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11:01 AM
not really
like I did write something in it
but I don't really do anything on JVM so it's hardly of interest for me
 
@milleniumbug Ok thanks! Can you suggest me a place or chat room where I could get help with runtime crashes? Tried on chromium-discuss and superuser. Not sure if it would be relevant to SO though, may only be relevent to users who followed the painful process already.
 
@Frederik.L Stack Overflow
 
heh, I loaded someone's counter circuit on circuits.io and it doesn't work
oh this one does
nice
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz out of principal? :P
 
@Ell mm?
> void num3lcd2 () {
ow
yeah, there's 20 of such functions
 
Ell
11:14 AM
@BartekBanachewicz how come you don't do JVM stuff?
 
@Ell well, why would I?
 
Ell
Some of the languages are very cool
But I mean,
 
@Ell not denying that
 
Ell
You said you've never looked at Scala because you don't do JVM stuff
But why don't you do JVM stuff?
 
that's a good question
Why don't I do CLR stuff?
 
11:17 AM
I don't think it's that he's actively opposed to the JVM. He's just never done anything on it, as a coincidence.
 
Why don't I do Erlang stuff?
 
Xeo
Why don't you do useful stuff?
 
what do you mean by "useful"?
@Ell I think I'm nearly past caring what tool I use ideology-wise.
I mean, for hobby coding a lot of factors don't really matter
I can pick whatever I want that is out there
 
Ell
@ThePhD then why is JVM a reason not to try Scala?
 
Nowadays it happens to be mostly Node.js
 
Ell
11:20 AM
That's why I'm confused :P
 
I could just be reading it wrong, but it reads like "I haven't really worked with the JVM", rather than "Fuck the JVM."
 
correct
Using Scala pretty much implies using the JVM ecosystem
I don't do that, I don't know or use their tools or libraries
And I don't think that JVM ecosystem is particularly interesting for things I do
 
Ven
@Telkitty :P
 
frankly I'd like to get a better stack for embedded now
but I am not sure if any interesting langs are ready
Lua is too big for AVR, Terra doesn't support it, Rust is still not ready (well if robot is right that means LLVM isn't ready in general)
and C++ is sadness
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz there is no effort to do that though right
 
11:26 AM
@Ell Most of my machines don't even have java installed
 
Ell
When you use rust you don't see the llvm infrastructure
 
I also don't have an Idea license at home
and without a proper IDE I think those languages lose a lot
 
Ven
right.
IntelliJ makes a breeze of scala implicits, which are otherwise pretty hairy
 
Most of the languages I like incidentally can be written in notepad
 
Ell
I think you are incorrectly generalising across jvm languages
But meh
 
11:27 AM
@Ell I think it's true for Scala and especially Java
 
Ell
I agree it is with java
 
I am sure that there are some that can be written without IDE support, but I don't know them
 
Ell
But intellij is free and you can get eclim, etc.
 
Ven
you sure the scala plugin is free? I can't remember if it's in the community ed
 
@Ell is it?
 
Ven
11:29 AM
yeah there's a community edition
 
oh well
anyway you know there's loads of languages out there right
 
Ell
@Ven not sure
 
why pick scala specifically
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz yep
 
why not one of the dozens other langs
 
Ell
11:30 AM
Was just wondering if you had something against the JVM
 
Ven
you pick scala if you want slow compile-times
null
and compiler bugs
 
@Ell I don't really see the benefit
And JVM is slow as fuck to start up and weighs a ton
 
Ven
the JVM is very fast to start up
loading the 12mb of scala libs however..
 
Well, my haskell binaries routinely weigh around 10MB but I'm pretty sure they start up faster
still slower than javascript or Lua obviously
 
Ell
Idk about that
 
11:32 AM
@Ven Millibits?
 
Ven
@набиячлэвэли c'est ta bit qui est milli
@BartekBanachewicz GHC isn't renowned for its build times, and scala is far worse
 
I've heard that it's the only language that can compete with C++ in that regard
but yeah again fastest build is no build
 
Ven
well it has incremental config
 
dunno if JRebel works for scala
but eh it's all tainted with Java
 
Ven
would you say it's.. impure?
 
