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9:03 PM
at 18:17
I wonder if he knew about the meme
 
What does it mean?
@AlexM. Lounge!(D)
 
28 mins ago, by Alex M.
Lounge!(C++)
close enough
 
user1804599
I like just "Lounge!D".
 
Oh nice. Special rule for unary templates?
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
9:07 PM
Urinary Temples
 
Does C++ have reflection? It has type introspection which is 1/2 of it right?
 
user1804599
It has a very limited form of RTTI and it has SFINAE.
 
There is no way in C++ to say "Give me a list of all the methods" or something.
 
@fredoverflow but it has type introspection right?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Mill won't have that either. Wanna know why?
 
9:08 PM
@VermillionAzure It has the typeid operator or something. Also dynamic_cast.
 
> or something
Isn't that quite important?
 
@VermillionAzure No
 
I have never used it.
 
@rightfold I had a slightly different idea
 
@rightfold You are too lazy?
 
9:09 PM
@fredoverflow Couldn't it be used to do something with polymorphism or something?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Because Mill won't have methods. :D
 
user1804599
@orlp possible I guess.
 
since it's only a char to store the type id, I should be able to store a bit more meta information
 
It returns an object whose name() member returns an implementation-defined string
 
rather than a full pointer
one pointer per object adds up quickly
 
9:10 PM
@VermillionAzure We already have virtual methods for polymorphism, TYVM.
 
@VermillionAzure Ahahaha no
 
user1804599
@orlp As long as it's trivially copyable and the vptr is in the same place for all objects, really.
 
@rightfold ye
 
user1804599
Can't use a char for the type if you want to allow user-defined types.
 
@orlp Objects already have a vptr. Pretty sure typeid works with the same pointer and looks up meta stuff in the vtable.
 
9:11 PM
@rightfold They don't have to have unique tags really
 
@fredoverflow vtables implemented by C++ can't be used according to rightfold
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow he wants it trivally-copyable.
 
@fredoverflow because it's a compacting GC
 
hmmm
But wouldn't it be nice to be able to separate data from its methods?
 
@VermillionAzure Clojure
 
9:11 PM
But still have it encapsulated on a function-like object thing?
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus you have to have a descriptor of the object's layout somewhere.
 
user1804599
And know which descriptor belongs to the object.
 
@VermillionAzure std::function
 
You already do: it's a list
 
user1804599
oh
 
user1804599
9:12 PM
well what I had in mind is that if you create a new struct then in memory it'd be represented like a C struct
 
@nabijaczleweli Hm... how do I say this...
Something like you create C-like structs with C++-like objects...
And then you create objects to encapsulate the POD-like objects
 
dafuq is that design
 
The objects have functions to operate on them, but you move the data along like an assembly line
So each object acts on the POD or such, like operators on a matrix
 
I wonder how funny a cleaning bot would look like if it used some kind of incremental learning to reach its goal
would the house survive tho
 
user1804599
@VermillionAzure In Clojure and Elixir you can separate them and still have overloading on dynamic type (like virtual methods).
 
9:14 PM
@rightfold Yes, but I don't program in either.
 
@AlexM. it will likely construct some dark matter bomb to fully clean the earth from existence
 
> An initiative for 2014 is to get UK children to learn how to write computer code. The reporter talking about the idea shows her ignorance of technology, Jeremy Paxman shows he's a technology luddite knows nothing about nothing, and the director of the "Year of Code" initiative, says she can't write any computer code, but you can learn it in a day! Car crash TV. So bad a piece you watch it in disbelief.
 
user1804599
Mill will feature that as well.
 
@fredoverflow no
 
9:14 PM
Do you guys regret not fucking more?
 
I haven't really found a good reason to learn another language yet...
@rightfold use code to teach them to think
 
you talk as if we fuck at all
 
user1804599
Rather than teach everyone to code, let's teach them to think. The coding can come later; it's easier.
4
 
> She's the director of Year of Code and yet she cannot code. Priceless. Where do I join?
> So a woman who knows absolutely nothing about code has been given the role of Director??? No wonder this country's so fucked up.
lol
 
user1804599
@VermillionAzure then the world will be ruled by pedants and people who correct everybody all the time.
 
