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12:00 AM
the other issue with "Just copy the range to provide multiple cursors" is that then you no longer have the effective ability to provide move-only ranges.
 
Agreed. I can't do that for that particular range.
 
@DeadMG true
 
Xeo
Btw, Andrei's ranges kinda solve the "current element" problem - they provide access to front and back, and then you can pop those. It's a destructive process, though. :/
 
that, I think, breaks the "range with iterator" idea.
 
@Xeo That's okay. Slicing a range is here just for that.
 
12:02 AM
actually
 
I guess all I really want is "iterators that knows by itself when it's at the end".
 
@Xeo You're thinking about it wrong. You don't have a "current" element. You have an ability to work directly with the first element. As for being conceptually wrong, or worse than iterators wrong: I have to disagree -- and generations of Lisp programmers (among many others) have shown this idea works quite nicely.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton I didn't mean that the destructiveness is on the original range in particular
 
I think that we can maintain "range has current element" for input ranges.
only other ranges like forward/bidi/random need to provide cursors.
but what I don't like about cursors is that they're really not as ... fluent as my previous range design.
 
Xeo
Maybe it's just me, but it feels weird to have to make copies / "backups" to go back to older elements even for bidirectional-and-better ranges.
Or I'm simply misunderstanding you.
 
12:03 AM
you're implementing nested types
oh well
it's really not that bad, I guess.
 
Jan 18 at 14:32, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I don't care what you call 'em. I want iterators that know if they are at the end.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes go to bed
 
I am going to. I just came from the bathroom.
 
anyone having problems in push or pull to bitbucket - git
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You came so hard it pressed down keys on the keyboard, and aimed it to produce messages?
impressive!
 
12:08 AM
im trying to push a commit, but it just dont do anything, i've checked their server status and it says its all ok.[
 
@Xeo It certainly is different. I don't know about 'weird'. It's code man.
 
via git bash or git gui, it doesnt work - could it be my git installation?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG lol
 
@Zoidberg lol
 
@DeadMG iterator that knows when it's at the end, with separate traversal/access categories seems to address all of those except "simpler".
 
Xeo
12:09 AM
@rogcg Do you "commit" or "push"?
@LucDanton Maybe it just feels foreign after working with iterators all this time. :P
 
@MooingDuck You mean, just an iterator, but instead of having a pair, we just have explicit operator bool or somesuch?
 
@Xeo I did commit my changes, but when I tried to push it to my repo, it doesnt go. just freezes.
 
I think that rather than start from iterators, and try to improve them, I'd think in terms of starting from things like Lisp, Haskell, and possibly Python, and think about what works well in their list comprehension (and such) and think more about how much of that goodness can be incorporated into C++ iterators.
 
@DeadMG ...
 
@JerryCoffin A shitload of garbage-collected heap objects, less flexibility, etc.
 
12:11 AM
wtf, 'less'?
 
Xeo
@rogcg Hm, no idea then, sorry.
 
u mad
 
@rogcg try to connect using plain ssh and make it verbose (-v -v -v). The usual drills, really
 
will try
 
@DeadMG I was thinking .is_end(), but yeah.
 
12:12 AM
have u had problems with bitbucket lately?
 
Xeo
nope
 
@rogcg No, but some other people did.
 
weird
 
Xeo
I can try pushing something, though.
 
@LucDanton completely unrelated: I'm considering the conclusion that the minecraft server failed? Maybe I can repurpose it
 
12:12 AM
@MooingDuck One of my designs did reduce to that, I think, in hindsight.
 
Xeo
Also, 7.1 Surround clicks in Windows feel strange.
 
with a few cleaning touches
 
Aaaa reverse Laplace transform and partial fractions and all that shit
So painful and boring
 
@Xeo Lower the volume. You're supposed to hear, not feel them
 
@DeadMG the only "problem" I can think of is that const char* is no longer an iterator.
 
Xeo
12:13 AM
@sehe lol
 
@MooingDuck No, I remember why I abandoned that model.
subranging doesn't really work.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Why?
 
