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9:00 AM
@sehe Yes, and knowing that it might have happened is not the same as knowing it.
 
@rightfold There's not much riddle
 
@thecoshman like so
 
user1804599
The analyzer must assume the worst-case scenario.
 
@Puppy Who said that. Is there a point you're trying to make?
 
Hm...
I just recently concluded that pass-by-copy is still the best default
 
9:00 AM
Andy's original statement asked if Rust can catch use-after-moves.
he did not ask if they can theorize about maybe catching use-after-moves.
being able to say that it may have occurred does not satisfy the definition.
 
user1804599
What's nice about Rust as well is that if you explicitly call the dtor, it won't be called implicitly anymore afterwards.
 
@LucDanton nice, a bit strict, too much to apply to all that crappy legacy code
 
@Puppy Rust does not look for 'definitely moves'.
 
user1804599
So { let x = f(); drop(x); } won't call the dtor twice.
 
I see
 
9:01 AM
> catch
I definitely interpreted that differently than you do then. Best to ask Andy, not me :)
 
then we can conclusively and easily state that the answer to his question is "No, it can't."
 
@Puppy What definition did you use ^
 
It does, though. Rust did not invent linear/affine type systems either.
 
@puppy but there is a difference between knowing that it IS used, and knowing that you might use, or more specifically, knowing that you do not move and thus are safe to use.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton linear type system, that's the word I was looking for. Where a value can only be in one place at once.
 
user1804599
9:04 AM
Due to the undecidability of the halting problem and the Turing-completeness of Rust you will always retain false negatives.
 
@Xeo It’s 'exactly once'. Affine is 'at most once'.
E.g. \x: T. 0 doesn’t type check where T is a linear type
 
@sehe That to satisfy Andy, Rust would have to be able to answer "yes" or "no" definitively in every case.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton mh. so if you take a value, you have to use it?
 
@Xeo Yeah.
 
Xeo
I see
 
9:10 AM
9 mins ago, by sehe
I definitely interpreted that differently than you do then. Best to ask Andy, not me :)
 
I really should stop testing such long loops on coliru :\
 
@thecoshman It's really hardly different from C#/Java detection of (potentially) uninitialized variables
@thecoshman You are... testing loops?
 
@sehe erm... if I boil it down to simple terms... yes :P
more specifically though, generating data during iteration rather than building a big collection of all the data
 
Anyone here who's on Linux with good 3d accel support bored enough to test something out for me?
 
@sehe It's a bit more complex because of the whole mutable refs that could be mutated at any time thing. In Java other people can't randomly mutate or initialize your locals.
 
Xeo
9:13 AM
@LucDanton how'd you do stuff like unused(x) in those languages, i.e. ignore parameters? I guess you'll need language support in that case.
 
@Puppy Rust doesn’t allow you to move out of a reference. This is no accident.
 
user1804599
Speaking of type systems, I wish Scala allowed arbitrary method calls on variables of the bottom type.
 
user1804599
So (throw x).foobarhaha would work and have type bottom.
 
@Xeo I’m not sure. Keep in mind that’s more CS than programming per se. I don’t think you’re supposed to have an unused parameter.
 
Xeo
mh
 
9:14 AM
@Puppy I know! I was replying to the pirate.
 
@LucDanton I guess that if you can't randomly move from a reference, then it shouldn't be too hard in the majority of cases.
 
@LucDanton Oh, so they did it sanely, at least.
 
@LucDanton Then how would you write a move constructor?
 
user1804599
btw @Ven I won't add Flow to Nok.
 
user1804599
It's too difficult to do that.
 
9:16 AM
@Puppy You don’t, although that has to do with fundamental choices in the language.
 
user1804599
All ways to introduce new types are library features.
 
The tl;dr is that constructing, copying and moving are not user-definable.
Instead 'smart copy' is done through the Clone trait (and its clone method).
 
user1804599
Alright, let's write a ctags-to-SQLite converter.
 
