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7:01 PM

Sandbox

Where you can play with regular chat features (except flagging...
Everyone, meet Sandbox
 
sbi
@RMartinho, you there?
 
I just replaced pthread_mutex_timedlock by pthread_mutex_lock in the hope the rest of the project will compile cleanly. Will this kill the code?
 
ABUSE CHAT FORMATTING
ACQUIRE BANNING
(read as an image macro)
 
16 messages moved to Sandbox
 
7:02 PM
@sehe But here is more funner :(
 
I say that not as an admin.
 
user1174868
I am stuck, how do I do != in scheme without it returns #t or #f I just want it to test the two values
 
@MooingDuck failed.aspx
 
user1174868
or do I have to do an if statement that runs if it returns a fale?
 
@Jordan What?
 
7:03 PM
@CatPlusPlus who puts () in URLs?
 
user1174868
@CatPlusPlus I don't know how to do "does not equal" in scheme
 
@MooingDuck Microsoft.
 
@Jordan have you seen the Room title? Tags? newbie hints?
 
@MooingDuck Also, I rountinely edit my project files in Gvim. A text editor is orders of magnitude faster and much less error prone than manually clicking and browsing fucking .NET references in every single damn project file. It HURTS.
 
(not (= x y)), or something like that.
 
7:04 PM
I don't believe anyone actually prefers doing the VS 'Wizard' voodoo dance. It is bad, it is slow, it is ugly, it is obfuscated, it hurts.
 
@rubenvb he can't ask SO questions, so he comes here once a day and we yell at him
 
user1174868
Sorry
 
user1174868
I think not returns #t or #f
 
Your Scheme implementation has a manual, you know.
It's a logical operator, obviously it returns #t or #f.
 
Scheme is a functional programming language and one of the two main dialects of the programming language Lisp. Unlike Common Lisp, the other main dialect, Scheme follows a minimalist design philosophy specifying a small standard core with powerful tools for language extension. Its compactness and elegance have made it popular with educators, language designers, programmers, implementors, and hobbyists. The language's diverse appeal is seen as a strong point, though the consequently wide divergence between implementations is seen as one of the language's weak points. Scheme was develope...
 
7:05 PM
The manual is incompatible with this user's brain.
 
@Jordan what else would it return?
 
Ell
@rubenvb that is politely?
 
@Jordan please take the hint. You are annoying here and I'm going to flag you for moderator if you continue abusing the chat rooms
 
:4447919 And yet other non C++ topics are discussed... kind of arbitrary isn't it?
 
@Ell I found that pretty polite.
@JimNorton the only SO kind of topic that comes close is sometimes C# and Haskell. But that's more geekfest than problem solving.
 
7:07 PM
@rubenvb The text was polite. The shouting is immature. If you pay any attention, you'll know this isn't the first time this user came by. Just the usual: plonk
Jun 4 at 13:26, by sehe
EVERYBODY: Commit chatticide and PRESS IGNORE simultaneously?
Probelmo solvo
 
@rubenvb My point is that it seems arbitrary to declare an off-topic comment as being from the devil when much of what is said here is off-topic.
 
user1174868
Guess I can't discuss programming in the programming chat room
 
@sehe first time I saw him while I was present. And no, I don't dig through the transcript. But OK. Next time I won't shout :)
 
@JimNorton Please read through some of the user's history for a good perspective.
@Jordan Well, I wouldn't know, I'm never in the programming chat room
 
Ell
@Jordan do remember this is a lounge. also a c++ lounge.
 
@Jordan we discuss programming. But we don't answer questions here. As we've told you many many many many times.
 
user1174868
Well where can I ask questions?
 
@MooingDuck There was is a many missing there
 
user1174868
I wouldn't ask if I hadn't been stuck on this for so long
 
@Jordan er, StackOverflow?
 
user1174868
7:09 PM
I can't ask questions on SO
 
user1174868
"Sorry, we are no longer accepting questions from this account. See goo.gl/C1Kwu to learn more."
 
@Jordan Why not?
 
