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5:00 AM
sounds ok
 
I finished.
Good night everyone.
 
Night
 
boredom
 
Start working on cpack
 
implying
 
5:12 AM
not implying anything at all
make a collaborative something where we can input ideas etc
 
I have a cURL wrapper for HTTP(S) requests.
could probably use that
for the web thingies
 
Right. But we need a place to derpstorm stuff
 
nothing substantial atm to have a markdown so I guess tossing ideas might be the best thing to do
like e.g. what's an example of a good package manager and a bad one
 
@Rapptz This exactly. But you want to do it here?
 
at least until there's enough stuff to warrant a file
 
5:16 AM
Rapptz-so-file-saving
 
gotta save those virtual trees
 
Alright so first the package manager must be able to install from a central repo à la npm and friends, and from any git repo.
Next, the dependencies must not be recursively cloned à la npm because it's retarded (and kills a lot of virtual trees)
 
1 message moved to bin
 
> incompetent ones will come up with invalid reasons.
lol
 
lmao
dependencies seem hard
 
5:19 AM
let's keep the stuff simple at first ok?
 
e.g. I need version >= X of Y but I have X - 1 or whatever.
Yeah I know.
 
let's start without versioning and progressively ENHANCE from there
 
Your recursive clone is what summoned this idea though.
Probably why it's done like that
seems like the easiest solution albeit pretty terrible in terms of space
 
No the problem still exists without versions
They still create a full dependency tree
Instead of "flattening" everything
 
interesting
The package manager must be able to upgrade and delete packages.
 
5:21 AM
They could just clone all deps in the same folder, and then symlink from each module to that folder
Or something
 
I know this seems pretty obvious but pip doesn't let you upgrade every package.
 
It must use a sane configuration format
 
XML obv
 
1 user moved to bin
 
I vote JSON.
 
5:23 AM
Anything that is tree-like, readable and not CMake-ish is fine
 
user3010322
I vote {None}.
 
user3010322
You should make a C++ interface to build and write these things, people can write whatever format they like on top of it to make it go.
 
user3010322
(And then we can ship a canonical one. The canonical one should probably be JSON.)
 
The package manager should be as thin as possible, I don't want to spend hours learning how it work
Minimal amount of brainpower required for learning and using
Also GOOD INTEGRATION WITH GIT
 
cpack {install,upgrade,remove} package?
 
user3010322
5:26 AM
Also, also.
 
user3010322
MUST BE A STANDALONE EXECUTABLE RRARGHRAGHRRARGH.
 
user3010322
If I haveto install Java/Python/SometOtherThing, NOPENOPENOPENOPE.
 
pretty much impossible to not depend on some DLLs
 
add in cpack { list, check/fix/repairthebrokenstuffidid }
Yeah as standalone as possible
Statically link as much as possible
Ideally drop-in
 
user3010322
USB-stickable!
 
5:27 AM
static linking stdlib would be a pain license wise on libstdc++ at least
 
Then don't link that one, you get the idea
 
user3010322
I don't think DLLs are problems. Just... not having to install it formally as a requirement.
 
Just minimize deploy-time dependencies
 
Must work on all major operating systems.
*nix, Windows, OS X etc
 
right
Starting with what we have at hand for convenience
Also no targeting retarded compilers, but not targeting bleeding edge either
Something decently recent with good penetration
Also supplant biicode
Seems like a good start, what are we forgetting
 
5:32 AM
We currently have 7 things.
Actually 8.
virtual tree: killed
 
seems like a reasonable set of features to start with
 
fairly high level :v
 
that's what derpstorming is for
 
Might as well set the low bar.
what's the oldest compiler of the major 4 that's sane to support?
 
VS2013 on Windows because lol, gcc 4.9 and equivalent clang
 
5:37 AM
4.9 is too new-ish no?
ideally you should be able to specify the minimum compiler version and what not
 
I forgot what 4.8 does not support actually but I think it's mostly fine
4.9 almost 1 year old now I think
 
4.7 is when C++11 support became pretty decent (read: better than VS2013)
 
user3010322
4.9, VS 2015 (because fuck buggyadics and other shit), and clang {whatever}.
 
Yeah VS2013 is a real pain for lots of things
VS2013: Apply ICE to burnt area.
But it's irrealist to support VS2015
Might as well compile with mingw
 
well
here's some more brainstorming
you do cpack install boost
what's the expected behaviour there?
 
