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5:01 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes You're arguing that since you've created a function with a bug that neither form of testing is likely to find quickly/easily, that the form of testing Andy's advocating is useless. It's nonsense and you know it.
 
so how's Loungers on this day?
 
@JerryCoffin I'm not.
 
@TonyTheLion tired
 
@sehe same here actually.
but I've been up since 5 am
so I suppose that makes sense
 
I thought I was being careful enough to only oppose this idea that it gives you guarantees about all possible inputs. If I slipped at some point, I apologise; that was a mistake.
 
5:02 PM
It gives you nipple salads
 
It gives you better guarantees that your algorithm is implemented correctly than state-based verification, or black-box verification to please Cat
And it allows to test your units in more fine-grained isolation
 
Don't please Cat, he's funnier when he's not pleased
Sorry Cat :(
 
No it doesn't, it's completely unrelated
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes In that case you'd better work on doing a better job of explaining what you are arguing. Things like:
12 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
You can make educated guesses that it might work in other cases as well, but that's not the same as "guaranteeing" nor "verifying" them.
 
It's p clear
 
5:04 PM
@TonyTheLion Seems I didn't please him
 
@JerryCoffin What's wrong there?
 
So fun is safe
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...used as an argument against some form of testing seem to be arguments for requiring that the form of testing he's advocating do what's been known impossible for decades, or else it's useless.
 
Anyway, I think Jerry nailed the coffin closed on this argument
:P
 
5:05 PM
pun time?
 
I have no problem with doing loose coupling and I never do whitebox testing #woah
 
@JerryCoffin Why do you insist on adding "or else it's useless"?
 
@AndyProwl I felt like a pun
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because that seems to be your argument. If it's not, your argument seems to be nothing more than "no form of testing can guarantee the absence of bugs."
 
My software always has bugs
 
5:07 PM
@JerryCoffin Which seems a perfectly fine argument to me, given that someone seemed to be arguing that some form of testing could.
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't understand what's your point about coupling. Behavior-based verification just exploits loose coupling to hijack communication between different units.
Instead, it seems to me you guys are saying that doing behavior-based verification is somehow a manifestation of high coupling
I don't understand
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay, if that's your argument, how about a quick poll of the direct statement?
 
Those stupid terms god
5 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
And it allows to test your units in more fine-grained isolation
 
Is anybody actually arguing that there's any form of testing in which passing some test can guarantee an absence of bugs?
 
All right, I'd better leave this conversation so I don't hurt your feelings with stupid terms
 
5:09 PM
@JerryCoffin only formal proof of implementation, I'm going to say. And that's not really testing.
 
It's not whitebox testing that allows you to do that, it's loose coupling
 
@DeadMG Agree completely.
 
user1804599
Meh, “whitebox.”
 
user1804599
I prefer “translucentbox.”
 
Also I don't get how blackbox is state-based verification and whitebox is the other one
 
5:11 PM
@JerryCoffin Maybe Andy didn't meant that, but to me "guarantee the algorithm will work for all possible inputs/outputs" seems just like another formulation of that statement.
 
Those fucking terms are so goddamn stupid
 
@CatPlusPlus Black box only lets you look at the input and output state. White box lets you look at (some subset of) the behavior that transforms a given input state to a given output state.
 
"State" sounds like implementation details to me
And "behaviour" is observable
See, ambiguous. Stupid. I'm glad I never heard them before
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe so--but if so (given that Andy's given reasonable evidence he's not a complete idiot or ignoramus) I think it's fair to assume that's from trying to state things in a way that fit in a chat message instead of writing a book.
 
Jerry's rule #1 - up your level of English if you want to make a point
 
5:15 PM
@CatPlusPlus The point is how you observe it. Do you observe the side-effects of invoking a function (and/or its return value), or do you observe the invocation itself without actually triggering the invoked function and all its side-effects? In the first case you must express conditions on the value (state) of some objects (possibly the returned object), in the second case you must hijack the function call.
I don't think it's stupid
Or ambiguous
It's totally well-defined
 
@CatPlusPlus State is static. Behavior is dynamic. Black box testing looks at a function statically--i.e., essentially as if N inputs defined an N-dimensional array and the result is just a matter of looking up the proper result in that table. White box testing allows you to look at the action taken inside the function to get from input(s) to output.
 
testing is boring
lets move on
 
Then call it static/dynamic (it's still dumb)
 
testing after the fact is boring
 
so I got topic of my assignment on uni
3DES implementation
gonna do it in haskell
 
5:18 PM
All I can find that uses those terms seems to be connected to ~~patterns~~ so I'm not surprised
 
@TonyTheLion Actually, when I was a kid in school, I rather enjoyed taking tests (probably because I was much better at it than all the parts that required social interaction and such).
 
