify arr[i]
In that case, I'd [&arr], really
@RMartinhoFernandes +1 again
 
sbi
@rubenvb It's here. All FAQs can be found in the tag.
 
2:38 PM
DeadMG: Inside a loop? Does that work? In javascript or python or c# that would fail
 
And I say that being used to C#'s always "capture anything" lambdas.
 
I like [this]. Peppering a program with something so randomly obtuse is just awesome.
 
@Potatoswatter noon said that you need to breath to respire
 
I prefer capture-anything
 
@sbi thanks, I'll remember that one
 
2:39 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes ReSharper to the rescue again (potential access to modified closure or something like that)
 
@DeadMG Hah, capturing i (assuming a loop counter) by reference will bite you.
 
@DeadMG I prefer 'take no prisoners' :)
 
@sehe Yeah, I love that one. Saved my ass a couple times.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Why?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that's what I thought
 
2:40 PM
oooh... only just noticed that if I leave my mouse over the last message, I effectivley have automatic reference highlighting :D
 
Weekend!
 
sbi
@thecoshman Did we mention you're rather new here?
 
@DeadMG Because you're no longer capturing the "current element in the array at the time of creation", but you're now capturing "the element that is at whatever value of i the loop is at the time of execution".
 
@thecoshman not effectivley - you have it, and not 'if you leave your mouse cursor ' but 'when you hover'
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Did you just have your exam?
 
2:41 PM
@sbi no, do go on
 
which are only different things if the lambda is called after the loop ends or on different iterations
 
@sbi exam (examen is a Germanism)
 
whereas the vast, vast majority of lambda uses are directly inline
 
That was in the morning, this last class was boring sit-through-and-don't-even-pretend-to-be-listening.
 
sbi
@sehe Thanks. (And how would you know? Are you a German?)
 
2:42 PM
@DeadMG Since you couldn't possibly know that, [&] was not the best of advice.
 
When the lambda (closure) is executed i doesn't have the value that it did when the lambda was created, but rather the last value of i when it exited the loop (or at least that's how it works in other languages) If you captured it by value I think it would be fine.
 
Well, you're German and it's not proper English.
:P
 
what I meant was that if I leave the mouse at the bottom, as new messages come in I can see what they refer to thus making it a lot easier to follow the chat
 
It's deducible!
 
@sbi No, I'm Dutch. I was guessing ((mis)remembering?) that you are German
 
2:42 PM
@Eloff In C++, it's worse. It's UB.
 
I know it because it's by far and away the most likely
 
i goes out of scope?
 
like "Do I need to optimize for performance?"
 
2:43 PM
oh shiznit, I wasn't aware of std::to_string until now..
 
@Eloff Right.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus I thought this would be a non-deducible context...
 
that makes sense for c++ actually
 
...
 
But if the array lives longer than the loop, capturing the &f from auto& f = arr[i]; is safe.
 
2:44 PM
too much time with gc languages where objects don't die if someone has a reference to them...
 
sbi
Anyway, there's this bug I failed to reproduce so far, logged by the tester who's at home tending a sick child. Knowing her well enough, I guess I need to increase my efforts to reproduce that. :( I don't think anyone has ever caught her logging a bug that wasn't a true bug.
 
Lack of GC is not a good thing when closures enter the picture.
 
Exactly because there are no references to reference. Capturing the f by reference is the same as capturing a reference to arr[i], there's no reference to a local variable involved (again, assuming arr is not local to the loop).
 
@sbi maybe she is just messing with you
 
sbi
@thecoshman No, she isn't. She's great tester. If she files a bug and I can't find it, then I just know it's my failure I can't find it.
 
2:46 PM
I've got to get used to c++ all over again
 
@CatPlusPlus No, that's not true at all
a reference in a lambda is no different to a reference or pointer as a member variable
 
@sbi can't you just ask her to give you more info on it?
 
there's nothing special about closures that increase the need for GC compared to any other pointer
 
this has to be the most complicated programming language in the world
 
@sbi or perhaps it can wait until she is able to show it to you?
 
2:48 PM
it most assuredly is not
 
sbi
@thecoshman While she's at home tending a sick child? It's hardly fair to expect her to remember every bug she has logged in the last four weeks.
 