5:42 AM
Oh yeah forgot that
Must be very boost friendly
eg cpack install boost/range
or something
 
are you all legit making a c++ package thing
 
No just entertaining Rapptz
 
yeah we're having fun
 
We can't let the biicancer take too much importance
cpack is the chemotherapy it deserves
 
lel
 
user3010322
5:44 AM
I don't really mind having a low-high g++/clang++ version because they're easy to upgrade and there's really no reason not to upgrade (except some dumb old-person reason or somebody wrote bad code or C++03 codebases).
 
@Cicada With GitHub(R)(C)(TM) support you could do cpack install boostorg/range
 
user3010322
low-high g++/clang++ versions don't matter because their C++11 support ins't shit.
 
@Rapptz But it won't be compatible with cpack, right?
 
nope
 
user3010322
I say we don't bother letting cpack be built from source without VS 2015 otherwise you're going to be making tons of compromises.
 
5:45 AM
I think we should add an option for deps to be managed out-of-repo, to support boost easily, for example
So you can do cpack install boost/range and behind the scenes it knows where to get that + its deps. Somehow.
BUT
For the moment let's make something dead simple
Aka a repo that depends on a few others, the end.
Alright?
 
will your package manager have a DSL
 
pls no
 
no
 
user3010322
Gods no.
 
So what lang will the scripts be in?
 
5:48 AM
what scripts
it's just config
 
nvm for some reason I had thought you were making a build system for a second
 
lol
 
user3010322
If anything, repos who want to help us out and stuff should write a .cpack in their repo and we cna pull that and MAYBE it'll have some extra information for us to use.
 
not sure what's more insane
package manager for C++ or a build system for C++
I'd say they're pretty tied
maybe the latter is worse
 
Can add support for build system later
But I'd rather have something simple at first
 
5:50 AM
alright assuming the configuration is in JSON
let's make an example config?
see how it looks
 
Let's not care about versions first alright?
 
alright
 
I know it may sound stupid
 
user3010322
{
"name": "boost/range",
"deps": [],
}
 
user3010322
S'all I got. .-.
 
5:51 AM
it's awful
not even valid JSON
 
lol
 
1/10 for effort
 
missin' dat comma
 
user3010322
Whatever, commas are for squares.
 
still wrong
now you have an extra comma
 
5:52 AM
It's allowed
 
lame
 
user3010322
It should allow for that.
 
user3010322
No, awesome.
 
It'll allow for extra commas but no comments? Fuckin' LAME
 
user3010322
It makes generating JSON not a fucking nightmare.
 
5:53 AM
Hm.
I wonder if my JSON parser can handle extra commas
I want to say I tested for it but I forget
it does
alright
 
user3010322
I don't know what else would go in the json.
 
user3010322
Source?
 
user3010322
As in, source url?
 
No I think name+deps is the minimal viable contents
 
user3010322
With source url being optional?
 
5:56 AM
yeah without anything special like versioning
 
user3010322
verison and source can be optional I guess.
 
I think source URL should be there though
but probably not
since it violates DRY I think
 
I think it shouldn't go
 
user3010322
Well, there's only so many ways to automatically find out what/where "boost" should come from?
 
Package does not need to know where it is
Only where the others are
 
5:58 AM
so atm just name and dependencies
 
Right
 
user3010322
What should deps be filled with?
 
user3010322
Just more names?
 
yes
no versions atm
 
Yes. Can be either a simple name, in which case cpack looks in the central repo, or a git
 
5:59 AM
should be the same syntax as cpack install <package-name>
for consistency
 
user3010322
So we'd be maintaining a big list of names for cpack, then?
 
Yes
 
user3010322
Got it.
 
Look at how sublime package manager works for example, or npm
 
user3010322
JSON should be nested.
 
6:00 AM
nested?
 
user3010322
Like
 
there should be description too
maybe a license so people can sort through those
 
Not technically core for it to work at first
 
yeah ik
 
But definitely a good thing to add
 
6:03 AM
thinking about cpack search
 
Oh good idea yes
 
user3010322
{
     "name":"Arf",
     "description":"Woof, mother fucker",
     "license":"MIT",
     "packages": [
          { "version": "1", "source":"http://www.arf.com/repo" },
          { "version": "2", "source":"http://www.arf.com/repo/shiny" }
     ],
}
 
user3010322
I don't even know if that's balance or not...
 
you're such a dirty tab user and it shows
 
lol
 
6:05 AM
banishes ThePhD
 
user3010322
How am I a dirty tab user? D:
 
user3010322
I was using spaces for that!
 
you're terrible at indenting
 
user3010322
@Rapptz There, happy now? D:
 
I don't like it still
that's ugly JSON
 
user3010322
6:06 AM
Shrug
 
list of objects == dropped
sometimes
if it gets complicated then I'm cool with it
anyway
so just name/dependencies for the core idea?
 