@LucDanton That sounds like it would eliminate a vast number of useful types.
 
user1804599
Ah ctags can be told to emit line numbers instead of Vim commands.
 
9:20 AM
@rightfold I bet that exists. Also, what's the use? Is binary search not fancy enough
 
@Puppy It doesn’t. You can have the same functionality, but syntactically you put it elsewhere than construction/initialization/assignment syntax.
 
@rightfold And that's usually not what you want (unless the code is completely stationary)
 
@LucDanton Ah well I'm not too bothered about syntactically. Semantically, though, writing a move constructor or any syntactic equivalent would require moving from a reference.
 
user1804599
@sehe it is.
 
user1804599
I reindex the code on every Git receive.
 
9:22 AM
What can your C++-style move constructor do that a Rust-style user-defined clone + language-provided move can’t do?
 
@LucDanton So for doing initialization stuff you'd normally do in a constructor, you have to call some init thing?
 
@Griwes Yeah.
 
@rightfold So? What's it for? The Vim commands based on patterns are so you still get sensible results even after you inserted a line in your edit buffer
 
I need to get a haircut
meeh
 
@LucDanton That... sucks.
I want my objects to always be in valid state.
Having to do init() effectively makes that impossible.
 
9:24 AM
@LucDanton Well, the obvious thing is that you'd have to call the user-defined clone yourself.
 
@Griwes You have access control over some things, I forget how it goes though.
 
@Griwes I think this is exactly what Rust is trying to achieve. I'd be surprised if, in the process, they managed to leave a hole
 
@Griwes Ah no, it’s more like make_* factories.
 
also, this sounds terribly similar to D's postblit system.
 
Sort of.
 
9:25 AM
one obvious category of class that doesn't work with that is SSO/SBO-style things or any object with a pointer into itself.
 
user1804599
@sehe finding uses of functions and variables quickly in all active branches so I can estimate the impact of deprecation.
 
@LucDanton But inside of those you have objects that aren't quite initialized.
So.. not much stops you from doing that.
 
user1804599
Querying the code base without pulling all commits in locally.
 
@rightfold Only useful if you control all codebases in existence?
 
user1804599
@sehe It's internal APIs.
 
9:25 AM
@Griwes Well… just like in C++-style constructors?
 
Xeo
The constructor of a type in Rust is its factory function, effectively.
 
@LucDanton For the outside world.
 
2 mins ago, by Luc Danton
@Griwes You have access control over some things, I forget how it goes though.
Think ML-style smart constructors
 
@rightfold You're going to keep snapshots of the index in version control, and a database that contains the combined snapshots?
@rightfold sounds like you're way overengineering, then :) Of course, don't let that stop you if it's fun
 
@LucDanton I can't help but read that as a smily
 
user1804599
9:28 AM
@sehe No, a daemon on a server pulls from Git and indexes all code per branch.
 
user1804599
I can then add a command to query the index to our bot.
 
lol this is really cool soapstone.io
in dark souls players were able to leave messages on the ground for other players to find (even in single player), so you'd often see things like "beware of enemy"
with that you can leave messages IRL
 
@Griwes The outside world cannot construct as long as some fields are private. Access-control is at the module level IIRC.
 
0.11 is finally declared stable! Stabilising the MP was one of the biggest tests of our patience and skills. We are focused on 0.12 now.
WOOOOHOOOOO
IT IS TIME //cc @CatPlusPlus @Xeo @Ell @thecoshman @R.m @Puppy @Jefffrey
 
The buffer is a blocker. UB will snuff your pet dog and eat an airplane for lunch. The fact that it appears to work is no solace. This is why C++ has the reputation of allowing you to blow your foot off. Do not play fast and loose with Undefined Behaviour. — sehe 2 mins ago
Another "boohoo C++ is hard to use correctly" case
 
9:32 AM
What's with all these "stable" versions with ridiculous numbers? Should be >= 1.0
That one is way too small.
 
@Cicada not starring that
 
@Puppy Yeah, that’s where it differs. E.g. you cannot copy a String. That’s where you clone().
 