@Jordan SO is not a website for learning to program as we've told you many many many many times. Find a book/teacher/learn to program website
 
@MooingDuck Not quite true... I see questions answered here rather often...
 
@Jordan You're a broken record. You're going on the flag roll right now
 
user1174868
7:10 PM
Is there a good scheme tutorial somewhere? Most seem too compelx for someone just learning programming
 
@JimNorton that's when they're asked nicely by funny people about some C-ish language.
 
@MooingDuck Seems like the standards and rules of this room aren't enforced evenly for all people.
 
Did you read the link SO ban directs you to?
 
user1174868
yup
 
7:11 PM
Look how many times you've told us that and we discussed that already!
 
Not trying to pick a fight, just commenting on what I've seen.
 
Then put some more effort.
 
@Jordan Well, for one thing, getting aggressive with flags doesn't paint a pretty pciture for the mods that are going to take a look into your behaviour here.
 
This is a community, not a paid support.
 
7:12 PM
@Jordan does it have to be Scheme?
 
user1174868
@ITNinja Yeah
 
@JimNorton as the newbie hints say, you have to not be irritating first. Jordan has proven irritating
 
Ell
hmm. It seems firefox doesn't have html5 :S
 
@JimNorton so yes. not equal.
 
@MooingDuck Ah ok.... I don't know his history.
 
7:12 PM
And btw, we do see every single one of the flags that you cast. And we can invalidate them with 2 clicks.
 
user1174868
How is that irritating? Ignore it if you want, what is really irritating is that you decide to over react and start a witch hunt any time I ask for advice
 
@JimNorton It's pretty simple.
You're here to chat = we're fine with your questions.
 
You're here to ask questions = get out.
 
user1174868
I have been here chatting for a while really
 
7:13 PM
@CatPlusPlus Got it.
 
I'm not commenting on your situation, specifically. I'm too tired to do an audit or anything.
 
@JimNorton The thing is, in those cases, the asking party does accept no for an answer, doesn't get obnoxious saying he "must be able to ask" and we "must answer". This user is banned on the main site. He's just dumping his business here.
 
We welcome new people who'll hang around and participate in chattiness.
 
I sometimes ask a question and it's completely ignored.
I just ignore the ignoring, and move on to the almighty Google.
 
Ell
Yeah same
 
7:14 PM
We don't like people who drop by one time or once in a while to ask silly questions and then disappear.
 
@Jordan when you come in here and ask that we help you learn to program in a language we don't care about on an almost daily basis?
 
@sehe Yes, I can see that now..... I understand why this user is being treated the way he is.
 
we are all here to pet the @CatPlusPlus :D
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, sometime we like the disappearing :)
 
@Jordan I haven't seen you chat much. Mostly ask questions and then flag everyone
 
7:15 PM
not to ask any dumb questions
 
And if you start showing even a hint of smug entitlement, gods help you.
 
Now I understand why the Android room has a whitelist policy.
 
@Jordan Have you tried some Scheme forum on some other site for help?
 
@Mysticial I want a blacklist :(
 
Like that "I KNOW THIS ISN'T THE RIGHT ROOM BUT FUCK YOU I'M TOO IMPORTANT AND YOU OUGHT TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS PEASANTS" guy.
 
7:16 PM
@MooingDuck Feeding it... He mostly spends all hist energy whining about how is supposed to be learning and how he can't possibly do that if we won't answer his questions and blablabla. Frankly, he should direct his energy at reading a page or 10
 
Yup. The inverse Gallery Room is too much effort to implement in their system
 
It's funny, because we have more open community than silly Android rooms.
 
Jordan? Prime user guy? Chocolate Man (before he reformed)? John Smith?
They all fit that description
 
I, for one, don't care about your participation in SO main.
 
7:17 PM
@rubenvb It wasn't too much effort. It's too much PR to deal with when people get blacklisted.
 
I find this room rather helpful, fun and enlightening.
Fun people also.
 