@DeadMG I didn't ever say the result was going to be identical (or even close). What I'm saying is that things everybody agrees are problematic aren't nearly as good of a starting point is things that actually work pretty well. As for garbage collected and/or less flexibility -- I'm not at all sure how garbage collection applies here at all. Much of the point of ranges is to reduce flexibility a little bit, to the point that shooting yourself in the foot isn't quite so easy.
 
@sehe I think @Xeo wanted in on the fun. In any case I can certainly back things up.
 
Does anyone know a painless way to work with 'bleeding edge boost' from a git repository? There appears to be "stuff" at github, but it's so... confusing. It's a mess really.
And subeversion is way too painful
 
12:15 AM
There should be git repos for the individual libraries. Or maybe some of them. Is that what you're referring to?
 
^ I mean...
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Yeah, but I haven't had time for that lately. :(
Especially considering I only got my interwebs yesterday.
 
@LucDanton Yeah, it seems so. However, the 'super library' doesn't "super", IYAM. That is pretty much the opposite of painless
 
Xeo
Also, I need a way to access my PC from work.
 
@sehe I'll make a final backup, turn off the lights and ping you about it.
 
12:16 AM
Think of iterators as "gotos". What we want is the equivalent of a "while" or "for" loop -- useful for nearly everything you want from gotos, but more readable, less open to abuse, etc.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, just to start, you can't random-access into a list comprehension.
 
Xeo
@rogcg Yeah, no problem pushing.
 
@LucDanton okay, so no mining in planning?
 
list comprehensions are only good for just that- lists.
 
@Xeo than IDK what to do.
 
Xeo
12:17 AM
@DeadMG Eh, not really.
 
and secondly
 
@DeadMG true
 
Python generator functions (and their Lua counterparts) are almost exactly the model I used to create my first design.
 
@sehe I would gladly but not alone. (Hopefully not every one else feels the exact same way or that would quite the catch-22.)
 
it was almost perfect except I could not fix the problems with creating new subranges.
 
12:18 AM
@LucDanton :)
 
@JerryCoffin and quicksort?
 
Xeo
2 mins ago, by Xeo
@LucDanton Yeah, but I haven't had time for that lately. :(
:s
 
I'm not here to guilt-trip :p It's not like I don't play enough vidya gaems.
 
What's with the "vidya gaems" meme?
 
Xeo
Also, I have a shitton of stuff to catch up on now that I have internet...
My next weeks are gonna be seriously busy. :(
 
12:20 AM
@MooingDuck What does a good Quicksort in something like Haskell look like/how does it work?
 
Xeo
@sehe He's working for nVidia's secret game section and testing those "gems", which combines to "(n)vidia game gems", but because that would be too obvious, he calls it "vidya gaems".
 
It was just a network hickup
@Xeo Makes sense
 
@JerryCoffin It involves creating two entirely new heap-allocated lists and putting each part in them, and then splicing them back together at the end.
 
@JerryCoffin haven't the foggiest idea, but you can't think of iterators as gotos for a "while" or "for", since we also need random access.
Or, DeadMG showed that you can, by making copies of the list, which I don't like.
 
@Xeo Anyway the world can find a new home and so on. It's not over!
 
12:22 AM
well, I've seen the implementation, but there's no way that it would be acceptable in C++.
 
reinstalled git and looks like it worked
 
the efficiency would be horrendous.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Yeah, and I don't think I'd currently do a good job at anything I'd lay my hands on in-game. I should catch up on things and when that has calmed down come back.
 
@MooingDuck I think you're trying to take the metaphor a little too literally. You can create any control structure you want with a goto -- but in nearly every case, you prefer the constraints imposed by for/while loops and such.
 
@JerryCoffin nearly all. But we can't limit ourselves to just that.
 
12:24 AM
come to think of it
I'm not even sure that quicksort requires random access...
 
@DeadMG it doesn't, merely subranges
 
yeah.
 
@DeadMG I can believe that's how Haskell (at least conceptually) would do it, but mostly because of "pure functional", so modifying existing data is basically verboten.
 
but something like heapsort would be a real problem.
@JerryCoffin Quicksort is a bad example anyway because it doesn't really require random access.
 
