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12:00 PM
Yeah, I don't like the "I was born in the wrong body" explanation and the medicla explanations they use to justify it.
 
It's a trick to make people more accepting. But it doesn't serve the debate well.
 
Because if that's the case, then if we find a "fix" for this medical (as you call it) problem you have, you've set the dialog up that we're kind've obligated to provide treatment.
 
and what's wrong with that?
 
> I was born in the wrong body.
> Good news! We have drugs to help you not think like that.
 
@orlp The trick in the quote is to use the same turn of phrase "born in". By analogy it might make people conclude the speaker now implies that there is (gasp) something wrong with that society.
Of course that's an invalid conclusion, but I suspect it's what tripped @wilx. Which is why I would like to know why he found the tweet bullshit.
 
12:01 PM
@ThePhD gender dysphoria is a medical problem, just like depression
 
Definitions only. Medical science has no jurisdiction to decide what bodies are "right" or "wrong". Not even if they deem something a medical condition according to the current definitions in the field.
 
the sad part is that a significant portion of people that suffer from gender dysphoria never get succesful treatment (feeling broken even after a sex change)
@sehe I guess it also depends on how you view the mind-body topic
 
What does? Of course lots of things depends on viewpoint and opinion, but you were arguing that something being recognized as medical condition changes the story (like, e.g. society not dealing well with deviations from statistical or historical norm)
 
@sehe was I?
I was not aware
 
user1804599
12:05 PM
Visual COBOL is pretty neat.
 
user1804599
It's got refactoring and stuff, and formatting, and auto completion.
 
@orlp get aware :)
 
did not know about the no-confidence motion
 
Also disappointed that #Labour is blaming Corbyn for not pandering to racist electorate. Is this really what we want to encourage? #EUref
 
@orlp Part of that is the dependence on drugs to achieve the body they want. The other part is that SRS doesn't actually give you any truly working bits: you're still biologically locked into what body you got tabled with to start, and even most treatments render you impotent or fundamentally impaired in your ability to reproduce.
 
12:07 PM
I try to stay away from the whole gender thing in general
 
(It also affects your ability to have/enjoy sexual intercourse, but I have to go back and read the studies: it may be a placebo effect.)
 
as far as I'm concerned you're XX or XY (yeah I know some people have fucked up chromosomes beyond that) and whatever you call yourself I don't really care
 
user1804599
I don't mind not being able to reproduce.
 
Some people don't, yes. Others, do.
 
I don't care either.
 
user1804599
12:09 PM
It makes sex easier; no need to swallow pills.
 
user1804599
No menstruation.
 
user1804599
woo
 
It's the highest reason why my non-binary friends who undergo hormone treatment struggle to commit to Sex Reassignment Surgery, even the ones who've told me repeatedly they want it: in the future, they would like to be able to at least attempt to have their own children.
 
user1804599
Still don't know whether rightfold's vagina will ever be a fact though
 
Among these folk, however, things like Penis Transplants successfully done recently and the new advance that has gotten the human male body to being producing a tiny amount of the female hormone within them make them excited as fuck, because it means that there's advances being made for being able to, essentially, swap sexy bits.
 
user1804599
12:11 PM
BENIS
 
tbh I still don't get the core of the whole gender SJW debate
the sides are not clear to me
 
They're not clear to me either and the gender concept as was historically founded is kind've dumb.
The term "non-binary" is also dumb and not short and easy to say and absolutely unclear. It defines itself in terms of "not being what the current thing is", but fails to specify what that actually brings to the table as far as what it's supposed to fucking mean.
"We're not traditional" Con fucking gratulations, what does that tell me about you?
What impact does it have on you as a person?
Traditional man/woman gender roles were too rigid and applied too many restrictions onto the people they were lumped into either group based on birth sex, implying and cajoling social behaviors from them that they may or may not be comfortable with. "Non-binary", and all the terms that come after it, entirely pull those apart and say "you can identify how you want", which is fundamentally fine but what people seem not to understand is that now you need to go a step beyond.
 
user5058091
# #
 
As far as I'm concerned gender is society's reaction to your looks and behavior, and expectations that come from that.
you can't claim to be something else
if you look like a man, talk like a man and act like a man, you bet your ass your gender is a man, because that's how society reacts to you
2
and society doesn't care you want to be a squirrel-dragon fluid
 
Well, that's exactly the problem for non-binary people: the expectations suck and they want new definitions that are free from the pre-supplied categories, but in doing so they essentially shift the balance of determining what they want to themselves.
Which is problematic because the rest of us cannot be fully informed of the way you like it since that knowledge is not culturally ubiquitous.
 