@BartekBanachewicz hehe
 
@BartekBanachewicz some one set up server, chop chop
 
Rust copy == C++ trivial copy
 
9:33 AM
@thecoshman I can, but IIRC they said something about P2P mesh architecture
 
@LucDanton Okay, that kinda makes sense. I still prefer C++ style constructors, though - since it doesn't force you to spell the ::new part there.
 
and I just brought Citires last night :P
 
If the type is not trivially copyable, you can’t use the syntax
 
@BartekBanachewicz i'm imitating you
 
9:33 AM
@BartekBanachewicz oooh... interesting...
 
@LucDanton Except the Rust one is better, of course
 
@LucDanton Oh. Another point on my "Rust replaces C more than it replaces C++" list.
I accidentally a word.
 
Xeo
lol
 
if anything i'd say Rust replaces Haskell, not C or C++ whistles
 
Xeo
9:34 AM
it replaces neither, how 'bout that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz :D
 
@Cicada no, V1 is when you have your minimum features you want to 'release' as a 'done' thing.
 
incidentally
boost Version 1.58.0 released! 2 new libraries: Endian & Sort http://www.boost.org/users/history/version_1_58_0.html #cpp #cplusplus
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh, I cam to a realisation last night. Erlang, nice clean functional language, combined with Perl, nice language if you can grock the ungodly operator vomit, and you get Haskell :D
 
@thecoshman you're not particularly good at this PLT thing ;)
 
user1804599
9:36 AM
@sehe ever used GNU GLOBAL?
 
@BartekBanachewicz PLT?
 
@thecoshman Programming Language Theory
Also Perl isn't nice even if you remove the operators. It's nice if you remove p much everything.
 
@rightfold yeah, briefly. No conscious recollection anymore. So, summary is that it left no positive impression :/
 
@BartekBanachewicz the aim is to wind you up :P
 
wroom wroom
 
9:37 AM
> Includes spreadsort, a general-case hybrid radix sort that is faster than O(n*log(n))
was that QS's complexity?
interesting
 
user1804599
@sehe :[
 
@BartekBanachewicz YES I've been using endian for a while now
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oooooh, endian.
Shiny.
 
@AlexM. yes
 
user1804599
9:39 AM
Let's give cscope another try.
 
@AlexM. if you know the range of the data upfront, you can sort in O(N)
 
range as in the smallest and largest value in the structure?
 
say, if you're sorting characters [a..z], you can just create an array indexed by characters, and increment the values in appropraite indexes
@AlexM. see above
 
oh that
 
then you just repeat each character an appropriate number of times, starting with a
 
user1804599
9:40 AM
aaah I passed the wrong flag to cscope yesterday
 
user1804599
that's why it acted like grep
 
user1804599
Awesome, it works. :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's called a counting sort
 
@rightfold nice. cflow is new for me
@rightfold At least it's open source. They have a custom database underneath. Presumably very close to what your sqlite dream thing is made of
@rightfold you suck :)
 
@Cicada radix sort is based on that IIRC
 
9:43 AM
Correct
 
> non-comparative integer sorting algorithm that sorts data with integer keys by grouping keys by the individual digits which share the same significant position and value. A positional notation is required, but because integers can represent strings of characters (e.g., names or dates) and specially formatted floating point numbers, radix sort is not limited to integers
 
Thank you I know what a radix sort is!
It's not like we use those every day in GPU
 
> Autodetection of return types for visitors in C++14, which makes it possible to use boost::apply_visitor with generic lambdas
I have just written that some 4 months ago and now boost guys added it. :F
 
> Boost.Log (Fixed build failure on GNU Hurd)
lol
 
lol
 
user1804599
9:46 AM
@sehe I can't find a list of supported languages, though.
 
user1804599
It even finds function calls in Python doctests. Awesome.
 
