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Ell
2:00 PM
John Carmack sounds like a terrible programmer to me
but I've never seen his code
 
@Xeo I've been curious about making a kernel flavored version of C++ for awhile. Something that allows C++ to work in a kernel world, without sacrificing RAII and other useful tools
 
@Ell His Tweets certainly imply that he can't dev for shit.
 
@Ell Have you never seen the Quake 3 source? It works but from what I have seen it was not anyhow excellent.
 
@Ell he is, he uses C++ as type safe C
and people laud him for it
 
@Mgetz I think this has been done multiple times already. For Linux, Linus just did not want to see it in the code base because he is <insert expletive>。
 
2:02 PM
@Mgetz there are tons of online resources devoted to a C++ kernel thingie.
 
@wilx note: Linus didn't say the language was bad, just most of the people who use it.
 
If you live without rtti, you could allocate some memory reserved for exception storage.
 
@rubenvb you could always do something like SEH
type codes
 
nah, you need RTTI.
 
user1804599
> Reticulating splines...
 
user1804599
2:03 PM
wat
 
but the EH mechanism would have to be something other than Itanium-style
 
Ell
@rightfold sims reference
 
user1804599
mozilla must like the sims
 
@Ell hypes/knows Haskell
 
@rightfold Sims?
 
user1804599
2:03 PM
I'm building Thunderbird.
 
Ell
You could transform code using exceptions into code returning Try<> or w/e those types are called
@BartekBanachewicz so? :P
 
@rightfold ah yeah, Firefox also shows something like that.
 
@Puppy I don't think you could do proper kernel c++ with the standard as is, you need to be able to deal with things that the standard doesn't allow
 
@Ell expected?
 
Firefox might not be the best codebase about, but I still like Mozilla for various reasons.
 
Ell
2:04 PM
@Mgetz what like?
 
@Mgetz People do lots of shit the Standard doesn't allow. That never stopped them before.
 
I think one of the reasons I have found most build systems unpleasant is that they are weakly and dynamically typed -- lots of string ops.
 
@Ell tagged allocation is a pain, EH in kernel mode is a pain... the list goes on
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've heard him say that as an exercise to learn the language he rewrote Wolfenstein 3D in Haskell
 
@Ell so that's the first step being an aware dev
 
2:04 PM
I never got to tic tac toe
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok sure, I think different codebases call them different things
 
So if he is a terrible programmer, that's my dimension
 
@Mgetz What do you mean, tagged allocation?
 
Ell
I'm sure you know what I mean anyway
 
(also EH in kernel mode could be implemented in terms of return codes if you wanted to)
 
2:05 PM
@AndyProwl He probably simply put more effort in learning it. Haskell requires fresh mindset
 
@Puppy so at least on windows all allocation in kernel mode is tagged to the driver that is allocating it, that way the driver can be unloaded at runtime
 
@Ell I thought it was going to be standardized.
 
also so the kernel knows what to page in on interrupt
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think I'm more used to imperative programming than he is. He's just more clever and/or a better programmer than I am.
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok I'm not sure. I was just referring to the scalas: scala-lang.org/files/archive/nightly/docs/library/…
but you could use Either also
 
2:06 PM
@AndyProwl What, Carmack?
 
@Puppy Yes
 
the guy is a complete moron who can't tell up from down.
 
He wrote Wolfenstein 3D, I did not
 
And Doom and shit
 
2:07 PM
@AndyProwl That's... actually not that much of an accomplishment.
 
Ell
I guess it depends on your measure of "good programmer"
 
@Puppy you are certainly closer to that description to him in my book
anyway
 
the skillsets required to do that are completely different compared to the skillsets needed today.
 
how do I hack around lack of optional
 
Ell
and maybe a distinction between "programmer" and "developer" (ie, writing code vs shipping features)
 
2:08 PM
I need a quick way to return an int or not
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz write an optional? :D
(what language?)
 
@Puppy Everything's relative. Not everyone's a genius. Whatever you call him, I'm worse than him. That's pretty much all I was saying
 
@Ell C+Shit
 
Ell
why not boost::optional?
 
no boost in that project
C++11 allowed
 
Ell
2:08 PM
just copy paste it then
 
@AndyProwl All I'm saying is that your basis for measurement is completely fucked up.
 