12:18 PM
@ThePhD that's not how definitions work
definitions describe reality, they don't dictate it
non-binary to me means 'I don't understand gender'
 
@orlp vOv See: scramble of everyone trying to define / shape what the new gender terms people come up with mean.
 
@ThePhD the thing is, I never see those people
I only ever see people talking about those people
or posts ridiculing this people
 
CWG motions are on.
 
CWG?
 
Core Working Group.
 
12:20 PM
@Griwes of what?
there's 5000000 of those
 
@orlp ISO PL22.16/WG21 CWG.
 
oh C++ shit
 
user1804599
@orlp There is nothing to get about SJWs. They just want to be circlejerking in their safe spaces and make everybody who has different opinions feel miserable.
 
@orlp I see both. Sometimes their the same person. Ultimately, every conversation begins with a long list of definitions. "No, hold on, gender xxx means...". I do not have enough limbs and extremities to count how many conversations I've had where someone spends a good 5-25 minutes telling me what their version of genderfluid / non-binary / etc. means.
 
here's how I see it, sex = XX/XY, gender = perceived sex
non-binary doesn't exist, as people generally only perceive male or female
'but, but, I don't want to be perceived that way'
no one cares
 
12:24 PM
@orlp They care, and it matters to them, and they're trying to change that.
E_CANNOT_READ
q-q I need to learn more langauges
 
user1804599
no wait that was the wrong article
 
"I want you to see me like this" -> "no"
 
Template argument deduction for template constructors, without partial type specification (which is going to be somehow introduced via an NB comment): 52-1, 13 abstained.
 
@Bassie pretty much
"tolerate me" -> "I already am"
"accomodate me" -> "no"
 
12:27 PM
Declaring non-type template parameters with auto: unanimous consent.
 
@Bassie what happened to adriaan?
@Griwes trigger warning: consent
 
vOv
Wording for guaranteed copy elision also with unanimous consent.
 
gief concepts & modules or GTFO
 
user1804599
@orlp Massaontslag, net als bij Pauw en Witteman
 
kek
 
12:29 PM
@Griwes I'm only half joking :(
I feel that without concepts/modules these are minor issues for a dying language
 
@ThePhD No they don't.
you seem to have some deep need to classify people, but you could always just treat them as individual people and not require that they join some other classification.
 
@Bassie top kek "grootschalige reorganisatie"
 
Core issue 1776 fixed unanimously. (Ville: "this makes optional actually work".)
 
@Puppy people have a deep need to classify people, and whether you like it or not, sex is a pretty significant classification
 
@Puppy I was going to say "in a perfect world, you generally wouldn't give a shit about this and just judge people on the content of their character".
 
12:30 PM
@orlp Then people are wrong.
 
@Puppy are they ever not?
look at brexit :D
 
@Griwes Core issue 1776 is what exactly?
 
user1804599
yeah, almost 50% of voters were wrong
 
@Griwes Is it optional references?
Please tell me it's optional references.
 
@Griwes Please enter your username and password
 
12:32 PM
argh
wrong paper
 
RIP, I am not allowed, I don't have username and password.
 
@Griwes give username/pw please
I need it
 
Blergh, I can't see the paper in the mailing either.
 
@ThePhD That one never got proposed AFAIK.
 
@orlp No.
 
12:33 PM
@Morwenn Shit.
 
@Griwes but what if yes?
 
@ThePhD Write a proposal.
 
The title of the paper is "Core Issue 1776: Replacement of class objects containing reference members".
 
Guess I still have to stay with sol::optional then.
 
anyway gone for a while, playing overwatch game
 
12:34 PM
@Morwenn It was part of the original proposal. I don't know who fucking gutted it.
 
@orlp Go to a a meeting and you'll get it.
 
@Morwenn stackoverflow.com/a/26895581/5280922 -- It already was a separate proposal. It probably got shot down...
Fucking comitte members.
 
Gender is but the mere fucking crossbreed of social role and sexual expression. That's pretty much it and doesn't mean much by itself.
 
Oh look, Bryce's doing this.
 
12:35 PM
^ is a list of what we're voting into the C++17 working draft right now
 
@ThePhD Oh.
 
WHAT THE HELL IS FORMATTING
I'll just leave the link there.
 
@Morwenn wait what
How is gender derivative of sexual expression?
 
I'm still not sure who / why "optional references" were uncomfortable. I need to go find the meeting minutes for all the C++14 meetings and grep them so I can find that committee member and pick a fight.
 