It's useful for closures to prolong the life of variables it's closed over.
 
no different to prolonging the life of any other variable
 
sbi
@thecoshman I could, the R&D boss doesn't want to, though.
 
DeadMG: it's just surprising I guess if you're used to closures in other languages
 
2:49 PM
C++'s rules for lifetimes and such aren't complicated at all
 
@DeadMG you know a more complex programming language?
 
they're very simple, in fact
Malbolge :P
 
@DeadMG But you have to think about them. That is enough to throw many programmers off ;)
3
 
yes
 
I have one word for you before you reply: template meta-programming
 
2:49 PM
but they're not complicated
they just don't have "INSERT MAGIC HERE"
 
@DeadMG Well, lifetime in Malbolge is even simpler. Everything lives until the program ends.
 
TMP is arcane only because of syntax.
 
I guess that's two words, I need more coffee
 
@Eloff Also not complicated, just strange syntax, but you'll get accustomed to it.
 
TMP is nothing compared to Malbolge
 
2:50 PM
Since the lifetime rules depend on the rules for being POD, I think that makes them complicated…
 
There's nothing complicated about sane metaprogramming.
 
Malbolge is complicated mainly because of things like the "crazy" operator (that's really its name).
TMP is pure functional programming with types and crazy syntax.
 
It's not such a hard concept to grasp, but it's certainly complicated to write and read TMP
 
@RMartinhoFernandes types and integral values
 
Because syntax and stupid limitations.
 
2:52 PM
@Potatoswatter I'm pretty sure that an object on the stack or heap lives for exactly the same time regardless of what type it is
 
(=<`:9876Z4321UT.-Q+*)M'&%$H"!~}|Bzy?=|{z]KwZY44Eq0/{mlk**
hKs_dG5[m_BA{?-Y;;Vb'rR5431M}/.zHGwEDCBA@98\6543W10/.R,+O<
 
Metaprogramming as a concept (in context of C++) is just "execute this thing at compile-time".
 
Come on! Esoteric programming languages don't count!
 
@CatPlusPlus yes, although constexpr seems to fix some of that
 
Meh, still can't use strings as template arguments.
 
2:52 PM
@DeadMG Search the standard for "object lifetime"… I'm not sure you said what you meant to, then.
 
@Potatoswatter What do you mean?
 
constexpr is rather limited, too.
 
PODs live since there is memory for them until there isn't anymore memory for them.
 
not really bothered about what the language lawyers defined it to be
 
Non-PODs live from the ctor to the dtor.
 
2:53 PM
It is, but it makes some uses of TMP more readable
 
but since in reality all code is generic for both, it makes zero difference
 
@Eloff Template aliases help a lot.
No more typename pollution all over.
 
@FredOverflow Object lifetime begins after the the initialization completes, unless the object is is trivially constructible, in which case it begins once memory is allocated. Similarly for end of lifetime.
 
Ah, okay. Does that make any difference in practice?
 
if you have new T, it lives until delete T is called, regardless of what type T is
if you have T t; then it lives until the end of scope, regardless of what type T is
 
2:55 PM
Yes, a big difference if you're integrating a memory manager into your program.
 
Can't you just pretend that PODs have constructors that immediately finish? Then there's no difference, is there?
 
Well, if you are trying to follow the object model, anyway. Really you can get away with ignoring the specified semantic requirements.
 
@DeadMG don't forget static
 
Can you do T t; t.~T(); ::new(&t) T();?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, it's somewhere in the standard.
 
2:56 PM
yes, you probably can
but if you do dodgy shit like that, then what you get is your own fault
 
@FredOverflow It's not POD, precisely, it's trivially constructible/destructible. And the issue is when non-trivial construction is required.
 
@FredOverflow It's a bit dangerous if the second ctor fails, no?
 
Of course it's dangerous. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's not dangerous. This is C++ we're talking about :)
 
there's a difference between "dangerous" and "absolutely fucking stupid"
 
Silent updates without UAC prompts is now live on #Firefox #Nightly for Windows, making Nightly builds on average 30x/month more awesome.
Finally! Can't wait for this to go mainline.
 

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