@CatPlusPlus You seem to be the only person here that has trouble participating in the discussion because of the terms used.
 
No I just think those terms are really bad
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion main functions and debugging are boring.
 
I've said all I had to say on the topic
 
5:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Congratulations, you've progressed from insanity to total insanity. :-)
 
@JerryCoffin why? I think that Haskell is well suited for this
I have to provide an UI, but I will do it in either Qt or some C# thing and load the exported algorithm as C library
 
@rightfold Programming is boring
 
user1804599
Go do something else then. vOv
 
@CatPlusPlus Behavior-based vs state-based is about the technique/approach you choose to verify the behavior of some piece of SW. Patterns are about how you design that piece of SW. Although there are relationships between the two things (which might explain the co-presence of the terms in what you've read), I believe the notions are quite independent.
 
@rightfold I'm terrible at everything else.
 
5:21 PM
@AndyProwl I mean people who use them
 
user1804599
But you’re also terrible at programming.
 
user1804599
So why do you not either do nothing at all or everything at once?
 
And I'm really only talking about terms themselves right now
(Fuck design patterns also)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I was thinking more about about doing something in a way where you might learn, as opposed to just taking the safest route you can to finishing the assignment on time. Lest I be misunderstood: insanity isn't always a bad thing.
 
"remote: error: refusing to update checked out branch: refs/heads/array" is annoying as heck.
I should be able to force this without sshing into the remote.
 
Oh is 'testing' still rumbling on? I need a drink.
 
I pronounce "sshing" as /lɒɡɪŋ/
 
user1804599
I need a project.
3
 
Wide
 
5:32 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes found it already of course
@JerryCoffin heh
@melak47 up for a game?
 
> else
 
@rightfold Go make a CPython interpreter using Brainfuck.
 
@MartinJames No, it's (finally) pretty much wound down (a good 5 minutes ago, at least).
 
user1804599
You cannot do that.
 
5:35 PM
@JerryCoffin Oh good - I was getting lonely and had to resort to work.
 
@MartinJames Oh, horrors!
 
@MartinJames Oh you poor sod
 
What happened to Bailey?
 
@JerryCoffin It's worse than you imagine - documentation:((
 
Or is it not good company?
 
5:37 PM
@MartinJames Oh no! I'd recommend that we hold a funeral for the time you wasted, but there's probably not enough of your brain left to understand its significance.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Him. Bailey is a "him".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think he's still under the table, hiding from Anne. She got sick of the Excel shit she was doing and decided to play a game instead. After ten mins getting into it, it AV'd.
 
@DeadMG I... was trying to be insulting? ; P
 
well
in that case you can accurately insult him
 
> ; P
^ dat space
 
5:39 PM
I like subtlety, you fuckwit.
CAKE
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's certainly subtle--like a brick upside the head!
 
user1804599
sgrep looks cool.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's why you don't push to non-bare repos
 
@GamesBrainiac CPython make a Brainfuck interpreter using Go.
 
user2286243
Can I insult anyone here?
 
5:40 PM
Only if you're a subtle asshole.
 
@VarunAgw Most of us are thick enough skinned that it's not easy, but I s'pose you can try.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm learning Go right now, actually :)
 
I'm still trying to think of a way to atone for winning my own 'Vladspotter' competition. I could sponsor another game jam and offer beer or a meal, but that would be unfair on those who cannot make Berlin:(
 
Xeo
@MartinJames you should put on a vlad costume for Berlin
 
@MartinJames I wanted to make Berlin, but couldn't:
make: *** No rule to make target 'berlin'. Stop.
 
5:43 PM
Premature Enter accident
 
@MartinJames Pay the victor all your life savings
 
user2286243
I thought it is some magic place where you can insult anyone without get trouble
 
Xeo
@DeadMG err
 
Not sure what a 'Vlad costume' might be. I assume a bottle of vodka would be involved.
 