I cant wait to use bitbucket sourcetree beta for windows
 
12:27 AM
@LucDanton anyways, see downloads.sehe.nl/stackoverflow/minecraft/… for a backup of revision 8bf7706ffc118d705d72b679044e091fb1442391 (<-- just to irk the puppy)
Mmm. It's still uploading. My upload seems to have dropped to only 300kb for no apparent reason.
 
or TortoiseHg
 
@sehe 404
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf : Im new to Visual Studio, and don't have a great amount experience with C++ thats my excuse.. :) .. its still no excuse but anyway... after digging around a little it looks like what I should do the next time I get this or a similar crash is to use the threads window view the call stacks for the other threads in the application, or do you have a better suggestion ? — volting 1 hour ago
 
@LucDanton It's done now (and properly renamed to tbz2 :) Warning: 124MiB)
@DeadMG meh. ^
 
^ Could someone please help this guy. I'm just too tired, and besides no experience with opencv except toy program to display video.
hm, more tea
 
12:40 AM
@sehe Not Found The requested URL /stackoverflow/minecraft/mindcrack-loungecpp.tar was not found on this server.
 
Darn. People are blind. And can't work with URLs
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Psst: 3 messages above
 
@Xeo huh. can't read I guess
 
@ScottW lol. keep trying
 
hmm. I shaved yesterday and my wife liked it a lot. But I hate shaving. :(
 
12:44 AM
@MooingDuck Your like, beard and stuff?
 
@ThePhD yeah, sorry. Forgot I was on the internet. I shaved my beard.
 
I thought you meant like your head for a second.
 
I just realized out context, that sentence looks strange.
even in context it's strange
 
Hola
 
@ScottW nope. Just laughter. Honest and unrestrained. I know you well enough
 
12:45 AM
Is it possible to track a mobile phone somehow?
 
@DeadMG From a conceptual viewpoint, heapsort strikes me as difficult primarily for one reason: because we really have two ranges, and a constantly-changing boundary between the two. Shrinking a range is easy, but I have a lot of difficulty with the concept of expanding a range. For that to really even make sense, we have to know that's a sub-range of something else, and it can only expand to the entire range of which it's a subrange. That requires some honest thought.
 
If you work for a phone company, sure.
 
@MooingDuck You do?! My wife says she likes it. I'm 'bare' only once a month, maybe 7 weeks most often, though
 
@ThePhD, isn't there a way to get the IP of a mobile phone connected to 3g?
 
@Jeffrey impossible
 
Xeo
12:47 AM
Question: Any of you guys using ssh / remote desktop to connect to your home PC from work?
 
@sehe, ok thanks
 
@Jeffrey yeah. jailbreak, terminal, ip link show or ifconfig
 
@JerryCoffin Yes, it's mainly when considering changing the range boundaries which is an issue.
 
@sehe, wait wat?
 
@Jeffrey anyways 'there's an app for that'
 
12:47 AM
@DeadMG Like I said, shrinking is easy. Expanding is what's hard.
2
 
@ScottW so... you shaved your hands!?
 
@Jeffrey Your question lacks huge amounts of context. Of course cells can be tracked (duh, it's what GSM transport is based on). And, of course you can't 'just' violate someone else's privacy. Of course you can get an IP address for a 3g connected cell. Of course, usually, you'd need access to the phone and permission to see the IP address. Of course... etc.
 
Xeo
No one? :(
 
@DeadMG To be conceptually correct, I think you'd never expand the range of sorted numbers -- rather, you should theoretically create a new (larger) subrange of the overall range every time.
 
@JerryCoffin Tell me you didn't go for a swim mid-winter
@Xeo Already starred it. Oh, right. A question
 
12:50 AM
@Xeo I use it to connect to bitbucket. :D
 
@Xeo Of course.
 
@sehe Not likely.
 
Xeo
@sehe What did you do to make your PC reachable from the outside? Static IP? Dyndns?
 
@Xeo Static IP. Also dyndns for relatives
 
Xeo
I see. Static IP isn't for free, right?
 
