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Ven
10:00 AM
there weren't that many that interested me tbh
 
(Sorry for the sound quality of the keynote; we noticed something's fucked up after Sean started speaking and couldn't fix it during recording due to our cameras being utter shit. :P)
 
How can you guys keep watching C++ videos after getting exposed to other languages
 
I feel like puking even just starting one
 
lol
 
10:01 AM
Not even kidding, I actually feel nausea
 
You're watching the wrong ones, then :D
 
@Ven altough I have to say your response was spot on - "he said bad things about my language, better insult his alleged favorite language, then bring up something bad about him as a followup". You'd do great in the presidential debates.
 
Ven
You're talking about readability without admitting to your favorite toy's deficiencies
 
@Ven fuck haskell
seriously
 
Ven
"It's the worst of the worst! If everything else is perfect, at least. Otherwise it's pretty okay"
 
10:02 AM
That reminds me, I was supposed to watch the second part of the lockfree talk (...one of my talks got scheduled at the same time as Tony's; sadness).
 
do I need to say that haskell is godawful and terrible before you stop bringing this idiotic argument as a response to everything
 
Haskell has nothing to do with anything here, you're just bringing it up because 2 years ago I said I like it
 
Ven
I used it once, and that's a response to everything?
 
it's pathetic
 
Ven
10:03 AM
oh yes
that's the only time you endorsed haskell
2 years ago
please tell me more about you never ever talked about it again.
 
that's not the point
 
Ven
you're a twelve y.o. child that's been disturbed trying to "put the shapes in the thingie" and now you're angry at everything
Classic bartek
 
you're going after it because you know I like it, not because it's relevant to the discussion
@Ven oh well it's down to regular insults now?
nevermind then
 
it was actually relevant to the discussion
 
Ven
it's relevant to the discussion because you don't consider both sides of the equation
 
10:04 AM
unreadable/operators thingy
 
Ven
stop pretending you're living in a perfect world and everything is a trade-off from that.
 
@Bartek remember, you still owe me that six-pack for helping you with Haskell (same Haskell you apparently never liked), even when we plonked each other (though I'm not sure if you plonked me, so... vOv)
 
@Griwes I thought it was you who plonked me after.. wait
what was it this time
oh right "perfect/ideal code"
 
Ven
you've never provided any argument except for your "I have Perl PTSD" and "stop hurting my feelings" and "I'm going to punch you in the face if you write Perl"
 
@Ven I never did in this context. I never brought readability in this discussion. I didn't talk about operators.
 
Ven
10:06 AM
but hey I guess physical threats are okay, while "regular insults" are not.
 
@Ven Sure I didn't.
 
Ven
whatever those are
 
It was a mindless and a pointless rant
and you responded with "but haskell operators are unreadable"
projecting much?
See you should've called out the bullshit and lack of arguments then
but what you did was precisely what I said; attacking haskell just to attack me
 
Ven
it wasn't a "mindless and pointless rant", it was a rant wherein you proceeded to insult everyone who used Perl 5/6, who liked code golf, who you didn't like, where you threatened to punch people
 
projecting what?
 
10:07 AM
@Shoe perl unreadability
 
Ven
nah I'm just telling you you don't realize the arguments you've used against Perl (don't pretend it's the first time you've ranted against it) are stupid considering your (then-registered) favorite toy
 
I didn't mention readability, he brought it up himself
I didn't need to mention readability for it to be brought up
that's my point
@Ven nah, stop being so huff-puff about it, I was pretty precise about what I said
 
Is Bartek upset because you responded to his Perl rant with a Haskell rant instead of simply telling him his rant was bullshit?
 
Ven
yeah you're always precise
 
10:09 AM
I'm not really upset though
 
You implicitly brought up readability
 
Ven
I'm just showing how easy it is to go for bullshit rants like your Perl one
 
also @Shoe for you I have a separate thread
24 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Shoe I'd like to see you come up with a name for every single one of out dozens there that would significantly improve readability and self-documenting.
 
Ven
since you're like "omg i hate askool leave me and my feelings alone"
 
10:10 AM
@Ven But yours wasn't mindless, you dumbass. You actually thought about it. That doesn't count.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe, probably
 
Well the thing is I was actually forced to write Perl at work
it did leave a mark
that part was true
 
@Ven yeah stop being clever you idiot
 
so was the PTSD part that you TRIGGER every time you mention perl
 
Ven
the part that's wrong is that you believe I care about your language preferences
 
10:12 AM
that's not about it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, the context is code golf and Perl there is used because, being full of symbols and operators makes code shorter by making it unreadable. And I think with rightfold we are all witnesses of that here.
 