9:15 PM
Or maybe because you need people and management skills to be a director
 
user1804599
Which would indeed be a good thing.
 
@rightfold is that any different from what we have now?
 
Not a ridiculous nerd
 
@Jefffrey Also, who cares about fucking? People can fuck a blow up but it's the human connection that matters.
 
andrei alexandrescu is p funny
 
9:17 PM
I regret being myself every day
 
@CatPlusPlus Start being me then.
 
@nabijaczleweli well, I've been working with raw data in R, right? There's all sorts of meta data and the such...
But recently I've had to treat my data more like a database because it's so large
And then libraries assume that things are done one way and it's hard to really create operations to operate on them...
So why not separate information primitives used in the library and expose them as types as well?
 
Ell
time to make gentoo usb
 
@fredoverflow You just discovered that eh?
 
@Ell Sounds adventurous.
 
9:19 PM
usbtoo
 
@Jefffrey Yes. I mostly post stuff here that's new to me.
 
I don't know I feel like there's something missing that could be better...
 
@CatPlusPlus usbthreepointone
 
@fredoverflow Oh hey you've got research exp right?
 
Ell
I'm taking the plunge
I need to backup private keys and keepassx db
 
9:19 PM
@Ell s/ge/ger
 
@VermillionAzure I lost my keys twice. The first time I searched it. The second time, I re-searched. So yeah, I have research experience.
 
user1804599
dat pun
 
@inf regarding your bountied question, perhaps now (3 days to go) is a good time to give it another impulse? An edit to the post will bring it back to the activity rankings, Perhaps you've done some reading in relation to Hans Passant's answer and you can confirm it, or ask a follow up question etc.
 
user1804599
I don't know whether JIT compilation is a good idea.
 
user1804599
When the target language of the JIT compiler is JavaScript.
 
Ell
9:22 PM
oh wait I haven't figured out how I'll do kernel config yet :3
 
I'm serious; does anybody here have research and publication experience?
 
@Ell Livestream it hehe.
 
user1804599
@VermillionAzure @BenjaminGruenbaum perhaps.
 
Ell
@Nooble I'm not sure that's possible
it'll be installed by the time I can run OBS
 
1. Take Debian's config. 2. Use it and don't worry about things that concern 0.001% of Linux userbase
 
9:23 PM
I'm interested in publishing a paper and doing independent research without a mentor. How might I go about doing this?
 
You gain literally nothing by wasting 3 hours going through kconfig
 
I'm not exactly sure how to start preparing either...
 
@Ell You can do a remote installation if you have two computers.
 
Funtoo at least should have preconfigured ebuilds for kernels
 
Or which journals/papers I should jump into...
 
9:24 PM
Gentoo only has genkernel I think
 
> Wow, this thread is awful. Sure, the teacher isn't the best. The interview was bad. They're not getting an A+ curriculum. But the point is just to introduce people to coding, and help them out by putting "HTML/CSS/Javascript" on their resume.
ROFL
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus there are just a few options that I know I want to have
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow web is bad
 
@fredoverflow Honestly, HTML/CSS/JS is probably the lightest first experience you can get, especially JS.
I've seen and done JS + Minecraft with kids and it works wonders.
 
Really just grab Funtoo and then use debian-sources
It has binary builds and you don't have to muck around in kconfig
You're unlikely to need features that aren't enabled in Debian builds
 
9:26 PM
> I know so many people that decided they don't care for it at all even after they chose to take a course in it.
lol this is like 90% of students
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus There is one in particular
that lets you monitor network access of programmes
 
@fredoverflow It's amazing how so many people don't care about... the stuff they do.
@rightfold Well?
 
user1804599
No, the web isn't well.
 
user1804599
It's terrible.
 
@rightfold No, which journals/papers should a beginner to CS read if they want to get ahead?
Which might be relevant to architectural/systems design and education?
 
user1804599
9:28 PM
step one is to define CS
 
user1804599
is it actual CS or an application development for dummies course?
 
@rightfold I'm not really interested in CS proper, but I'm interested in how CS is taught and intellectually developed and how people map their understanding to CS and their products and style of programming and all of these things.
 