> Breaking change: Compile time checked getter is now used by default in boost::get<U>(VariantT) and boost::polymorphic_get<U>(VariantT). New getter asserts that type U is one of the types that can be stored in VariantT.
fucking finally.
only took like 10 years or whatever
 
so, Python won the poll as the best first language
interesting
 
user1804599
:(
 
57% python
2nd place: Lua, 42%
3rd place: Erlang, 41%
Lisp was a runner-up with 38%
 
9:52 AM
lol what the actual fuck
 
I didn't know you were so against Haskell, Bartek.
and that you think C is a good language to learn
 
well the results are p much meaningless vOv
too much vandalism anyway
 
Oh, are they?
I promise I didn't Vladalise anything
5
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz oh kewl
 
What "vandalism"?
 
9:54 AM
@Ell might try this weekend or something
dunno if others have time
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, I'd seen that when the nominations came out. I'm really not sure what to think of it.
 
I negated your Haskell and C entries for a laugh (and I'm amazed it took you days to spot that) but that's it. I haven't seen anyone else's numbers changed.
I think the real problem is in the way you summarise the results.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I'm prolly busy tomorrow but sunday is good for me atm
 
k
I was planning on disassembling my bike's front panel tomorrow anyway
 
Everybody sort of agrees that those languages are decent-enough for a noob to learn, even though they would not ever suggest doing so in the first instance. But everybody disagrees on what they would suggest learning in the first instance.
 
9:55 AM
for all I know this can take hours :S
 
@BartekBanachewicz With IDA Pro?
 
A 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place (rather than [-100%,100%]) system would have been more conclusive.
With points allocated to each language per vote based on its 1st/2nd/3rd-place status within that vote
 
@LightningRacisinObrit it worked for previous polls.
 
Ell
I hope you people have all watched better call saul
 
9:57 AM
@Ell No because I haven't watched Breaking Bad yet
 
@Ell No spoilers.
 
Breaking Bartek
 
@LucDanton There's a guy called Saul in it
 
Is it better to call him?
The end.
 
Ell
@LucDanton Spoiler: It's awesome!
 
9:57 AM
> raison d’puppy
excellent.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's a terrible article.
@Puppy The Puppies in that story are the bad guys.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit Yeah I love how it completely disregards any considerations for basic physics laws.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know, but that's still a great phrase.
 
morning
 
9:58 AM
@Cicada How so?
Oh, wait... wtf
 
17 mins ago, by sehe
@rightfold you suck :)
@LightningRacisinObrit lol
 
Lol
 
> Senior Game Engine Developer
uh oh
 
Who?
 
an offer.
In Hamburg, apparently
are citizens of Hamburg called Hamburgers?
 
10:02 AM
Yes.
 
Hamburgian Dance #5
 
How was that thing that could be used to minimize testcases for compiler problems called?
 
Ell
@Puppy raisin d'puppy: i.imgur.com/9C52A2j.png
 
IRTA thousands of people, including Angela Merkel, died in a plane crash
 
10:02 AM
and, more importantly, is there a city called Cheeseburg
 
not sure why
 
@Griwes creduce
 
thanks
 
and chicken from hamburg are called chicken hamburger?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Offer, interview appointment or reach-out from recruiter?
@chmod711telkitty hamburger chicken
 
user1804599
10:04 AM
I hope Python has an API to resolve names given an AST.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit I find the use of "dead" in the headline jarring anyways (victims, deceased, casualties, ...)
 
Ell
I gotta go work again, ping me if you set factorio up!
 
user1804599
But it's probably coupled with the bytecode generation.
 
@Cinch in D flat major
 
10:06 AM
gaah no more flat scales
 
what.
 
I had so many problems in transitioning to E♭ yesterday (on my lesson)
it's weird on guitar
 
Okay. The way I remember it's all relative. Unless you use the open strings (that's the cause of course).
 
@EtiennedeMartel That really is a bad article. Slate's "words correspondent" is writing poor opinion articles, it seems.
 
@sehe yeah, with E you can use every open string, with E♭ you can't use any of them.
 