12:51 AM
@Xeo I used to connect to home via a VPN (when I worked away from home), but not using SSH.
 
@Xeo neither is your internet
 
Xeo
@sehe Meh, I mean on top of the internet base price.
 
@JerryCoffin I used to do that. Waaaaay back. When I was still 'bleeding edge' with Win2k
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Hm, never worked with VPNs before.
 
@Xeo Not for me. Anyways, the point is moot, just (a) reverse roles (b) use dyndns or similar
 
Xeo
12:52 AM
@sehe (a)?
 
@Xeo Yes, nearly always costs extra. Little advantage over dyndns for most purposes.
 
@JerryCoffin Haven't bothered with VPN since I learnt how to properly SSH. Tunneling, forwarding, gatewaying, proxying, the works
@Xeo If you can contact the work server, just set up a channel and tunnel the reverse connection. Come to think of it, this is probably not an option for you
 
Xeo
@sehe Well, we can connect to the work VPN somehow, but I'd have to ask around how to do that.
 
For setting up 'semi-permanent' connections, autossh is decent. Use it with ssh -o ControlMaster auto and be happy
@Xeo :effort:
That seems the way to go then.
 
Xeo
Erm, I remember dyndns being free for basic usage... did that change or am I just too blind to see it?
 
1:01 AM
@Xeo It still is for me, but I have to regularly re-activate by visiting
 
drynds?
 
Xeo
@sehe Oh, I see.
 
It might be they 'closed down' for new users, but keep the 'free service' for existing clients?
 
Xeo
I remember having an account waaay back then when I was playing around with RO server emulators, and that was free, but it seems the account doesn't exist anymore.
 
@Xeo I get a mail notification, though, so it's a simple click
@Xeo Nope. Failed to reactivate -> deletion
 
Xeo
1:02 AM
Ugh
 
@sehe My use was apparently around the same time as yours, when Win2K was quite new (though I'm not sure -- might even have been with NT4).
 
Yeah. Good times, really.
 
Ell
I have A dyndns
 
Still remember configuring RAS servers, and auto-dialout connection on demand (that was kinky: it'd detect implicite gateway usage as a result of the static routes)
@Ell Martin L., is that you?
 
Ell
Heh :P
Good one :D
 
1:12 AM
@Xeo Yes, it's changed, but there are quite a few alternatives. dnslookup.me/dynamic-dns
 
> Ah well. It looks like I'm just invisible to you then. Sorry for bothering. Good luck with the blog sehe 0 minutes ago (bottom)
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Yeah, looking at that right now.
 
Guy leaves comments pending moderation for over a month. Proceeds to nuke comments on all posts claiming "evil ads by Disqus". Proceeds to ignore replies at his own HN thread none-the-less.
>Stumped<
 
@Rapptz did you click the link right next to the claim? it takes you to the source.
 
Xeo
1:26 AM
 
@MooingDuck Yeah I saw
But still, why 27% slower?
 
@Rapptz that's for the "average" C++ submission vs the "average" C submission. Fastest to fastest is 1:1
and slowest to slowest, C++ is about 15% faster.
for comparison, fastest Python is 1.23 seconds, average is 52.57 seconds. Some of these submissions are "not pros" IMO
 
Hello, all you C++ nerds!
 
I wish the shootout sorted by fastest by default :/ Or was sortable by any other column than "mean".
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck There's no reason for C++ to be slower, unless it's implemented in a less efficient variation.
 
1:31 AM
@Xeo it's implemented in a less efficient variation.
 
Xeo
Ew
 
it's using gcc 4.7.2
 
@Borgleader ready for an underwhelming presentation tomorrow? :P
 
o_o
 
Xeo
Also, I think I'll name any variables I need for examples with Japanese numbers from now on.
 
1:31 AM
@emartel Oh hush, I'm sure it'll be fun.
RTS :D
 
@Borgleader hehe actually no :P after talking with Jonathan I'll make the same presentation I usually present at USherbrooke, I was mixed up with the presentation I did at Poly 2 years ago :P
 
Xeo
Gah, 2:30am already again
I should stop doing thiiiis.
 