Ell
take it out of the boost namespace
 
@Ell not worth it for a simple case
it's a 3-line change
 
Ell
it is totes worth it
 
I'm not going to introduce 300 lines of code to make my 3-line change easier
 
Ell
2:09 PM
just dynamically allocate the int then :P
 
not right now at least
 
@BartekBanachewicz bool+val
 
@Mr.kbok I was thinking that
 
Ell
or that, much better :L
tuple<bool, int>
 
Pointer out argument
 
2:09 PM
fuck out arguments.
 
Ell
or pointer out and return a bool
 
@milleniumbug ughfuck what
 
It's the textbook semantics of optional. You don't need the constructor shortcut so it's nearly 100% identical.
 
nah imma return a pair
 
@Puppy Might be. What I see is that as an exercise to learn a new language he rewrote Wolfenstein 3D in a couple days. I never got to implement a tic tac toe when I was learning that language. If that's not a valid measurement of how skilled/clever one is, I don't know what is
 
2:10 PM
it provides typesafe wrapping
@Mr.kbok yep
@Mr.kbok what's "funny" is that the class uses a boolean flag for that value already
 
@AndyProwl I'm glad that we can agree that you don't know what is.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You wanted a "quick hack" - that's what it is.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Better than returning a pair IMO.
 
@Puppy I'm not agreeing yet :) Feel free to elaborate on what is a valid measurement
 
Ell
@AndyProwl I suppose code quality
 
user1804599
2:12 PM
WTFs per minute.
 
What you lose with the pointer out argument is composability and guess what, you lose it as well with the pair.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes how is it better than the pair then
 
@BartekBanachewicz It doesn't require default construction.
 
@Ell That's one aspect, assuming my code and John Carmack's code can be compared in terms of quality
 
template <typename T> using optional = unique_ptr<T>; would be better than both IMO.
 
2:13 PM
    auto targetPos = reel->GetTargetPos();
    CLAW_ASSERT(targetPos.first);
    reel->Spin(targetPos.second);
 
It even provides a migration path to a proper optional should it exist later.
 
Considering I haven't written any interesting Haskell in my learning days, there isn't much to compare
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they reach conflatory concussions?
 
@Ell Or reference out and bool. Though I find pointer better.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes mmm
 
2:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes growing a pair is better then returning a pair
 
@AndyProwl Simple example: You ought to have figured out in less than 20 years that iterating through a linked list is slower than iterating through an array.
 
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Mr.kbok what's "funny" is that the class uses a boolean flag for that value already
what about that
std::pair<bool, uint32_t> SlotsReel::GetTargetPos() const {
    return std::make_pair( m_targetPosSet, m_targetReelPos );
}
that's what my impl looks like
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes and what does boost::optional add over that?
 
@Puppy Where does he claim otherwise?
 
Ell
@rubenvb no dynamic allocation
 
2:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz *what my impl looks like
 
@Puppy Are you confusing him with the Gratuitous Space Battles guy?
 
@rubenvb alloc
 
Or How my implementation looks
 
@rubenvb righty
 
I shudder everytime I hear that.
 
Ell
2:15 PM
@rubenvb meh, I wouldn't say this really
 
Oh, just an int? Can't you use minimum or maximum as a special value?
 
And scientists suck at English.
 
Ell
"How does your implementation look? with its eyes"
 
switched from STL list to a fixed sized array for some stuff, and speed is up by a factor of 100. I expected maybe just double :D
This?
 
@wilx that's abusing the type system
 
2:16 PM
@BartekBanachewicz \o/
 
user1804599
> To be fair, "hello world" for Haskell would involve monads, and nobody wants that.
 
user1804599
You don't need monadic operations to do hello world. :(
 
@Ell Nope, how something looks can also be used to enquire about its, well, looks.
 
user1804599
@wilx ewwww
 
user1804599
that's as terrible as cruft like nullptr
 
2:18 PM
The namespace is most likely an ADL barrier. But I'm not at the moment in the mood/don't have the time to further explain — sehe just now
free repz
 
@rightfold It's kinda like saying that adding two numbers involves square roots.
 
@rightfold To be fair, "hello world" for C++ already involves ADL and operator overloading.
 
@rightfold Retarded argument
 
@sehe But that's not really the same thing. The C++ hello world does make use of those features.
 
oh, sehe was first
 
2:19 PM
The Haskell hello world doesn't use any monad operations.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yesh
@R.MartinhoFernandes And some people argue it would be very bad if it did
 
GRFGH why do I have to declare private functions. So freaking annoying
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm, I'm sure that it was Carmack...
 