In all seriousness, I don't think Jordan's question history is THAT dumb
 
user1174868
@Sehe are you talking about me? Because that seems kind of overblown
 
@JimNorton That's cause you're part of us and you contribute to the fun.
 
You can have minimum rep on one question/answer for all I care.
 
7:18 PM
@Mysticial but there are already closed rooms. Nobody complains they can't get in.
 
not really dumb at all in fact, are there lots invisible?
 
Just try to be a part of community.
 
@TomW No. The dumbness isn't relevant
 
You must have posted a LOT of garbage to get locked out of SO main. My question history is significantly more inane than the ones I can see from you.
 
Ell
I have a very low rep but I like to think that I don't have a sucky reputation in here. Maybe a bit of a drama queen but...
 
7:19 PM
@rubenvb They don't complain, they just start new closed rooms.
 
@Jordan Well, I list several names, one of which is your name. So yes, you can safely infer I'm talking about you, among other people/things
 
Because that makes perfect sense.
 
user1174868
@TomW I think I have one deleted question for reposting
 
In a few moments I will end up with an Android software OpenMax IL library set. Next goal: figure out how to inject this instead of Google's crappy implementation that's making my youtube HQ laggy.
 
You must have upset someone.
 
user1174868
7:19 PM
@sehe you are being comically dramatic
 
I've seen a lot worse
 
@Jordan :) glad you like it
 
user1174868
@sehe I don't actually
 
Damn. Failed at the comical part. Again. Oh well, just dramatic will do.
 
@sehe the situation is not helped by the fact my program isn't working, with no errors or warnings or logs.
 
7:20 PM
@Jordan Do you have a professor, teacher, TA you can ask? Or somebody you know IRL that knows Scheme?
 
@MooingDuck Anything we can help with?
 
@TomW not the questions on the site, the questions in this room. Like: "how to do a loop that counts up in scheme, would it be wrong just to use condition all the way from 1 to 100?"
@sehe no, it's my company's server software, and it's not connecting to the other server. That's not code I know anything about. I do localizations and audio and speech recognition and such.
 
@MooingDuck ah.
 
Why was I invited to the Sandbox?
 
@Jordan there you go: dreamincode.net/forums/topic/… now you officially have no reason to keep asking the same question.
 
7:24 PM
@MooingDuck I'm really tempted to say: did you check you are running the right version (e.g. debugging the executable that you build?) or did you scroll upin the editor to see the log? Hell - how can you argue that VS doesn't hide things and is a breeze to work with ?!?
 
user1174868
@JimNorton No I am just learning on my own
 
@MooingDuck try to eliminate root causes using netcat/telnet?
 
@JimNorton Our strike messages were moved there.
 
@Mysticial Oh.... got it...
 
user1174868
@ITNinja Thank you, google seems almost worthless for searching for anything related to scheme
 
7:24 PM
@JimNorton Likely, because I moved the ---strikeout--- stuff there
 
Ell
@Jordan talk to this guy, he knows about scheme cleverbot.com
 
@Jordan And yet ITNinja fount it?
 
@Jordan all i googled was "Scheme tutorial beginner" that was the 3rd result o.o
 
user1174868
@ITNinja Weird, I have tried that before I think
 
is an 'IT Ninja' like an 'IT Girl'?
 
7:26 PM
Weird indeed
 
@Jordan AND the fact that there was a tutorial named "Yet another scheme tutorial".
 
paid too much for doing fuck all
 
....
 
(sorry! just kidding!)
 
Your implementation. Manual.
If you use implementation without manual, switch to Racket.
 
user1174868
7:26 PM
It seems like most scheme tutorials are made for people who already are adept at programming
 
Ell
Lol I found my new best friend: cleverbot.com/j2log-hPlEOeOWEMHDKAICPKHE-detail (read the history about scheme)
 
@Jordan Scheme is probably not a good first language to learn...
 
@JimNorton extremely true >.>
 
@JimNorton I totally agree with that...
TBH, as much as we hate Java. Java is one of the better first languages to learn.
C++ has too many ropes for beginners.
 