@Xeo change timezones you'll be fine
 
@emartel So, what will it be on?
 
Xeo
My work won't change timezone with me, though. :(
 
1:33 AM
@Borgleader behavior systems - or whatever you guys want to talk about :)
 
Sounds neat
 
I usually present this as an "intro" to basic methods to accomplish game ai
 
So I guess it's like... how NPCs act depending on their "mental state"?
 
We should totally write better C++ tests for them. The fasta and fasta-redux programs are destroying C++'s "score".
4
 
Hello everyone :)
 
1:34 AM
Hi @c0dem0nkey
 
looks like blue bolt's still off
 
Ell
Dern this coke isnt keeping me awake!
 
@Borgleader more basic than that... 3 architectures to define game ai and stuff to think about when designing game ai
if it's too basic for the class, I'll just answer questions :)
 
Oh, sounds neat :)
 
1:37 AM
I can pretty much explain the tech behind most games I worked on (except Assassin's Creed :()
 
that one runs on magic?
 
Cuz' its classified?
 
there any c# rooms
 
yeah "classified"... Ubi's PR dept. told me I wasn't allowed to say anything about it :(
 
@MooingDuck Nice avatar man.
@MooingDuck it's psyduck!
 
Ell
1:42 AM
There is a c# room
 
1:56 AM
@MooingDuck Am I cheating? That reverse-complement solution I kept posting about earlier is ~16.7x faster than the fastest listed C++ solution, while producing the same results:
sehe@desktop:~/Projects/reverse-complement$ time ./cpp-version < input  | md5sum
33ad35318cfcdc0b675f33633b26445b  -

real	0m1.562s
user	0m1.596s
sys	0m0.012s
sehe@desktop:~/Projects/reverse-complement$ time ./alioth < input  | md5sum
33ad35318cfcdc0b675f33633b26445b  -

real	0m26.088s
user	0m12.589s
sys	3m14.868s
 
o.O I knew bears were smart... but that's impressive
 
@Borgleader I'm fearing I'm violating some rule of some kind. My code was ... unoptimized IMO
 
There's only one way to find out. Test the crap out of it :)
 
@Borgleader I'm putting it on a gist so you can give it a look: gist.github.com/sehe/4590998
Note that cpp-version is my version. alioth is the 'current leading c++ solution' and c-version is from that funny "Haskell isn't faster" blog guy
sehe@desktop:~/Projects/reverse-complement$ wc -l *.cpp *.c
  291 alioth.cpp
   90 cpp-version.cpp   <----------- WOOT
  211 c-version.c
@MooingDuck think I should submit it?
 
Ok so... the fastest is 2.41 and yours is 16.7x faster than that? So...like 15 ms? O.o
that's insane...
 
2:08 AM
@Borgleader Well, it's only with a limited test data set - since that's all they give you. I've simply concatenated those to arrive at a "large input file" (250MiB)
 
I wonder if the tricks Andrei gives in his C++ talk could make it even faster...
sadly i dont have time to look into that
 
@Borgleader which talk?
 
Ok, submitted: alioth.debian.org/tracker/… /cc @MooingDuck
 
error| wrong number of template arguments (1, should be 2 or more)
      return std::forward<Visitor>(visitor).template apply<stored_type>(
                                                                      ^
error| provided for 'template<class Sfinae, class Functor, class ... Variants> struct annex::variant_detail::apply'
I'm not sure how to connect those two together.
 
2:19 AM
RAAAEGE. Silly Alioth tracker is not accepting the attachment... Not in Opera, nor in Chrome. Go figure
Well. Just dumped the code in a follow up comment ... :(
Hmm. I didn't even think to un-tie std::cin and std::cout. This can't be right
@Borgleader Thx. Having a look
 
the c# room sucks
 
@zoid You do haskell, right? I'd like to pick your brain sometime when we are both on. In the meantime, maybe I'll just post an SO Q...
 