Are you simply saying there is no reason to use monads - in hello world for Haskell
 
Intrusive lists are nice
 
2:21 PM
@sehe what
 
user1804599
@sehe yes, but in haskell you don't use >>= and return in hello world.
 
user1804599
they may be used by putStrLn but that's an implementation detail
 
you use IO, not Monad instance of IO
 
user1804599
ADL in C++ hello world is actually part of the interface, not an implementation detail
 
2:21 PM
@sehe No, I'm saying that main = putStrLn "Hello, world!" doesn't use any monad operations.
 
@rightfold Well. You do use std:: and <<
 
@sehe I prefer the term "koenig barrier". It sounds science-fiction-y.
 
lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. Ikr
 
2:22 PM
5 mins ago, by rightfold
> To be fair, "hello world" for Haskell would involve monads, and nobody wants that.
 
yeah rightfold is badfold what else is new
 
Like stargate something
 
@Mr.kbok koenigsegg.com (afaik none clears the sound barrirer)
 
@sehe ... yet :3
 
user1804599
The I/O functor!
 
2:23 PM
@rightfold aw
I like it
 
user1804599
"The I/O applicative functor" sounds silly.
 
The IO Applicative also sounds nice
@rightfold haha we thought about the same thing
 
@sehe Now that's futuristic
 
Thank you @sehe unfortunately it is not taking labels in consideration. — user3101913 1 min ago
Wtf; Why can't I jsut drop the case. So much weak spot
 
user1804599
In hello world you use the I/O type constructor.
 
user1804599
2:27 PM
The I/O monadfix.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Just as wrong as what the article argues against.
 
@sehe You make much typo there.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes of course
 
It's near to making my eyes bleed.
 
it was meant as a wordplay around the "IO Monad" phrase
as, IO isn't tied to its monad instance in particular is what I was trying to show
 
2:31 PM
@rubenvb I kame chum opyt
 
I mean we say "Maybe Monad" as a shorthand for "Maybe instance for Monad typeclass", but IO has different conotations
 
user1804599
Yummy, pork.
 
@Mhmk I would assume it's because once malware is on the system reasoning about security is pointless, given that security has already been compromised. — Mgetz 1 min ago
 
user1804599
Delicious salami.
 
Maybe monad (when you don't know yet whether you'll use monads)
 
2:31 PM
Delicious chicken
 
Delicious lounge
 
@sehe wow... I mean wow. Just wow... Wow.
 
@rubenvb Happy to olbgie
 
user1804599
@sehe In Scala you can put a monad instance in an option.
 
yo dawg
 
2:32 PM
And when does the dividend pay?
 
user1804599
Some(implicitly[Monad[Option]])
 
-1 not enough maybe
 
Ven
\o
 
user1804599
type Maybe[T] = Option[T]
val Maybe = Option
 
user1804599
Problem solved!
 
2:34 PM
Some(perhaps[Implicit[Often[Option(maybe)]]])
fuzzy programming
 
user1804599
@Ven hello Ven Diagram
 
Ven
@rightfold hello right fold
 
user1804599
> John Ven, FRS, FSA (4 August 1834 – 4 April 1923) was an English logician and philosopher noted for introducing the Ven diagram, used in the fields of set theory, probability, logic, statistics, and computer science.
 
Ven
I know.
 
user1804599
Updating Gentoo is already taking like, six hours.
 
2:37 PM
guys, could you please help me with something? It's short question. If I have a class with some variables and its member function, is it a huuge mistake if I write *this.variables_of_class in body of function, instead of just variables_of_function?
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
Ven
*this_is_a_world_of_hurt
 
@KiokoKey no
 
user1804599
Because this is a pointer, so . must be ->.
 
Ven
2:38 PM
also, why dereference that field?
 
> “State monad” and “Writer monad” and “Reader monad” [and “Maybe monad”] are just as bad when abused, and you know it.
Shame on you.
 
but, I wrote *this, which is current object? :(
 
user1804599
Please demonstrate examples that actually compile.
 
@KiokoKey In C++ it's this->variable or (*this).variable
 
boy
 
2:39 PM
It's explained in your C++ book.
 
I gotta do a lot of cleaning on my flat.
 
-3
Q: Fetal error during command execution

GtxGeForceI am getting fetal error while executing the update command in C# I am using mysql database. everything is fine like insert command and delete command but when i am going to update records its show me error that is fetal error during command execution. please help me. public bool UpdateSupplier...

