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3:00 PM
@melak47 hacks
 
(Hint: you should not use std::cout to match the earlier examples.)
 
@melak47 That's because of whatever encoding you're using.
 
my system locale is not german or anything.
 
@LucDanton quite, you have that option.
 
@melak47 nice use of \201 in the filename
 
3:00 PM
So uh yes, there are European languages where the same letter can have several accented variations. lol.
 
@LucDanton Most of them?
 
@LucDanton you're thinking of Vietnamese. We have them to thank for that Zalgo mess.
 
Does that mean that accents can really feel and taste exotic for an English speaker? What's your take @thecoshman?
 
@CatPlusPlus what should I be using :/
 
English have accents, too.
@melak47 int main() { "\209"; } duh
 
3:02 PM
@CatPlusPlus Only imported.
 
@CatPlusPlus and how is that going to output anything
 
They're just a pain in the ass when there's not a key on the keyboard.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes French has the tilde! I think!
 
@LucDanton to me, they are random bits of shit. Some words have them, but it's more or less just for show. Words like 'blonde' I think is meant to have an accent on the e. And 'resume' but no one cares, nor do we say the words any differently
 
3:03 PM
@LucDanton Hm, what do you mean?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Given the history of English, how do you distinguish between "imported" and otherwise? Or to put it slightly differently, which pieces of English would you say were not "imported" (and can you provide justification for that?)
 
Portuguese has the tilde as well. And Spanish.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think some imported words are supposed to have them. But nobody bothers.
 
to me, 'doe' and 'doé' are said exactly the same
 
@LucDanton Ah. Can you give an example?
Something from Spanish perhaps?
 
3:04 PM
@CatPlusPlus yeah, but not on words we created our selves, nor do we really care for them, they carry no real meaning
 
el bano
 
@thecoshman Ah, I see. That's exactly what I was wondering about, thanks. It would not be inaccurate to treat 'é' and 'e' as different, unrelated letters when learning French for instance. And 'blondé' doesn't exist.
 
pinata
 
@thecoshman No, "blonde" isn't supposed to have an accent.
 
like I said, accents are there just for show in English :P
 
3:05 PM
@thecoshman What.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ya, cañon is suggested as a possible spelling. (On an unrelated note even in French mode my tilde key isn't a dead key.)
 
@thecoshman And then you complain about Americans butchering your language. You get what you pay for.
 
@CatPlusPlus in English, é is treated exactly like e, the accent is there for show
 
é è ê ë î ï à â ù ç
 
@thecoshman But 'resume' is just confusing then.
 
3:06 PM
@thecoshman It's not for show.
 
@thecoshman not really
 
You don't say "resumé" as "resume".
 
Resume and resumé are read differently.
 
@LucDanton No it isn't. Context is more than enough to differentiate them.
 
And it shows where the accent is.
 
3:07 PM
@EtiennedeMartel ü is still possible ! Wait no, it's possible now, sorry.
 
Curriculum vitae.
 
Naïve.
 
@LucDanton Indeed. Just fucking rare.
 
but the English have just stolen the odd word here and there, American's have done horrible horrible things
 
@thecoshman They're not entirely for show. For example, without the accent you're sometimes left guessing whether the word is meant to be "resume" or "resume'". The accent removes the (possible) confusion. Yes, you can usually guess which is intended pretty easily, but not always (and even when it's pretty obvious, you are really guessing).
 
3:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus that's because it's spelt résumé (per Wikipedia, anyway)
 
@LucDanton context makes it work
 
@thecoshman Right.
 
I would bet my left ball that English words with accents are borrowed from other languages.
 
For instance, in older english stuff you'd have an accent grave (don't know the right name) on -ed to indicated pronunciation and keep meter.
 
@thecoshman to be fair the English stole an entire language piece by piece
 
3:08 PM
Btw it's mêlée.
 
@Flexo at least we didn't kill it :P
 
I'm having so much fun right now.
 
@LucDanton I prefer meal
 
@Flexo I wouldn't say that. They created an entire language, and helped themselves to a couple bits of vocab, nothing more.
 
Fear my diacritical marks!
 
3:08 PM
@LucDanton I assume you mean the word akin to 'close combat fighting'
 
@thecoshman Ya.
 