7:30 PM
Meh. The Duck isn't responding. I thought my associative reasoning here was pretty WIN
 
@Mysticial yeah, its put me through the wringer over the past couple of days.
 
@Mysticial I agree. I learned BASIC first on an Atari 400, then Pascal, Fortran, C and others later.
 
@Mysticial I was trying to think of a good alternative. That IS a good alternative. Either that, or C.
@JimNorton Basic, Pascal, Prolog, C++, all others (Java, C#) for me
 
Ell
@Mysticial c# I think is good. My first encounter with programming was batch files (not really programming is it?) and then as2. I learned vb.net first, then ruby, then c++
 
user1174868
@JimNorton I know but I am learning it for a class I will be taking in the fall
 
7:30 PM
@sehe C has just as many ropes as C++. It's just that C++ tries to hide them so you don't even know that you're hanging yourself.
3
 
g'evening y'all
 
user1174868
I am bad at programming and lazy so I want to learn as much as I can before the class starts so I can keep up
 
@sehe had to reboot to uninstall. Will have to reboot again to reinstall
@sehe I know it's the right everything because it was a clean install, I didn't build anything myself.
 
@Mysticial I know. I was referrring to it as a starting point to learn about programming. Not to become proficient/a good programmer at once
 
ah
 
7:31 PM
@Jordan But why are you taking Scheme if you don't have the basics of programming down first?
 
@sehe Besides, the first isn't a visual studio problem, that's a coworkers set everything up stupid problem.
 
@MooingDuck I was kidding. It did make a swell argument against your own love for IDEs, in my opinion
 
user1174868
@JimNorton It is the only class offered at my school
 
@MooingDuck And that has nothing to do with the tooling because of ....
 
@sehe I have no idea what server it's connecting to, with what protocol, or what the connection should look like.
 
7:32 PM
@Jordan Uhhmm... wow?
 
A lot of schools are having Scheme as a first language. IMO, it's a mistake.
 
user1174868
@JimNorton I go to a communtiy college, it is the intro to programming class for the local university
 
My undergrad also has Scheme as a first language. I skipped it and took it my senior year because they wouldn't let me graduate without it.
 
user1174868
I think they use it as a sort of weed-out class to fail as many people as possible
 
@Mysticial They are trying to be too progressive.
 
7:33 PM
@MooingDuck Linux? strace. UNIX? truss or similar. Mmmm. can you debug using windbg? Use Tcpview.exe or Procexp.exe from sysinternals.com
 
@Jordan then find a book and study it
 
user1174868
I have been working through SICP
 
@MooingDuck Not the cover
 
@JimNorton I went: batch->xhtml->css->python->sql->c++
 
@Jordan I see. That's unfortunate.
 
7:34 PM
@JimNorton I learned HTML, BASIC, then C++, then dabbled in others, but never really "learned" them. sorta learning Java now.
 
@Jordan Wow. That's an achievement. Really, that's not intro-level material in my opinion
 
@ITNinja MVS/TCL?
 
@JimNorton ?
 
@Mysticial Meh. Python.
 
@MooingDuck Yeah, same here, learning Java just by doing....
 
7:35 PM
When I get the gist of the 'first language recommendations' here, it would appear that BASIC is still the best language to get started with. Perhaps try VB.Net
 
basic C++ isn't bad either as a first language. If you avoid the nasty parts.
 
@sehe it claims it is
 
@ITNinja By batch I thought you meant mainframe stuff.. nevermind.
 
Dead simple, expressive and powerful.
 
just give classes, pointers, and std::cout.
 
7:35 PM
@CatPlusPlus I've done a bit of Python. I'm no expert, but I will agree that it's probably a decent first language.
 
@rubenvb pointers? are you crazy?
 
@Jordan wow thats an old book
 
@Mysticial Yeah, its still my language of choice for most things.
 
See, we're discussing programming and loving it. No poor questions were harmed.
 
Pointers in C++ are not needed for a beginner.
 
7:36 PM
I really think C is a good first language... then move on to a subset of C++ to learn object oriented way of thinking...
 
