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9:00 PM
no u
Did it say "@LightnessRacesinOrbit:"? I don't think so. — striving_coder 30 secs ago
lol
 
why are you being an ass lighty?
 
cpx
This worked for me.
 
@Jefffrey I'm not?
 
he is clearly new and eager to get reputation and you have 134k and you can't let him have some?
 
Hello, ladies and gentlemen
 
9:11 PM
you bad person
 
@Jefffrey What do you mean "can't let him have some"? How am I preventing him from having rep?
here comes Dead "Flagger" MG again
 
lol
 
@Jefffrey :( seriously
 
what?
 
9:12 PM
Hello Mr McDonald
 
flagged
 
it's a joke between me and him
 
not seriously to you, seriously it was flagged?
 
@rlemon I guess someone thought that "you selfish cunt" was not appropriate language in a professional programming community.
 
@Jefffrey no need to be a dick, I was asking "seriously, why would someone flag the post I'm referencing"
 
9:12 PM
edits are the most beautiful thing
 
@rlemon I've informed you as to why.
 
@rlemon a dick?
 
lol here we go
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yea I was responding to his pre-edit message
 
are trying to say that I'm a dick?
should I be offended?
 
9:13 PM
@Jefffrey are you a cock lobster?
 
because I certainly feel offended
 
@rlemon Well it's quite clearly inappropriate language.
 
cool story.
 
also, what is "dick"?
 
9:13 PM
I come to lounge and see @rlemon
 
I'm 13 and I don't know the word
 
@BartekBanachewicz flags bring me here
 
user1804599
> I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended.
 
Jefffrey being 13 I would believe
 
Linus once spoke of professional pretension
 
9:14 PM
@rlemon Be honest. You love it here.
 
user1804599
My favourite trollvalds quote.
 
@rlemon uh just because someone called someone else a selfish cunt?
c'mon.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit tis why I lurk 24/7
 
@RonaldMunodawafa no, that was hypertension
 
user1804599
What is being flagged?
 
9:14 PM
@rlemon called it
@rightføld Nothing
 
@rlemon <3
 
don't kick @Jefffrey he's a traitor and a bad person but we love him nonetheless
also code mentoring was fun
 
also, FTR in the flag queue all I saw was "you bad person" being flagged
 
oh god
why are traitor
 
user1804599
He's better than you are.
 
user1804599
9:15 PM
@rlemon lol
 
user1804599
People who flag that must have really miserable and boring lives.
 
@rightføld they must be bad people
 
@Jefffrey you accepted Clojure
 
user1804599
Clojure is nice.
 
lol
 
9:16 PM
@Jefffrey well you're technically supposed to fuck cunts
 
I barely know Clojure
 
@rightføld It was edited.
 
I just met her once or twice
 
yes, yes, "I barely know her"
 
it's nothing serious
 
9:16 PM
@Jefffrey there we go
 
I swear
 
user1804599
You should meet me.
 
There are now so many languages that I only learn the conceptually different ones and the ones which would not take time to learn quickly
 
user1804599
But don't tell Alex.
 
9:17 PM
we are a sassy bunch, eh
 
@rightføld I'm meeting you in September remember
 
and here it comes griwes
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz why
 
releasing all the tension
 
@rightføld because why not
 
user1804599
9:17 PM
oh right
 
user1804599
I remember
 
@Griwes There are such warnings on Tim Hortons coffee cups.
 
don't run out of the country
 
user1804599
holy shit it's november already adn i still haven't told mom fuckfuckfuck
 
9:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, btw: have you read the stuff from yesterday?
 
@rightfold And November Rain is playing on VH1
 
because if you haven't you can also save yourself the time
 
oh hi @EtiennedeMartel you weren't there for quite some time I was so eager to tell you I'm a game developer now and ask for some ideas and
@Jefffrey meaning?
 
@rightføld It's December in 3 days hth
 
user1804599
@RonaldMunodawafa What is November Rain and what is VH1?
2
 
9:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Hmmm?
 