11:34 AM
just like F# is with C#'s .NET
@Ven badum-tss
heh "ALens" is literally "a lens"
eh sadness, circuits.io doesn't have the TWI expander
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's pretty much the reason I never use those simulator things. They very often only support enough to look nice in demos.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well it does have the shift registers though
apparently you can use one to hook up the LCD on 3pins
I went through basic arduino examples yesterday and they worked
was fun
 
Ell
I wonder how text handling works across character sets
Not sure if that is the right terminology
But let's say I want to compare some text encoded in gb2312 and some in utf-8
The gb2313 isn't a Unicode encoding so it wont map to Unicode codepoints
What happens then?
 
why are you working with gb2313 in the first place?
 
has anybody ever used qt for menus in a game?
 
Ell
11:48 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not, but considering using it
 
@ChemiCalChems that's a rather radical approach
@Ell ditto?
 
Ell
It has a very compact storage compared to utf-{8,16,32}
 
@Ell why is it important?
 
@BartekBanachewicz it was just an idea, not saying i was ever gonna apply it, but it's possible i will
because coding menus in sdl/sfml can be fucking hideous
 
@ChemiCalChems there are libraries for that
 
Ell
11:50 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Because I am currently storage limited
 
@BartekBanachewicz link please? might use them
 
@Ell what are you doing again?
 
Ell
This is work stuff
Localization
 
@ChemiCalChems google.com/?q=ui%20library%20for%20sfml
 
lol
oh, sfgui
cool
 
11:51 AM
@Ell I thought UTF-16 is pretty good for chinese characters
as in, most fit in two bytes
 
Ell
Its better, but not as good as GB2312
I think.
 
> and the two-byte codepoint of each character
@Ell if anything, it's horrendous to work with
There are two implementations of GB2312 which differ in few code points.
bytes	Implementation A	Implementation B
A1A4	U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT	U+30FB KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT
A1AA	U+2014 EM DASH	U+2015 HORIZONTAL BAR
Implementation A is compatible with GBK and GB18030, while Implementation B is not.
As of 2015, Microsoft .Net Framework is using Implementation A. iconv-1.14, php-5.6, ActivePerl-5.20, Java 1.7 and Python 3.4 are using Implementation B.[3] Ruby 2.2 is compatible with both Implementation A and Implementation B, it internally converts the conflictive characters to Implementation A.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz maybe the difference is only the BOM
But that still makes a difference
 
happy coding then
weird, I seem to recall that HD44780 had more than just 8 custom characters
 
Ell
I don't think I have the authority to make this decision
 
11:56 AM
I sure hope you don't
 
Ell
Why?
 
Conflicting encoding standards aren't what the world needs
it's a miracle we managed to put utf up in the first place
 
Ell
Actually explicitly using utf-16le means they will be equivalent
 
well then
 
@Ell er, yes, it will.
One of Unicode's big goals is to map all encodings in existence.
A "Unicode encoding" is one that encodes the whole Unicode character set, which is not a prerequisite for this.
 
Ell
12:00 PM
Right
So sum of codepoints that every encoding encodes is a subset of Unicode codepoints?
So the sum of codepoints that every encoding encodes is a subset of Unicode codepoints?
 
Zip, Zips or ZIP may refer to: Zipper or zip, a device for temporarily joining two edges of fabric together ZIP code, the USPS Zone Improvement Plan used in postal addresses in the United States == Computing == ZIP (file format), a data compression and archival file format zip, a command-line program from Info-ZIP Zip drive, a removable data storage format by Iomega Zone Information Protocol, implementation of an OSI model layer Convolution (computer science), also called "zip", an operation which converts a tuple of sequences into a sequence of tuples == Arts and entertainment == Zip, ...
 
@Ell This confuses me
 
wait, isn't the HD44780 clocked
how do you prevent races on it
I do remember working with it directly years ago
but I don't remember specifics :/
 
I should read the rules
getit
 
@Ell you can convert everything to a sequence of Unicode codepoints, but not necessarily back
 
12:02 PM
@milleniumbug modulo a few historical mistakes, yes, back.
Roundtripping is also one of Unicode's big goals.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think the storage is too small for compression
The largest storage for a string is 32 bytes
 
you're fighting entropy now
 
@milleniumbug this is one of the reasons some characters are seemingly duplicated in the UCS
 
Ell
I wonder which encodings Unicode doesn't cover
If there are any
 
12:05 PM
Custom ones?
 