@LucDanton Correction, it's Mêlée Island.
 
hums SCUMM bar music
 
@EtiennedeMartel Aha, you'd be surpriséd!
 
3:10 PM
I think you would have to come up with a really contrived sentence in English to make accents mandatory
 
> Sometimes diacritics are even added to imported words that originally didn't have any, often to distinguish them from common English words or to assist in proper pronunciation; maté from Spanish mate and animé are examples of these.
 
@thecoshman I like the word "resume". Does that count as really contrived?
@ecatmur Oh god, why.
 
I remember on a webpage that was advocating the careful use of accents for uppercase letters (related to the French layout, don't ask) such ambiguous phrases as LE FOUTRE C'EST SALE. I did not expect that.
 
awww
 
3:12 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes
 
@LucDanton Hahahahaha.
But it's not really ambiguous.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Honestly I don't remember the other examples. That one alone I find convincing enough.
@EtiennedeMartel Why not?
 
Because both are true.
 
Why wouldn't you use accents for uppercase letters?
 
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell.
 
3:13 PM
awwwww
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because "Étienne" is ugly. "Etienne" is not.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes French layout keyboards have a notorious lack of dead key for the acute accent. Yes, acute. Not grave, that one is fine (although somewhat hard to find).
 
Erm.
@LucDanton Woah. Isn't acute the most common?
 
Yep. I have a dead key for each of the other ones.
 
Man, your layout is braindead-ish.
Not as bad as the old Portuguese layout though.
 
3:15 PM
I only like English Qwerty layout
fuck everything else
 
@EtiennedeMartel I don't mind accented uppercase.
 
HCESAR (pronounced by saying the name of the letter H and then the word César: in Portuguese, agá-César) is an obsolete typewriter keyboard layout. It was created by decree on July 21, 1937, by Portuguese prime minister António de Oliveira Salazar. It was common that the 0 numeral was omitted (in favour of using the uppercase O letter), and there were also some typewriters without the 1 numeral (with the lowercase L being used to achieve it). Also absent were symbols such as the exclamation mark (achieved by typing an apostrophe and overwriting it with a period using the backspace key), ...
> It was common that the 0 numeral was omitted (in favour of using the uppercase O letter)
 
@TonyTheLion qwerty is shit, by design
 
Luckily they dropped that shit when computers came.
 
I have keys that are dead, as in, they don't work :(
 
3:16 PM
@thecoshman not quite by design, but yeah..it's not exactly a great layout
 
@cHao no it is by design. it design to make it hard to typist to type so fast that they jam the machines
ergo, shit by design
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You Portugeses are really messed up sometimes.
 
shit is also shit by design
 
@thecoshman nah. it was designed to maximize the space between commonly used letters, in order to reduce the likelihood of two hammers right next to each other being hit near simultaneously and colliding. it wasn't intended to slow people down; that's a side effect :P
 
Meh, I don't need to type any faster.
 
3:17 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Was that during the great Portuguese typewriter key shortage of 1937?
 
@KeithLayne lol, no. The dictator dude at the time was all about nationalism and decided we needed our very own keyboard layout (his motto was Proudly alone), so he created that abomination.
 
I wonder when that Professor will respond
 
French layout only has the 1234...0 digits available on shift btw. Not convenient when programming (which encourages switching to QWERTY I suppose, so silver lining).
 
@TonyTheLion so the email was actually sent?
 
3:19 PM
outstanding.
 
@RadekSlupik sent it
we haven't seen that vacuum all day
 
@cHao fairly sure slowing down typists was a design goal, I could be wrong, or wording it badly, but fairly sure that's the deal
any way, time to rock and roll
 
@thecoshman They could just cool down the rooms where the typing took place.
 
The dudes in my lab excuse their shitty code as "research code". I think many academics just never learn to program for shit.
 
QWERTY () is the most common modern-day keyboard layout. The name comes from the first six letters (keys) appearing in the top left letter row of the keyboard, read left to right: Q-W-E-R-T-Y. The QWERTY design is based on a layout created for the Sholes and Glidden typewriter and sold to Remington in the same year, when it first appeared in typewriters. It became popular with the success of the Remington No. 2 of 1878, and remains in use on electronic keyboards due to the network effect of a standard layout and a belief that alternatives fail to provide very significant advantages. Hi...
 