@BartekBanachewicz apparently one is not able to create signals by themselves so they are pretty much useless
except for native stuff of course
 
@EtiennedeMartel dunno if you noticed I've changed jobs
@Jefffrey uh
 
@EtiennedeMartel He wants to know what native gamedevs drink to stay sane
 
so what am I to make of it then
@rightføld told what
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey see kill(2)
 
9:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No, I didn't. Haven't been very active on here recently.
 
@rightfold November Rain is a popular Guns N' Roses ballad while VH1 is an MTV pseudoretrochannel
 
@EtiennedeMartel yeah so.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Shame on you
 
@CatPlusPlus I consume beer regularly. Typically IPAs and stouts, depending on my mood.
 
9:20 PM
@BartekBanachewicz you use it for signals that are provided by the library (mouse position, windows dimensions, framerate, mouse and buttons presses, etc...)
 
lol TV
 
user1804599
I only program and play MGS and Factorio
 
user1804599
How the fuck am I supposed to know anything other than those things?
 
@Jefffrey I suppose Glisha Hate2d is going to stay withing regular model then.
 
@rightføld because you are @rightføld and you know everything
 
9:21 PM
or maybe I'm not understand their FRP view
or something
 
That being said, I'm not really a game developer. I work mostly on our tools, and sometimes on our engine. I don't do crunching, I don't deal with producers, and I'm surrounded by competent people.
 
because not even elm (the js library it takes inspiration from) allows you to specify signals
AFAIK
@BartekBanachewicz if you provide: filled color $ square 30 level of abstraction, I'm all yours
I'm a bitch like that wrt higher levels
 
@Jefffrey So have you looked at love2d api finally or not :S. Because I'm really going to do 1:1
 
@BartekBanachewicz I did some time ago
when you linked it to me
 
9:24 PM
@EtiennedeMartel yeah, I wanted to ask about tools. And specifically asset creation. I wrote a tool for some assets but our assets process is terrible
 
but now I don't remember how it is
gimme a sec
 
@Jefffrey dead simple.
 
also I was thinking
 
@BartekBanachewicz Sure, what do you want to know?
 
how do you usually manage things like: "when something is placed down, let's play some dust-explosion animation" thing that you see in Factorio for example?
 
9:25 PM
My Dad is going to get me a set of MCU's and he wants me to learn machine code and program the MCU's. I don't even know the basic structure of asm to begin with. What should I do
 
Do you set a flag in some model and then use it to render the dust or do you set a trigger that get's called everytime an object is placed down?
 
@Jefffrey The typical abstraction is to place a particle emitter there and animate its spawn rate (the rate at which particles are created).
 
@Griwes What sort of madman puts pizza in the fridge?!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Apparently Canadians.
 
@RonaldMunodawafa Panic seems like a reasonable plan.
 
9:27 PM
@Griwes :(
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The "madman" part checks out.
 
panic(@RonaldMunodawafa)
 
@Jefffrey Although that's for 3D stuff. Might be a bit too needlessly complicated for 2D games.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's how it's rendered, no?. What I mean is how should the renderer know that the object is newly placed there?
 
9:28 PM
Queue the animation to play at that location
 
@Jefffrey It has a transform?
 
A transform?
 
Also, do you know how particle emitters work?
 
For example, if you have your own inhouse build tool for stuff like packing textures into atlases, or if you use makefiles... We use bat scripts that rebuild everything each time and that's awful :/

Also stuff (if you can share that) like formats; we use IVF, PVR+/PNG as a fallback; maybe there are better ones.
 
It doesn't need to be tied to any object at all
 
9:28 PM
We're really desperate when it comes to assets :/
 
No, guys.
Wait.
 
(we as devs)
@Jefffrey you add an emitter
 
@MartinJames on a serious note, how did people ever write anything by just starring at instruction sets
 
@BartekBanachewicz When I first came in, we used MSBuild for that, but it was a pain. We have a custom build system now that manages stuff like incremental building and dependencies.
 
@Jefffrey when you add an object, you add a graphical representation of it to the graphics manager.
Point being, it has to get its share in the draw routine.
 