@Ell What's that? Don't recall any kernel features offhand that have anything to do with that
 
Like, how do you teach a linked list? Is there a set progression that is better? Is there a hierarchical way to teach CS concepts? Is there a ladder like math?
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I just recall trying to use a programme and it complained because my kernel wasn't compiled with a particular switch
I'll google and see if I can find the programme now
 
9:30 PM
@VermillionAzure Start high-level (Haskell) and work your way down, or start low-level (some Assembly language or maybe C) and work your way up.
 
Don't start low level for CS crap god
 
@fredoverflow Why do you think I'm here?
 
@VermillionAzure Are you a teacher?
 
user1804599
because what the school I went to marketed as CS was actually an application development for dummies course.
 
@fredoverflow No. I'm an undergrad. I'm interested in creating a better uniform way to spread programming and its benefits to the wider world.
 
9:32 PM
Like a disease
 
A nerd disease
 
> YEAR OF MATH!

Yep, anyone who doesn't know math can learn math in an hour
(counting on your fingers is math too right?)

And anyone can be a math-teacher, after being trained in about a day.
2
 
@Jefffrey Disagree.
 
@VermillionAzure You must start with something visual. Like programming a robot to do cool stuff. But it really must be actual programming with if and while statements or something similar. Please no Web stuff.
 
9:33 PM
I don't know, I find this year of code insulting.
 
@fredoverflow that's not what I'm interested in.
 
What's your impression @fredoverflow?
 
Yeah web stuff is definitely not actual programming~
 
people insult jeffrey because they make his skills look simple to get or sth
 
9:34 PM
I'm interested in the progression of learning and logic and how to develop an untrained mind.
 
@Jefffrey Is The Year Of Code an American thing?
 
Don't make people be programmers that's mean and cruel
 
Possible. I think Obama started it.
 
I don't really see any problem in the year of code thing
 
@VermillionAzure Sorry, that sounds too abstract for me.
 
9:34 PM
people can do whatever they want
if they suck they get fired anyway
 
@fredoverflow That's definitely too abstract.
 
@Jefffrey I'm pretty sure there's no such thing in Germany.
 
@fredoverflow Welcome to Cinchglish where words are plenty and meaning is none
 
user1804599
@VermillionAzure Academia
 
if the year of code makes more people want to code it's fine
 
9:35 PM
Programming is terrible
 
@rightfold But you've published papers, right?
 
at least it sets more realistic goals from what I see
 
websites in jquery vs games
 
@AlexM. Well, yeah. What's wrong with that?
 
user1804599
9:36 PM
@VermillionAzure No.
 
Ell
Okay I can't find this programme :3
 
user1804599
Why would I do something as boring as writing a paper?
 
Ell
default kernel will be fine I guess vOv
 
@rightfold Because creating a scientifically-better way to teach something is beneficial for... probably everything.
 
If you need anything outside of stock then you just compile it as a module anyway
 
9:37 PM
I think that if I went to some hospital and started saying that cutting people up and exporting organs is stupidly simple and anybody can learn it, people would either 1) laugh me out of the hospital 2) get really pissed.
 
user1804599
@VermillionAzure there's too problems with that.
 
user1804599
1. I only care about myself, not about everything.
2. Too boring; didn't write.
 
Teaching people programming leads to alcoholism
 
@rightfold and those are too objective reasons.
 
@Jefffrey I tend to only care about opinions wrt my skills from people who work in the same field
 
9:38 PM
I also don't see the point in everybody learning programming.
 
and even here it's directly proportional to their skill level
 
@Jefffrey Because it'll become as important as writing if robots becomes extensions of ourselves into the far and farther future.
 
when someone who's visibly worse makes a compliment I'm like "ok nice"
 
@VermillionAzure lol
 
I only take it very seriously when it's someone who's better than me saying it
 
9:39 PM
@VermillionAzure No they will not.
Also research a little bit the status of general AI. We are so stupidly behind that we can't even estimate how much we are behind.
 
Programming gets more complex not less
 
Light "programming" is probably going to be along the lines of scripting or just configuration options later. Meh.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey the hype exists because of one or more of the following reasons:
 
user1804599
1. Microsoft pays powerful (as in politics) people to compose curricula with their technology.
2. Oracle pays powerful (as in politics) people to compose curricula with their technology.
 
user1804599
corruption must always be assumed by default
 
9:40 PM
@CatPlusPlus The case for regular writing literacy was at this state for many people before.
 