3:22 PM
Belgium has only 1 Bronze medal in Olympics so far :(
 
@Tony hi.
Sent it??
 
> A popular myth is that QWERTY was designed to "slow down" typists though this is incorrect – it was designed to prevent jams[4] while typing at speed, allowing typists to type faster.
 
Ooh wait. Nvm ;)
 
@RadekSlupik dat email
 
3:22 PM
Still haven't got a response, though.
 
@LucDanton Yeah and that alt to get backslash and braces is terrible too
 
Oh wait right. He lives in te US&A.
 
Egads, yes.
 
meh, my internet connection keeps cutting off
 
I need to use AltGr for curly and square braces.
 
3:24 PM
Download a better Internet connection.
 
I used to be trained with an English layout, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Aye, though you may find ctrl+alt easier to use
 
@Xeo Hm. No, I don't.
That means using both hands.
 
I use a QWERTY layout regardless of the keyboard I have. Who looks at the keys anyway ?
 
Non-English layout keyboards must die. Special keys for things like ø are acceptable in languages where those characters are very common, but the other things must be te same.
 
3:26 PM
@kbok I use a QWERTY layout as well. I don't look at keys as well. You need to be more specific.
@RadekSlupik What other things? How do I type accents on an English layout?
Also, keyboard layouts are pretty harmless.
 
Dutch keyboards have < and > on the same key, for example.
 
@RadekSlupik Acute, grave, circumflex, dieresis, cedilla, that's a lot of keys.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Didn't you just say that you need AltGr for braces ?
 
It's just moronic.
 
3:27 PM
@kbok Yes. So what?
I think you're assuming QWERTY layout means something it doesn't.
The Portuguese layout is QWERTY.
 
@TonyTheLion It's all fun and games until someone loses an arm.
 
Accents? Modifier keys/dead keys.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah sorry, I mean US layout
 
@RadekSlupik Those are not on an English layout.
 
@RadekSlupik That's a property of 105-keys keyboard IIRC. There may be QWERTY for it, if only with British layout (QWERTY but not the same for e.g. the number row).
 
3:29 PM
@kbok Well, it's a matter of proficiency and laziness. I don't want to waste the time practicing on a US keyboard (even though I do have some practice in it from when I was fourteen or something).
 
Modifier keys are not specific to any keyboards.
They are all software.
 
Dead keys are.
@RadekSlupik Keyboard layouts.
 
I mean, there is something behind fixing a layout 'minimal' set + providing key for say diacritics and supplementary characters (which do change for those situations where we instead change the whole layout right now). But it's not that easy to design.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure. When I decided to switch, the FR layout was getting in the way so much my hands were hurting. I figured I would only make the switch once and will never have issues again.
 
I use Canadian French. That means I have to use AltGr for curly and square braces.
 
3:31 PM
It's really an issue of how much your local layout is pissing you off.
 
I don't really mind.
 
I use my thumb for AltGr.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I transitioned relatively painlessly via gtypist (there has to be tons of software for that), but I deliberately settled on not using the French layout during the transition.
Also, passing familiarity with QWERTY before that thanks to gaming.
 
@LucDanton Ah, but I don't have to adapt to any letter key changes.
 
@EtiennedeMartel How does 1234 work?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Those were never a worry.
 
3:33 PM
@LucDanton What?
 
Also, using a language-specific keyboard makes sense when you actually use said language, which I am not.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Do you have to shift for it or not?
@kbok I can't bear unaccented French.
 
I use both Dutch and English.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I can see how it's bearable then.
 
3:34 PM
Fortunately both don't need many accents and such.
 
@LucDanton We don't use French at work, there's too many foreigners.
 
These are the layouts I can switch to with a hotkey.
 
Actually, scratch that, I use Canadian Multilingual Standard.
 
My actual keyboard is a Dutch keyboard, but I have it set on QWERTY, so my layout physically does not correspond to the layout used by the system
 
3:34 PM
Granted, I've been writing lots of Unicode gibberish for testing.
 
Canadian French is different.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hotkey is incompatible with gaming. And/or I'm lazy.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yea I was wondering if you spoke Russian or not
 
@EtiennedeMartel Uppercase cedilla C?
 