10:09 AM
@Cicada I think I finished a basic implementation of that with just names (no versions) but it feels too simple so iunno how to feel about it.
 
also we were doing a pretty annoying exercise with my teacher today, which is pretty vital nonetheless, that is switching scales while staying in position
my brain twists the other way every time I try to do that
 
@LightningRacisinObrit new avatar mayhaps?
 
@LightningRacisinObrit chick must be freezing
 
@Rapptz Oh, that's great! There's a lot of testing to do even for that "simple" thing to be robust.
 
@BartekBanachewicz g fits. And d.
 
10:11 AM
yeah probably
 
@sehe Nice try
 
@sehe waait
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's D with capo on fret 1. :D
 
Cheater
 
@Griwes pff
@sehe well I suck.
 
10:12 AM
:D
 
in my defence I never said I can play guitar
 
Omg people took my bait "Mutices are implemented using sleep" seriously. A great way to end the week.
 
@Griwes have you seen those chord capos, btw?
I don't have/use capos, but those things look pretty interesting (mostly because Floyd Rose guitars don't like having their strings pressed)
 
@Cicada Once we find out what mutices are, we may corroborate the claim :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz "chord capos"?
 
10:14 AM
@Griwes Basically, instant scordatura
 
@Griwes a plate with some rubber spots that span more than one fret
effectively changing your tuning
 
capos change the tuning by definition :)
 
grr. yeah
 
Remember you're in the lounge
 
10:15 AM
buy a 7 string problem solved
you can play everything on a 7 string
 
Erm. You're lacking the chromatic pedals.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh. No, haven't seen anything like that.
 
@AlexM. I'm more worried about the goldfish
 
@sehe what's a chromatic pedal? o.O
 
10:18 AM
a pedal that tunes chromatically
 
I wonder if quicksort will ever be renamed to not so quick sort when more algorithms that prove to be faster get created
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's like saying you can play anything on a diatonic harmonica (you can; it's just pretty hard)
 
@AlexM. No, we'll just get veryquicksort and extraquicksort and hyperquicksort
 
@AlexM. nope. because they're not faster, they're just more applicable to special cases...
 
quickestquicksortforreal
 
10:19 AM
@AlexM. I think partially it also refers to the simplicity of the algorithm
 
@AlexM. quicksort was invented by Tony Quicksort; it has nothing to do with being quick of course
7
 
Quicky sort
 
@sehe do they work like glissando or what?
or is it just for "periodic retuning"
 
@BartekBanachewicz they tune chromatically...
 
some guitars have a "snap" that tunes top string E->D
 
10:21 AM
@ScarletAmaranth lol
 
#define DRIVER_VERSION "R2.2.0"        /**< Unique string describing the version of this Control Driver */
#define DRIVER_VERSION_STRING_LEN 16   /**< String length (i.e., not including NULL terminator) of DRIVER_VERSION string */
Good job, guys.
 
Its good that the programmer explained those macros. Capital letters and underscores are scary
 
I don't think that length is correct
 
@LightningRacisinObrit What's wrong with (sizeof(DRIVER_VERSION) - 1)?
 
@Rapptz Beats me mate
 
10:27 AM
How is passing incomplete (in C++-speak) arguments supposed to be achieved?
Think things like VLAs etc.
 
@Rapptz how come you are on like 24 x 7?
 
Oct 15 '14 at 11:11, by Rapptz
I don't sleep!
 
TIL I am qualified to drive 17-ton harvester
 
because weight restrictions don't apply to slow-moving vehicles
 
10:30 AM
man I have so many random science papers and theses on my hard drive
 
@BartekBanachewicz drive a tank
 
Never mind I failed to notice the link to the RFC‌​, which does the explaining.
 
I see the title and get excited and then download em, but I never read em and apply any of it to a program
High-Quality Cartographic Roads on High-Resolution DEMs, BMW Forschung und Technik BmgH
man I wanna work for BMW
 
Dang I think post-1.0 Rust is getting me excited.
 
rip
 
10:34 AM
Heaps fill me with dread
 
@Rapptz you is the cat!
 