Ven
just don't follow up the discussion when I just mention Perl 6 in the context of Rosetta Code
like, idk, any reasonable adult
 
BTW Perl 6 is shit
vOv whatever
 
Ven
there, you're name-calling a language that I supposedly like, just to piss me off!
You're amazing at blaming people for things you do all the time :-).
 
@Shoe meh fuck code golf
 
@BartekBanachewicz That seems like part of some haskell centered thread
 
Ven
What you dislike in Perl is Perl.
 
@Ven I don't think you care enough about liking languages to be pissed off by that
 
Ven
correct. but you blamed me for doing that with Haskell, so why are you doing it here?
 
Well, if I didn't think you'd be pissed off, the goal must've been different, hm?
 
10:15 AM
@BartekBanachewicz But at least you tried really hard.
 
Ven
explain to us what was your supposed almighty goal, then?
 
Jun 24 '15 at 8:08, by Bartek Banachewicz
Also, you're completely misrepresenting the "beauty of haskell", but I presume it's just because you know Perl but don't know Haskell. Beauty of it doesn't lie in clever one-liners or a lot of symbols.
You said it bro.
Wait, you said that?
 
but that's true.
Haskell isn't about symbols at all
people who make it all about symbols and operators clearly have no clue
that's why this happened
 
Then why are you defending operators
 
6 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
24 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Shoe I'd like to see you come up with a name for every single one of out dozens there that would significantly improve readability and self-documenting.
 
10:17 AM
Look, naming is hard but just throwing a bunch of random symbols is just lazy
 
@Shoe They're not random.
 
Yeah, I know
And I would prolly come up with names for that, yes. If I had some time or any care whatsoever for the library
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz did you really let go of haskell hate and all btw?
 
Also some of those operators seem like the effect of a failure in making type classes or something equivalent
(#%%=) = A version of (%%=) that works on ALens.
(#%%~) = A version of (%%~) that works on ALens.
etc.
 
@Ven you mean hate or Hate
 
Ven
10:24 AM
Haskell and Hate*
 
@Shoe excuse me?
 
I do excuse you, no need to worry
You are forgiven
 
can you show me a simple example of that? Simpler than what you showed, just unify += and +~?
I am pretty sure Edward will also want to know about that
 
@Ell Because I'm a scrub, that's why. :B
 
@BartekBanachewicz What's wrong with what I showed there?
 
10:26 AM
@Shoe Could use either, I just think that my example is simpler and still illustrates your point, no?
or wait, sorry
you meant generalizing #%%= and %%=
 
@Shoe Probably bumping against the walls of the language.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah
A typeclass doesn't seem possible there
They seem to have completely different signatures
 
@Ven nobody used Hate and I kinda lost patience at some point
 
Ven
you did a rightfold
 
@Ven well I did leave it for a while before and came back
 
Ven
10:28 AM
ah
a good rightfold would have started it all over again.
 
same with Turnip
@Ven Oh no it's not that, I think it's kinda nice in the current form. There were actually two main factors this time
the first one was the UI - it's just a super hard problem I needed to make a game but didn't really want to solve
the second one was how hard it was to get dynamic behaviours in a game
I was planning to make an RTS, but not having scripted units and behaviours would limit my experimentation a lot
OTOH, having them scripted would reduce the benefits of strict type use I had for them
so it was really a case of both wanting to have the cake and to eat it
 
> A guy paid me $10 for $9.96 pizza. I told him I'd have to run to my car to get some pennies, he said "I'll wait."
I'd do that too
 
Fuck *.9* prices
 
literally Hitler
 
10:31 AM
You screwing with my brain, I'm screwing with your pennies
 
@Shoe Can you come up with just a name for (#%%=)?
 
I wonder if banning 0.01 and 0.02 coins will help
 
I'm curious what would your readable name for it be
 
@milleniumbug 0.95
still bad
 
manufacturers will have to make a trade-off between lowering to 0.95 and increasing to 1.0
 
10:32 AM
just ban coins
0.96 price is perfectly fine when you can pay with a CC
 
you can pay 0.96 with coins just fine
 
Ven
it's just to make you think "it's not 1€"
which is ew
 
@BartekBanachewicz what does it do?
 
makes line noise
 
> Modify the target of an ALens in the current state returning some extra information of type r or modify all targets of a Traversal in the current state, extracting extra information of type r and return a monoidal summary of the changes.
 
10:34 AM
wow incomprehensible
 
the first part is easy
%~ to %%~ is just returning some extra info
 
@BartekBanachewicz no idea what that means
 
%~ to %= is just state
 
@Shoe Well, then %%=, which is easier?
 