You should learn templates way before you learn about pointers.
 
@bamboon it's part of the stuff. It ain't hard. new and delete aren't crazy stuff. But I agree with the @Cat they aren't strictly necessary.
 
@JimNorton I would tend to agree. But only as a first language :)
 
@JimNorton C is a good first language if you really want to understand everything to the metal.
 
processing is good
 
7:37 PM
@Mysticial Which is, in my opinion, indispensable for good programmers
 
but C/C++ rather not suitable
 
Ell
@rubenvb but once you teach new and delete you have to un-teach it when you teach them about raii
 
C is not a good first language.
 
That's how I taught my Civil engineering friend C++. Starting from barebones C. Pointers right from the start.
 
after some processing then maybe java and oop
 
7:37 PM
@Nils Arduino... yuck.
 
@JimNorton wrong and evil. Give them std::string.
 
@rubenvb no raw pointers until after they write template classes.
3
 
Ok guys, I'm off, cya later
 
cya sehe
 
no I meant just the graphics thing
 
7:37 PM
And ever since, he has never shot himself in C++ again.
 
C string handling cannot be given to a beginner, and if you learn C as your first language, you'll handle strings
 
@MooingDuck first programming course? No templates required. Functions and classes are more useful.
 
@Ell yeah, that
 
@CatPlusPlus C can be a good first language for people who are able to change their ways
 
cya sehe
 
7:38 PM
@TomW No.
 
@TomW People don't change easily.
 
No, they will just write shitty code.
 
Yeah as I said C is not suitable. C was never intended to be "easy".
 
C is terrible
 
The first thing you have to learn after how to use C is all the times you should never attempt to use C
 
7:38 PM
C is a terrible language for any purpose whatsoever, with the potential exception of <insert random miniscule niche here>.
 
@TomW I largely taught myself "C" after learning a bit of Pascal in college.
 
no it's not
 
after having fallen in many of C's traps, I'm trying to avoid it as much as possible
 
I bypassed step 1
 
C is too much boilerplate to be useful. C++ is just enough boilerplate to learn a lot about how to program stuff.
 
7:40 PM
@TonyTheLion But falling into those traps is a good way to learn defensive programming techniques.
 
@JimNorton I have never had to defend myself against C++.
 
just trying to remember if strlen takes the zero termination char into account or not, is way too much detail I should need to remember
 
@JimNorton For coding in C, which nobody sane would ever have to do.
 
WTF are "defensive programming techniques" anyway? I bet RAII make those useless.
 
@DeadMG Oh please..... Stop with your ridiculous generalizations. :-)
 
7:41 PM
@DeadMG Then by that definition, I'm beyond insane.
 
@rubenvb it does
@Mysticial yes
 
@JimNorton I know. It was way too respectful to C.
 
@MooingDuck thought it was some buffer overflow read-past missing '\0' crap :)
 
I've used C, that means I'm insane then?
 
@Mysticial Eh. There are small exceptions for some of the kernelmode/DSP/GPGPU stuff
 
7:42 PM
How many of you who bash 'C' actually used it a lot before learning C++?
 
@TonyTheLion Not if somebody else made you or you didn't know what C would be like.
 
@TonyTheLion You probably don't use it on a regular basis for any large project?
 
@JimNorton I'm sure @DeadMG didn't ;-)
 
@Mysticial I try and stick with C++
 
@rubenvb That's a guarantee
 
7:42 PM
but some API's are C based, so unfortunately, you're stuck then
 
actually, I did use it for a short time
plus all the boilerplate I've had to write over C APIs
 
@JimNorton But it doesn't take away the fact that C for most programming tasks is a stupid choice.
 
There is a certain beauty in the simplicity, power and flexibility of C.
 
The multitude of more capable languages, amongst which is C++, just makes my point all by itself.
 