 
Vanilla Sky is Ubik.
 
We'll need a C++-section, stat!
 
> fetal
 
user1804599
2:40 PM
Implicit this is silly.
 
Ven
@KiokoKey *a.b is *(a.b), not (*a).b :)
 
@rightfold no it's not.
 
Ven
sigh
 
kmew? So I just need brackets?
 
You need a C++ book.
 
2:41 PM
Either brackets, or just use ->. Or don't use anything unless you really need it
 
> when abused
@R.MartinhoFernandes :/
are we all supposed to stick to pedantic formal language
 
I really need it, I had a test today :(
 
Ven
:(
 
hmm
I have to admit
I've seen a lot of lazy fucks coming in asking us to solve their problems 5 hours before they were due to be examined on those solutions
but after the examination?
 
Lojban (pronounced [ˈloʒban]) is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic, succeeding the Loglan project. The name "Lojban" is a compound formed from loj and ban, which are short forms of logji (logic) and bangu (language). The Logical Language Group (LLG) began developing Lojban in 1987. The LLG intended to realize Loglan's purposes as well as further complement the language by making it more usable, and freely available (as indicated by its official full English name "Lojban: A Realization of Loglan"). After a long initial period of debating and testing...
 
2:43 PM
not sure if uber-lazy or learn-from-mistakes
 
or maybe that
 
@KiokoKey lol no I mean, unless you really need to use this-> or (*this). (which might be the case if you're writing a template) you can just omit them
 
Ven
@Puppy means he wants to learn from mistakes!
 
@Puppy Does it matter? I'm trying to learn on my mistakes ._.
 
@KiokoKey no. it's not. but not reading your book is. please read your book.
 
2:43 PM
51 secs ago, by Puppy
not sure if uber-lazy or learn-from-mistakes
 
wtf who flagged that
 
lol who flagged that.
 
dupe hammer please:
 
lol who flagged that.
 
any other 10kers who want to ask who flagged that? just copy and paste my message instead of writing your own, it'll be easier
 
2:45 PM
that who lol flagged
 
@Puppy what do you think I did?
I didn't even see what got flagged :/
 
typed it out again.
 
sehe would never do that
 
I'm über-lazy. And never learn from that mistake
 
user1804599
Damn, I impacted my digit.
 
2:46 PM
With the wall?
 
did you turn it from a 9 to an 8?
 
why is 6 afraid of 7
 
7 8 9 very funny
 
user1804599
What are those numbers?
 
user1804599
I can only count to potato.
 
Ven
2:48 PM
PO
TA
 
user1804599
!!
 
\o/
 
@rightfold Is that a Portal 2 joke? I can't quite remember
 
Ven
Well played, @AndyProwl. Not spooky enough, @rightfold
 
2:49 PM
If the thought of staring at stuff like this all day looking for errors doesn't excite you, don't code an engine. http://t.co/lA3785oTT0
 
Ven
@sehe I can't believe Twitter's click-to-open sucks that poorly.
 
IRTA as LMT_LIGHTMAPBITCH
 
Ven
The image is even smaller than inline view
 
user1804599
@cliffski how about just "don't code an engine"?
 
@sehe looks like jolly ranchers
 
2:50 PM
@Ven always has done
 
Captain Rightfold to the rescue.
 
@Ven Works fine for me.
@EtiennedeMartel What is he captain of, precisely?
is he the captain of your mum in bed?
 
RSS Languages
 
@Puppy Oh, my mom has way more taste than that.
 
That's not what she said
 
2:53 PM
@user3101913 check the output please — sehe 26 secs ago
srsly - fuck that attitude
@AlexM. it's hard to copy without carbon. I used lots of it (fortunately in ample supply)
 
@sehe you seemed real calm about it
(serious)
 
sehe is always calm about everything
it is terrible
 
@DonLarynx I try to. But here I can vent a little
 
@Cicada That's the mix of wisdom and despair that comes with age, I guess.
 
It's the facepalmness
 
Ell
2:56 PM
I made spaghetti carbonara
 
Say without ketchup
 
Ell
Haha of course
Who makes carbonara with ketchup? :P
Inb4 @AlexM.
 
Oops. I now fixed the sample. I ran right into his trap of hardcoding vector indices
 
@Ell IKR? Who would ever put ketchup on pizza :P
 
lol
 
@Cat Greenlit
 

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