9:29 PM
It serves as the entry point to our asset pipeline.
 
And then get an animation manager and a timeline manager and then manage to play an animation
 
@EtiennedeMartel What's it written in? I started sketching something like that in C#, but I wanted a GUI that allows previews and shows asset state and possibly integrates with SVN; I'm not sure if it makes sense and/or is necessary/helpful.
 
The problem is not how to play the animation. The problem is: the logic operates only on models (data like: player is at x, y or its velocity is (+4, +4), etc. So the flow is: input -> logic which modifies game state models -> render of the game state (all the models). So the renderer only has the last snapshot of the models state. It doesn't know if an object is placed in this frame or in some other frames.
 
@Jefffrey oh you mean in a functional approach?
 
9:31 PM
@RonaldMunodawafa In stages, like any other complex problem.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I guess.
 
@BartekBanachewicz C#. We're actually looking about running it on Mono so that we can launch asset builds on a Mac.
 
@Jefffrey then you just dump the whole logic state into the "viewmodel" of rendering.
 
But that's just for the "building" part.
 
@EtiennedeMartel oh. Why, if I may ask? We tend to avoid Macs till the last second (i.e. iOS builds)
 
9:32 PM
@BartekBanachewicz That's the opposite of separation of concerns. You are basically mixing everything together.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because it would be cool if we could do the entire iOS build on the Mac.
 
@Jefffrey you're really not. Game state is read-only from the point of graphical viewmodel
 
Meh models. FRP deals with continuous time and events, just have an event that occurs at the same time that the object is placed
 
As of now, we build the assets separately and copy its output to a Mac.
 
@Martin How long did it take you to learn a machine language
 
9:32 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I see
 
@BartekBanachewicz but logic operates on both
view and model
 
MVVM!
(I know I don't understand this thing for shit but still)
 
so for the placing action you are changing both model and view
 
Have a model, view, viewmodel and modelview and modelmodel and viewview
That should provide adequate separation
 
But anyway. The input to that is either created through our 3ds Max exporter plugin (but we're really thinking about just switching to FBX), or in another tool we made.
 
9:33 PM
lol
 
@RonaldMunodawafa Not that long, but I had an assembler and linker already.
 
So the build itself has no GUI.
 
@Jefffrey also you'll have to accept that gamedev produces shitty code in those scenarios
@EtiennedeMartel mhm. Would you want a GUI there?
 
@MartinJames I won' t have that :-(
 
Not necessary.
 
9:34 PM
Or that you're just too bad at the concept to come up with an elegant solution :v
 
I though things were like: logic :: Input -> GameState -> GameState and render :: GameState -> IO ()
 
Just log stuff as text.
 
@CatPlusPlus yeah well it's typically not worth it. And look who's telling you that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I hope you have been reading everything MS says about MVVM because...
 
GameState can have pending animations
 
9:34 PM
GameState doesn't know about animations
 
Your artists only care if the build passed, and your devs want to know what to fix so that it passes.
 
GameState doesn't know anything about graphics
 
Nobody cares about the actual state of the build.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I thought that with GUI it would be easy to e.g. trigger rebuild of one atlas
 
It only knows about entities in an abstract world.
 
9:35 PM
Animations are concretely tied with events that happen in the game world
So whatever you can have pending events
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's handled by the incremental build.
 
@EtiennedeMartel should be. What if I want to trigger manual partial rebuild?
 
@CatPlusPlus But then everything is mixed together.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Just re-run the build.
 
9:35 PM
What is mixed together
 
Models and View.
 
The user doesn't need to know what needs to be rebuilt.
 
and Logic.
 
Not really no
 
The actual workflow is: mash a button, get a result.
 
9:36 PM
@RonaldMunodawafa It is not practical today to program a controller from 'nothing'. They don't have the required banks of switches, lamps and store/load toggles:) You NEED support from a development system.
 
In fact, what is not mixed together?
 