10:35 AM
"return a monoidal summary of the changes" gets the cake tho
@BartekBanachewicz definitely not %%=
 
@Shoe ?
you can't name it?
 
@BartekBanachewicz what's %~ and %%~ again?
@BartekBanachewicz yeah because I have no idea what it does
not because it's impossible to name
 
@Shoe %~ is over.
 
@Shoe (1,2) & _1 %~ (+1) == (2,2)
 
10:38 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes nice
@BartekBanachewicz ok and how does that relate to %%=?
 
Sweden in general is pushing towards getting rid of physical money.
(ugh)
 
@Shoe Well do you understand %=?
 
That's a bit weird.
 
What was the TV criminal series where the hero or heroine, I cannot remember, is in a coma and is living life as a cop in like 80s?
 
Ven
The fact twitch asks me for a reason everytime I /ignore someone is retarded
 
10:39 AM
It was probably originally UK series.
 
@BartekBanachewicz no idea what that does
 
@Shoe see (1,2) & in front? %= gets that with get.
 
Xeo
mapping through a lens on state
 
equivalent
 
@wilx I remember the commercial on that one
 
10:40 AM
flip execState (1,2) $ do
    _1 %= (+1)
 
lensMap
 
do is unnecessary here, I just wanted to illustrate
 
map
 
@Shoe wait so now one is called over, and one is map?
let's try with +~
 
dude, I don't care really
people have been designing APIs without operators since the dawn of time
 
10:41 AM
// stateless

(1,2) & _1 +~ 1 == (2,2)

// stateful

flip execState (1,2) $ do
    _1 += 1
@Shoe how would you rename += ?
 
+= is good enough as it is
people know what it means
 
well, why is += good enough, and %= not?
 
just like + and *
 
@Shoe people know what %= means as well
 
%= modulo-assignment
 
10:42 AM
BTW non programmers have no idea what += means
 
a %= b is also fine if it means a = a % b
 
oh okay I thought you have some actual arguments
 
I'm not against all operators of course
 
it's the same "I learned it that way so it must be that way" again
boring
 
I'm against overuse of operators
 
10:43 AM
Life on Mars! /cc @Shoe
 
where overuse is "specifically as much as I like, not more, not less"
 
Wait, I'm free from this discussion?
yay
 
yes
you're dismissed
 
I feel like getting naked
 
Xeo
Strip down and oil up, it's a moment to be celebrated!
Whoever gets that reference gets a clap from me.
 
Ven
10:45 AM
are there tentacles involved
 
Xeo
no
 
I wonder if people think that haskellers actually use those super complex lens operators all the time though
like, if they actually think that
The most complex one I've ever used in my life was <<%= I think
 
@Ven what kind of person do you think xeo is?? you are probably right ...
 
wait a second
Why does a += b exist again? Wouldn't it just be something like a %~ (+ b)?
slightly more readable I suppose
 
@Shoe yeah! (you understood it!)
it's just a shorthand
most of the operators are
 
Xeo
10:48 AM
not that shorthand tho
a %= (+ b)
 
@Shoe also = (a %= (+b))
 
Hello, please forgive me for throwing a request here. Is there by chance anyone who experienced the puzzling process of making a custom Chromium build working on Windows 10 ?
 
Xeo
... wat.
 
@Xeo I assume that was just a typo
 
@Frederik.L no
 
10:48 AM
modify a (+ b) :3 (or something)
 
@Shoe modify doesn't take a lens, silly
 
Xeo
That's all %= really is, except through a lens
 
dat modify though it's so pretty
look at all those letters
 
You can literally express all Lens operators with %~
 
:3
 
10:50 AM
@Shoe yes, but that's a trivial example
the point in having all those operators is that you can still be semantically on point in complicated contexts
 
nwp
@milleniumbug finland did that. Not sure if it helped.
 
@Shoe try writing <%= or <<%= with modify
 
@nwp interesting
 
@nwp And Sweden and Norway.
Sweden killed all the fractional coins.
The main reasoning is that their face value doesn't justify the manufacturing costs.
 
10:56 AM
btw @R.MartinhoFernandes you didn't respond to my mention of circuits.io
I got pretty hyped about it
... which probably isn't of much value since I hype up about everything -.-
 
@Telkitty milk? cockroaches are mammals now?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Haven't checked yet.
 
you should read the article
 
oh ok just confirming that you got it
hm I actually wonder how will they perform on this machine
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So did we.
 
10:59 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Have you tried Scala?
 

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