Hmm, long discussion about specifying the order of evaluation of function arguments.
 
12:37 PM
@Rapptz that reminds me, one of these days soon I’d like to hear if your opinion on C++1z has changed
 
@Griwes Wasn't everyone opposed to that, generally unanimously?
 
@ThePhD There's no unanimous opposition, because Gaby is strongly in favor. :D
 
Well, the pre-Gaby committee generally shot that idea down.
"People depending on order of evaluation generally write bad code" etc. etc.
 
what does "pre-Gaby committee" even mean
 
The committee that showed up on panels and other talks and Gaby wasn't sitting among them.
THey generally shot down the idea -- whenever brought up -- "we should have a fixed evaluation order".
 
12:40 PM
@ThePhD Chandler raised the point of his users wanting Clang to implement a feature to diagnose when they do something that depends on the order of arguments.
And that the proposal breaks this.
Oh, and now apparently EWG misunderstood the paper when talking about it earlier.
(Chandler saying that a + b is going to be defined, the rest that it is NOT doing that. Wow.)
Bjarne says he likes it.
 
I want to go to the meetings now. :(
 
:D
 
I need to get a huge sum of cash.
 
It's a lot of fun.
 
Ven
$$$
 
12:43 PM
ANd I need to stop doing stupid school stuff.
Fuck. I want to participate so badly.
 
@ThePhD Issaquah in November!
I doubt I will be able to attend that one sanely.
 
@Griwes SCHOOL IN NOVEMBER q____q
Is Issaquah in Europe?
 
I might do something insane and actually attend it, but eh, we'll see (I somewhat expect to be in Australia then, but... eh).
@ThePhD It's right next to Seattle.
 
Oh, I can try to get there.
GONNA COST ME ALL THIS MONEY THOUGh but I'll get there and become a Committee Member.
What's the fee like? 1K a year or something?
 
Not a member. An observer. :P
The US fee for being an actual member is like $2k.
 
12:44 PM
Holy fuck.
A year?
That's a top-end computer / laptop per year.
 
Obviously a year. How else? :D
 
that's two doners every day for a year
 
I will vote against expression evaluation order myself.
 
Oh, hi Bryce. :D
 
If pinged I can probably answer some questions
 
12:47 PM
@Griwes I'm going to stand with him on this one.
 
@Griwes wait. Is it a prank?!
@orlp 2 jaar oud nieuws :)
 
Oh, actually no confusion between Core and Evolution.
 
@orlp why do there have to be sides. We agree on useful definitions without there having to be opposing sides.
@orlp And that's a problem. People get unhappy if they "are" what society expects from that. In that perspective, it becomes society's responsibility to avoid expecting to many specifics from individuals.
All the "debates" that I do see happening center around that: don't make me adhere to your expectations /it it should not matter to you at all/
@orlp Perception is passive. Expectations become active. Cf. restroom "safety"
 
Ven
@Griwes abstained?! :o
 
@Ven Like, not voted. Decided not to vote either way.
 
Ven
12:59 PM
@blelbach Amazing, thanks!
@Griwes @blelbach put it in the reddit post tho?!
 
@Ven not really that relevant though
@blelbach I think your speakers are on? :D
 
I'm not listing things that are not going in
they're off now
 
Ven
@blelbach so template arg deduction for ctors is IN?
 
Yeah, noticed :P
 
@ven: yes
 
user1804599
1:02 PM
I updated my LinkedIn summary woo :v
 
Ven
okay, because @Griwes was saying the opposite :P
 
@Ven ...no?
52-1 with 13 not voting. It'd be insane not to count that as consensus, right?
 
@griwes: Which thing
 
@blelbach Template arg deduction.
 
@Griwes That + mandatory copy elisions = better factories.
Next step: deprecate std::make_* /o/
 
1:05 PM
Evaluation order approved without requiring the left-to-right evaluation for function arguments.
 
Ven
@Griwes ah, I thought you meant the paper wasn't voted at all >.>
@Griwes oO?
 
What? I told exactly what happened!
Okay, we're at default comparisons. Let's see...
 
> I can't wait to see how all the people who were waiting for the term "Brexit" to die off come to terms with the fact that it's going to be mentioned in history books
 
Ell
@blelbach what is wrong with it?
 
#CppOulu #Cpp17 will support a defined expression evaluation order for idiomatic C++, but not for function arguments
Wait ... why not function args?
 