Xeo
@VarunAgw no?
 
5:44 PM
@VarunAgw People will plonk you, ignore your pointless insults, and move on
 
Only if your insults are magical
 
Why would you even want to insult random people
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin That's just a case of you sucking. That command should've booked tickets and a hotel for June 7th.
 
Are you a dick wizard?
 
user2286243
ok stop now
 
5:44 PM
@VarunAgw You can try to insult people, but it's not easy. Getting in trouble...well, it's a little like a bar I used to go to with a sign on a wall that read: "Sexual harassment is not prosecuted here. It is, however, rated on a scale of 1 to 10". Anything below a 3 can get you in trouble.
 
user2286243
I was joking..blame the description of group
 
very funny
 
ah, I didn't even notice that
 
@VarunAgw Insults of many kinds are quite acceptable, but don't accuse anyone of being a PHP guru.
 
now it does at least make some sense
 
5:45 PM
Hint: you're not the only one joking
The description is also a joke
 
@MartinJames well, LRIO kinda is ^^
 
Xeo
@ScarletAmaranth No, he is a PHP repwhore, that's different
 
@ScarletAmaranth Yeah, but I would never discuss it in public:)
 
@ScarletAmaranth I give that a 7.3.
 
Typing while eating delicious cake accident
 
5:47 PM
Crumbs!
 
There's a pun in there
 
@JerryCoffin decent enough, it's like telling fat people they're fat
I mean, duh, yet still somewhat offensive!
Lounge<C++> - where PHP knowledge makes you fat
2
 
Check your privilege
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thin (client) privilege.
 
I checked mine and it's still here
 
Lounge<C++> - where PHP knowledge makes you bulimic
 
I am now sure how one obtains PHP knowledge in first place
 
I think the lady in the bakery is in love with me. She offered me a second slice of cake for free. There's no other explanation
 
@ScarletAmaranth It's injected. A form of rape.
 
5:51 PM
@ScarletAmaranth Rohypnol in drink, then the knowledge is downloaded into your brain while you cannot resist.
 
@JerryCoffin aah, that would explain a lot actually
 
What knowledge
 
I mean, PHP people do exhibit signs of having been raped
 
by PHP's terribleness
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes TMINAE
 
5:53 PM
too much is not an error?
 
'Type Mismatch'
 
hahaha
 
tit masticating is not an error?
 
That sounds wrong
 
I concur.
 
5:54 PM
yup, the types get unified based on the "close enough" rule
 
but when you've got "Is not an error" at the end and only TM to work with
 
user1804599
I want to make software in Perl.
 
Tit munching?
 
tit mammogramming
 
Sounds a lot less... cannibalistic
@Dea not enough 'm's
 
5:55 PM
I think that some women would indeed agree that tit mammogramming is not an error.
 
@MartinJames s/knowledge/codified ignorance/
 
If there's going to be a vote on the logo, @Jefffrey is gna win hands down! :)
 
I wouldn't be so sure
 
Kaolinite is the very best one
 
well I know that not all studies show benefits from mammogram programs
 
5:56 PM
who made Kaolinite anyway?
 
I see an interesting fight between minimalism and coolness
 
AH! Now I find out where all the minerals came from earlier.
 
tit minimalism is not an error?
 
@Scarlet check wiki
 
@MartinJames You mined them with a probe? And now you need a pylon?
 
5:57 PM
Why on earth are we tittyfying everything today?
 
oo, melak
 
@DeadMG Tit maximalism is not an error (either).
 
@melak47 nice logo
 
user1804599
@GamesBrainiac s/today/titay/
 
5:58 PM
@JerryCoffin it sometimes is
 
@GamesBrainiac Someone posted the acronym TMINAE.
and given the obvious inference for INAE you're only left with TM to speculate as to what they could stand for.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Well, truly maximal I'd agree. But reasonably large isn't necessarily bad.
 
facepalm
 
Inevitably, tits crept in.
 
5:59 PM
Lounge<C++> - where the acronym INAE makes sense to pretty much everybody
4
@JerryCoffin yup, we've come to an agreement
 
user1804599
@ScarletAmaranth I’m not an expert.
2
 
@Martin I thought they had a tendency to creep out
 

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