@Ell the "MumboJumbo 9001" encoding I designed two seconds ago
 
Ell
I guess custom ones yeah
 
But in a way, it does, with the private use areas
The ConScript Unicode Registry is a volunteer project to coordinate the assignment of code points in the Unicode Private Use Area for the encoding of artificial scripts including those for constructed languages. It was founded by John Cowan and is maintained by him and Michael Everson but has not been updated in several years. It has no formal connection with the Unicode Consortium. The Under-ConScript Unicode Registry (UCSUR) is a clone of the CSUR that is acting as a holding area for new scripts until they can be added to the dormant CSUR. == Scripts == The CSUR and UCSUR include the following...
Basically, everything that is in the roadmap and already exists in some encoding would count as that.
Obvious examples would be any of the Tengwar or Klingon encodings in use.
Or the Apple logo
 
nwp
hmm, I had to look up operator precedence twice in the last 5 minutes. I think I have a slight case of cleverness.
also partially applying function arguments in C sucks
 
12:22 PM
so, this compiles fine, but not in the Arduino simulator
 
@nwp don't write C, even Linus doesn't write C
only a dialect of it
 
nwp
don't have much of a choice
 
I'm getting "template argument 2 is invalid" from the emulator compiler
suckage.
 
nwp
@milleniumbug is the dialect gnu-C or something fancy?
 
yep
note that this means function-local functions
 
12:23 PM
@milleniumbug I thought that was standard
oh well
hm okay so the compiler there apparently doesn't like enum-class types as template parameters
that's legal right?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I remember that stuff. Video games used it for icons for WiiMotes and XBox Controllers and buttons and shit.
 
I don't think they standaridized it.
 
lol
death penalty
 
www.bbc.com/news/technology-36912992
 
12:27 PM
4
A: std::get using enum class as template argument

R. Martinho FernandesYes, this was a bug in GCC 4.5. Scoped enums don't have implicit conversions to integral types.

 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Internet of Shit strikes again
 
but non-type template arguments don't need to be integral right
 
Getting more software into everyday items means getting more shittiness into it
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That sounds like it would be better off being connected to internet
 
@slaphappy no, getting more shitty software means getting moer shittiness
 
12:29 PM
@Shoe ?
 
adding monitoring to stuff, for example, isn't a problem as long as it's private enough
 
It was a server problem apparently.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes. But I'm fine with shitty photo sharing apps on your smartphone. Not with household items.
 
Yes, why would a server problem stop feeding millions of dogs around the world?
 
@slaphappy why, exactly?
 
12:30 PM
Each feeder should probably be independent
 
I mean, why agree on shitty software only in some places
 
@Shoe because it's cloud-enabled.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because of when they break
 
@slaphappy So the real problem is that they break
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, I'm arguing that that's not necessary
 
12:30 PM
not that they are software
the IoT hate is silly
 
Cloud-enabled is the technical term for "it won't work without the Internet, for no reason at all, and even with the Internet it probably won't work either"
 
what you should be hating is bad software, but as you said yourself you use bad software and don't mind it
@R.MartinhoFernandes for bad companies
 
it's entirely possible to make cloud-enabled devices that work w/o the internet connection
 
Lmao.
 
12:31 PM
Blah blah blah can't hear you over the "good companies" marketing.
 
Anyway, no reason any connected object should provide anything more than a set of controls to be used by another terminal
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's a ridiculous standpoint
 
Ell
Oh hey somebody did opentype math table for harfbuzz in april
 
things aren't perfect
 
12:32 PM
You misspelled realistic.
 
If that thing has enough stupid tech to connect to the internet it has enough RAM in it to store a fucking calendar for the whole year and tell itself to drop out some food.
 