1:12 PM
Because there were many hands up against that variant.
:D
 
but why
 
Optimizers.
 
Ven
@Borgleader holy LOL the reply to that tweet
 
@Ven lol
 
This Just In: Functions that take arguments no longer part of idiomatic C++ https://twitter.com/AlisdairMered/status/746328865111412736
James was faster :P
 
1:15 PM
> I had to put together my list of concerns on this.
lol
 
@Griwes I dont get how that applies to function args but not to expressions =/ or wtv
 
@Ell I do not understand the performance implications of the feature, especially on in-order architectures without heavy-weight CPU front-end heuristics. I cannot interpret the performance results presented by the authors of this feature without further information about the benchmark, test conditions and the variance they recorded when executing the test
TL;DR If you tell me "I ran some benchmarks and saw +/-4% performance" without discussing experimental variance, I cannot trust your data.
 
meh, that's a shitty reason to vote against it
 
@Borgleader Okay, so there's some expressions where this was previously not very well defined, like, say, a += b;; also if I understand correctly (@blelbach?), function arguments can't be interleaved now (so the old foo(new int, new int); with foo taking smart pointers is now correct).
 
expression order not being defined is such a bad correctness problem that sacrificing a bit of performance for correctness is well worth it here.
after all, the as-if rule still applies.
 
1:17 PM
@Griwes a += b doesn't do it
a(b1, b2, b3)
 
I imagine most cases where the compiler could actually take advantage of this will fall under as-if anyway.
 
a is sequenced before b
 
@blelbach Err, a @= b is listed in the paper.
 
so now the answer to the "i++ + ++i ..." bulllshit questions is update your compiler? :P
 
Wow, default comparison operators just died in fire.
 
1:18 PM
the bs are indeterminately sequenced
 
Ven
no, that's an entirely different one.
 
@Griwes No one should have been surprised by that
 
Ven
@blelbach as a newbie: why not?
 
@blelbach I'm just surprised by the amount of the fire :P
 
@Ven I'll be too distracted to talk about the technical reasons now
 
Ell
1:19 PM
@Griwes why?
 
@Griwes Any chance for opt-in default comparison operators?
 
but a large part of the committee was opposed to it
 
@Morwenn That's what the committee wants, yes.
 
@Griwes It was contentious in EWG this week, but I was under the impression that people stll wanted it in
 
The current design is all but opt-in - it's viral, in a very bad way.
 
1:19 PM
@Griwes Cool so we can do operator==(T& other) = default?
 
@Borgleader No.
 
I was for default == and != and opt-in relational operators.
 
We don't get anything (which is far better than what we would've gotten).
@Barry ...not in the proposed form.
 
Well, at least default == and != for aggregates.
 
@Morwenn oh aren't you a regular guy ;)
 
1:20 PM
ahahahahha how can anyone say that constexpr if "blocks" concepts
 
@Borgleader Naw, that's still UB cause + isn't sequenced
 
@ScarletAmaranth That pun.
 
@Barry Use reply arrows, tia. :)
 
Ven
Also, what are the rules for expression evaluation order?
 
I'm repeatedly surprised by how seriously people can actually say that sentence out loud.
 
Ven
1:22 PM
@Griwes badlets say that
 
"Will be used as an argument against concepts" used as an argument against constexpr if. @blelbach how do you like this argument? xD
 
@Borgleader Alright, next time
 
Ell
I need to read default compare proposal
 
@Ell Basically: if, after user conversions, no overload is found for a comparison, a comparison operator is generated.
It's not a part of overload resolution.
 
1:23 PM
@Barry Well I'm not sure where the evaluation order thing applies if its on expressions but not operators args or function args.
 
You can't opt out (deleting a comparison operator breaks user conversions).
 
I must be missing something obvious
 
Ell
Eh that's weird
 
You can't take the address of the default comparison operator.
 
@Griwes I believe that argument is invalid.
 
Ven
1:24 PM
@Griwes that is OUT, aye?
 
Ell
Who thought that was a good idea? :V
 
@blelbach I believe it's laughable :D
@Ven Yes.
 
@Griwes The dirty secret of default comparisons is that it introduced a new lookup system that has lots of caveats.
 
@Ell Bjarne.
 
Ven
@blelbach your reddit links are wikiful :[ (thus password-protected)
 
1:25 PM
I have updated them
or am updating them
 
Dammit, not as much agreement with constexpr if as I'd like in the discussion. :D
 
Ven
Thanks!
 