@Rapptz That's ok in C99?
 
@AlexM. in the UK they are road legal, with some slight modifications ofc
like not having metal tread eating up the roads... or a cannon
@LucDanton Rust is nice, but, for me at least, needs more libs to be made for it as I'm too lazy to do it myself :P
 
@LightningRacisinObrit Yeah
 
cool thx
gonna raise bug upstream with a patch
 
10:39 AM
didnt some dude drive a tank dressed as the stig to beg the bbc not to cancel top gear
 
looks a bit cocky but someone needs to tell 'em they have buffer overruns
@Prismatic yes
@thecoshman lol
 
whatever happened to that fiasco... is top gear ded forever?
 
RIP yes
LRiO was devastated
no other way to find hot Romanian chicks that herd cows
 
@thecoshman As long as you get to keep the co-axial MG and the turret-mounted rocket launcher that seems fair.
 
The three of them should leave the BBC and start a new show
 
10:42 AM
@thecoshman I meant the language proper.
 
@AlexM. a typical tank can go more than 25 I think
 
What are those anti-infantry proximity defences called, too?
 
@LightningRacisinObrit if it's any consolation, you wouldn't be able to take the smell anyway :(
herding animals is a stinky business especially if sheep are involved
 
@LucDanton you get to keep the guns, but they must be welded up rendering them nothing more than a paper weight.
 
10:49 AM
sheep cheese is the only cheese I cannot eat
because it stinks of sheep
SO DAMN BAD
 
lolwut sheep cheese
 
So... rumours going around that my work will try to go from a 40 hour week to a 42 hours week...
 
@thecoshman What, even the hull-mounted howitzer? That’s no fun!
 
@LightningRacisinObrit cheese out of milk from sheep
 
@thecoshman What so you'll have to work an extra 24 minutes per day?
 
10:50 AM
@LucDanton if it's a gun, it can't be a gun any more :P
 
So we keep the rockets, got it.
 
Has it ever occurred to you guys that we, as human bodies, are just functions?
 
though this applies only to fresh sheep cheese
 
food goes in poop comes out
 
Functions with side effects
 
10:51 AM
this derivative is godlike
Brânză de burduf is a salty type of cheese, with sheep's-milk cheese, has a strong flavour and slightly soft in texture. To obtain it, sweet caş is cut into small pieces, salted and then hand-mixed in a large wooden bowl. The mixture is then placed in a sheep’s stomach, or into a sheep’s skin that has been carefully cleaned and sawed on the edges, or in a tube made of pine bark. The cheese can be consumed even if kept for a long time in a sheep’s stomach or in a sheep’s skin. If kept in pine bark, the cheese gets a specific pine resin flavour. The cheese is specific to southeastern Transylvania...
 
ofc I'm sure you can get licences for this stuff... but I think it would be hard for even a farmer to get away with high calibre ordinance :P
 
Poop Body(Food f)
 
@BartekBanachewicz dingbat, that's the bottom E, because it is lower than the high E (yes I know when you hold it the bass E is physically higher, but I don't mean that high)
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked crazy ghents (NSFW)
 
10:54 AM
wait wtf
 
@thecoshman your high
 
why is that C++ gamedev paper on /r/rust?
 
I think there should be a rule stating that people add the reason something's nsfw
 
@BartekBanachewicz you're permitted to. That's not the same as qualified
 
like NSFW-porn
 
or NSFW - violence
because I wouldn't open a link of someone mauled to death at work
 
@BartekBanachewicz only 36m above sea level... and know that I know that, I am worried :s
 
but I'd open one with naked women
different workplaces and all that
 
user1804599
@AlexM. I think there should a rule that if something is NSFW you should be working instead of chatting.
 
you don't want to make it effort for people to tag nsfw
 
10:56 AM
@rightfold lol
I'll remember you rightfold
 
it's a general warning that this is content that most people would not want to opening around work
 

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