Victory! I did the stupid assignment
 
@CatPlusPlus /golf clap
 
Amazingly I had like 40 tabs open and Chrome didn't crash
I do Haskell too
 
2:31 AM
@CatPlusPlus coolio...can I pick your brain? ;-)
 
There's little left but I'm in a surprisingly good mood for 3:30AM after 3 hours of doing shit assignments so yeah why not
 
One sec...let me push my code to github for reference ;-)
@CatPlusPlus It's a bit of code, but I have Qs about specific parts. Don't wanna paste it here, because even those parts are a bit lengthy.
Anyway...as you might be able to tell, I am trying to compare poker hands. Initially, Rank was what is now RankOrd. This works great to tell that a four-of-a-kind beats a full house, for example.
But it doesn't let me compare two three-of-a-kinds.
 
Are you getting type errors or just have no ideas
 
no, no type errors...mostly my questions are about design atm.
My first question is can I use RankInfo without RankOrd and still get the comparison between different kinds of hands and then code how to "break ties" so to speak.
Maybe I should back up...my idea here is that I want to compare two hands to see who wins. My hopeful solution is to pack all the info about a hand into a single data that I can compare with a simple (<) comparison.
 
I'm not sure why you have this RankOrd and RankInfo in the first place
 
2:37 AM
Using the Ord class type, of course.
Well, originally I just had RankOrd, but just called it Rank. I could easily find the winner between two different kinds of hands, but not between two hands that are similar, like 3 eights and 3 Aces.
(Unfortunately, I didn't commit the evolution of my code to my repo ;-(...)
 
You suck at versioning
 
lol
well, in this case, yes
Normally, I do better...
 
Oh problem 54 was a fun one.
 
@Rapptz That obvious, eh? =p
 
It's in the filename.
 
2:40 AM
Damn, upon closer inspection that alioth C++ submission looks like it's written by a Java programmer!!?! benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/… :
 
I'm bad at poker
 
int main( int argc, const char *argv[] ) {
   ReverseComplement revcom;
   revcom.Run();
   return 0;
}
 
@Rapptz Glad you caught onto that ;-)
 
Give me an example of a tie with three-of-a-kind
 
@CatPlusPlus Say three eights and three Aces. It doesn't matter what the other two cards are; the Aces beat the eights.
 
2:42 AM
I don't remember the problem being this complex
 
Then it seems rather simple to break a tie
 
then again I did it in C++ and I don't know Haskell
 
@Rapptz I'm probably making it more difficult than it needs to be.
I could easily code something very ugly that solves the problem. I'm trying to do it with some Haskell tools that I'm not entirely familiar with.
But then I'm using Project Euler to learn Haskell, so that's kind of the point.
 
yeap
 
Right now, my problem is mostly a design issue.
 
2:44 AM
never cared about design
 
lol
 
Still don't.
 
Haskell provides some powerful tools that provide default ordering for a user-defined datatype.
For a basic enum-like type, it's very simple. I want to use that basic functionality as well as extend it to break ties between two hands that are the same kind.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, it should be. I'm just struggling with creating the right data structure will let me do all comparisons easily, both when the two hands are different types and when they are the same.
 
2:47 AM
Get out
:v:
 
So. TABS vs SPACES huh.
 
wow...a chat just for indentation...
 
Yeah, it was getting a bit too much.
 
don't break my irony kthx
 
Can I break your keyboard instead
 
2:49 AM
how about... um... no.
 
Angry Cat.
 
@Code-Guru ISTM that recording the rank should do it
 
@EtiennedeMartel: tell me you saw the new HOTS trailer
 
And really you only need to know what breaks a tie since this isn't simulation or whatever
 
@Borgleader Oh, wait, I forgot about that.
 
2:50 AM
Go now you fool
 
TO THE TRAILER! Batman Theme
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'd make a pun with Gévaudan. But I'm lazy.
 
"HOTS" trailer?!
 
It's for those that want to see the HOTS.
 
2:53 AM
Sure. Heart of the swarm. what else
 
Xeo
+1, especially for variables _ichi, _ni, and _san. — Patrick Niedzielski 2 mins ago
lol
 
I have the hots for kerrigan
 

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