I'm so glad the lounge is back
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's not the problem
The problem is that they're not up to par.
 
nwp
@milleniumbug cool, but the code needs to compile on VS, so I'm screwed
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes right I forgot that internet harassment is a thing that is there and we shouldn't try to fix the problem
oh maybe that was IoT problems actually
 
12:32 PM
@nwp rip C89
 
who knows
 
How's that related.
 
apparently I might be able to work from home 1 or 2 days a week.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes actually that might be a bit stretching it
I am not sure if my analogy holds
point being, IoT isn't bad, bad IoT is bad
just because there's a lot of companies trying to get into a new market with experimental products doesn't mean the ideas are bad
a lot of people equate singled out failures as a proof that this part of the industry can't possibly succeed
 
12:36 PM
I recall having a look at what PnP does, and that most IoT features are covered by the specs. I think the IoT scene would be much better off if people just agreed on implementing the spec instead of rolling their shitty cloud protocols themselves
 
It will succeed monetarily
 
I didn't mean monetary success
I meant actually making things better
 
We're not really saying the idea is bad, but there's an overwhelming flow of poorly implemented IoT devices. For example, this petfeeder should not have failed if servers went down: the last schedule should be saved in RAM or on some kind of onboard storage... it's insane that it wasn't and that it actually stopped working.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't recall seeing one useful thing brought by the IoT craze
 
@slaphappy selection bias?
 
12:38 PM
I said not even one
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Do you have examples of useful IoT devices?
 
It's like how Google Maps refuses to show the locations I've starred / saved on my phone unless I'm connected to the internet at that moment. It doesn't make any sense.
 
I think that many things really don't need to be connected to the internet
 
Why would you need to change the feeding schedule remotely?
How useful is that?
It's like blockchain
 
Linking something to the internet increases vulnerability by like 20 times minimum. You need to have a good reason and real use cases to justify that I think
 
12:40 PM
Startups slapping buzzwords on otherwise perfectly boring everyday stuff and suddenly it's innovation
 
@Lalaland I think Philips Hue is a pretty good one.
 
Ell
@Lalaland I want to say a tea making device
 
I've also heard people say a lot good things about Amazon Echo
 
Ell
Where you can make a cup of tea remotely
 
Hue Hue Hue
 
Ell
12:41 PM
So its ready for you when you arrive home
 
otherwise, the really good ones, not surprisingly, don't come from startups
my colleague designed and implemented temperature control system for his place
 
Wait
 
based on 8 micro arduinos, temp sensors, synched by bluetooth
 
House lighting is controlled by phone
Why
 
he bought everything himself, including servo water valves
 
12:42 PM
For when you forget to turn off a light and don't want to leave it on for a day.
 
and last time I checked on that project he was writing an android app to control it
 
Ell
@Shoe so you don't have to get off your armchair or w/e
 
@Ell so... british
 
Get your fat ass up and go turn off the lights
 
@Shoe the fact it can be controlled by phone is just an added benefit
 
12:43 PM
Or just put sensors in and clap
 
the idea of connected devices is that they can be controlled by pretty much anything
 
@Ell You have to automate the pouring, the heating, the thrashing, though, even though you need a closed container for your tea
 
@Shoe philips hue does more than just on and off
 
Ell
@slaphappy my mum always told me off for not putting the kettle on as she arrived
 
4 mins ago, by Shoe
Linking something to the internet increases vulnerability by like 20 times minimum. You need to have a good reason and real use cases to justify that I think
 
12:44 PM
@Ell The IoT part is just that you don't have to wait 3 minutes because you ordered it earlier
 
@BartekBanachewicz Such as?
 
@Shoe adaptive lighting, colours / moods, working together with TV, different color temps
 
@Ell I mean it would be great to have a tea-making machine with minimal effort, but come on you can just push the button and wait. The added value of the IoT part is minimal
 
That's... scary
 
how is different light temperature a scary thing
 
12:46 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Wireless hue control largely predates IoT.
 
I like that title
0
Q: What is most advantage of using char instead of 'int'

sclee1Below are my codes that convert large letters to small letters and vice versa. #if SOL_2 char ch; char diff = 'A' - 'a'; //int diff = 'A' - 'a'; fputs("input your string : ", stdout); while ((ch = getchar()) != '\n') { if (ch >= 'a' && ch <= '...