Yep
When we get cpack install repoA that successfully clones repoA and a few deps then we can build up
 
user3010322
Just make sure any source information is nested.
 
user3010322
In a list of something.
 
user3010322
So it's not back-breaking painful to consider a list of versioned sources.
 
6:08 AM
well
In terms of libraries I've made
I have a JSON parser, a libcurl wrapper and a command line parsing utility
 
user3010322
... Huh, licenses might change between versions...
 
So... I just got a benchmark from someone running a 20-core Haswell server @ 2.3 GHz. It ran slower than my 8-core Haswell @ 4.0 GHz.
I think it has something to do with the memory and the AVX-throttling on Haswell Xeons.
 
Let the following packages be: root: [A, B, C]; A: [], B: [D, E]; C: [E]; D: []; E: []
Target: cpack install root successfully pulls A, B, C, D, E
No duplicates of E are made
The end
 
makes sense
 
That's really the most minimal graph I can think of that seems like it covers most use cases
 
6:13 AM
where should these things be installed though?
 
There should be a folder reserved for deps
 
you mean locally?
 
Each package should depend on deps in that folder, relative to the root of that package
Yeah locally
 
I was thinking globally
 
Globally as in system wide?
 
6:14 AM
yeah or user wide
situations a bit easy on Linux
 
user3010322
That's a nightmare waiting to happen because then people's projects would have to adopt the cpack scheme and adjust their includes for it.
 
Yeah that can work too. I think that's an extension though because typically you want each package to be self-contained, no?
 
user3010322
Since we're not managing the build system yet that's... a little bit beyond the scope.
 
well cpack install would be local by default
and you could specify --global to make it globally?
 
@ThePhD That's the thing. For it to gain traction we need to provide a temporary band aid
 
6:16 AM
@ThePhD cpack install --to=<directory> <package>
 
Let's just do the very basic thing defined above pls
 
ikr
feature creep already
 
user3010322
@Rapptz That too! --global is just a shortcut for --to=<some_system_specific_global_we_decide_on>
 
That's already quite a task but it's solvable and the scope is well defined
 
user3010322
Locally is the easiest.
 
user3010322
6:17 AM
e.g., in the current directory, in the target folder (deps at first).
 
you're right
--to seems to be a pretty core thing to include
or whatever the name should be
 
user3010322
--into
 
--bikeshed
 
anyway graphs
how are we gonna start on that
 
user3010322
@Cicada --Wbikestorm --Wbrainshed
 
6:19 AM
@Cicada I do I pronounce your nickname? like sikada? sisada or ?
 
sheekada
 
good morning, btw
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh well I'm relieved, finally read the 'on' in that sentence :\
 
user3010322
@Rapptz Create a tree of dependencies, remove duplicates, pull leaves first, then work up each level of the tree?
 
@Cicada chee-kah-dah
How do you say Xion?
 
6:21 AM
Pee-on
Cinch please change your avatar
 
I should change AV but don't know what to pick
@ThePhD Depth first traversal
 
Can't sleep
0/10
 
Join the cpackeshed
 
0
Q: invalid conversion from 'uint8_t* {aka unsigned char*}' to 'const char*' [-fpermissive]

Saim SaimI am writing code in C for STM32 with gcc compiler, void OSD0_TEXT ( uint8_t *TEXT) { ..... TxBurst(0x400, strlen(TEXT), TEXT); ..... } main{ OSD0_TEXT("STAY FOLISH"); }

 
CPack is CMake's install thingy
Or maybe packaging thingy
 
6:31 AM
rip
 
Also lol I see you're focusing on important things like 'omg no dependencies' and what textual metadata should be included
 
ikr
 
For dependency solving you want SAT
Or something similar
 
a what
 
In computer science, the Boolean Satisfiability Problem (sometimes called Propositional Satisfiability Problem and abbreviated as SATISFIABILITY or SAT) is the problem of determining if there exists an interpretation that satisfies a given Boolean formula. In other words, it asks whether the variables of a given Boolean formula can be consistently replaced by the values TRUE or FALSE in such a way that the formula evaluates to TRUE. If this is the case, the formula is called satisfiable. On the other hand, if no such assignment exists, the function expressed by the formula is identically FALSE...
 