@Jefffrey he meant more general GameState
 
Yeah
 
you'll need that anyway in some TVar
 
Models are not completely removed from view requirements
Otherwise the entire system is useless
 
9:37 PM
then you can use (my) hoisting to narrow that
@Jefffrey you could add Writer monad to that to allow queuing effects' events
 
@MartinJames My Dad is going to use some of his old projects from the 60's and 70's
 
I know it's not going to happen, but if you suddenly decide to have a CLI instead of a 2D game, then you have to change Models, Views and Logic.
 
Not really
 
That proves that rendering impregnates everywhere.
 
"Object placed at moment t0" is not tied to any particular view
 
9:38 PM
@Jefffrey not really
@EtiennedeMartel hm.
 
Besides if you want to change views then your models need to have enough information for all the views you might want to use
 
The thing we learned, at least when it comes to asset management, is that things must be as automatic as possible.
 
@CatPlusPlus "Animation is at frame 5 of 18" is tied to a particular view.
 
Even if you don't go with general "event" but with an animation queue, it's still not tied to any view if you just queue a view-agnostic animation ID
 
Btw how did game developers in the 90's squeeze PS games into 2 MB of RAM?
 
9:39 PM
@Jefffrey No
 
Your game devs don't want to bother with the details. They just want to get their data in the game.
 
@CatPlusPlus why not?
 
Why do you think it is?
 
The CLI view doesn't need a 18 frames animation.
Only the 2D view does.
 
Besides that doesn't have to be part of the model, view can have its own state
 
9:40 PM
And the 3D view needs a 49 frames animation with 3D objects.
 
You still can have animations in the model
 
@RonaldMunodawafa Lightweight controllers are developed today with a development board, a JTAG debugger and a development system running on a PC. This enables you to compile/assemble software, download it to the controller and test/debug it. Don't try to do anything lower-level than that - the chances are that you will not get anything working at all.
 
1 min ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Even if you don't go with general "event" but with an animation queue, it's still not tied to any view if you just queue a view-agnostic animation ID
 
I don't understand you view.
Pun not intended.
 
What's not to understand? You can't ditch data you need to render just because of some stupid idea of MVC purity
 
9:41 PM
It's not stupid.
And it's not MVC.
 
WHATEVER
 
It's simply: keep things separated.
Which is the building block of programming basically.
 
You can have view-agnostic models without compromising on discarding information that's not optional
 
@MartinJames the problem is I don't have a choice over that. He is adamant about writing programs on sheets of paper and debugging them on paper. AND then when I have proven that the program won't crash and is correct I can load it onto the controller
 
You keep saying that you can, but I don't see how.
 
9:43 PM
If you need to play animations on a timeline then timeline is not optional regardless of what magical kind of view you might want to plug there
 
@CatPlusPlus The view state will handle the timeline.
And animations.
 
@RonaldMunodawafa Proving that a program will not crash on paper is imp.. er... 'very, very difficult'.
 
And view will magically come up with the necessary stuff on its own
 
@MartinJames impossible is the word you are looking for. I need to get a book on dynamic logic. :-(
 
It will take the necessary informations from the GameState that it needs to render.
 
9:44 PM
lol
 
What's funny?
 
@Jefffrey write an example code, really
otherwise we can debate shitty patterns all day
 
I agree
 
A simplistic vision.
Now the problem is: the draw function needs to figure out if an object was placed down this frame (placeObj was called)
 
9:56 PM
Make objects [(Time, Object)], store current time in GameState, stamp every object, update at the end of the frame
Or frame number or whatever
 
A silly solution that keeps stuff separated would be to have that Object has a Bool flag that identifies if an object was placed in this frame. At every frame we set this flag to False for every existing object.
 
Or have events (Time, Event) and Event has PlacedObject
 
@CatPlusPlus Time?
 
Time, Int, whatever
 
I only have the delta time. And that's not unique.
 
9:57 PM
Doesn't matter
You can maintain current time from deltas
 
Ok, right.
 
Really whatever
Or it can just be frame number
 
That's basically the same as the boolean thingy.
 
Events list is more generic
(Plus you don't have to do touch every object)
 
So, events would go into the game state?
Makes sense.
I would need to use an Integer for the frame number though.
 

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