@Jefffrey yes, ignorant people will be ignorant no matter what you do
so just move on?
 
user1804599
it's the safest assumption since it's true most of the time
 
It's always going to be a specialised thing for nerds
 
It's basically like when you get an ETA of ∞
 
@Jefffrey They will; it's just a matter of time.
 
9:40 PM
There's no benefit for general population
To be nerds
 
@CatPlusPlus The same thing was said for writing once. It may take two thousand years, but it will happen.
 
cmon guys nobody learns to code via the year of code
 
If you want to make things ~~scientifically better~~ then start by getting rid of your silly biases
 
it's just meant to promote coding i.e. to make kids think that it may be worth a shot to try it
as I said there's nothing to worry about it's not like people will finish the year of code and then get jobs
 
9:41 PM
@CatPlusPlus Which is why I wanted to go the paper route.
 
@rightfold MS 'convinced' my schools ECE dept to teach C# over C or C++ by buying them a bunch of computers and shit
 
And deliver some real evidence and research.
 
at least not the jobs where you would be their coworkers... I hope
 
Not that C# is bad or whatever, but I was p surprised to learn about it
 
My friend's doing a PhD
 
9:42 PM
Who said I'm worrying. I'm just saying that it's kind of insulting. It's not like a cry about it. It just irritates me, that's all.
 
All that crap is more or less worthless
 
user1804599
@Prismatic hence assume corruption by default
 
user1804599
no more surprises
 
@CatPlusPlus It really depends what it is, you know.
 
@rightfold assuming the worst is always a safe bet but its pretty draining to be that cynical
 
9:42 PM
I think of all the cries this uni is causing me, and all of that is thrown away with a simple "Everybody can code in an hour".
 
@Jefffrey You're expendable and extremely replaceable hohohohohhohohoho
Welcome to the industry
 
I know
 
Would you like a minimum wage job now
 
@Jefffrey They can, as long as you don't mind them putting out complete crap.
 
9:43 PM
And nobody does when they can get money out of it
 
Also I tend to agree that we need more good programmers, not more programmers.
 
Yes the world needs more nerds
 
@Jefffrey But what makes programmers good?
 
Not being bad
 
you can be less expendable if you move to romania, so many programmers are outputted here every year finding great guys is really really hard
 
9:43 PM
Also alcohol
 
@Jefffrey This sort of thing is inevitable as tools get better anyway. From dealing with the craziest architecture specific low level coding shit that requires a ton of specific knowledge, to dragging and dropping in a friendly user interface
 
@AlexM. Same here.
 
I'm not claiming I'm one. I'm trying to become a good programmer. But more people in the industry is not what we need, I think.
 
@Jefffrey Everybody can code. Writing code is easy. Writing good code is hard. Reasoning about systems and architectures and solutions is even harder.
 
@Jefffrey Well, you're wrong.
 
9:44 PM
@Prismatic C and C++ are terrible for teaching programming
 
@EtiennedeMartel I agree, which is why I wanted to do research into how you structure the teaching of these concepts.
 
@Jefffrey Of course we do it's ever expanding monstrosity that needs to fill job slots
 
welp
apparently I will earn £80 more a year due to a tiny cut in income tax.
 
@Jefffrey In general, in most countries in the West, the amount of available software development jobs increases faster than the amount of actual programmers.
 
Having ~all good programmers~ in the industry is no good if you can't hire any of them because they all work at bookface and google already
And you can't beat those in benefits
 
9:46 PM
@Puppy what will you spend all that dosh on
 
dunno
 
That's true
 
yea can you imagine an industry with good programmers only
 
@CatPlusPlus Actually, some people leave Google because of the environment and the work is unsatisfactory from what I hear.
 
ITS AN EXAMPLE GOD
 
9:47 PM
everyone would want to write software at NASA and jQuery shops would go RIP
 
Those are positive changes
 
@AlexM. seems like thats for the best, really
 
Workforce stagnation is industry stagnation
 
@AlexM. Honestly, we shouldn't look down on web programming as a concept. It's going to just become more important.
 