@JimNorton The same beauty as in shooting somebody in the face with a hollowpoint bullet.
i.e., none that a sane person would ever want to think about
 
7:44 PM
If you're going anything OOP, the C++ is almost always the better choice. But when you're just crunching numbers, even if you write it in C++, you find that you're mainly C anyways - no C++ needed.
 
functions like strncpy_s and the likes are just ugly, why not be able to assign a string to another, just like std::string
 
@DeadMG Subjective I guess. I find beauty in 'C'.
 
which is so much nicer
 
brb
 
@Mysticial wrong. std::valarray, std::thread, the math function overloads. C++ offers a lot more over plain C for numeric work.
 
7:45 PM
@Mysticial Eh. Namespaces, op overloads, and stuff like std::array or std::vector usually makes it for me, even in the absence of other C++ requirements.
 
Ell
strlen takes into account the null terminator?
 
oh, plus all that lovely concurrency libraries
@JimNorton What, in how often it crashes, or how often you write programs with security vulnerabilities?
 
@Ell no it does not, but I had to go read to find out.
even "Hello World!" in C is ugly. It uses printf, meh
 
@rubenvb Threads I'll give that to you since it was only added in C++11. But if you find that you're needing vector for stuff like DSP algorithms, then you haven't done anything that's truely low-level to the metal.
 
@Mysticial Because the need to heap allocate an array of any type is so unspeakably high-level?
 
7:48 PM
@DeadMG Have you even seen real DSP code? There is one allocation at the beginning. All the code just crunches double* parameters.
 
I've seen it, very highly optimized
C and MMX asm
 
Ell
DSP?
 
Digital Signal Processing
 
Not just DSP, but any of the dense linear algebra stuff as well.
 
@Mysticial OK. So you do the allocation in the beginning with std::vector. Still sounds fine to me.
 
7:50 PM
try to write a highly optimized Discrete Fourier Transform for running on millions of pixels or samples from audio
 
@DeadMG That part doesn't matter. The caller passes in the data as a double*. So it doesn't matter whether the caller is C or C++.
The library itself is done in C - simply because there is no need for C++.
 
so you hate namespaces? :P
 
My Pi program - although 200k+ lines of code, is in C. Why? Because it never had a need to for C++.
 
Ell
I don't see the logic in that, you can use c++ as C but with added safety?
 
@DeadMG I tried those before, it actually made code refactoring much more difficult because of naming conflicts when I moved things around.
 
7:53 PM
@Mysticial Lambdas/generic algorithms?
 
@Ell I compile it as C++ of course. But I can easily throw it into Linux and compile with C99.
@DeadMG No need for those. These are numeric algorithms.
It goes down to SSE intrinsics.
 
Ell
Hm firefox is being extremely sluggish switching tabs for some reason
 
still don't see how you go without classes
 
This was one hardcore sleep.
 
restart
@DeadMG just structs and free functions works fine too
 
7:57 PM
@DeadMG I use very lightweight structs at the highest level where I'm putting the formulas together. But that's it. No classes needed. No memory allocation needed. (it's all done once at the beginning as a gigantic malloc)
If you run my program to a huge # of digits, you'll see that it allocates everything at the beginning. Then it memory usage stays completely constant through the entire computation.
 
@Ell I noticed that as well.. seems like after the latest release.
 
Ell
@Mysticial see I don't see the use of that - whats the point in not using classes?
 
@Mysticial is the code of your pi project opensource?
 
@TonyTheLion no
 
ah ok
 
7:58 PM
But people are free to use it for computations as long as they credit Mystical.
 
@Ell Are you asking about why I preallocate memory?
 
@Mysticial Sure, but classes have nothing to do with memory allocation. I mean more as an organizational/encapsulation tool
 
Ell
@Mysticial No I mean why you use free functions & structs instead of a class. they are the same thing but the latter is cleaner imho
 
@Ell Not all problems require or naturally lend themselves to classes.
 
@JimNorton Yeah, only the massive majority of them.
 
Ell
7:59 PM
@JimNorton I know, but why replace classes with structs & free functions when you can use classes?
 
@DeadMG Lightweight structs were good enough. No inheritance needed. There is no resource acquisition in the vast majority of the objects.
 
Well, the pi-cruncher was written in C, I guess.
 

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