 
@slaphappy how can it predate something it kinda helped to start
it was one of the pioneering projects; maybe that's why it's actually getting decent now
as opposed to all things that we're seeing first iterations of
 
There's no "internet" in "change the color of the light bulb"
 
I simply don't understand why are you looking at the whole concept basing on the current generation of failures
 
That's my main criticism about IoT
 
12:48 PM
the internet simply makes it easy to connect stuff to other stuff
 
The dog feeder thing is just "schedule dropping food for you dog, internet"
 
in a lot of cases LAN is enough
 
"control the temperature of your house depending on time and day, internet"
 
I mean if I were to buy things like that myself I'd probably make a separe VLAN for them
 
@BartekBanachewicz Plain old radio is enough actually
 
12:49 PM
and cut them off the internet
@slaphappy requires proprietary access
BT is also meh because it can only pair to one device
using LAN gives you much more flexibility in authorizing more people
 
Yeah, BT sucks for that. But IoT != openness. Most gadgets are still proprietary.
 
OTOH Spotify still fucks that up and disallows controlling one Spotify Connect by more people IIRC
@slaphappy I expect standards for exchange for them to pop up rather soon
something like Google Fit/Health
Ideally you'd make communication with all those devices via a security gateway
 
I'd like to see that but I think you're being overly optimistic
 
Wait, and you're realistic basing on what, two years of development by shitty startups?
 
At best we'll have a few competing IoT platforms with 2/3 winners after a few years
At worst each gadget will have its own wifi adapter and will require a separate cloud service with constant internet connection to function (current situation AFAIK)
 
12:53 PM
them having wifi is perfectly fine
 
it's not like looking at software in general gives that much confidence
 
requiring internet connection is not
 
it's what? 20 years that banking online exists and banks still get fucked
 
@Shoe meh, modern languages are evolving in a rather good direction
@Shoe banking moves extremely slow
 
@BartekBanachewicz Based on situation with all domotic tech, all smartTV/set-top-box/uPnP devices
 
12:54 PM
10 years of online storage and we keep hearing of leaks
 
@Shoe baking :3
 
@Shoe yum
 
@milleniumbug lol
 
Online baking sounds good thou
 
@slaphappy SmartTVs are terrible, but stuff like Apple TV and Amazon and Steam and whatnot are pretty nice.
 
12:55 PM
eveything gets leaked and hacked all the time
 
@Shoe yes, security is hard
what's your point?
 
OpenSSL had a huge security bug for years
 
that we should stop using the internet?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Sure, but you get vendor lockin still
 
@BartekBanachewicz no of course not
 
12:55 PM
@slaphappy vendor lockin is like patriarchy
 
nwp
@Shoe why keep? I would expect online storage to be responsible for that.
 
With Apple TV you're pretty much stucked with buying everything Apple
 
everyone talks about it and yet noone saw it
 
16 mins ago, by Shoe
Linking something to the internet increases vulnerability by like 20 times minimum. You need to have a good reason and real use cases to justify that I think
 
@slaphappy bullshit
 
12:56 PM
This is my point
IoT goes directly against that principle
It becomes "Let's connect everything to the internet and see what use cases come up"
 
I agree that unnecessary internet connections aren't a great idea
@Shoe kinda. But that's not necessarily bad.
 
LOL
Have a look at the minutes for Oulu
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because you consider it as experimental
 
> Move to apply to the C++ working paper the proposed wording in P0292R2 ("P0292R2:
constexpr if: A slightly different syntax"). **Voutilainen states it is the best thing ever. Garcia disagrees.**
 
I mean if you have a better idea to improve things, sure, do it, make a startup and develop devices free of internet connections.
Go ahead.
If you think things without internet are better, buy them.
 
12:58 PM
Just automate things but don't connect them to the internet if it's not necessary
Like the dog feeder, just automate dog feeding
 
But constant whining about people who are trying to do new things is boring
 
Lights, do your lights based on time and climate without internet
Nobody is constantly whining about it
The argument came up, we discuss it
 
that's not the point and you already know it
 
oh right it's vendor lockin
 
nwp
@BartekBanachewicz people constantly make stuff without internet connections, some of those are even improvements
 
12:59 PM
it's always about vendor lock-in
I feel so locked in
 
no
 
What's vendor lock-in
 
@Shoe it's a mythical creature
it exists in legends
 
That was an entirely different issue
 

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