6:33 AM
yeah I was thinking of something like that
 
Ad hoc solving algos just fail in various funny corner cases and make everyone angry
SAT is complete afaik
 
@CatPlusPlus rip
Did you update the gist @Rapptz?
 
nope
 
I'm drinking whole fat milk I can feel the kilos settling in
 
lol
 
user3010322
6:36 AM
@CatPlusPlus What would you want out of a package manager?
 
Soon you'll be as fat as your mom
 
@CatPlusPlus It can't be THAT soon
 
@CatPlusPlus No external depencies.
Anyway TIL about CPack
 
Every dependency is external bub
 
your mom's a dependency
 
6:38 AM
Oh well
 
Also there's a reason why npm completely isolates dependencies
 
Because it sucks?
I see no reason to have a full clone of the tree
 
No, because it's a hard problem
 
Is it
 
People are bad at programming and you need to have provisions for multiple versions of the same thing coexisting
 
6:39 AM
The second part does not justify duplicating everything
 
You could hardlink common shit but in the end, it's easier and less error-prone to just have it separate
 
How many shrimps do you have to eat before you make your skin turn pink?
@CatPlusPlus I don't disagree with that.
I'm just saying it's a waste of time and space
When the dependency tree is very redundant (as is with many JS packages), you end up cloning the same thing maaaany times over
 
Clones are cached
 
Then the work is already done, no?
 
Anyway Python's virtualenv, rubby's bundler/rvm, cabal's sandbox, etc do p much the same thing more or less differently
Copying the thing avoids dealing with runtime path issues
You have a self-contained thing
It's not the best system, but it's not terrible either
 
6:43 AM
I'm not convinced ._.
How is it better than a symlink
 
I think I blew my leg off with c++ again. Getting real tired of this shit
 
Someone pls suggest an avatar
 
dont do cplus
 
no
 
6:45 AM
@Cicada well, you got your old name back...
 
@Cicada anything that looks sexual in the thumbnail will work
 
Its so easy to forget that when you make something a template you can't erase the type and recover it elsewhere
 
@ThePhD Dependencies are what's important
 
@sehe lol
 
loved that one (not the pink/purple(?) one)
 
6:45 AM
A package manager should just be able to resolve a graph and pull that graph, the end
 
@Cicada how about a car, everyone has an animal, some lame anime stuff or the default patterns
 
Things like repos or metadata or CLI are either obvious or secondary
 
no one has a car
 
@sehe Right. The first one where I hold my head with my hand?
 
@Pris you have a cdr
@Cicada I dunno. You kept them?
Later on you had the creepy one with "bf" in the background, if I recall.
Good times
 
6:47 AM
How come you remember all that
 
You had a girl avatar that was cuter than all of LRiO's girl avatars.
 
@Pris You can, what bullshit is this (of course, you mean it requires effort, is painful and refutes the idea of templating in some sense?)
 
@Rapptz You mean a picture of me
 
lel
 
@sehe I see what you did there! :D
 
6:48 AM
@Cicada I'm sure that's rhetorical...
 
Jan 6 '12 at 12:25, by sehe
Allthough this looks a bit like a cute little girl wielding powerful... tools:
 
@Cicada why not the cicada again?
... isn't it meant to be a dog thing to run to the door when post comes? because my cat does it :\
 
I mean like, I didn't think of this obvious problem in my design. I could create a base class and save the type and then dynamic cast it later but thats nasty and not extensible.

I'm trying to batch geometry in OpenGL. There are buffers templated on the type of vertex. You can only batch buffers with vertex types that are alike. The 'thing' that does the batching can't know about all the vertex types in advance. I don't know what a nice way to do this is
lol
 
Someone update the gist pls
 
@Pris sounds like a bad design to me
@Cicada the gist of it is 'wtf'?
 
6:56 AM
@Pris Uh map<some_tag, vector<vertex>> maybe
The fuck you need templates or class hierarchies for
 
@thecoshman I am bad design incarnate
 
You wouldn't need dynamic casts anyway
Or you know just have your vertex_container_whatever<whatever> and something like that_type<vertex_a> as; that_type<vertex_b> bs; as.render(); bs.render(); dunno what's the issue
 
vertex isn't a single class. Its a struct with a varying number of fields
 
What for
 
May 21 '12 at 5:31, by Tony The Lion
oh sex
 
6:58 AM
What do you need beside coords, texcoords and colour
And then see second paragraph anyway, still no need for anything fancy
 
@Cicada with what
 
the things
 

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