And then decline
And then all those nerds will become jobless and even more useless because all they can do is programming and programming is no longer profitable
r i p
 
9:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus (which is why I'm going for EE/CS rather than CS! :|)
 
@VermillionAzure I hope not, but I'm afraid you are right.
People are jokingly expecting the next operating system to run in a browser.
 
~~web programming~~ is one of those dumb words
phrases
wordphrases
 
Google even released a browser OS
 
@CatPlusPlus Technically, I'm doing "web programming" and it's quite real.
 
Hasn't been 1 hour since last dumb "ohohoh web is not programming" bullshit
 
user1804599
9:49 PM
fuck web
 
Ell
web programming is impossible
it's 2hard4me
 
@rightfold Do you regret not fucking more web when you were younger?
 
@Jefffrey I don't think it's good to integrate the web and desktop because of security reasons and all the speed problems unless something like quantum entanglement creates instantaneous communication between paired particles.
 
use React
 
Distributed systems are way harder than people who repeat that shit think
 
9:50 PM
@VermillionAzure Physically impossible.
 
@VermillionAzure What
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey no
 
@Jefffrey And it's pretty shit.
 
I thought quantum entanglement was the property where if you change one quantum particle's state, it's "paired conjugate" changes state as well.
 
it does, but you can't use it to send information faster than light.
 
Ell
9:51 PM
@Puppy it looks nice to me (for it's intended purpose)
 
otherwise, you could use it for time travel and a bunch of other stuff.
 
@Puppy Was the speed gated? and can you link to it?
 
Ell
I was going to buy a khronbuk
 
@Ell use angularjs
ez UI&logic ez life
 
Angular is p meh
 
Ell
9:52 PM
it is impossible to send information faster than the speed of light apparently
 
@VermillionAzure No, I think that you simply can't derive information from the state changes. I think that the actual state changes are instantaneous regardless of distance.
 
I don't even understand how you get into these stupid ass frameworks anyway
 
@CatPlusPlus I like it a lot because it's the only webdev framework that I know how to use
 
Though UI techs aren't really the interesting parts anyway
 
11
Q: Quantum entanglement faster than speed of light?

Vineet Menonrecently i was watching a video on quantum computing where the narrators describes that quantum entanglement information travels faster than light! Is it really possible for anything to move faster than light? Or are the narrators just wrong? Regards,

 
9:52 PM
@AlexM. React is better.
 
There's no book or whatever introductory overview of how any web programming shit works
Its just "DOWNLOAD THIS, THEN DO THIS, ITS FUCKING MAGIC"
 
If you stop using that stupid "web programming" nonsense term and maybe actually define your problem
 
@StackedCrooked Thank you.
 
How do I make a cool website that's extra fancy
 
React is better but is extremely unhelpful when it comes to structuring the entire app
 
9:53 PM
@Prismatic Use Node.js or one of the billion frameworks in the tens of languages in use.
 
> Its just "DOWNLOAD THIS, THEN DO THIS, ITS FUCKING MAGIC"
 
user1804599
rightfold.sexy scores 99% on Google Page Speed. The 1% it fails at is Google Analytics script not being cached.
 
Yeah frameworks are magic literally nobody on earth can understand anything that happens
christ
 
@Prismatic Was that a serious question?
 
@CatPlusPlus React is... not especially helpful at structuring the entire app.
 
9:54 PM
@Puppy Yes that's what I just said :v
 
I'm trying to draw some geometry things with tikz
 
it's pretty simple for smaller apps since you can just use component lifecycle, but for bigger apps
 
using this shit is so painful but with every new pretty formula I feel smarter
so I gotta be doing something right
 
it is however especially helpful for making a UI from a model.
 
@CatPlusPlus Its pretty opaque to me. I haven't really found any approachable references that explains the whole thing
 
9:55 PM
@AlexM. meh.
 
Because you keep throwing buzzwords around instead of fucking thinking about what you're trying to do
What "whole thing"
There's no "whole thing"
 
user1804599
use cycle.js
 
@Prismatic Because it's a lot like C++ -- there are decades of work and methods to do things. Except it's spread across different languages and version and stuff.
 
It's exactly the same as with everything else
 
@CatPlusPlus C's pretty static in its base state.
 
Ell
9:57 PM
cat you've distracted me from gentoo now I am reading about funtoo
 
It has bit better defaults
 

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