@Borgleader Some operators are sequenced (shift, assignment) but some aren't (+-*/%). Basically, it's just a list well all have to memorize
 
@Barry Oh lord... I mean, I get the other puppy's point that it adds correctness, but on the flipside its yet another bunch of exceptions to a rule we need to keep track of =/
 
well, everything should be sequenced.
why the fuck would you fix only half the problem?
 
Ven
1:28 PM
@Borgleader that's not Puppy's point at all
 
@Puppy I second that.
 
if constexpr passed, but to expect some NB comments.
 
Ven
i.e.?
 
If you want sequencing, be Java a.operator+(b) :)
 
Ven
@Barry only = and bitwise operators will be sequenced?
 
1:30 PM
@Ven Puppy litterally said sacrificing a bit of performance was well worth it to get correctness aye?
 
Ven
@Borgleader Puppy wants everything to be sequenced. He doesn't want exceptions.
 
All I'm saying is, what were getting is half a fix and I dont like that.
It applies to some things but not others
 
Ven
(from what I understand, he can correct me if I'm wrong..)
 
@Ven my quote of Puppy's point ended at the comma.
The rest is me disaggreeing with whats been voted.
 
Ven
@Borgleader you said "on the flipside". that means you're weighing Puppy's comment...
 
1:32 PM
well strictly speaking, my point is still valid even if you're only trading that off in some cases
but it seems fucking dumb to not do it in all cases.
 
@Ven Eh maybe I said it wrong but thats not what I meant. I meant: I get that this brings us a good thing correctness, but its also bringing us a bad thing i.e. its not done all the time so we have to keep track of where it applies. Which I dont like.
Its yet another "arbitrary" complexity.
 
that's not good enough reason to vote against either.
 
Ven
@Borgleader Right, I agree – and so does Puppy :P.
 
I would not refuse a good thing just because there could be more of that good thing.
 
What was the issue with if constexpr that needs a NB comment?
 
1:36 PM
@Puppy No ofc not. As a whole I think it's a positive proposal, I just wishing it had been positive-er :P
So I asked this the other day but I got no answer, so I'ma be annoying and ask again. How much "legit/not broken" code would be broken if .begin()/.end() were specified as It begin() &; ?
 
none that I know of
 
I'm assuming that change would have been proposed already, cuz I refuse to believe I'm the first to think of that.
Would prevent noob errors.
 
Hey guys, I'm a new programmer and I'm trying to simulate a roulette system but I ran into a problem that doesn't make sense. I basically reduced my system to a fair toin coss(I reduced it gradually to find out where's the root of the problem) and in 10 million trials the chance that I flip heads is really close to 54% every damn time. Why is this happening?
 
your rand function sucks :P
 
My rand function is rand() and I get a seed from time.
 
1:47 PM
Terrible.
 
Yeah, rand() sucks.
 
So the problem is how I generate the random number? Any suggestions on how to do it as random as possible?
 
We're on inline variables, going to discussion.
 
Flip a coin
 
@UserX Really interesting article if you have time: cpp.indi.frih.net/blog/2014/12/the-bell-has-tolled-for-rand
 
1:49 PM
@Griwes speaking of contentious EWG discussions...
 
@Barry Where you there during the discussion? :D
 
@Griwes wtf is an inline variable?
 
Oh, Bjarne again arguing that we don't need to do a small thing because a big thing is coming. :D
@Borgleader Basically, avoiding ODR violations and having weak references for static variables (so that your header-only library can have global variables).
(Allows your global variables behave like global variable templates.)
 
@Borgleader Global variables without ODR problems, just like inline functions. Useful for global function objects like Niebler's customization point.
 
@Morwenn Will look into, thanks.
 
1:51 PM
The current workaround involves variable templates and anonymous namespaces.
 
Or function local statics. Both aren't really good.
 
@Griwes Oh... another thing that makes my head hurt -.-;
 
@Griwes Yeah. I was surprised. I thought this would be straightforward
 
@Barry It can't be straightforward when Bjarne doesn't agree!
 
@LucDanton at least "splendid isolation" had some cachet
 
1:54 PM
@Griwes He's right when saying that modules should solve the problem though.
Except if you don't use modules.
 
I don't think modules solve the problem though. Could be wrong.
 
Except (1) we don't have modules and (2) header files are not going to go away just because the standard starts having modules.
@Barry I think it kinda does, at least for the general case.
 
@Griwes Which is why I'm for inline variables.
 
@sehe hah!
 
@sehe I prefer "jolly co-operation"
 
1:59 PM
that's US right. With wildly varying meanings of "jolly"
 

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