3:36 PM
To write "façade".
 
@LucDanton It's uppercase if you hold shift while pressing it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel What is this sorcery!
 
@EtiennedeMartel You can type NBSPs with AltGr?
 
3:37 PM
Seems like it.
I don't really use it though.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wow, good catch. I hear those are useful for French typography.
 
I want to type RTLOs with AltGr.
 
ß <--- AltGr + s
on my keyboard
RTLO?
 
AltGr + Left RTLO, AltGr + Right LTRO.
 
3:37 PM
RTL Ogonek!
 
ß = Option + S on mine.
 
@TonyTheLion Right-to-Left override. Changes the direction of text.
 
oh
didn't know that was possible
 
@LucDanton lol
@TonyTheLion With Unicode everything is possible.
 
With Old Spice too.
 
3:38 PM
You know.
I wish everybody used UTF-8 everywhere from the beginning. Everything would just work.
 
@RadekSlupik That's irrelevant.
 
Then start by using UTF-8 in your own apps.
 
© ® ß å é ü ö ¶ ø æ ñ µ ç « » ´ ¬ ¿
 
Lalilulelo
 
ok, I just went to press all my keys with AltGr pressed
this is what I got
 
3:40 PM
@Etienne I already do.
 
@LucDanton Hmm, the text segmentation annex has some special rules for French and Italian regarding apostrophes, but doesn't mention anything about spaces. I suppose they are useful for any kind of typography.
 
 
Uh, segmentation is to defuse 'overboxed' text (TeX parlance?) right?
 
Overfull? I think so. It's about breaking stuff into words and sentences.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's mostly the colon : you want a NBS before, breaking after.
 
3:42 PM
@LucDanton Ah. That thing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So what, other languages move the apostrophe around senselessly? Or they don't use apostrophes enough to care?
 
@LucDanton French and Italian have word breaks between apostrophes and vowels. The others don't.
 
Oh and semicolons ; for those occasions where you do use one.
 
@TonyTheLion lol I get this œ∑´®†¥¨ˆøπåß∂ƒ©˙∆˚¬Ω≈ç√∫˜µ :P
My keyboard likes teh mathz.
 
oh wow
 
3:43 PM
This is with shift. Œ„´‰ˇÁ¨ˆØ∏ÅÍÎÏ˝ÓÔÒ¸˛Ç◊ı˜Â
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess that's in fact sensible.
 
These are also useful: “‘”’…æ«ÚÆ»≤≥÷¯˘¿.
 
You lose some opportunities for those languages that (presumably) rarely have apostrophes. Sure, why not.
 
@LucDanton That's only the standard algorithm though. Custom tailoring is allowed.
And the level of custom can be arbitrarily selective.
 
I only ever need ´ and ¨, actually, but I’m from NL. I use some German and very often English. I also need ø for my nickname, daknøk.
 
3:45 PM
You can even use dictionaries to decide the breaks.
 
I still don't know what (if any) are the sensible defaults for QWERTY on Posix when it comes to the levels and so on and combining keys.
 
POSIX doesn’t tell anything about keyboard layouts, does it?
 
@LucDanton Hmm, what levels?
 
I mean Posix systems. When in Rome...
 
... break words between apostrophes and vowels.
 
3:46 PM
Because I don't think I've ever used 'vanilla' Posix systems with QWERTY. Dunno how the keyboard works beyond shift.
 
kill the Emperor and become Roman Emperor yourself?
 
Like combining+comma is acute deadkey, no? But I have that disabled -- should I?
 
Don't look at me.
 
I can type ± in two different ways. :/
 
Ewww, Apple keyboards.
 
3:53 PM
I have a special key for ± and I can do shift+option++.
 
do you ever use either?
 
Rarely.
 
lol
 
One day, Apple will sell keyboard that will run on microtransactions.
You put your credit card info somewhere, and you get charged for every stroke.
 
I’d just connect a different keyboard.
Problem solved.
 
3:58 PM
@EtiennedeMartel btr typ lik 12 yr old
 
The one I am using right now.
 
Yeah, but you wouldn't be a Real Apple Fan™.
 
I am not.
I just like some of their products.
 

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